Obama doesn't support gay rights

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Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:28 am UTC

but let's imply he does.

The mainstream media's approach to Obama is frustratingly uncritical.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Not A Raptor » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:40 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:but let's imply he does.

The mainstream media's approach to Obama nearly everything is frustratingly uncritical.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:24 pm UTC

Of course the media is uncritical of Obama, he hasn't denied them any stories yet. Except that one press conference where he wouldn't let in Fox News. After 9/11, Bush got a free pass until he wouldn't let the media cover his daughter's wedding.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:02 pm UTC

Nor does Hillary Clinton, by the way. And Rahm Emanuel only hints at support of marriage equality for his state, not a federal approach to equality.

Basically, the executive side, Democrat wise, is a sack of shit. Little surprise, but at least in the Senate and Congress Democrats are far more supportive, whereas Republicans nearly unanimously always vote it down.

In a state like New York, they could only afford 4 of the Republican majority to vote pro-gay (while only one Democrat did not). In Massachusetts, Scott Brown is against gay marriage and his party still associates with the likes of Mass Resistance, National Organization for Marriage, American Family Association, and other hate groups.

Obama may be a craven politician. But at least the Democratic party has some hope for redemption, whereas the GOP would even wail and propose constitutional amendments when SCOTUS finally settles the issue that all these politicians didn't want to address properly.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Golgavar » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:34 am UTC

Do any of you actually think Obama doesn't support gay marriage? The man who had said "What you’re seeing is a profound recognition on the part of the American people that gays and lesbians and transgender persons are our brothers, our sisters, our children, our cousins, our friends, our coworkers, and that they’ve got to be treated like every other American" ?

As the president he has expanded the federal hate-crimes law, repealed the “don’t-ask-don’t-tell’’ restriction on openly gay soldiers, and has refused to enforce DOMA. He just doesn't want to say something that the right can use to rile up their base. When pressed about it, he said: "I’m not going to make news on that today.’’ That doesn't mean he isn't going to make news again if he is re-elected.

As a gay person, I do find it disappointing that he hasn't come out of the closet in favor of it, but I do understand why he hasn't. If this is what it takes to win the swing states, I'm willing to have a president who refuses to speak about gay marriage, but then on the side support gay rights. Because it would really be a shame if he lost to a bigot who wanted to ban gay marriage in all states.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:51 am UTC

I think it's clear that Obama does support gay marriage (as many of his actions have been towards rights for homosexuals), so what exactly does he have to gain, politically, by maintaining some ambiguity on that subject?
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:19 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I think it's clear that Obama does support gay marriage (as many of his actions have been towards rights for homosexuals), so what exactly does he have to gain, politically, by maintaining some ambiguity on that subject?
I don't think we have the same definition of 'support.' He has expended almost no political capital on gay rights issues. The benefit of maintaining the ambiguity is that he gets support from gays without having to give them anything in return, or alienate any of their opponents.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Tirian » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:00 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:I don't think we have the same definition of 'support.' He has expended almost no political capital on gay rights issues.


I suppose you're going to argue that his generals did all the work on repealing DADT without the president's knowledge and approval?

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:14 am UTC

They did all the work? They testified before Congress, which as far as I know would not require the President's permission. At any rate, Obama did publicly support repeal in his State of the Union address, but it's less clear that this amounted to an expenditure of political capital.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Triangle_Man » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:21 am UTC

I take it that political capital in this case refers to how much time and effort was spent on the issue?
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby phlip » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:37 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I take it that political capital in this case refers to how much time and effort was spent on the issue?

As I understand the term, it's a general reference to all the things that keep you in political power - popular support, funds for campaigning, friends in high places... and the like. Any big decision (like supporting gay marriage) is going to disappoint some people who would wish you went the other way... so you'll lose some of that leverage and/or mandate and/or other words for basically the same thing. And there's only so many times you can do that before you fall out of power. On the other hand, you can play the politics game, try to keep everyone happy, and say meaningless platitudes to everyone... you get to keep your political capital, maybe gain a little in some places, but shit doesn't get done.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:51 am UTC

I think most importantly; he won't say marriage only equal rights. Actually saying marriage would become a big enough soundbite to affect some voters*, and as said this way he gets all the pros and little risk.

*not sure about "moderates", but for a state like mine WV, there are a lot of labor democrats who I can see voting gop/not voting in part because of a social issue like this.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:11 am UTC

Funny that the man who pushed universal healthcare decides to let States decide how to handle gay rights.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

Golgavar wrote: repealed the “don’t-ask-don’t-tell’’ restriction on openly gay soldiers,

He did nothing of the sort. You'll note that DADT is still in effect, and gay soldiers are still being discharged. We're waiting on A BUNCH OF DUDES WHO REPORT TO OBAMA to sign a paper that says that the military won't catch 'the gay.'

Remember, Obama could've easily ended DADT in January 2009. It is now 2011. Just because Congress passed a bill that might eventually repeal DADT if Obama can be bothered to give 2 shits about it does not mean that Obama ended DADT.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby omgryebread » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:29 pm UTC

I'd rather have a president with lukewarm support for gay marriage and who supports the other 99% of my voting agenda than a president who is against gay marriage and also disagrees with that other 99%. Obama's already going to struggle in Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, and all the other swing states. Gay marriage is, unfortunately, a toxic issue, and about as lose/lose as you can get. Don't support it, you hurt your funding. Support it, and you lose votes, and probably gain some funding and votes for the other guy. He could expend all the political capital he has left, which, quite honestly, isn't much, and still not repeal DOMA. He could maybe influence the argument in a few pretty liberal states, but I can't recall any instance where a president waded into state politics like that.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Dark567 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:40 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:*not sure about "moderates", but for a state like mine WV, there are a lot of labor democrats who I can see voting gop/not voting in part because of a social issue like this.
It's always a little important to realize that the Dem's are a much more diverse political tent then the GOP. The number of self described "Progressives" or liberals in the Democratic party is less then half, while the rest is a combination of labor populists, self-interested poor, and moderates. LGBT rights aren't particularly important to those groups, if they aren't outright against them.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Lostdreams » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:17 pm UTC

It never ceases to disappoint me that people are willing to eat a shit sandwich because, "Hey, at least it isn't two shit sandwiches."

Not to say I don't understand why, because I do, it's just disappointing.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:20 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:It never ceases to disappoint me that people are willing to eat a shit sandwich because, "Hey, at least it isn't two shit sandwiches."

Not to say I don't understand why, because I do, it's just disappointing.


It's a little more like choosing the shit sandwich that has moderately less shit in it, but you can't just refuse to pick a shit sandwich because then one will be chosen for you.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Jessica » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:30 pm UTC

Obama doesn't support gay marriage. When questioned on it, a major aid stated in clear words that Obama doesn't support gay marriage, but civil unions instead. This is his stated stance on the issue. It's clear.

Does Obama support the GLBT community? He's done some good, he's done some great, and he's waffled on a lot of other things.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:32 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:Obama doesn't support gay marriage. When questioned on it, a major aid stated in clear words that Obama doesn't support gay marriage, but civil unions instead. This is his stated stance on the issue. It's clear.

Does Obama support the GLBT community? He's done some good, he's done some great, and he's waffled on a lot of other things.


Since then, he's stated that his views are "evolving", and who the hell knows what that means.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Sir Hotzenplotz » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Since then, he's stated that his views are "evolving", and who the hell knows what that means.


That he doesn't want to lose votes by openly speaking out in favor or against it?

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Dark567 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Since then, he's stated that his views are "evolving", and who the hell knows what that means.

What that means is that he personal supports gay marriage, but doesn't publicly push for it due to political ramifications. I am relatively certain that he would push for gay marriage if he thought it was obtainable with the political capital he has left. He's leaving the door open so that if he gets reelected and has more capital he can easily change his view and push for gay rights.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Goplat » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:06 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:What that means is that he personal supports gay marriage, but doesn't publicly push for it due to political ramifications. I am relatively certain that he would push for gay marriage if he thought it was obtainable with the political capital he has left. He's leaving the door open so that if he gets reelected and has more capital he can easily change his view and push for gay rights.
Considering the number of issues he suddenly flip-flopped on or ignored once he got elected the first time, it's just as likely he would start pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. But more likely he'll just stop pretending to care one way or the other.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:15 pm UTC

Goplat wrote:it's just as likely he would start pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.

My money's on invading Yemen.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Vaniver » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:What that means is that he personally supports gay marriage likes gay donations
Democrats have a long history of abusing minority support because they know it's unlikely the minorities will turn to the Republicans, and the amount people donate/vote is proportional to the amount they care, not the effect it has.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:52 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dark567 wrote:What that means is that he personally supports gay marriage likes gay donations
Democrats have a long history of abusing minority support because they know it's unlikely the minorities will turn to the Republicans, and the amount people donate/vote is proportional to the amount they care, not the effect it has.

Well, that's the problem when minorities don't own large corporations. Then again, I'd say most groups of people in the U.S. don't get much consideration out of politicians as they don't have the capital to throw at political campaigns.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Garm » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:57 pm UTC

Given the way the GOP and their crazed base react to everything the President says, I think this is the best approach. There are also socially conservative Dems who are looking for any sort of wedge issue to distance themselves from the president in order to establish their bona fides in a red district. Gay marriage will happen and it'll be great when it does but the president taking to the bully pulpit isn't going to help efforts. The current grassroots is really the way to go.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:It never ceases to disappoint me that people are willing to eat a shit sandwich because, "Hey, at least it isn't two shit sandwiches."

Not to say I don't understand why, because I do, it's just disappointing.

Because US Politics are a shit deli. All you will find is shit sandwiches, shit salads, and shit soup. If you want it, they won't serve it until it has been excreted and everything worthwhile is gone.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sje46 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

Can you actually be assed to link to an article I can view? Or at least copy/paste it here?

The mainstream media's approach to Obama is frustratingly uncritical.

Hahahhaha. Yeah, sure. Are we on Fox News now? Am I on TV? Hi Dad!

But yeah, I suppose that since he doesn't publicly support gay marriage, he opposes *all* gay rights *ever*.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Belial » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:04 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:But yeah, I suppose that since he doesn't publicly support gay marriage, he opposes *all* gay rights *ever*.


Compare this statement to the title of the thread and then write me a 2 page paper on why you shouldn't have eaten those paint chips. Fingerpaint grudgingly accepted.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:12 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
sje46 wrote:But yeah, I suppose that since he doesn't publicly support gay marriage, he opposes *all* gay rights *ever*.


Compare this statement to the title of the thread and then write me a 2 page paper on why you shouldn't have eaten those paint chips. Fingerpaint grudgingly accepted.

You will be graded on ability to construct complete letters and you must have at least one attempt at using source material.

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

goplat wrote:Considering the number of issues he suddenly flip-flopped on or ignored once he got elected the first time, it's just as likely he would start pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. But more likely he'll just stop pretending to care one way or the other.


You're exaggerating.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:34 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:It never ceases to disappoint me that people are willing to eat a shit sandwich because, "Hey, at least it isn't two shit sandwiches."

Not to say I don't understand why, because I do, it's just disappointing.

Because US Politics are a shit deli. All you will find is shit sandwiches, shit salads, and shit soup. If you want it, they won't serve it until it has been excreted and everything worthwhile is gone.

Is this or is this not a direct result of humans being shitty in general?
That is my personal theory. Seriously since my birth I don't think I've seen a single generally-successful politician in any country who has managed to please people on the whole. Either this has to do with politicians, or it's really just all of us.
Obama isn't being the staunch defender of the gay rights I was hoping for. He hasn't been a lot of things I was hoping for... but I did just spend the last 8 years under George Bush, whose particular brand of politics made me fear for my safety and sanity, so to be honest I am still happier with Obama's administration than the previous. Yes, it's only one shit sandwich and not two, but actually I'd place a can of Coke Classic in the analogy, because while we may be eating a shit sandwich, we do have a few things to wash the taste out of our mouth with.*

Like the blood of Osama bin Laden, amirite?

*disclaimer: it's one of those tiny cans that they sell now that we're in a depression, and also it doesn't really help. God Bless America!
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby Dark567 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:42 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
goplat wrote:Considering the number of issues he suddenly flip-flopped on or ignored once he got elected the first time, it's just as likely he would start pushing for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. But more likely he'll just stop pretending to care one way or the other.


You're exaggerating.

Yeah, really most of the things that Obama has flipped on are procedural(debt limit, the "nuclear option") not policy. I think the left just had higher expectations of him to be able to get things done, which in politics is much easier said then done. The only policy things I can think of are Guantanamo and deciding to push for a individual mandate after claiming he wouldn't.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:43 pm UTC

Seriously since my birth I don't think I've seen a single generally-successful politician in any country who has managed to please people on the whole.

That's not a good metric. People don't know what's good for them.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:48 pm UTC

You're not wrong but I think you're just proving my 'people are shitty at existence' theory with that call.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:49 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're not wrong but I think you're just proving my 'people are shitty at existence' theory with that call.

That's not one I'm going to contest.

It always bugs me to say things like that, because who am I to say that the majority of humans are idiots? How do I know I'm not one myself? Well, certain objective tests (and selection bias amongst these fora) appear to indicate as much, so I hope that's sufficient.
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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby IcedT » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

Honestly, I think the man supports gay marriage, but he's got way too much shit on his plate right now and not nearly enough political capital to get it all done. The Democrats are having to fight tooth and nail just to keep the country from going into default, they lack the energy or resources to do anything for gay marriage at the federal level right now and bringing it up would just mobilize more Republican crazies.

sourmilk wrote:It always bugs me to say things like that, because who am I to say that the majority of humans are idiots? How do I know I'm not one myself? Well, certain objective tests (and selection bias amongst these fora) appear to indicate as much, so I hope that's sufficient.

I don't really think the problem is that people are 'idiots' in that they just don't have the brainpower to understand what's going on around them or form reasonable opinions. I think it's got more to do with people being small, weak, undedicated, and narcissistic. Why learn when it's so much more satisfying to just blame the other guy?

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Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:08 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:You're not wrong but I think you're just proving my 'people are shitty at existence' theory with that call.

That's not one I'm going to contest.

It always bugs me to say things like that, because who am I to say that the majority of humans are idiots? How do I know I'm not one myself? Well, certain objective tests (and selection bias amongst these fora) appear to indicate as much, so I hope that's sufficient.

Ohhh, that's where you've got yourself. You can't assume you're not an idiot. You probably are.

I find it's easier to just go with the assumption that one is an idiot until someone comes along and proves themselves a bigger idiot.

And the biggest idiots get elected to office! Granted, some of them are very clever idiots. But ask me in 40 years how I like my non-existent salmon sushi and inability to leave the house, and I'll remind you that just about everyone making law in the turn of the millenium US politics was a fucking idiot. I can list those that aren't on my hand. If anything in this country were done with an ounce of fucking forethought we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about cap and trade during election commercials because it'd already be done. The plans to keep us all alive would be in the works and these social conservative issues would at the very, very least already be penned by someone with half of a brain so that once we get to the point of needing the legislation, it's not half-assed.
Man, the republicans get into the majority in the House again and the first things they do are 3 bills on how to make abortion harder to get. It's like a refreshing reminder of what was. Like throwing up the shit sandwich so you have to taste it again.

Just one shit sandwich? What, is this a holiday?
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

nowfocus
Posts: 948
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:34 am UTC

Re: Obama doesn't support gay rights

Postby nowfocus » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:28 am UTC

Obama stopped defending DOMA, repealed DADT, and appointed openly gay men to be social secretary and to a senior position in the military, reinstated LGBT month, came out in support of bullied gay teens, and filmed an 'it gets better video'.

He picks the fights he can win, and he can't win this one right now. Gay marriage is only going to get more popular, and when the support is there he will work hard to pass it.
Jahoclave wrote:Besides if you observe romance, you change the outcome. Especially if you put his/her friend Catherine in a box.

Menacing Spike wrote:Was it the copper hammer or the children part that caused censoring?


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