Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

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Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:37 pm UTC

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby EsotericWombat » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

They tried to make her go to rehab...
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

*sigh* The only thing I want to say about this is really, really offensive, so I'll just go with the backup comment: fame is hard.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby casoid » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:03 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Anyone surprised? Anyone?


What, that someone who has spent the last six or so years shoveling drugs into her grid faster than Colombia can produce them and who was booed off the stage earlier on day one of her comeback tour for being shitfaced has died?

Yes, I am shocked to my core. I must now text overwhelmingly nice things into the radio stations that only loosely correlate with reality.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:11 pm UTC

Sad news indeed, a real waste of talent there :(

And I think it is a surprise somewhat, we all say 'oh it'll be no surprise if musician X drops dead from their addictions' but for every Jimi Hendrix there's a Keith Richards or Bob Dylan or Lou Reed etc who is still with us despite all the excesses of their youth.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Twelfthroot » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:25 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:They tried to make her go to rehab...


Ah, you did a splendid job of making me feel like a bad person.


I was particularly surprised to see this news, not so much because of her death, but because having only heard her voice and not seen her, I would have guessed she was a good deal older.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:29 pm UTC

I'm surprised like I am surprised when the GOP act like massive tards, that is to say, not at all.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby poxic » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:52 pm UTC

I was hoping we'd get a couple of more albums out of her first, but yeah, it seemed inevitable. What a recording it would have been if she could have hung on long enough to make a couple in her 50s -- maturity of voice and character, and just plain old time spent practising. :sadface:
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:27 pm UTC

Well, better that she is remembered as a singer, rather than a brain-damaged reality show flunkee *cough*OzzyOzbourne*cough*.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Well, better that she is remembered as a singer, rather than a brain-damaged reality show flunkee *cough*OzzyOzbourne*cough*.


I'm not sure dying in one's 20s is really the best way of having that happen.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:45 pm UTC

No, but would people remember Hendrix and Cobain as fondly if they ended up as a cheap joke on Saturday Night Live?

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:53 pm UTC

I'd rather that than the fate they ended up with.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, but would people remember Hendrix and Cobain as fondly if they ended up as a cheap joke on Saturday Night Live?
Look at Elvis. Despite becoming a joke, some people still remain fans of his early work.

So yes, some would. Hell, look at the Stones, The Who, Paul McCartney, Aerosmith, and so on. Lots of acts are around for decades with change in the fanbase, sure - but fans all the same.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby hrabanus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:55 pm UTC

Personally I think it's better to be a joke than dead, so yay Ozzy!

It bothers me a lot, though, that there's so many people everywhere saying: "she brought this upon herself". From now on I will say this myself when I hear of people dying in car crashes.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby M1k3_Nix » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:06 am UTC

Amy Winehouse wrote:They tried to make me go to rehab, I said, "No, no, no"


Sorry for the joke in poor taste, but I'll be frank, if you fill your body with drugs, shit is gunna happen sooner rather then later.
My sympathies are with those in Oslo, not a drug addict.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby podbaydoor » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:10 am UTC

It's still a waste. We can sympathize with Oslo and focus on that without actively trashing or blaming on her.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:30 am UTC

It bothers me a lot, though, that there's so many people everywhere saying: "she brought this upon herself". From now on I will say this myself when I hear of people dying in car crashes.


The two situations aren't quite analogous. With addiction, you consciously take actions that you know have negative consequences. You actually are to blame. Well, maybe: if the addiction is severe enough that it's a disorder then the amount of control you have over yourself diminishes. But then again, you got yourself to that place anyways...

With a car crash, it is not necessarily the fault of the deceased that he died. When it is, then I have no problem with a person blaming the deceased. A few years ago, a teenager and his friend were racing and one crashed into a tree and died in the block next to me. I had sympathy for the kid's family, but I have no sympathy for him or his friend, who brought this upon themselves.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Kewangji » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:07 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:The two situations aren't quite analogous. With addiction, you consciously take actions that you know have negative consequences. You actually are to blame. Well, maybe: if the addiction is severe enough that it's a disorder then the amount of control you have over yourself diminishes. But then again, you got yourself to that place anyways...

Are you, or have you ever been, addicted to a substance or behaviour?
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Ortus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:09 am UTC

Kewangji wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:The two situations aren't quite analogous. With addiction, you consciously take actions that you know have negative consequences. You actually are to blame. Well, maybe: if the addiction is severe enough that it's a disorder then the amount of control you have over yourself diminishes. But then again, you got yourself to that place anyways...

Are you, or have you ever been, addicted to a substance or behaviour?


Without waiting for his response,

Sourmilk, that's not how it works. Sorry.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:14 am UTC

How does it work? I was trying to leave a lot of possibilities open in that paragraph.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby curtis95112 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:44 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:How does it work? I was trying to leave a lot of possibilities open in that paragraph.


It's like blaming someone who was born poor for being poor after growing up. The reasoning might go "Well, you made the conscious decision to not work hard at school". While they certainly did make that decision, and probably would have been better off if they didn't make that choice, people don't have as much control over their lives as you'd like to believe. Demographics make that much clear (for both education and drug use) at least. And if you consider the sheer number of vulnerable children/young adults coerced into taking drugs, it's very difficult to blame the victims. People don't take drugs because they want to make their lives shitty, they take them because their lives are shitty.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Kewangji » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:46 am UTC

You left the possibilities open for 'she got herself into that situation' and 'she got herself into that situation and then couldn't get out'. That's uh, not a lot.

Why do you think people smoke cigarettes? Why do you think people fail to quit smoking cigarettes? Reality has far too harsh a punishment for doing stupid shit, to paraphrase Philip K. Dick. That punishment is addiction. It is a disease and it is difficult to cure oneself. A lot of people get addicted to cigarettes in their teenages, during circumstances where you can't really say that someone was entirely in charge of their actions (considering peer pressure, cultural pressure, etc). Now, imagine the same thing but with heavier drugs, and the heavier effect they have on the human body, and consider that the peer pressure is probably different as well; drugs being illegal, underground stuff being more brutal, etc.

Excuse the rambling, it is late. I hope my arguments are somewhat lucid at least.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Tirian » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:22 am UTC

Amy Winehouse's death is a tragedy. Like many tragedies, it was heavily foreshadowed.

It's a shame that she was exploring a musical style in interesting ways and we won't get to see where she was going with it, just like it was a shame that dozens of Norwegians woke up yesterday never expecting it would be the last day of their life. There's no reason that these facts should have to compete to see which is the bigger shame. Have a big enough heart to mourn both of them.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Ortus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:28 am UTC

@sourmilk

You can consciously choose to breath, right? Or even to not take a breath? You can sit there and consciously choose and dictate each breath, from the extent of the inhalation to the force of the exhalation... even the timings between each breath, the quickness of the individual breaths, or if it comes in and out your nose or your mouth or a mixture of both. But after consciously breathing for a little while, your mind wanders and you end up going off to whatever it is that now piques your interest, totally ignoring your breathing at odds with the concentration you held before. But you don't stop breathing.

Verily, addiction is more like that than anything else. You can think about it, even rationally, and you can change your behavior or force yourself in to staving off the behavior you are addicted to while you sit there concentrating. But as soon as you stop concentrating, as soon as you stop giving it everything you've got? It comes back like your next breath, exactly the same as it was before, and there you are doing it all over again.

And that's not even the extent of it... there are so many different forms of addiction, and different things that keep you addicted - it is not a battle easily won by oneself. Out of all the addiction in my family (and there is quite a bit) and in those of my friends', and in the addiction I've experienced my self, I have known exactly zero people who have saved themselves. My father quit shooting cocaine and smoking and drinking alcohol the day my mother became pregnant with my brother, but he had help doing it and he needed help to stay clear of it. Addiction isn't just something that happens with drugs and tobacco or other such things, it can be behavioral, social... and if you're predisposed to it, like I and many other people around the world? You can live a straight-edged life and still find yourself fucked with addiction.

Spoilered for potential trigger.

Spoiler:
Which is to say, (severe) addiction isn't always (or even usually) something a person walks in to, it's something that hunts you down and finds you asleep in your home and fucks you raw and keeps going for the rest of your life. Even once you break its jaw, shatter its kneecaps, and stab it so many times you rip your biceps, it'll wait right outside your window, or stand behind your shoulder as you go about your day. Eventually, over time, addiction can be as entirely beaten as such things can be, but it is by no means something that should/can be done alone, and it is not remotely easy.

Which is a common theme of more than a few mental illnesses(/diseases).
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:40 am UTC

Isn't that lovely imagery.

Anyways, I didn't mean to imply that it was necessarily her fault that she was addicted. If she made the decision to perform actions she knew would lead to addiction and was aware of the consequences of addiction, then I'd have no sympathy for her. But, as a lot of you are saying, she may not have really mentally connected the consequences to the actions, like that "poor person who didn't work hard in school" thing. Or she wasn't really aware of those consequences. At least, I think that's what you said.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby curtis95112 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:50 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Isn't that lovely imagery.

Anyways, I didn't mean to imply that it was necessarily her fault that she was addicted. If she made the decision to perform actions she knew would lead to addiction and was aware of the consequences of addiction, then I'd have no sympathy for her. But, as a lot of you are saying, she may not have really mentally connected the consequences to the actions, like that "poor person who didn't work hard in school" thing. Or she wasn't really aware of those consequences. At least, I think that's what you said.


Also that even after making those connections, it may be difficult to not succumb. Circumstances and peer pressure goes a long way.
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Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:54 am UTC

curtis95112 wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Isn't that lovely imagery.

Anyways, I didn't mean to imply that it was necessarily her fault that she was addicted. If she made the decision to perform actions she knew would lead to addiction and was aware of the consequences of addiction, then I'd have no sympathy for her. But, as a lot of you are saying, she may not have really mentally connected the consequences to the actions, like that "poor person who didn't work hard in school" thing. Or she wasn't really aware of those consequences. At least, I think that's what you said.


Also that even after making those connections, it may be difficult to not succumb. Circumstances and peer pressure goes a long way.


Peer pressure seems like it should only be an excuse up to a certain point. Like, if you're a kid and you succumb, that might be forgivable. And Amy Winehouse could well have been addicted to drugs from a young age. But by the time you're about 16ish (yes, I hold people of my age to a high standard), then I think it's your fault. Feel free to adjust the age limit as necessary, but I think the point stands.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:03 am UTC

But peer pressure is what society is. With good friends, you can avoid a lot of the nastier types of peer pressure (it's often true that you are who you associate with), but someone in Winehouse's position probably doesn't have friends so much as parasites trying to ride the Grammy gravy-train.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Ortus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:04 am UTC

I don't think you get the point, sourmilk. You can make the right decision every day of your life and steer clear of addictive substances and avoid addicting behaviors as much as you want - it will not stop addiction from getting to you if you're predisposed towards it. You don't even need to slip up once: if you have an addictive personality or a family history of addiction, good luck. And then you also have to deal with shit like peer/societal pressure and the pressure your own brain exerts on you.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby curtis95112 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:07 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Isn't that lovely imagery.

Anyways, I didn't mean to imply that it was necessarily her fault that she was addicted. If she made the decision to perform actions she knew would lead to addiction and was aware of the consequences of addiction, then I'd have no sympathy for her. But, as a lot of you are saying, she may not have really mentally connected the consequences to the actions, like that "poor person who didn't work hard in school" thing. Or she wasn't really aware of those consequences. At least, I think that's what you said.


Also that even after making those connections, it may be difficult to not succumb. Circumstances and peer pressure goes a long way.


Peer pressure seems like it should only be an excuse up to a certain point. Like, if you're a kid and you succumb, that might be forgivable. And Amy Winehouse could well have been addicted to drugs from a young age. But by the time you're about 16ish (yes, I hold people of my age to a high standard), then I think it's your fault. Feel free to adjust the age limit as necessary, but I think the point stands.


You hold people of your age to a high standard because you, and possibly the people around you are outliers.
Resistance to peer pressure is in many ways an acquired trait. There are many people, even adults, who cannot resist peer pressure effectively (They're called republicans![/snark]). I'm not saying peer pressure is necessarily an excuse. Just that it's a possible mitigating factor and that people certainly deserve sympathy if nothing else.

Edit @ Ortus: I have to disagree with you. No matter how genetically predisposed you are to addiction, you're not going to get addicted if you don't touch the stuff.
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Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:14 am UTC

What is required to acquire resistance to peer pressure, other than the knowledge that peer pressure is something to be taken with a dead sea of salt?
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:18 am UTC

Sour, have you ever worn clothes not from Goodwill or a thrift store? Do you shave and/or wear deodorant? Do you avoid cracking knuckles or pacing in public? Why? Welcome to peer pressure.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Ortus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:20 am UTC

curtis95112 wrote:
Edit @ Ortus: I have to disagree with you. No matter how genetically predisposed you are to addiction, you're not going to get addicted if you don't touch the stuff.


Depends on the addiction. An addiction to a substance? Yeah, in most cases and at one point in time, you consciously choose to partake of that substance. But what about an addiction to pornography? Or an addiction to a substance you can't avoid, like adrenaline? How about addictions that stem from drugs given to you while you're in the hospital?
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby curtis95112 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:20 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:What is required to acquire resistance to peer pressure, other than the knowledge that peer pressure is something to be taken with a dead sea of salt?


Critical thinking abilities, rhetorical skill, ability to keep one's self-confidence in the face of overwhelming popular disdain, the courage to risk physical and mental abuse from their peers, the list goes on.
There's a reason we have to have campaigns that tell people it's okay to say no (drugs, sex, crime, you name it), and that it's okay to tell adults (bullying and others). There's a reason it's difficult to rehabilitate people from things like crime that isn't physically addictive. Resisting peer pressure can often mean throwing away a large number of personal relationships.
The default state for a human being is one that follows what everyone else does. You have to realize that you're one heck of an outlier, blessed with quality education, intelligence, good friends, and a society that's not trying to manipulate you at every turn.

Edit @ Ortus: Conceded. I wasn't thinking widely enough.
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Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

Thats the best description of the USA ever.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:27 am UTC

I recognize that I'm an outlier. Unfortunately, part of that means that I don't know precisely what makes me an outlier.

CorruptUser wrote:Sour, have you ever worn clothes not from Goodwill or a thrift store?

Yeah, not that I'd care much either way.

Do you shave and/or wear deodorant?

No, I usually forget to. Especially seeing as I just started growing facial hair a couple months ago.

Do you avoid cracking knuckles or pacing in public?

nope.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Nordic Einar » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:27 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:But by the time you're about 16ish (yes, I hold people of my age to a high standard), then I think it's your fault. Feel free to adjust the age limit as necessary, but I think the point stands.


At the age of 16 our brains haven't even finished fully developing - we lack the synaptic connections of someone in their mid twenties or older. The idea that, at 16, we are fully fledged adults with complete control over our lives and agency is not true for the vast majority of human beings.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:32 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:But by the time you're about 16ish (yes, I hold people of my age to a high standard), then I think it's your fault. Feel free to adjust the age limit as necessary, but I think the point stands.


At the age of 16 our brains haven't even finished fully developing - we lack the synaptic connections of someone in their mid twenties or older. The idea that, at 16, we are fully fledged adults with complete control over our lives and agency is not true for the vast majority of human beings.


I didn't mean to imply that 16 year olds had all of the capabilities as adults. I just felt that this should be one that we do have.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby poxic » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:00 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I didn't mean to imply that 16 year olds had all of the capabilities as adults. I just felt that this should be one that we do have.

That, I think, is the sticking point. You're thinking in terms of "should", not "actually". Real life does not operate by "should".
In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being. We should all be thankful for those people who rekindle the inner spirit.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:14 am UTC

poxic wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I didn't mean to imply that 16 year olds had all of the capabilities as adults. I just felt that this should be one that we do have.

That, I think, is the sticking point. You're thinking in terms of "should", not "actually". Real life does not operate by "should".


Well, when I say "should" in this context I generally mean that, if one doesn't, he's an outlier or he's intentionally not using that skill.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Nordic Einar » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:41 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
poxic wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I didn't mean to imply that 16 year olds had all of the capabilities as adults. I just felt that this should be one that we do have.

That, I think, is the sticking point. You're thinking in terms of "should", not "actually". Real life does not operate by "should".


Well, when I say "should" in this context I generally mean that, if one doesn't, he's an outlier or he's intentionally not using that skill.


You can think what you'd like - our current understanding of neuropsychology (based on, y'know, science) disagrees with you. Surely a certain level of competence and moral responsibility is applicable to individuals at this age, but it is a simple fact that we are not fully biologically developed at that age in a neurological sense. This has a profound effect on our judgement and ability to do risk assessment, nevermind our moral development.


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