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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:09 am UTC
by Gopher of Pern
In Australia we have primary school, which is K-6 (so, Kindergarten, and years 1 - 6), which spans the ages of 5-12. Then we have high school, which is years 7-12, generally ages 13-18. Of course, not everyone is the same age, but its a general guideline. Seniors in high school are yrs 11 and 12. Year 10 is the School Certificate, usually the base requirement for a job. Year 12 is the higher school certificate, used for getting into universities.

Grabbing by the neck was probably a bit too far, but I can understand the frustration of the school staff. There is no easy fix for these problems.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:28 am UTC
by yurell
In this part of Australia (Victoria) Kindergarten is pre-school, Primary School is Prep-6 and High School 7-12 (Forms 1-6)

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:39 am UTC
by jules.LT
Gopher of Pern wrote:Grabbing by the neck was probably a bit too far

I've seen several people write that, and I must say that grabbing a kid by the neck from the back is a pretty efficient way to get him under control without doing any harm.
There's no reason to believe that she was hurt or strangled in any way. It rather looks like she just hated being physically forced to comply with the authority she was under.

That being said, teachers should be taught clearly unharmful ways to grab the kids that they would be authorized to use.
You can't go and call the police for every unruly kid.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:01 am UTC
by iChef
As somebody who went to Catholic school from grades 1 - 8 I would like to speak in favor of beating the crap out of this kid. This isn't talking in class, skipping school or not doing your homework kind of trouble. This girl is acting like an animal. These kind of students were a big reason I decided to spend 1/2 my school day at the local tech center (a technical high school where you go 1/2 the day to learn a skill like plumbing, metal working, computer programming or construction). When the teachers are forced to spend most of the class time dealing with a small minority of unruly students, the majority of the class who are actually there to learn suffer. My experience at the tech center was amazing because the students who were there got up to start an hour earlier than normal school and wanted to be there rather than being forced. It was a great place to learn when everyone was interested in the subjects we were studying. This was a huge contrast to the second half of the day when 2/3 of the kids were taking school at least somewhat seriously and the rest were either causing trouble just to get attention (which is a major problem) or wandering the halls fighting and selling pot (which isn't quite as bad but it would be better is they were allowed to drop out so they can do that shit on the street instead of in the school).

As long as the girl wasn't seriously hurt there is no reason to make a big deal about the teacher restraining the student. In a better world after that kind of stunt a closed fist on the end of the nose might be a much more educational experience.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:24 am UTC
by Qaanol
There is a lot to be said about the problem of students who don’t want to be in school, don’t want to sit quietly, don’t want to pay attention. If the purpose of a public school is to churn out mindless drudges who can perform boring rote work en masse, who can sit by themselves and do what they’re told, then perhaps the current system is pretty good at forcing that outcome.

But how about a lot more time for students to be social and interact, and perhaps even go outside? Maybe some mandatory classes on etiquette, tact, and sociability that everyone has to take, and they start with young kids and continue on up. That way we can all not only do basic arithmetic but also be at least slightly polite. But by and large just letting kids go to school in a manner that doesn’t look like a jail might be a good start.

There’s often debate about what topics should be included in various curricula. But when the single strongest lesson, which is taught continuously throughout all grades, is “Do what you’re told, don’t make waves, you don’t have the power to change anything” that doesn’t exactly make for the best of all possible voters in a democracy.

Suspending students from school is not a beneficial outcome. Redesigning schools so that more students are motivated to attend and do well, that might get somewhere. I bet this 13yo egg thrower has some strong opinions on what would make school a lot better. I bet just about every student in any school anywhere does. And I bet if they take a moment to say something about it that’s not sarcastic or dismissive, they just might have some good ideas.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:00 am UTC
by Lucrece
Anything they might pick up from etiquette class is easily demolished when they get back to their homes. You'd be surprised just how harmless these savage children look compared to their parents.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:45 am UTC
by Red Hal
That is an important point. The reason schools don't do the social interaction thing is because that should be taught by the parents. Socialising your child is one of the things that a parent should do, not the school.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:09 am UTC
by LtNOWIS
curtis95112 wrote:The point is that the police should know how to safely restrain a resisting student. The teachers probably don't.

EDIT: What the apostrophe?

Back when I was in high school, I saw a couple fights get physically broken up by teachers. It's not rocket science. In fights and various other cases, a policy of teachers not laying a finger on students would be problematic.

Ulc wrote:2) In the US high school starts at grade 8, not grade 7. Therefore, this happened in a country outside of the US.

It varies. Heck, even within my county, there are some grade 9-12 high schools, some grade 7-8 middle schools, and some grade 7-12 "secondary schools."

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:42 am UTC
by addams
Lucrece wrote:In the case of the US, schools receive financial benefits for having as many students attend as possible. Expelling a student is rather hard, and as a result bullies often are undeterred in their torture of others unless someone actually gets out of the stupid pity phase and has that person criminally charged and removed from the school.

Your right to attend a public institution ends when you assault other people. Some here are saying it's just throwing an egg. Well, you just stand there and let me pelt you in the face with an egg to see how trivial you deem it then.

Not to mention the damage to your clothes, which that rotten little shit most likely won't be liable for.

She shouldn't be stoned, but she can sure as hell be exiled to her shitty parents so it's THEM who have to put up with her violent behavior instead of carting her off on everybody else who doesn't have an obligation to be intimidated and abused by her. When she shows maintained change in her behavior she can be allowed back in school.

People have a right to be free from bullies of any kind in a public institution. Particularly educational institutions. That includes educators.


To attend school is a privlage of a civil society. This young woman seems to come from an uncivil section of society. Yes. I agree with you. We all need higher standards. The educators are not able to help those that need and want help to understand difficult concepts, if, the educators are spending their time dealing with people that want to be ignorant and are willing to fight for the right to remain ignorant.

How awful for the students, the faculty, the community. It must be so embarrassing. I am sorry that one rotten kid can get so much 'Glory' for being a shit. I am sorry that this has happened to you. The whole fricking family needs some extra special care.

If, I were King of the Universe, then, that whole family would be required to take a special class in Good Manners. It would take at least a year. It may not work, but, we would all know we tried.

This takes so much time and energy. That time and effort could go into helping people that want to learn. Humans can be such 'shits'.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:30 am UTC
by curtis95112
LtNOWIS wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:The point is that the police should know how to safely restrain a resisting student. The teachers probably don't.

EDIT: What the apostrophe?

Back when I was in high school, I saw a couple fights get physically broken up by teachers. It's not rocket science. In fights and various other cases, a policy of teachers not laying a finger on students would be problematic.


A resisting student that wants to harm the restrainer is different to a resisting student that wants to harm someone else. Someone very well could get hurt. That being said, I agree with you that the teachers should be able to physically restrain students. That's why I think all teachers should be trained to be able to do so safely. I don't know if they actually are though. A few posters said that special needs teachers were trained to do so (Thanks all :D ), if anyone has any more information on the subject, I'd be glad to know.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:04 pm UTC
by emceng
Red Hal wrote:That is an important point. The reason schools don't do the social interaction thing is because that should be taught by the parents. Socialising your child is one of the things that a parent should do, not the school.


This reminds me of a very interesting statement I saw from a teacher:

The root of many problems in society today - no one is acting as a parent. Parents no longer teach their children how to behave, think, or act. Teachers cannot do so because they are prevented by whining parents who don't want their children to have someone else's values. This results in children with no values at all.

We always have cared for the kid's feelings, but we also were acting in loco parentis. But, parents didn't like that so they took away our ability to act as such, but didn't do the job themselves. So when a kid misbehaves, we have no real way to act. But yet, we're expected to teach them to be civil.


Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:04 pm UTC
by Triangle_Man
emceng wrote:
Red Hal wrote:That is an important point. The reason schools don't do the social interaction thing is because that should be taught by the parents. Socialising your child is one of the things that a parent should do, not the school.


This reminds me of a very interesting statement I saw from a teacher:

The root of many problems in society today - no one is acting as a parent. Parents no longer teach their children how to behave, think, or act. Teachers cannot do so because they are prevented by whining parents who don't want their children to have someone else's values. This results in children with no values at all.

We always have cared for the kid's feelings, but we also were acting in loco parentis. But, parents didn't like that so they took away our ability to act as such, but didn't do the job themselves. So when a kid misbehaves, we have no real way to act. But yet, we're expected to teach them to be civil.



So if we aren't teaching our kids to behave anymore, than what are we teaching them?

And is the new message a good thing?

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:15 pm UTC
by Drumheller769
Back when I was in highschool (US) in the more problematic lunch periods they had some of the assistant football coaches watch the students eat. These men were big enough to pick up any 2 students one with each arm and drag them off to torture the office.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:54 am UTC
by Singa Crew
I would HATE to be in the teacher's shoes. Literally. I mean if the shoes are eggy from the egging...

And I don't think the teacher did anything wrong. Someone assaulted you with an egg, and hey, it just so happens that your (or in this case, his) job is to maintain discipline on school grounds where the assault happened! So he grabbed her and marched her to the office. What? He should have let her off and walked away with his tail between his legs and egg running down his neck?

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:10 am UTC
by Carlington
Singa Crew, I think the problem most people are having isn't the fact that he grabbed her, but the fact that he grabbed her around the neck. That's a different kettle of fish entirely - more potential to go wrong, worse consequences if it does go wrong.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:31 pm UTC
by big boss
Carlington (The Aussie) wrote:Singa Crew, I think the problem most people are having isn't the fact that he grabbed her, but the fact that he grabbed her around the neck. That's a different kettle of fish entirely - more potential to go wrong, worse consequences if it does go wrong.


Yes, but how did he grab her around the neck? If he literally grasped his fingers around her neck that would be a problem (thats a problem in almost any fight unless your fighting for your life or something) but if he grabber her by the collar of her shirt or off to the side of her neck by her shoulder (but close enough to the neck so the media could call it her "neck") thats fine because its very hard to injury some one like that. I can hardly image a school administrator doing the first restraining method I mentioned.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:08 pm UTC
by Adacore
Ulc wrote:Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.

You seriously want to comdemn an 11- or 12-year-old kid to a menial life with no education because she's screwed up as a pre-teen? I seriously doubt that's going to help her change her ways and make her develop healthy adult behaviour. I agree she's probably not suited for the school environment she's in and should be assigned to some kind of special school for disruptive pupils, maybe just a vocational program, or something similar, but removing her from any education at all in her first year of secondary schooling is not going to help anything.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:43 pm UTC
by curtis95112
big boss wrote:
Carlington (The Aussie) wrote:Singa Crew, I think the problem most people are having isn't the fact that he grabbed her, but the fact that he grabbed her around the neck. That's a different kettle of fish entirely - more potential to go wrong, worse consequences if it does go wrong.


Yes, but how did he grab her around the neck? If he literally grasped his fingers around her neck that would be a problem (thats a problem in almost any fight unless your fighting for your life or something) but if he grabber her by the collar of her shirt or off to the side of her neck by her shoulder (but close enough to the neck so the media could call it her "neck") thats fine because its very hard to injury some one like that. I can hardly image a school administrator doing the first restraining method I mentioned.

I was imagining something along the lines of a headlock.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:04 am UTC
by yurell
I was imagining something along the lines of grabbing her by the scruff of the neck, tbh.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:50 am UTC
by Lucrece
Adacore wrote:
Ulc wrote:Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.

You seriously want to comdemn an 11- or 12-year-old kid to a menial life with no education because she's screwed up as a pre-teen? I seriously doubt that's going to help her change her ways and make her develop healthy adult behaviour. I agree she's probably not suited for the school environment she's in and should be assigned to some kind of special school for disruptive pupils, maybe just a vocational program, or something similar, but removing her from any education at all in her first year of secondary schooling is not going to help anything.



So it's OK if this consistently abusive student abuses individuals that have been found guilty of abusive behavior, or other types of educators?If she's condemned to a menial life, it's a failure on a system that doesn't allow people to get into educational courses at later ages.

If she can't even respect the physical integrity of other people (and assault is exactly that), she does not have a right to be forced on the public that would have to put up with her attacks and intimidations.

What is exactly an institution for disruptive pupils other than a mime for the prison system? Vocational programs involve the same type of people she's incapable of interacting with. That is, education requires some respect and compliance with educators.

There's always this talk about how these kids need special courses of treatment. Do you have any insights into that? Successful personal experience? Seems like shoving a nebulous burden on some magically equipped "professional" we don't know about.

That burden SHOULD be on the parents to begin with, and they should bear the brunt of their failure to address their kids as they needed. Not pass it off to be somebody else's suffering.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:27 am UTC
by Ulc
Adacore wrote:You seriously want to comdemn an 11- or 12-year-old kid to a menial life with no education because she's screwed up as a pre-teen? I seriously doubt that's going to help her change her ways and make her develop healthy adult behaviour. I agree she's probably not suited for the school environment she's in and should be assigned to some kind of special school for disruptive pupils, maybe just a vocational program, or something similar, but removing her from any education at all in her first year of secondary schooling is not going to help anything.


Can I ask if you actually read the thread? if so, you would have seen that my comment arose from a misunderstanding of how the term "high school" was used, since here high school would refer to 15-18 year olds in non-compulsory education.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:51 pm UTC
by ShortChelsea
yurell wrote:I was imagining something along the lines of grabbing her by the scruff of the neck, tbh.


I imagined picking her up by the skin of her neck like you do with cats and just carrying her.
As a student in high school I wanted my teachers to do that with my peers.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:29 am UTC
by Adacore
Ulc wrote:
Adacore wrote:You seriously want to comdemn an 11- or 12-year-old kid to a menial life with no education because she's screwed up as a pre-teen? I seriously doubt that's going to help her change her ways and make her develop healthy adult behaviour. I agree she's probably not suited for the school environment she's in and should be assigned to some kind of special school for disruptive pupils, maybe just a vocational program, or something similar, but removing her from any education at all in her first year of secondary schooling is not going to help anything.


Can I ask if you actually read the thread? if so, you would have seen that my comment arose from a misunderstanding of how the term "high school" was used, since here high school would refer to 15-18 year olds in non-compulsory education.

I did read the thread, and noted there was some confusion of the 'high school' term, but I didn't connect that it was related to your post - sorry.

I still feel my point stands, in part, even if talking about late-teens (by your understanding of high school). Some kind of vocational training or more suitable educational environment would help both the kid and society as a whole better than just dumping them out into the world.

Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:14 am UTC
by Carlington
big boss wrote:
Carlington (The Aussie) wrote:Singa Crew, I think the problem most people are having isn't the fact that he grabbed her, but the fact that he grabbed her around the neck. That's a different kettle of fish entirely - more potential to go wrong, worse consequences if it does go wrong.


Yes, but how did he grab her around the neck? If he literally grasped his fingers around her neck that would be a problem (thats a problem in almost any fight unless your fighting for your life or something) but if he grabber her by the collar of her shirt or off to the side of her neck by her shoulder (but close enough to the neck so the media could call it her "neck") thats fine because its very hard to injury some one like that. I can hardly image a school administrator doing the first restraining method I mentioned.

"Most people." I didn't say that was the problem I was having. Until there's more information, I can't make a proper decision on whether I think it's right or not. I was trying to clarify why it's turned into a shitstorm, for Singa Crew's sake.