Google discontinuing support for old browsers

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Where's the labour cost if you ask the users to upgrade the browsers themselves? Then any labour cost is reduced to about 5 minutes per person. Are simple things like browser upgrades really put on IT?


You're assuming that users have administrator rights to the computers they work on.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Thirty-one » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:43 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Think it's stupid? Fine, but if you've ever worked in a large corporation you'd understand why you do not want some of these people installing whatever they want.


Or gone to a school where these people's crap littered the desktop and slowed everything down.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

Thirty-one wrote:
Hawknc wrote:Think it's stupid? Fine, but if you've ever worked in a large corporation you'd understand why you do not want some of these people installing whatever they want.


Or gone to a school where these people's crap littered the desktop and slowed everything down.


Or if they get Spear-Phished and get a keylogger installed because your user accounts have installation privileges.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Where's the labour cost if you ask the users to upgrade the browsers themselves? Then any labour cost is reduced to about 5 minutes per person. Are simple things like browser upgrades really put on IT?

As noted, many MANY companies do not allow their workers admin access required to do that (for Internet Explorer - Firefox Portable can do it, but any user savvy enough to install that probably doesn't much care what the official browser is). Even if they did, it could be an extremely bad idea to allow them to update their browsers if it happens to break any of the apps they use, since IT would have to roll them back to the version that works, which takes more time and effort than a system-wide browser upgrade.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:50 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Translucent windows doesn't really address any business needs.

Transluscent windows are everything. In all seriousness though, upgrades are generally a good idea if only for compatibility purposes. IE 6 doesn't work with any website employing moderately modern features.

But the benefit to a given company of modern features on a website may be completely irrelevant when compared to the importance of continued compatibility with their in-house software.

Also, while for some jobs, the probability of overlap between decent amount of IT skill and whatever their primary job function is decently high, for others, there's really not any particular correlation. HR, for example, does not tend to be full of IT-minded people, and your priority for an HR manager should be someone with people skills, not someone who can support Outlook issues or questions. Obviously.

Also, also, even if a person with that skillset is available, it may not be economically practical or feasible to hire them, as they may be commanding a higher wage than someone who isn't IT savvy, but can still do the job. Also, even if you could afford that person... hiring people who are overqualified increases the risk that they'll leave for something that commands more of their skills and a higher wage. Turnover in jobs is terrible, from a company's point of view.

All this aside... I would still rather see there be less restriction on downloading an additional browser. Sure, keep your IE6 that you need for some financial tool or other and require that be a user's default, but allow someone to download Chrome in addition, or whatever the case may be.

But again, that's a decision on the trade-off between how much having another browser may increase some users' efficiency vs how much more likely it makes it that they're doing non-job-related things.

I guess my feeling: for a company relying both on Google's products *and* their own proprietary stuff they can't get off IE6 or the like, this could be a bit awkward, but I for one am pretty much in favour of adding some impetus in the other direction, to get people moving forward with newer software technologies. Because while it's nice that my father can still make a living coding in Fortran, I have had enough of projects that require figuring out what the hell someone intended a dozen or more years ago, and trying to incorporate that into something new, replace its functionality or just make enhancements on it.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:52 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I'm kind of surprised that people still develop in-house applications though.


It's not that surprising really. There's very few commercial applications that do what -every- customer wants.

For example I deal with -lots- of files, tens of thousands of print-resolution legal-page documents, with any particular process at any one time. I have a hard time finding software that is robust enough to handle what I need it to (a small memory leak error that might go unnoticed in other applications compounds exponentially in what I do), and even a lot of document management software has a lot of bells and whistles that we never use, but will choke on the raw quantities of data that we push around here. Pretty much every software I have ever used for work will routinely crash at one point or another because of some minor error that recursion made major.

It's been tempting to make the effort to write my own DM software. I know I have the ability (again, I just want simple access/retrieval with one-point admin: IE anyone with the "Admin" checkbox gets read/write, everyone else just gets read, across the board), and if I wrote the software I'd be able to debug and reinstall a patch in minutes or hours instead of months...

.. but I'm not paid enough to do that, so I muddle along setting up and running smaller batches, arguing on the internet or working on personal projects while the batch runs, then set up another batch. Rinse, repeat.

However if I was being paid really good money for what I do I might just be arsed to spend the time (and time at home) build a simple Land Title oriented records program and go through all that bother.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby bittyx » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:02 pm UTC

I agree with the general sentiment that the companies use software as a tool, and if they lose more money on training and upgrades etc. than they would gain, it's understandable why they still use IE6 - assuming, of course, it's secure enough for their purposes. Companies usually work to make money, so it makes sense for them not to lose money just so they could have a better browser. And this is coming from a (mainly) web developer who is royally annoyed at people using old non-standards-compliant browsers when they have the choice to. The thing is, they don't always have that choice.

However, to argue sourmilk's perspective, I think you're all being a bit patronizing, not only to sourmilk, but towards the actual people who you assume can't be bothered to learn a new user interface. I realize that not everybody is tech-savvy - but you are saying that someone who is capable and knowledgeable enough to be a really important part of a company is not able to learn to use a more modern browser. Now that's just silly - in my experience, anyone with an average intelligence can figure out how to use a new tool (be it new software, new hardware, or anything else). The people you mention, with such value to their companies, are surely at least capable enough to figure such stuff out. It's not like you're trying to make, I don't know, a lawyer or something, understand string theory in order to do their job. They basically have to click on a different part of the screen or a different menu or something. Sure, it might take a few days or weeks to get completely used to the new interface, but it's hardly something that an average person can't learn fairly quickly.

A few years ago, I remember the national health system was switching from an old paper-archive-based system to a computer system, I went to visit the doctor. I started chatting with the nurse who admits patients (she's worked there since I was like 6 years old, so I kinda know her), and I remember she was really annoyed at having to switch to using a computer. I mean seriously - it was faster for her to find my medical records in a drawer in a cabinet (there's a *lot* of cabinets there), than to type my name and national ID number into an input box on her computer. I've never seen the software before, and as soon as I saw the interface, it was pretty obvious where you should type what, like, there was a big box labeled "National ID", etc. - it would take me approximately 5 seconds from seeing the software for the first time, to finding my medical records. Now I do consider myself an advanced computer user, but surely an average person could do it in, I don't know, 20 seconds? The fact that she *couldn't* doesn't mean that she is mentally unable to figure it out - she just *doesn't want to*. And when an employee *doesn't want to* do something, that's a problem with them being stubborn, and not *wanting* to adapt to new working conditions (as opposed to not *being able* to).

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:14 pm UTC

@bittyx I'm betting some of this cynicism, such as it may seem, derives from working in IT in support positions. I agree with a lot of what's posted, as someone who's done both hardware and software support, and seen many, many users and their reactions to new programs, tools, etc.

It's not condescension to note that otherwise intelligent people will, with a non-trivial degree of frequency, have very clear barriers or sort of innately willed helplessness in the face of technology. There's more than one kind of intelligence, and it's not worth the time/money/effort to try to coach some people past this stuff, honestly.

It's probably, after all, not worth my company's money to try to train me in a leadership position, and that's not because I'm unintelligent or even asocial. :)
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to. My mother was looking through a bunch of cables in a box for a camera and needed to find the AC-DC adapter. She said she didn't know how to find the cable and asked me to. I told her that of course she was able of finding the proper cable: you jut need to compare the shape of one of of the cable to the shape of the receiving end of the other cable.

There are baby toys that involve matching shapes like that. The problem isn't that people can't use technology, it's that they refuse to. I'm pretty sure that "not wanting to do your job" is grounds for a sacking.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:23 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to


And this is an insult to the people who have spent the last 4 pages comming up with reasons why users can't upgrade to new technology.

I would suggest addressing the points that have been brought up since your last post. If you are incapable with keeping up with this conversation, then ask questions. Ask people to clarify their points. But don't ignore them like you're doing right now. And if you're asking clarifying questions, don't assume you're in the right until the end of the debate.

EDIT: And also, you just called these people less intelligent than toddlers. I would recommend against insulting the other side of this party.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:There are baby toys that involve matching shapes like that. The problem isn't that people can't use technology, it's that they refuse to. I'm pretty sure that "not wanting to do your job" is grounds for a sacking.

Two points here:
1) Everyone I've ever known has at least one part of their job they don't actually want to do. Even when in jobs they like. The idea that people 100% fit into every job they have is kind of naive and idealistic.
2) It's still not economically helpful for a company to fire people (at least if the position itself is one they still need filled) in the majority of cases.

Also, it may be that some of these people really *can* adapt, but it'll take them a good while to figure things out. If their output decreases, we have to measure what that means to the company for its total decrease in productivity vs what potential increases in productivity could be had by upgrading.

And y'know what? Even if there are potential increases in productivity by upgrading on specific programs, in many cases people won't use them, simply because they are new. Sometimes this is true even if folks are trained on them. Training, again, of course, is also money and more productivity down the drain.

There's a lot of built in inertia in various business processes. Being in a software development job, we spend a *lot* of time trying to make things more efficient without having to change end user processes because of the inefficiency in having to do new trainings.

Bottom line: many things that make sense for individual users make no sense at all for a company.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:28 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote: I'm pretty sure that "not wanting to do your job" is grounds for a sacking.


It's not "Not wanting to do their job" that's the main issue. Consider that most people who have the most problems with technology are in their 60's. (generally). Before the early to mid 1990s or so, before the computer became a standard piece of equipment in every office, when you started your career, you learned how to do your job and that was it. Occasionally a new piece of technology may have come out here or there, but it was a once-a-decade thing. They've never had to be rapidly adaptable, or work in an environment where it was necessary to remain feasible as a business. They want to do their job, but they want to do their job as they've learned to do it all their careers, as they were told it would be all their adolescence, as their parents did theirs all their lives.

People 30-something and younger have grown up with computers, we've adapted to constant technology changes as a matter of course, but it's a completely different culture.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to


And this is an insult to the people who have spent the last 4 pages comming up with reasons why users can't upgrade to new technology.

It wasn't addressed to the people who had legitimate reasons not to upgrade.

sandry wrote:1) Everyone I've ever known has at least one part of their job they don't actually want to do. Even when in jobs they like. The idea that people 100% fit into every job they have is kind of naive and idealistic.

The implication was that they didn't do their job because they didn't want to.

Training, again, of course, is also money and more productivity down the drain.

I still don't understand why users should have to be trained in every upgrade. Isn't the software intuitive? Usually it's just that a button changed location.

Dauric wrote:It's not "Not wanting to do their job" that's the main issue. Consider that most people who have the most problems with technology are in their 60's. (generally). Before the early to mid 1990s or so, before the computer became a standard piece of equipment in every office, when you started your career, you learned how to do your job and that was it. Occasionally a new piece of technology may have come out here or there, but it was a once-a-decade thing. They've never had to be rapidly adaptable, or work in an environment where it was necessary to remain feasible as a business. They want to do their job, but they want to do their job as they've learned to do it all their careers, as they were told it would be all their adolescence, as their parents did theirs all their lives.

People 30-something and younger have grown up with computers, we've adapted to constant technology changes as a matter of course, but it's a completely different culture.

Being 60 isn't an excuse for not being willing to read the menu options.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:37 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Sandry wrote:1) Everyone I've ever known has at least one part of their job they don't actually want to do. Even when in jobs they like. The idea that people 100% fit into every job they have is kind of naive and idealistic.

The implication was that they didn't do their job because they didn't want to.

Training, again, of course, is also money and more productivity down the drain.

I still don't understand why users should have to be trained in every upgrade. Isn't the software intuitive? Usually it's just that a button changed location.

Dauric wrote:It's not "Not wanting to do their job" that's the main issue. Consider that most people who have the most problems with technology are in their 60's. (generally). Before the early to mid 1990s or so, before the computer became a standard piece of equipment in every office, when you started your career, you learned how to do your job and that was it. Occasionally a new piece of technology may have come out here or there, but it was a once-a-decade thing. They've never had to be rapidly adaptable, or work in an environment where it was necessary to remain feasible as a business. They want to do their job, but they want to do their job as they've learned to do it all their careers, as they were told it would be all their adolescence, as their parents did theirs all their lives.

People 30-something and younger have grown up with computers, we've adapted to constant technology changes as a matter of course, but it's a completely different culture.

Being 60 isn't an excuse for not being willing to read the menu options.

[blunt]I think you're being flippantly dismissive without having much experience in working with people in a real corporate environment.[/blunt]

I haven't met many people who didn't want to do their job. I just have met a lot of people who have a lot lower threshold of feeling annoyed and helpless in the face of change than I do.

The vast majority of corporate America that I have run into does not have brains that are wired like those of many of us on the forum here. Natural inquisitiveness is not running rampant in your average desk jockey. If they don't know what's going on, I have seen these people verbally ask for help rather than studying the matter in any real depth, time after time.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:40 pm UTC

Sandry wrote:[blunt]I think you're being flippantly dismissive without having much experience in working with people in a real corporate environment.[/blunt]

That wasn't a statement that required "blunt" tags. It was a perfectly appropriate and inoffensive way of expressing your opinion.
If they don't know what's going on, I have seen these people verbally ask for help rather than studying the matter in any real depth, time after time.

These seems like a problem: shouldn't they be instructed to look into matters themselves first?
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:42 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:These seems like a problem: shouldn't they be instructed to look into matters themselves first?

Man, I have tried. If you find a way to convince the average person to do this, I would be eternally grateful. :)
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby jules.LT » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:42 pm UTC

sourmilk wrote:It wasn't addressed to the people who had legitimate reasons not to upgrade.

There is always a cost to change, and therefore a legitimate reason not to.
The question is whether it's worth the time/effort/risk/cost.
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Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

Sandry wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:These seems like a problem: shouldn't they be instructed to look into matters themselves first?

Man, I have tried. If you find a way to convince the average person to do this, I would be eternally grateful. :)


How about "stop bothering IT with inane questions or you're fired."

Jules.it wrote:There is always a cost to change, and therefore a legitimate reason not to.
The question is whether it's worth the time/effort/risk/cost.

Isn't "taking 30 seconds to look at the new menu options" a negligible cost?
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby jules.LT » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:52 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Jules.it wrote:There is always a cost to change, and therefore a legitimate reason not to.
The question is whether it's worth the time/effort/risk/cost.

Isn't "taking 30 seconds to look at the new menu options" a negligible cost?

Haven't you read all those posts telling you how not everyone is used to constant change as our generation (and especially this forum's population) is?
If someone is doing his job well and changing his software would make a big dent in his productivity for a while, you don't fire the guy. You just don't change the software before it's absolutely necessary.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:53 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Sandry wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:These seems like a problem: shouldn't they be instructed to look into matters themselves first?

Man, I have tried. If you find a way to convince the average person to do this, I would be eternally grateful. :)


How about "stop bothering IT with inane questions or you're fired."

Jules.it wrote:There is always a cost to change, and therefore a legitimate reason not to.
The question is whether it's worth the time/effort/risk/cost.

Isn't "taking 30 seconds to look at the new menu options" a negligible cost?

Firing people is really not a good answer. Consider that statements about how training essentially equates to throwing money in the garbage have been made repeatedly. Now consider having to train new people. Onboarding someone new typically decreases the productivity of one of the people who already know what they are doing to about zero, plus of course the new person will be paid but not contributing during that time period. Also there's the cost of making due with inefficiencies while that position is not filled, AND really importantly, there's a huge degradation of morale amongst the rest of the working group while they have to cover for someone who was fired. Oh, and people there might have liked that person as well (if you're firing them for a lack of tech savvy, it's not likely something the majority of their coworkers were holding against them). More decreased morale.

Double bonus: the more people you lose, the less effectively you can recover from that situation, plus the more people still there want to leave due to the added responsibilities/stress. Seriously, becoming shorthanded is *terrible*.

Also, as to why people in general need to be trained:
1) If they can say they don't know how to do something, they can't be held accountable for it.
2) Presumably we're giving these people tasks that actually have significance, not make work. We therefore want them to do it correctly, and we don't want to hire people to independently verify, because of course again that's pissing money down a drain.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:56 pm UTC

But if you start firing people, doesn't that set a precedent in which people won't waste ITs time, thus increasing the net efficiency of the company? You don't just fire people so you can hire new ones that are better at their job, you fire people so that others will become better at the jobs they have.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Eseell » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:58 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:But if you start firing people, doesn't that set a precedent in which people won't waste ITs time, thus increasing the net efficiency of the company? You don't just fire people so you can hire new ones that are better at their job, you fire people so that others will become better at the jobs they have.

It also sets the precedent that you're willing to fire people over petty bullshit, and creates stress and a hostile work environment for the people who are left - who won't be left much longer because they all started writing new resumes.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Sandry » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:59 pm UTC

You do realise you're treating the general populace as though they respond to events purely with logic and nothing else, right? And you also realise that's actually not at all how the majority of the populace functions?

Firing often generates an emotional response amongst coworkers which makes them resentful of management for that decision, particularly when they have to cover for the person who's gone. It doesn't actually inspire people to efficiency in the general case.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby achan1058 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:58 pm UTC

I am somewhat torn about whether to fire people for not willing to adapt. On one hand, if you don't, it just makes it even harder to upgrade stuff in the future. In the end, the company might just collapse upon itself like what happens with bloated outdated software. ie. It gets trashed and rewritten. On the other hand, it does seem a bit extreme to fire people for not being able to use updated software. Well, I guess we can do the came with legacy code. ie. We make departments "legacy", and stop hiring people into those departments, and start putting pressure on it. Then, the pressure will force the people in the department to adapt, or eventually risk getting fired when they dissolve the department when it gets small enough.

Either that, or as I have said before, find a big enough bug to the legacy software that forces people to simply stop using it. I mean, if there's a bug in IE6 that allows hackers to steal and control everything by you simply opening your browser, and Microsoft isn't willing to fix it, I am pretty sure that most companies will move away from it pretty quickly.
Last edited by achan1058 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby kiklion » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:00 am UTC

There is probably a website dedicated to this, but horror stories from IT here.

I had a co-worker who was trying to use a mail merge feature in office in order to print labels. The issue was whenever she went into the manual edit of the datasource, it would remove the ordering. So I asked her to edit the datasource, save it, re-open it and print it without going into the manual edit window as a work around until I figured out how to stop it from happening. She was unable to understand how she would be able to print the labels without going into that window. After watching her go through the motions 4 times and not doing what I said, 'Don't go into the add/remove entries window' I printed it out for her and I am good until next year.

While watching her demonstrate to me what was occurring (the ordering was not persisting) she opened up word, went to file--> open, navigated to the folder and then opened the file. Then when I asked her where the file was, she went back into word, file --> open, clicked the wrong folder on one of the steps, and closed word in order to start again rather than hitting the up arrow.

Email from client: "My computer says it needs to restart, please advise." He is using a terminal, nothing runs on that computer. He did not know what restart meant for computers.

A secretary snapped the lid off of a scanner. The plastic was in pieces. She called me saying the scanner wasn't working right and if I could head up there to fix it.

We recently moved scheduled virus scans to Tuesday morning so that they wouldn't run while people were working. We sent out a mass email instructing people such and to lock their computer when they left. I received 9 emails, out of a staff of about 120, asking me how they were supposed to shut down their computer if it is locked.

If you give someone a shortcut to a website on their desktop, there is a good chance they might not know if it is a website or an application.

When a partner asked one of the secretary's for an electronic copy of a clients taxes, the secretary printed out the pdf, scanned the print copy and then emailed that pdf.

I have been working here for a year and a half, the list goes on. You would be hard pressed to underestimate the average workers computer skills. I would even venture to say the average IT employee is severely lacking in computer skills.

With that said, offering a second browser may be trivial on a windows domain through sms, if a user can install an application trying to be installed through sms even if they don't have install privileges. I am not sure, our users have admin privs so that they can install virus's.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:08 am UTC

achan1058 wrote:On the other hand, it does seem a bit extreme to fire people for not being able refusing to use updated software.

FTFY

Eseell wrote:petty bullshit

Since when is "wasting hours of company time" petty bullshit?
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby iop » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:41 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:But if you start firing people, doesn't that set a precedent in which people won't waste ITs time, thus increasing the net efficiency of the company? You don't just fire people so you can hire new ones that are better at their job, you fire people so that others will become better at the jobs they have.

Yeah, nothing like a climate of fear to get the people to work hard.

Also, out of curiosity: Are you typing on a Dvorak keyboard layout (which is demonstrably better than QWERTY)?

I still don't understand why users should have to be trained in every upgrade. Isn't the software intuitive? Usually it's just that a button changed location.

No? Features disappear, they change names, they change icons, and not everybody is used to googling for solutions, and not everybody has good google-fu. And intuitive? I still have nightmares about the order management application that we used till recently, and about the one-month-during-which-you-couldn't-get-anything-complicated because everything had changed with the upgrade and no one knew all the details and the system was of course crashing due to some silly software incompatibility.

I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to

So? If it's out of their comfort zone, then what would you do as a boss? Oh, right, fire them, and lose someone who knows the company really well, and was actually really good at their job (and yes, the computer might be important for their job, but learning new software isn't). Seriously, why push people to upgrade to something they don't really need and don't really want, if they're happy and productive with the status quo?

kikklion wrote:There is probably a website dedicated to this, but horror stories from IT here.

Sure, and I have plenty of horror stories of people talking to me about evolution, which they thought they had totally figured out because they have already used an evolutionary algorithm once. So? Be happy not everybody is a specialist in IT, which means that there are jobs for people who can deal well with computers.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:45 am UTC

iop wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:But if you start firing people, doesn't that set a precedent in which people won't waste ITs time, thus increasing the net efficiency of the company? You don't just fire people so you can hire new ones that are better at their job, you fire people so that others will become better at the jobs they have.

Yeah, nothing like a climate of fear to get the people to work hard.

Also, out of curiosity: Are you typing on a Dvorak keyboard layout (which is demonstrably better than QWERTY)?

[citation needed]. And even if that were the case, the unavailability of DVORAK would mean that I'd have to awkwardly switch between QWERTY and DVORAK, thus reducing my typing speed.
I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to

So? If it's out of their comfort zone, then what would you do as a boss? Oh, right, fire them, and lose someone who knows the company really well, and was actually really good at their job (and yes, the computer might be important for their job, but learning new software isn't). Seriously, why push people to upgrade to something they don't really need and don't really want, if they're happy and productive with the status quo?

Because they wouldn't be as productive as they would be with the new software, theoretically? And yes, I think that not doing one's job because one doesn't want to is grounds for a sacking.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:48 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:[citation needed]. And even if that were the case, the unavailability of DVORAK would mean that I'd have to awkwardly switch between QWERTY and DVORAK, thus reducing my typing speed.

What unavailability? Every modern operating system allows use of DVORAK, and no special hardware is required.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:56 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:[citation needed]. And even if that were the case, the unavailability of DVORAK would mean that I'd have to awkwardly switch between QWERTY and DVORAK, thus reducing my typing speed.

What unavailability? Every modern operating system allows use of DVORAK, and no special hardware is required.


Yeah, but people get all pissy if you change their setting. Unless the computer is exclusively yours, you have to keep it at QWERTY and that still means a lot of switching. Also, I'm waiting on a citation showing that DVORAK is necessarily faster than QWERTY.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Eseell » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:06 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Eseell wrote:petty bullshit

Since when is "wasting hours of company time" petty bullshit?

Yes, it is clearly worth the many tens of thousands of dollars it takes to fire, replace, and train a skilled professional if they occasionally (or even regularly) waste minutes of a low-paid IT drone's time.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:08 am UTC

Eseell wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Eseell wrote:petty bullshit

Since when is "wasting hours of company time" petty bullshit?

Yes, it is clearly worth the many tens of thousands of dollars it takes to fire, replace, and train a skilled professional if they occasionally (or even regularly) waste minutes of a low-paid IT drone's time.


I explained this: you don't fire a person just to replace that person. You fire a person so that other people will also stop wasting time.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:35 am UTC

Everyone, just pray that sourmilk doesn't get into management.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:35 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Everyone, just pray that sourmilk doesn't get into management.

I don't plan on it. Management is all about working with people, and I see no reason I'd want a job dedicated to that.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby achan1058 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:36 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Eseell wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Eseell wrote:petty bullshit

Since when is "wasting hours of company time" petty bullshit?

Yes, it is clearly worth the many tens of thousands of dollars it takes to fire, replace, and train a skilled professional if they occasionally (or even regularly) waste minutes of a low-paid IT drone's time.


I explained this: you don't fire a person just to replace that person. You fire a person so that other people will also stop wasting time.
The thing is, you still need to replace that person, some of the time. In the case where you don't, I do think it should be an option to consider. Though I would guess randomly firing a few people would have a big effect on making others to learn. You don't want to be a candidate for a firing lottery.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:37 am UTC

Have you somehow managed to miss the numerous posts about creating hostile environments, lowering morale, and driving employees to go look for jobs elsewhere?

So you've self-admitted that are bad with people. Others here have more experience and aren't so terrible at comprehending social dynamics. And yet you think you know better than them on how to manage employees in the workplace?
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:37 am UTC

achan1058 wrote:The thing is, you still need to replace that person, some of the time.

Yes, but only some of the time.

In the case where you don't, I do think it should be an option to consider. Though I would guess randomly firing a few people would have a big effect on making others to learn. You don't want to be a candidate for a firing lottery.

Exactly.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:42 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Everyone, just pray that sourmilk doesn't get into management.

I don't plan on it. Management is all about working with people, and I see no reason I'd want a job dedicated to that.


For someone who doesn't want to manage people, you sure like to argue about how to manage people.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:49 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Everyone, just pray that sourmilk doesn't get into management.

I don't plan on it. Management is all about working with people, and I see no reason I'd want a job dedicated to that.


For someone who doesn't want to manage people, you sure like to argue about how to manage people.

Yes. Similarly, I have very strong opinions about what laws should and shouldn't be passed despite the fact that I have no intention on becoming a politician.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby iop » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:03 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Also, out of curiosity: Are you typing on a Dvorak keyboard layout (which is demonstrably better than QWERTY)?

[citation needed]. And even if that were the case, the unavailability of DVORAK would mean that I'd have to awkwardly switch between QWERTY and DVORAK, thus reducing my typing speed.[/quote]
The Dvorak keyboard is one of the standard cases for path-dependence in economics. There has been some argument about exactly how much faster you can type with Dvorak keyboards, and while e.g. a recent study found only a 4% increase in speed of typing (pdf), though it is generally agreed that the Dvorak keyboard leads to fewer/smaller finger movements as well as balancing the work the two hands have to do (that's how it was designed in the first place), and thus, the Dvorak keyboard leads to less tiring and repetitive stress injuries. You can also have a look at the references on Wikipedia, if you're interested in additional details. So why again are you resistant to change? Because it's a little bit uncomfortable?

I'm convinced that people don't adapt or deal with new technology not because they can't but because they don't want to

So? If it's out of their comfort zone, then what would you do as a boss? Oh, right, fire them, and lose someone who knows the company really well, and was actually really good at their job (and yes, the computer might be important for their job, but learning new software isn't). Seriously, why push people to upgrade to something they don't really need and don't really want, if they're happy and productive with the status quo?

Because they wouldn't be as productive as they would be with the new software, theoretically?[/quote]
Would they really? Does tabbed browsing really make you write letters more quickly? What features in Word 2007 make you more efficient compared to Word 2003?

achan1058 wrote:Though I would guess randomly firing a few people would have a big effect on making others to learn. You don't want to be a candidate for a firing lottery.

First of all, it assures that those who are qualified and mobile enough to find a job elsewhere will leave. And sure, a climate of fear is great if your goal is compliance with company policy. And that may even be sufficient if the work doesn't involve anything where people have to be creative, but just follow simple orders.


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