Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

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Garm
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Garm » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Garm wrote:If we're going to talk about whether or not empiricism is a thing someone needs to run outside, kick a rock, and yell "I refute it thus!"

But how do you know you're really feeling pain because you kicked a rock? HOW DO YOU KNOW MAN?!


Arguments like that make me stop caring. It's just the "why?" game played by adults. :)

The source of my quote:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the non-existence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it, 'I refute it thus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson
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Jahoclave
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:12 pm UTC

Garm wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Garm wrote:If we're going to talk about whether or not empiricism is a thing someone needs to run outside, kick a rock, and yell "I refute it thus!"

But how do you know you're really feeling pain because you kicked a rock? HOW DO YOU KNOW MAN?!


Arguments like that make me stop caring. It's just the "why?" game played by adults. :)

The source of my quote:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the non-existence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it, 'I refute it thus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson

Yeah, you'll not hear out of me the claim that it's a very useful argument.

And yes, I knew about that story.

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clockworkmonk
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby clockworkmonk » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:13 pm UTC

Yeah, there isn't actually any evidence we perceive the world as it is.

We would have to be aware of the evidence that we perceive the world as it is separate from our perception of the world.

So yes, we assume that we perceive things that are there.

Its pretty stupid, but there ya go.
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Triangle_Man
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

I believe I read somewhere that the biases people have in their subconscious minds are so deeply ingrained that we are completely unaware of them and assume that our worldviews are based off of rational, unbiased, objective reasoning even when we are aware of the existence of bias.
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:31 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I believe I read somewhere that the biases people have in their subconscious minds are so deeply ingrained that we are completely unaware of them and assume that our worldviews are based off of rational, unbiased, objective reasoning even when we are aware of the existence of bias.

I can really imagine critical theorist who spend a lot of their time unmasking ideologies objecting to this. Then I imagine them doing so ironically. Then I get really sad about the idea of theorist hipsters.

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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby KittenKaboodle » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:41 am UTC

Garm wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Garm wrote:If we're going to talk about whether or not empiricism is a thing someone needs to run outside, kick a rock, and yell "I refute it thus!"

But how do you know you're really feeling pain because you kicked a rock? HOW DO YOU KNOW MAN?!


Arguments like that make me stop caring. It's just the "why?" game played by adults. :)

May I direct your attention to: http://xkcd.com/505/, it may seem like a game (or a comic strip) to you, but how do you KNOW!?

[Poe's law] I'm no expert, most of what I "know" about "God" I learned fron Bob Dylan ("God said to Abraham 'Kill me a son'/Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin' me on'.") but it seems that "God" is fond of tests, so how do we know that perceptions, empiricism "testable" evidence etc. are not just a test? [/Poe's law]

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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby jules.LT » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:18 am UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:Yeah, there isn't actually any evidence we perceive the world as it is.
We would have to be aware of the evidence that we perceive the world as it is separate from our perception of the world.
So yes, we assume that we perceive things that are there.
Its pretty stupid, but there ya go.

Actually, there is evidence: our perception and the consistency of the perceived effect of our actions on this perceived world.
The evidence is just compelling.

What we don't have and never will have is proof.
But if our perception is unprovable, then all we can prove are things that are not based on our perception: basically, only maths remain.

So what do we care about absolute proofs? Isn't it good enough to have almost-proofs based on our perception triple-checked with instruments and the experimenting of other almost-certainly-individuals?
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Radical_Initiator » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:44 am UTC

Dauric wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:
DSenette wrote:and at that point you're into the realm of ridiculous solipistic metaphysical drivel. it adds no value to anything. that's the type of "mind shattering" stuff you decide to roll out when you're baked out of your mind and trying to impress a sorority chic.

So you're saying that your beliefs will get you in front of a posterboard in the science center, while mine will put me on the roof smoking weed and nailing your TA? How exactly is that bad for me?


With all due respect to Douglas Adams, because that kind of metaphysical drivel is the kind of stuff that you use to prove black and white are one and the same and then you get killed the next time you're in a crosswalk.

Empiricism, causation, perception, 'universal truth'... we use these concepts every day to function. The traffic light I see is red, so I rather assume my perception shares a certain universal truth with other drivers around me and they're going to stop at the light so I should probably apply my brakes that my through a process of causation will bring my vehicle to a stop.

It's fine and dandy to argue that it's possible not everyone around me even exists, much less shares the same perception of the light turning red, but to act on that argument and blow through the light, or even attempt to blow through cars stopped in front of me ('cause it could be my perception of them is flawed and they don't actually exist) is a Grade A way to cause an accident and/or halt being a self-animating entity.

Science is concerned with function and practical application. The underlying principles of Science are the same underlying principles that allow us to function in the day-to-day fashion that we do regardless of the philosophical inquiries that question those principles. It's fine to question those underlying principles or how those principles come about in the theoretical, but it's not practical nor applicable which is why it's not science.


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Triangle_Man
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby Triangle_Man » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:44 am UTC

I love how this thread started out about the separation of Church and State and has turned into a discussion about subjectivism vs. objectivism.

Then again, this seems to happen a lot here.
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Re: Missouri may be crossing the church-state divide?

Postby addams » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:48 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I love how this thread started out about the separation of Church and State and has turned into a discussion about subjectivism vs. objectivism.

Then again, this seems to happen a lot here.

This is a funny place. It really is. Many of the posters seem quite bright. The conversations are deep.
So, the xkcd posters are redefining Philosophy and what is real and what is not real while the Laws are changed and rearranged by people with the IQ of room temperature.
I know. That IQ remark is somewhat untrue. There are smart people behind the scenes. That makes it, kind of, sad.
You Eurasians have it easy, now. Right?
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