Google discontinuing support for old browsers

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bittyx
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby bittyx » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:56 pm UTC

Either that or Enthalpie thinks that using modern features like HTML5 or CSS3, or, let's face it, standards-compliant web-coding, which some older browsers don't support correctly (well, old IE versions mostly) is "intentionally" breaking the old browsers. Since, you know, you can make a functional site that doesn't use that fancy canvas stuff, or cool new CSS features, or AJAX functionality, or basically anything that would otherwise be considered an advance in web technology.

When I do work, I'll try to convince the client to not support old IE versions, since it requires additional coding (sometimes like 50% more time), which, in turn, is a bigger cost for the client (hey, if they really need it, I'll do it, but not for free), and it's generally bad practice to support those browsers (because you need to break standards to make stuff work for them). Also, if more people stop caring about supporting old browsers, eventually, people using those will get annoyed that most of the web doesn't work correctly for them, and will, thus, be forced to upgrade.

I don't see this as "intentionally" breaking stuff - I just want to make standards-compliant web sites that work in any sane browser. I don't care that IE6 doesn't know what "border-radius" is, because, sometimes I want to have rounded corners, and I'm *not* gonna bother making background images for corners, or doing other "hacky" stuff, since "border-radius" is more practical, it means less network traffic, and it is properly standardized. Also, with Microsoft saying that "friends don't let friends use IE6", I feel sorry for anyone who is not in the position to upgrade, and think poorly of those who don't want to do so. Sorry, the world has moved on, your software is deprecated by it's creator - new products shouldn't be forced to work in it.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:07 pm UTC

Look, just because I think music took a sudden and profound downturn when they started pressing those newfangled bright shiny silver 45s, doesn't mean *I'm* the one who's doing something incorrectly.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby achan1058 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I think Enthalpie is still hung up about the one or two people who flippantly remarked that they *should* intentionally break things to force people to get better browsers.

The problem is, Enthalpie seems to have missed the fact that no one else is or ever really was taking that suggestion seriously.
Actually, I do think there are people who take this seriously. Probably not Google, since they are still a corporation, but some personal websites do that. (*break* in this case usually means giving pop-ups to people who are using old browsers, since I mean unless your service is that popular, completely breaking it is pointless) Personally, I see it as doing a good deed, or making a political statement, something he seems to not understand at all. In fact, I personally believe that attitude like his is what that causes a problem. We should see it as natural to give warnings to people using old browsers, and not bothering to specifically coding for them, and only support them if we must (as in, it is a financial disaster not to do so). We do this with JavaScript and Flash a lot, no?
bittyx wrote:@Enthalpie: You seem to be constantly repeating that Google still works with IE3. I think it's a bit disingenuous to call this "working".
Well, it's working better than Youtube. I am pretty sure people who want to use Youtube is forced to upgrade from IE3. :lol:

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Xeio » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:We should see it as natural to give warnings to people using old browsers, and not bothering to specifically coding for them, and only support them if we must (as in, it is a financial disaster not to do so). We do this with JavaScript and Flash a lot, no?
Indeed, there's likely a ton of javascript out there checking if the user is on IE6 or IE7 and trying to do everything it can to work with the broken system it's given.

Of course, by removing that you're "breaking" it if it works currently. But it's a slew of extra code to maintain for the developers.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Enthalpie » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:29 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Google is not "deliberately break"ing things. They are ceasing to care if updates break things. There IS a difference between "yeah we're not gonna put effort into ensuring compatibility here" and "we are going to make effort to ensure incompatibility here."

Which is exactly what I said the whole time. And repeated. And repeated again.

gmalivuk wrote:I think Enthalpie is still hung up about the one or two people who flippantly remarked that they *should* intentionally break things to force people to get better browsers.

Considering that the people that said those things are the ones I was arguing against while repeating to the rest I was just against intentionally breaking things, I do not see any problem here at all. I can repeat it all again, if that is what is needed, but it seems to get rather silly with time.

gmalivuk wrote:The problem is, Enthalpie seems to have missed the fact that no one else is or ever really was taking that suggestion seriously.

No, it seems to me to be exactly the other way around, as time and time again it I got to hear exactly the same arguments I already made myself used against me. It is a kinda eery experience, seeing all of you vehemently disagreeing with me while at the same time agreeing with what I said.

@bittyx, nice picture. You seem to have taken it while there still was that interactive music thing. The search still works fine as ever and does not look weird, though. The most important thing is, you do not see a message saying "does not work, you are too old, mate" and google refusing to work.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby achan1058 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:54 pm UTC

Enthalpie wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Google is not "deliberately break"ing things. They are ceasing to care if updates break things. There IS a difference between "yeah we're not gonna put effort into ensuring compatibility here" and "we are going to make effort to ensure incompatibility here."

Which is exactly what I said the whole time. And repeated. And repeated again.

gmalivuk wrote:I think Enthalpie is still hung up about the one or two people who flippantly remarked that they *should* intentionally break things to force people to get better browsers.

Considering that the people that said those things are the ones I was arguing against while repeating to the rest I was just against intentionally breaking things, I do not see any problem here at all. I can repeat it all again, if that is what is needed, but it seems to get rather silly with time.

gmalivuk wrote:The problem is, Enthalpie seems to have missed the fact that no one else is or ever really was taking that suggestion seriously.

No, it seems to me to be exactly the other way around, as time and time again it I got to hear exactly the same arguments I already made myself used against me. It is a kinda eery experience, seeing all of you vehemently disagreeing with me while at the same time agreeing with what I said.
Let me clear up my position a little, to clarity the bunch of misunderstanding going on here. For a corporation, I do not recommend anyone to intentionally breaking sites so that they do not work on IE6, unless they are willing to make a strong statement at the risk of loss of profit. However, I do think for personal websites that doing such an action won't impact traffic too much (and/or you don't care about profit), we should put up warnings/pop-ups if possible whenever a user uses an old browser, regardless of whether your site needs a new browser to function properly. Just think of it as another ad.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Randomizer » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

Some sites deliberately block Firefox and give you a nice little message about it. Guess some people really hate Adblock. :/

I think I've only ever hit one place that actually does this, a long time ago, but still.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Dauric » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:13 pm UTC

Randomizer wrote:Some sites deliberately block Firefox and give you a nice little message about it. Guess some people really hate Adblock. :/

I think I've only ever hit one place that actually does this, a long time ago, but still.


Well it's a no-brainer really: advert-blocking cuts in to advert-based revenues (which is how most websites make their money).
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Vash » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:07 am UTC

Dauric wrote:Well it's a no-brainer really: advert-blocking cuts in to advert-based revenues (which is how most websites make their money).


Most websites that get ad-blocked deserve it for having really annoying ads (e.g. things that cover up what you are trying to read, or the entire screen, but can't be clicked down to normal size easily or at all, ads that say "Congrulations! You won!," or ads with repetitive sound that are not mutable). They should quit trying to strong-arm, and think about how to better connect with an audience (and promote that among the internet advertising industry in general). Also, those users are cut off entirely anyway then. It's a bad business strategy.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby brume » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:16 pm UTC

Intentionally 'breaking' a site for IE6 won't force anybody to do anything. Chase Bank and the State of Texas (among others) are still using IE6 because of legacy software that depends on it. They don't care if their employees can't see your site because that's most likely a feature rather than a bug.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Xeio » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
Dauric wrote:Well it's a no-brainer really: advert-blocking cuts in to advert-based revenues (which is how most websites make their money).
Most websites that get ad-blocked deserve it for having really annoying ads (e.g. things that cover up what you are trying to read, or the entire screen, but can't be clicked down to normal size easily or at all, ads that say "Congrulations! You won!," or ads with repetitive sound that are not mutable). They should quit trying to strong-arm, and think about how to better connect with an audience (and promote that among the internet advertising industry in general). Also, those users are cut off entirely anyway then. It's a bad business strategy.
Most ad-block software is opt-out, not opt-in. So, no, most websites get adblocked because adblockers block indiscriminately.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Vash » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:33 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Most ad-block software is opt-out, not opt-in. So, no, most websites get adblocked because adblockers block indiscriminately.


Well, that's true. That's why I added the part about the advertising industry (which does not fully address that problem). There are other limitations to the argument I made, also.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:35 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
Xeio wrote:Most ad-block software is opt-out, not opt-in. So, no, most websites get adblocked because adblockers block indiscriminately.

Well, that's true. That's why I added the part about the advertising industry (which does not fully address that problem). There are other limitations to the argument I made, also.

That's where Google's been way ahead of everyone.
I hear that their text ads actually drive more revenue than the aggravating stuff.
It's a pity that they're considering including pictures, now, but for now I'll trust them to keep it unobstrusive.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Randomizer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:43 am UTC

Some guy I know had ads on his site and I decided to to help him out by unblocking them. One set turned out to be junk so I kept them blocked, but the Project Wonderful ads I actually liked looking at. I've found some cool sites through them on occasion. So it's possible to advertise without annoying people. It's also possible that you could have ads so annoying that even your friends will keep them blocked.

Anyway, my main point was that people can block browsers for whatever reason they want, not only due to age/insecurity. And the sites that block Firefox, block it whether it has AdBlocker installed or not. What will they do if other browsers have anti-ad ad-ons available? Not let anyone visit their site?
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Back to speaking of old browsers, back in the day my library had a text-only web browser, but for me at the time any internet was good internet so I used it. I was so happy when they finally upgraded so you could see *pictures*. Yup, back in the days when Dogpile was king and Google was the new kid on the block, the days when someone having dial-up internet in their own home was a luxury, you bought Linux at the store, and porn only came in two colors. *Shakes her head* "You kids today never had it rough."
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby jules.LT » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:22 pm UTC

Randomizer wrote:What will they do if when other browsers have anti-ad ad-ons available? Not let anyone visit their site?"

FTFY
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

Randomizer wrote:And the sites that block Firefox, block it whether it has AdBlocker installed or not. What will they do if other browsers have anti-ad ad-ons available? Not let anyone visit their site?
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Back to speaking of old browsers, back in the day my library had a text-only web browser...
Will more browsers updating to include ad-blockers encourage ad-supported companies, like Google, to support old browsers? I doubt they'd want to encourage users to be able to reduce their revenue.

Was the text browser Lynx? In college, I had a modem but no ISP, so I'd dial into the school and use that. Since a text only browser blocks many ads by virtue of not displaying them, they might be worth blocking if enough people used them. Or, more companies might do what hbo.com does, and give you a warning unless you use one of their specified browsers. Instead of websites opting out of allowing a browser, they may require the user to opt-in to one of their approved browsers.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby Vash » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:42 am UTC

jules.lt wrote:That's where Google's been way ahead of everyone.
I hear that their text ads actually drive more revenue than the aggravating stuff.
It's a pity that they're considering including pictures, now, but for now I'll trust them to keep it unobstrusive.


Interesting. Yeah, I hope that it turns out alright.

gmalivuk wrote:Look, just because I think music took a sudden and profound downturn when they started pressing those newfangled bright shiny silver 45s, doesn't mean *I'm* the one who's doing something incorrectly.


I still listen to wax cylinders, those good ole 4 inches of harmony.

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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:16 am UTC

Don't some browsers let you lie to the website as to which browser you are using, thus making the whole point of browser-blocking moot?
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby jules.LT » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:16 am UTC

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:Don't some browsers let you lie to the website as to which browser you are using, thus making the whole point of browser-blocking moot?

I'd be surprised to not see this become a standard feature of AdBlockers, making only the innocent suffer from the browser-blocking.
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Re: Google discontinuing support for old browsers

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:45 am UTC

jules.lt wrote:
cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:Don't some browsers let you lie to the website as to which browser you are using, thus making the whole point of browser-blocking moot?

I'd be surprised to not see this become a standard feature of AdBlockers, making only the innocent suffer from the browser-blocking.


that won't help anyone stuck with old browsers that they can't upgrade.

if anything i hope this whole business makes my company's IT dept. get off their arses and upgrade from IE6, i'm sure it wouldn't cost them anything to put Firefox on tens of thousands of PCs right?


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