Global War on Drugs has Failed

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nitePhyyre
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:23 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Although I am exceedingly uncomfortable with decriminalising things like heroin and meth. Regardless law enforcement should leave users the hell alone and only focus on those who are profiting from the drug trade.
Like Pfizer?
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:33 pm UTC

moiraemachy wrote:Also, something else: I'm not very familiar with the logistics of drug traffic in the US, but if cocaine and marijuana are decriminalized and their use increase, wouldn't it be awful to Mexico?


In the sense that it'd do amazing things to the international drug market, yes. That flow of dollars would dry up pretty fast. However, keep in mind that Mexican drug cartels are responsible for all manner of violence and instability in Mexico. I consider it quite likely that fading influence from the cartels would be a net gain.

Personally, I say, start with Marijuana first, see how that goes. If, as I suspect, it goes swimmingly, whip up a list of drugs in rough order of expected level of difficulty in legalization. Work our way up the list until we find the point where legalization does more harm than good. It's quite possible that some drugs are not practical to legalize, but it's certainly true that the drugs we have banned have widely varying effects, and in many cases, the reasoning for banning drugs wasn't terribly scientific. A review of the system does seem appropriate.

elasto
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:59 am UTC

Another report makes the news:

Illegal drugs are now cheaper and purer globally than at any time over the last 20 years, a report has warned. The International Centre for Science in Drug Policy said its report suggested the war on drugs had failed.

The report, published in the British Medical Journal Open, looked at data from seven international government-funded drug surveillance systems. Its researchers said it was time to consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue.

The seven drug surveillance systems the study looked at had at least 10 years of information on the price and purity of cannabis, cocaine and opiates, including heroin. The report said street prices of drugs had fallen in real terms between 1990 and 2010, while their purity and potency had increased.

In Europe, for example, the average price of opiates and cocaine, adjusted for inflation and purity, decreased by 74% and 51% respectively between 1990 and 2010, the Vancouver-based centre said.

The report also found there had been a substantial increase in most parts of the world in the amount of cocaine, heroin and cannabis seized by law enforcement agencies since 1990.

Most national drug control strategies have focused on law enforcement to curb supply despite calls to explore other approaches, such as decriminalisation and strict legal regulation, it said. It concluded: "These findings suggest that expanding efforts at controlling the global illegal drug market through law enforcement are failing."

Co-author Dr Evan Wood, scientific chairman of the centre, said: "We should look to implement policies that place community health and safety at the forefront of our efforts, and consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue. With the recognition that efforts to reduce drug supply are unlikely to be successful, there is a clear need to scale up addiction treatment and other strategies that can effectively reduce drug-related harm."


link

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addams
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:09 am UTC

elasto wrote:Another report makes the news:

Illegal drugs are now cheaper and purer globally than at any time over the last 20 years, a report has warned. The International Centre for Science in Drug Policy said its report suggested the war on drugs had failed.

The report, published in the British Medical Journal Open, looked at data from seven international government-funded drug surveillance systems. Its researchers said it was time to consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue.

The seven drug surveillance systems the study looked at had at least 10 years of information on the price and purity of cannabis, cocaine and opiates, including heroin. The report said street prices of drugs had fallen in real terms between 1990 and 2010, while their purity and potency had increased.

In Europe, for example, the average price of opiates and cocaine, adjusted for inflation and purity, decreased by 74% and 51% respectively between 1990 and 2010, the Vancouver-based centre said.

The report also found there had been a substantial increase in most parts of the world in the amount of cocaine, heroin and cannabis seized by law enforcement agencies since 1990.

Most national drug control strategies have focused on law enforcement to curb supply despite calls to explore other approaches, such as decriminalisation and strict legal regulation, it said. It concluded: "These findings suggest that expanding efforts at controlling the global illegal drug market through law enforcement are failing."

Co-author Dr Evan Wood, scientific chairman of the centre, said: "We should look to implement policies that place community health and safety at the forefront of our efforts, and consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue. With the recognition that efforts to reduce drug supply are unlikely to be successful, there is a clear need to scale up addiction treatment and other strategies that can effectively reduce drug-related harm."


link

That seems like a sane statement.
I will read it again, later.

Public Health! The Article said Public Health!
I think those are beautiful words.

I took a class one time. Rural Public Health.
My areas of expertise above and beyond what we all had to know:
Emergency Field Medicine
Starvation/Malnutrition
Comparative Psychology.
Post Grad I worked on Art, Science and Religion.

Public Health is such a good idea.
If we can't do it we can OutSource leadership to England or some other place that has Public Health.

Not every individual is required to be Healthy.
It is required that each individual is provided with The Tools.

Someone that knows something about Public Health can explain it.
"We should look to implement policies that place community health and safety at the forefront of our efforts, and consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue.

I liked that article. We always like material that supports our confirmed bias.
I get so hopeful when I read that sort of thing.

It would be nice to have MD's and Nurses Helping people adjust dosages and life needs.
Of course, it would be complicated. How will people that have lived in Fear and Misunderstanding for most if not all of their lives respond to talking to Medical Personal?

Fot the Medical Personal, it will be like the Abortion Issue.
If you can not in good conscious participate, then don't.
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Shivahn
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Shivahn » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:14 am UTC

dii wrote:Now, of course, even with perfect administration, and pure, unadulterated product (or, at the very least, one only adulterated with inert materials) there are of course dangers. No intoxicating substance is ever 100% safe to use. There are always risks involved, even possible risks to third parties. Excessive use can cause psychosis, delusions, violent behaviour, etc. which can be harmful to the user as well as others. Overdoses can happen. Mistakes can be made. But if we're going to look at this rationally, we need to figure out, which option causes the least harm: legalization, decriminalization or criminalization (or something in between, it's a spectrum and so on (Everything is a spectrum these days)).

Cocaine specifically has some cardiac effects which can be dangerous, but I'm not sure how much they are when used in moderation.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:41 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Another report makes the news:

Illegal drugs are now cheaper and purer globally than at any time over the last 20 years, a report has warned. The International Centre for Science in Drug Policy said its report suggested the war on drugs had failed.

The report, published in the British Medical Journal Open, looked at data from seven international government-funded drug surveillance systems. Its researchers said it was time to consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue.

The seven drug surveillance systems the study looked at had at least 10 years of information on the price and purity of cannabis, cocaine and opiates, including heroin. The report said street prices of drugs had fallen in real terms between 1990 and 2010, while their purity and potency had increased.

In Europe, for example, the average price of opiates and cocaine, adjusted for inflation and purity, decreased by 74% and 51% respectively between 1990 and 2010, the Vancouver-based centre said.

The report also found there had been a substantial increase in most parts of the world in the amount of cocaine, heroin and cannabis seized by law enforcement agencies since 1990.

Most national drug control strategies have focused on law enforcement to curb supply despite calls to explore other approaches, such as decriminalisation and strict legal regulation, it said. It concluded: "These findings suggest that expanding efforts at controlling the global illegal drug market through law enforcement are failing."

Co-author Dr Evan Wood, scientific chairman of the centre, said: "We should look to implement policies that place community health and safety at the forefront of our efforts, and consider drug use a public health issue rather than a criminal justice issue. With the recognition that efforts to reduce drug supply are unlikely to be successful, there is a clear need to scale up addiction treatment and other strategies that can effectively reduce drug-related harm."


link


I love the title on that article. "War on illegal drugs failing, medical researchers warn". In other news, the pope is becoming catholic, and bears are slowly coming around to the idea of shitting in the woods.
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moiraemachy
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby moiraemachy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:47 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
moiraemachy wrote:Also, something else: I'm not very familiar with the logistics of drug traffic in the US, but if cocaine and marijuana are decriminalized and their use increase, wouldn't it be awful to Mexico?


In the sense that it'd do amazing things to the international drug market, yes. That flow of dollars would dry up pretty fast. However, keep in mind that Mexican drug cartels are responsible for all manner of violence and instability in Mexico. I consider it quite likely that fading influence from the cartels would be a net gain.


I'm specifically talking about the difference between decriminalization (ie consuming is legal, producing is not) and legalization (everything is fine). My point is that I believe most of the negative externalities of purchasing illegally produced drugs in the US are felt in Mexico.

elasto
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:55 am UTC

moiraemachy wrote:I'm specifically talking about the difference between decriminalization (ie consuming is legal, producing is not) and legalization (everything is fine). My point is that I believe most of the negative externalities of purchasing illegally produced drugs in the US are felt in Mexico.

Depends on how it's decriminalized. Assuming addicts have a legitimate means of acquiring the drugs - eg. in the UK it'd be via the NHS - it should no more have negative externalities in Mexico than oxycontin, morphine or any other abusable prescription drug does.

Licence a set of producers to produce the drugs legally and you effectively outcompete the illegal producers: Even those buying on the street will prefer to get it from the licensed producers because of guarantees of purity and safety etc. No, illegal production/trafficking in/through Mexico etc. wont drop to zero, but it'll come darn close.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Queue » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

From another perspective, it's not the war on Drugs that has failed, because you could win that with enough indescriminate arson. What you've lost is the war against the Human Desire to Get High. I once jokingly suggested that the way to win the war on drugs would be to engineer a drug that has zero *addictive properties, but gets you absolutely boiled.


* Long-term. Biochemistry majors will likely point out that coffee is highly addictive, but doesn't seem to affect your dopaminergic structures in the same was as, say, cocaine.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
moiraemachy wrote:I'm specifically talking about the difference between decriminalization (ie consuming is legal, producing is not) and legalization (everything is fine). My point is that I believe most of the negative externalities of purchasing illegally produced drugs in the US are felt in Mexico.

Depends on how it's decriminalized. Assuming addicts have a legitimate means of acquiring the drugs - eg. in the UK it'd be via the NHS - it should no more have negative externalities in Mexico than oxycontin, morphine or any other abusable prescription drug does.

Licence a set of producers to produce the drugs legally and you effectively outcompete the illegal producers: Even those buying on the street will prefer to get it from the licensed producers because of guarantees of purity and safety etc. No, illegal production/trafficking in/through Mexico etc. wont drop to zero, but it'll come darn close.

yes.
I do believe you have a point.

The number of users may bounce up for a bit when the Forbidden Fruit is no longer forbidden.
Of course, there will always be Home Made stuff.

Beer has people making it at home.
Wine has people making it at home.
Pot has people making it at home.

Opium Poppies are easier and more beautiful than pot.
People will make it at home. Make it and not use it.

I did. I did not know I was growing Opium Poppies.
I thought they were poppies. Pretty. Very pretty.

Mushrooms are gathered by people from the wild.
Some people like to prove how cool and groovy they are.
I know for a Fact a bunch of really smart idiots gathered, prepared and ate mushrooms together, and DIed.

When People have professionals to talk to and professionals to produce and watch quality and dosages for them,
The silliness might become really silly. Like people walking out of Plato's Cave.

It would be so nice to have our people have choices.
Some are going to make poor choices under the best of circumstances.
With compassionate professionals to turn to, the suffering from ignorance and helplessness would by be reduced.

The end to the Global War on Drugs can only be a good thing both for the US and for Mexico.

Law enforcement has been having a wonderful time. What ever will they do with themselves?
They might have to cross train in medical and psych stuff and start doing Protect and Serve.

I would expect a great deal of resistance from The Gangs in Blue.
The way things are now is SO Great for that bunch.

They get to rob, arrest and abuse people.
They get to take, use and sell the spoils of war.

Change would fuck with their way of life.
The end of War would mean change for those guys.
Some people are resistant to change.

Can't blame them. Life is Good!
It is Good to like your Job and a great many of those guys Like their jobs, the way they are today.

I had a personal moment when I changed my mind on Gun and Drug laws.
It was a few weeks ago. I saw Dixon Andrews. I know him. Not well.
I saw him in the parking lot of the Cop Shop. He looked so happy.

He was busy and happy and looked so animated and alive. Good Dixon!
It made me happy to see a person be so happy.

Later I found out what he was so happy about.
He and a crew of nine other special guys were getting paid Double Time.
They were preparing to Rob and Arrest local gardeners. No wonder he was so happy.

I started to wonder about that number that comes with each bust.
The News tells us. "Four hundred thousand dollars worth was seized by law enforcement, today."

They know it is four hundred thousand dollars worth,
because that is what they will make after each man has taken his fill.
Yes. I do belive it is that corupt.

Why? Why do I believe that? Well...Many reasons. One reason is because, I had a friend one time. He was a firefighter.
He was happy as shit. The police are usually the first in. The firefighters were the first in on one Garden. He was a happy man. The way Dixon Andrews was happy. The fire fighters got first choice for a darned change. He was proud and showing off his stash.

The men and women in Uniform are men and women before they get dressed.
They are no better and no worse than the rest of us. The culture within does not support these people in doing what is right.
They are doing The Job. It is good to like your job.

Those people will be your strongest foes in the battle to decriminalize.
It would change their jobs. They like their jobs the way they are!
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Роберт
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Роберт » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Silk Road owner arrested. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/ ... TR20131002
Spoiler:
(Reuters) - U.S. law enforcement authorities raided an Internet site that served as a marketplace for illegal drugs, including heroin and cocaine, and arrested its owner, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said on Wednesday.

The FBI arrested Ross William Ulbricht, known as "Dread Pirate Roberts," in San Francisco on Tuesday, according to court filings. Federal prosecutors charged Ulbricht with one count each of narcotics trafficking conspiracy, computer hacking conspiracy and money laundering conspiracy, according to a court filing.

(Reporting by Emily Flitter; Editing by Gerald E. McCormick)
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oxoiron
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby oxoiron » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:27 pm UTC

At least he has a great alias.
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dii
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby dii » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:43 pm UTC

Queue wrote: I once jokingly suggested that the way to win the war on drugs would be to engineer a drug that has zero *addictive properties, but gets you absolutely boiled.


We already have those, the war still isn't won.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby johnie104 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:10 am UTC

A few months back I watched a documentary The House I Live In that heavily criticizes the war on drugs. Has anyone seen this as well and can they verify the truthfullness of this documentary? I mean, does it do Michael Moore like shenanigans (hyperbole and such)?

Because if what is shown in that documentary is only half true then that, would to me, be an open-shut case against the war on drugs.

Also, can anybody link sources where intelligent people give good arguments against decriminalization? So, no political stuff, but just theoretical "Would society be better with laws against drugs or would it be better when drugs are merely regulated?"
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elasto
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

As far as I can make out, the argument for prohibition is two-fold.

First, there's a belief that any movement away from criminalization will lead to an increase in drug use. Imo, unless we went to full blown legalization with adverts on buses and heroin at supermarket checkouts - and I assume noone here would advocate that - I think this argument is well overblown. Anyone who really wants to try drugs can try them right now; Heck, until this week you could get drugs sent mail-order from Silk Road.

Yes, there might be a slight uptick but most people who'd try post-decriminalization will try when it is criminalized also - and most people wouldn't try under either circumstance because they know it's a stupid risk to take.

This belief is twinned with the misconception that you only have to try a drug once to get hooked - so that any momentary uptick will become permanent. It is very very occasionally true for the very hardest drugs but for the vast majority of people it won't happen - any more than someone receiving morphine as a painkiller in hospital once will get instantly hooked.

The second is a belief that any movement away from criminalization represents implicit approval. But that's nonsense. We don't need to make unprotected sex with strangers illegal to demonstrate our belief that it's stupid, risky behavior. We don't need to make drinking so much alcohol that you pass out and get liver damage illegal to demonstrate our belief that that's stupid, risky behavior. And we don't need to make prescription painkillers illegal to demonstrate that getting hooked on them is stupid, risky behavior. In all cases education and/or addiction clinics are the answer, not prison.

I think the final argument isn't really an argument at all but simply a moral viewpoint: That pleasure for its own sake is immoral - and immoral things should be illegal unless there's a very good reason for them not to be. It's not dissimilar to the belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong. We have the Puritans to thank for that one.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

elasto wrote:This belief is twinned with the misconception that you only have to try a drug once to get hooked - so that any momentary uptick will become permanent. It is very very occasionally true for the very hardest drugs but for the vast majority of people it won't happen - any more than someone receiving morphine as a painkiller in hospital once will get instantly hooked.
The addiction rate for drugs like like cocaine, crack, and meth are 8%, 13%, and 15%, respectively. The heroin/opiate addiction rate is nearly 50%.

elasto wrote:The second is a belief that any movement away from criminalization represents implicit approval. But that's nonsense. We don't need to make unprotected sex with strangers illegal to demonstrate our belief that it's stupid, risky behavior. We don't need to make drinking so much alcohol that you pass out and get liver damage illegal to demonstrate our belief that that's stupid, risky behavior. And we don't need to make prescription painkillers illegal to demonstrate that getting hooked on them is stupid, risky behavior. In all cases education and/or addiction clinics are the answer, not prison.
This is very unfair to people who get addicted to painkillers. There is a good chunk of them that receive an injury, put their back out, have an operation, etc, then get powerful painkillers for while they heal. Guess what? They'll be addicted once their prescription runs out. I don't think it's fair to call "trusting your doctor" "stupid, risky behaviour".
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

You don't become great by trying to be great. You become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard you become great in the process.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:The addiction rate for drugs like like cocaine, crack, and meth are 8%, 13%, and 15%, respectively. The heroin/opiate addiction rate is nearly 50%.

From one dose? Got any citation on that?

This is very unfair to people who get addicted to painkillers. There is a good chunk of them that receive an injury, put their back out, have an operation, etc, then get powerful painkillers for while they heal. Guess what? They'll be addicted once their prescription runs out. I don't think it's fair to call "trusting your doctor" "stupid, risky behaviour".

Feel free to correct me, but my understanding of the pharmacology of painkillers is that if you are in genuine pain, the probability of physical addiction goes way down. It's not impossible, obviously, but for the vast majority of people, taking strong painkillers for acute pain is relatively risk-free. Obviously managing long-term chronic pain is more problematic, since on any given day you may take more than you actually need and the probability of addiction correspondingly rises.

Anyhow, it's taking painkillers unnecessarily that I was describing as stupid and risky - for example lying to your doctor that you're in more pain than you are. Doing so is not illegal so far as I know - and nor do I think it should be. In all cases I mentioned I think education and addiction clinics should be the first and last ports of call, not throwing people in jail.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby sigsfried » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

I know my case is only one so not useful for statistical analysis, but I was on cocodamol for a month, when I changed painkiller I had some physical symptoms of withdrawal without any desire to take more tablets. The GP said this wasn't unusual, and had warned me of the likely impact of switching painkillers so my situation certainly wasn't unique.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:The addiction rate for drugs like like cocaine, crack, and meth are 8%, 13%, and 15%, respectively. The heroin/opiate addiction rate is nearly 50%.

From one dose? Got any citation on that?
It was from a documentary I saw a couple of years ago. It defined the rates as showing signs of addiction one year from the first use. 'Signs of addiction' is
Drug addiction is a state of periodic or chronic intoxication produced by the repeated consumption of a drug (natural or synthetic). Its characteristics include: (i) an overpowering desire or need (compulsion) to continue taking the drug and to obtain it by any means; (ii) a tendency to increase the dose; (iii) a psychic (psychological) and generally a physical dependence on the effects of the drug; and (iv) detrimental effects on the individual and on society.


I don't have time to dig up the find some citations right now, sorry.
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

You don't become great by trying to be great. You become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard you become great in the process.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby cphite » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

elasto wrote:As far as I can make out, the argument for prohibition is two-fold.

First, there's a belief that any movement away from criminalization will lead to an increase in drug use. Imo, unless we went to full blown legalization with adverts on buses and heroin at supermarket checkouts - and I assume noone here would advocate that - I think this argument is well overblown. Anyone who really wants to try drugs can try them right now; Heck, until this week you could get drugs sent mail-order from Silk Road.


I agree that that argument is well overblown, but frankly even if it isn't overblown, I don't see it as being a valid argument in the first place. I believe that the side-effects of the war on drugs, in the forms of violence and other criminal activity, far outweigh the effects of drug use, even widespread drug use.

Every years thousands of people fall victim to violent crime, up to and including murder as part of illegal drug trade. Billions of dollars are lost in the form of theft to support drug addiction. Tens of billions more are spent by governments to fight illegal drug trading. Drugs are actually more dangerous as a result of the war on drugs, as criminal groups look to make drugs cheaper (typically by cutting them with dangerous materials) or more addictive (because addicts are obviously more likely to go to great lengths to get drugs).

Yes, there might be a slight uptick but most people who'd try post-decriminalization will try when it is criminalized also - and most people wouldn't try under either circumstance because they know it's a stupid risk to take.

This belief is twinned with the misconception that you only have to try a drug once to get hooked - so that any momentary uptick will become permanent. It is very very occasionally true for the very hardest drugs but for the vast majority of people it won't happen - any more than someone receiving morphine as a painkiller in hospital once will get instantly hooked.


I suspect that if drugs were legal (or at the very least, decriminalized) that people would be far more likely to stick to relatively safer drugs in the first place. A lot of the more dangerous and more addictive drugs out there are out there because they're cheaper to mass produce, and/or because they're more addictive and therefore far more incentive for the user to do whatever it takes to get more.

The fact that drugs are illegal makes them much more expensive. Remove that, and the price will come down significantly. Once prices are down, I'd wager you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone willing to even try something like crack if they can get cocaine freely and at a reasonable price. Crack exists because it's (relatively) cheap and because it's horribly addictive.

The second is a belief that any movement away from criminalization represents implicit approval. But that's nonsense. We don't need to make unprotected sex with strangers illegal to demonstrate our belief that it's stupid, risky behavior. We don't need to make drinking so much alcohol that you pass out and get liver damage illegal to demonstrate our belief that that's stupid, risky behavior. And we don't need to make prescription painkillers illegal to demonstrate that getting hooked on them is stupid, risky behavior. In all cases education and/or addiction clinics are the answer, not prison.


Exactly. It would be far more cost effective to educate people about the effects of drugs and even treat them for ill-effects of drugs, than to fight this pointless and futile war on drugs. We spend tens of billions every year enforcing drug laws; we spend tens of billions more cleaning up the mess in terms of violence, theft, and other crimes that are a side-effect of the drug trade.

I think the final argument isn't really an argument at all but simply a moral viewpoint: That pleasure for its own sake is immoral - and immoral things should be illegal unless there's a very good reason for them not to be. It's not dissimilar to the belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong. We have the Puritans to thank for that one.


But as with anything else, if people want to do something they're going to do it. We tried banning alcohol and look what happened - people kept right on drinking. The only difference is that it cost more, and that it empowered criminal organizations. The exact same thing is happening with drugs, only bigger and broader. The smart move would be to just stop.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:13 am UTC

I agree.
We can do so much better.

The War on Drugs is stupid.
It sure does function like a War.

The winners get the Spoils of War.
The losers go to POW camps.

The losers need someone to remember the POW's.
The POW's are often the products of the War.

That is not an easy population to work with.
Difficult or not, these are our people and this stupid policy is making us all unhappy.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:02 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
elasto wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:The addiction rate for drugs like like cocaine, crack, and meth are 8%, 13%, and 15%, respectively. The heroin/opiate addiction rate is nearly 50%.

From one dose? Got any citation on that?
It was from a documentary I saw a couple of years ago. It defined the rates as showing signs of addiction one year from the first use. 'Signs of addiction' is
Drug addiction is a state of periodic or chronic intoxication produced by the repeated consumption of a drug (natural or synthetic). Its characteristics include: (i) an overpowering desire or need (compulsion) to continue taking the drug and to obtain it by any means; (ii) a tendency to increase the dose; (iii) a psychic (psychological) and generally a physical dependence on the effects of the drug; and (iv) detrimental effects on the individual and on society.


I don't have time to dig up the find some citations right now, sorry.


Waaaaaait. Crack really is more addictive than cocaine?

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby dii » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:45 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Waaaaaait. Crack really is more addictive than cocaine?


Hard to say, really. How do you measure "addictiveness"? Traditionally they use lab rats and such, but I'm not sure if it's possible to teach rats to smoke crack...

Crack is really just poor quality freebase cocaine, so there's no real point in comparing them as substances. It might be more relevant to compare ROA's, ie. smoking (vaporizing, really) vs. intranasal or intravenous use. I think it's safe to assume that smoking (vaporizing, really) is somewhat more addictive than intranasal use, but I'm not at all sure about intravenous.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Nordic Einar » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:49 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
elasto wrote:This belief is twinned with the misconception that you only have to try a drug once to get hooked - so that any momentary uptick will become permanent. It is very very occasionally true for the very hardest drugs but for the vast majority of people it won't happen - any more than someone receiving morphine as a painkiller in hospital once will get instantly hooked.
The addiction rate for drugs like like cocaine, crack, and meth are 8%, 13%, and 15%, respectively. The heroin/opiate addiction rate is nearly 50%.


The NIH disagrees with you.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/heroin

In 2011, 4.2 million Americans aged 12 or older (or 1.6 percent) had used heroin at least once in their lives. It is estimated that about 23 percent of individuals who use heroin become dependent on it.


There is a further growing body of research that suggests environment plays a huge role in rates of addiction which may explain the differences in addiction rate between Cocaine and Crack, considering they are chemically nearly identical.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:31 am UTC

Addition is an uninteresting area of study, to me.

The way I learned it:
There are two kinds of addiction.

Physical and Psychological.
Psychological Additions are very, very difficult.

Physical additions are easy.
When compared to psychological addictions.

What is a more harmful addition?
To be addicted to ...umm something dangerous to everyone, yet legal and possibly encouraged.
Racing? Racing in sail boats! There is an addiction!

Racing sail boats can kill everyone in the family.
Racing sail boats can use more money than God has on hand.
Racing sail boats will engage The Soul.

That is a psychological addiction that has physical symptoms.

Compare that to drugs.
Drug addictions have an instant effect on some people the way sail boats do on other people.

Yes. If you can afford your addiction then it should be none of our affair.
If you have to rob the US Treasury to keep up with your sail boat addiction we might get miffed at you.
(Where the money comes from for that kind of an addiction might be private.)

Is that why we need so many Secrets in the US security agencies?
Are they robbing the US Treasury to feed Psychological addictions?

Yes. It does seem obvious, now. right?

Physical Addictions are easier. Alcohol withdrawal is very dangerous.

But; For most other addictions a few days of not feeling well, gets things back in order.
I know first hand. I did not know I was addicted. It was only a physical addiction.

I was ill for a few days. I was not feeling well, anyway.
I had been hospitalized after pain meds and an injury that did not heal.

What seemed like forever passed. Then I did not need the pain meds, anymore.
I was so ill. I sat in the sun and cried. A woman that worked for the state asked me why I was crying.

She told me I was going through withdrawals. She knew. I did not know.
I had been on a Morphine drip. Of course, I was physically addicted.
It was no big deal. It was not as bad as The Flu and did not last as long.

That woman got me some sorbet and laughed at me.
How horrible if she had arrested me and yelled at me.

I think I would like us to treat one another the way we like to be treated.
But; It is not easy. Some addicts don't sit in the sun crying.

Some addicts won't take the sorbet.
Some addicts don't like being laughed at.

Besides; Have you spoken to people that have used Meth?
That is a fucked up drug. Is it the drug? We Need Studies!

We can not study things that are illegal.
Cocaine is hard on people. Meth is harder.

If we give people cocaine will they stop wanting Meth? It Is A Good Study Question.
Cocaine is better for people. It is better for the nation. It is better for the world.

Cocaine is cheep for the government to buy.
Spoiler:
fuck. The government could turn a profit and the users would think that the drug was being given away.

Medical and government cocaine is cheep.
$10.00 for a bunch.

Same with Morphine.


People are always going to do weird stuff.
I knew two men that were addicted to Filth.
That is a psychological addiction.

Clean, well educated and well behaved Heroin addicts have been very productive and delightful citizens.
Non drinking, non smoking, non drug users can be eight shades of Creepy, unhealthy, and dangerous to others.

What we have is POW camps.
There are innocent men and women in those camps.

There are guilty, undereducated, dangerous, brain damaged people in there, too.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Qaanol » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:26 am UTC

Uruguay just passed a law to legalize marijuana. Specifically, to legalize growing and selling marijuana, because using it was already legal.

BBC
CNN International
Al Jazeera English
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:42 am UTC

That is amazing.
There seems to be more on the horizon.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23551902

Hey! It could happen! Some level of sanity could settle down around the people of the world.
The fear might lighten up. That would be great!

It seems that the strangle hold of threats and fear of the White House might be loosening. Good.

What is up with The Pope? Is he a lone voice or is he addressing something different.
Drug addiction causes problems in people's lives. Going to jail is a real problem.

To allow the people to live without fear is a good thing.
People are still going to do stupid stuff. "Give them an inch and they will take a mile."

After the people get used to freedom, they will settle down.
We are writing about Pot, after all. That bunch is fairly settled already.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:56 pm UTC

Qaanol wrote:Uruguay just passed a law to legalize marijuana. Specifically, to legalize growing and selling marijuana, because using it was already legal.

The UN says this violates international law and endangers young people. Because fuck self-governance.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:50 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Qaanol wrote:Uruguay just passed a law to legalize marijuana. Specifically, to legalize growing and selling marijuana, because using it was already legal.

The UN says this violates international law and endangers young people. Because fuck self-governance.

umm. I would like to suggest someone bring foreword the endangerment of the persons inside US prisons.
Those are, sometimes, at risk people. What does the UN WatchDog want?

Who's WatchDog is it? The United Nations? oh. Who is united?
Maybe, I don't understand. The people want to live and love and live without fear in their Gardens?
There is a powerful organization that thinks that is a bad idea? Those People will do bad things?

Do The People do bad things now? Who?
oh! Oh! I know about some bad things that happen because Pot is illegal.
Sometimes people talk to me. Even when Pot is legal, people can convince each other there is a fortune to be made.

I swear! It is the same human story. This part of the world attracts people that believe in sidewalks paved in Gold.
I have spoken to young people that have put themselves in some very stange positions.

The TV tells people 500,000 dollars worth of Pot was taken from one grow site.
They do the math and plant a crop. Who to sell it to becomes a problem.

The professionals are growing commercial valuable Pot.
The homegrown stuff is, just, that. Homegrown.

At least that is what I think is going on.
I think Grapes become wine in those big silver tanks, too.

One young man spoke to me. It was sad and a little infuriating.
He was like a Miner 1849er.
He had done hard labor in socially dangerous conditions and could have gone to jail for what he was doing and he was upset at the Marketing Guy!

They Mined out a bit of Pot. Did not get Busted and can't sell it.
oh! Dear God! What does that look like a recipe for?

Who wants imported Pot? (fuck)
Who is the worlds biggest exporter of Pot?
The US? Why not?

It seems we have tons of the stuff.
The relaxation of the international drug laws?

Is the world playing into the hands of the Americans, again?

The War on Drugs is over. Who won?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:32 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Qaanol wrote:Uruguay just passed a law to legalize marijuana. Specifically, to legalize growing and selling marijuana, because using it was already legal.

The UN says this violates international law and endangers young people. Because fuck self-governance.


The UN is kind of a joke at this point...they're busy doing stuff like this, but there's a dozen more pressing issues on which they'll take essentially no action because nobody can agree on crap.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:19 pm UTC

addams wrote:The War on Drugs is over. Who won?
While one side has already clearly won, unfortunately the war isn't over.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby addams » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:31 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
addams wrote:The War on Drugs is over. Who won?
While one side has already clearly won, unfortunately the war isn't over.


What would the end of war be like?
The way I learned it, there is a lot of clean up to be done at the end of a war.

Please! Let the war end!
Then we can all get busy with clean up.

There is so much more to be done by so many during clean up.
Many people enjoy the activities. Sure; People get tired.

I can tell you for a fact, some people are tired of war.
Some people like the war a lot. It is a profitable undertaking.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:56 pm UTC

Heroin addicts will be given supplies to inject in specially designated “shooting galleries” under radical plans to tackle drug-related crime in Durham.

The police force is set to become the first in England to implement an approach pioneered in Switzerland and credited with achieving positive results in a number of European countries but unlikely to attract much domestic political support.

Under the plans, Durham constabulary, which was last week rated the best in England, would buy diamorphine – pharmaceutical heroin – to give to addicts, which they could inject twice a day in supervised facilities.

Ron Hogg, Durham’s police, crime and victims’ commissioner, said the UK was failing on drugs and desperately needed to try alternative approaches.

“If we look at the UK’s position, we have got some of the highest levels of heroin abuse in Europe, also of cocaine use and [drug-related] deaths,” said Hogg. “Someone’s got to step up to the mark and do something a little bit different.”

A part government-funded pilot scheme in Darlington, London and Brighton involving 127 chronic addicts found that giving them heroin significantly reduced both their drug usage and crime.

In December, the government’s expert drug advisers suggested introducing heroin-assisted treatment after statistics showed deaths from the drug in England and Wales have soared recently.

But the Home Office rejected the recommendation from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, saying it had “no plans to introduce drug consumption rooms”.

Hogg, who spent 30 years as a police officer, said: “When I first joined [the police] I was part of the ‘best [to] lock them up brigade’, but you observe it doesn’t work. “Even now I am still going out more than 30 years later with police officers on raids we were doing in 1978. My experience has certainly shaped my thinking.

“Sadly, none of the political parties is up for change. Our whole drugs legislation should be fundamentally reviewed. I have been there to see the bodies with needles sticking out, the human despair.

“It will actually pay in the long-term. The whole idea is to get people into recovery and change their lifestyle.”

Hogg claimed that politicians were out of step with the public, who realise the current policy is not working.

I wonder which political party will be brave enough to stick their neck out. Right now our populations seem to have swung in a fear-based/authoritarian direction in their voting patterns, so it probably won't be any time soon, but the pendulum will eventually swing back towards a libertarian approach, and maybe that will be the time for common sense towards drugs to prevail.

link

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Dauric » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I wonder which political party will be brave enough to stick their neck out. Right now our populations seem to have swung in a fear-based/authoritarian direction in their voting patterns, so it probably won't be any time soon, but the pendulum will eventually swing back towards a libertarian approach, and maybe that will be the time for common sense towards drugs to prevail.

link


I'm not sure this actually qualifies as a libertarian approach. A true libertarian approach decriminalizes the drug and lets people buy as much as they want of whatever they want and use it in the privacy of their own home. The approach in the article involves 1) a government (or government contractor) supervised facility, and 2) specific types and quantities of substance. It's not a true laissez-faire approach, it's actually quite 'Big-Government', but the difference is on the idea of treatment rather than punishment.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby elasto » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:31 pm UTC

Oh, sure, I don't imagine politicians will ever go full-on libertarian in regards to heroin specifically, and nor should they imo.

My reference to a more libertarian approach was more in regards to drug use in general. To pick a couple of examples at random, I think that ecstasy and cannabis should be regulated roughly the same as alcohol and nicotine. I think that the public already broadly agree and I hope that politicians eventually will too.

(The UK has actually gone in the opposite direction in recent times though; We have some of the most restrictive drug laws in the world - to the extent that we operate a whitelist rather than a blacklist unlike everyone else: Any newly discovered psychoactive substance is automatically illegal.)

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby jseah » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:32 am UTC

Coming from Singapore, I'd say sg has a more restrictive stance.

Mandatory death penalty for smuggling > 15g of drugs. Can't get any worse than that.

It works though, at the cost of ~130 executions a year. (Iirc Singapore's drug abuse rate is something like 4k in a population of 5 million)
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Liri » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:42 am UTC

Oh holy shit I read kg not g at first.

Duterte's Philippines is probably worse now, though.
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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby djangochained » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:29 am UTC

Yea it does depend on the region, in Singapore there is practically no drugs now.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Mutex » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:54 am UTC

Personally I'd much rather have drug addicts than people being put to death for drug related crimes.

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Re: Global War on Drugs has Failed

Postby Zamfir » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:28 pm UTC

jseah wrote:Coming from Singapore, I'd say sg has a more restrictive stance.

Mandatory death penalty for smuggling > 15g of drugs. Can't get any worse than that.

It works though, at the cost of ~130 executions a year. (Iirc Singapore's drug abuse rate is something like 4k in a population of 5 million)

I thought the execution peak was in the 90s? From what I hear, drugs in Singapore are not that much harder to get than in many other countries. More expensive than in most of Europe, but cheaper than Australia, for example. Does not suggest that the dealer or traffickers are very worried about their lives.Add in drug-fueled parties abroad, and 4,000 "abusers" sounds rather low, unless they apply a definition of abuse that has room for a lot of non-abusive users.

Isn't this more a case where the statistics are strongly skewed by scared respondents?


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