U.S. Republican Primary

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Radical_Initiator » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:47 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:In other news, Herman Cain fessed up to quoting a song from a Pokemon Movie. He claims he didn't know it was from a Pokemon movie, that he instead heard it during a montage after the 2000 Olympics that NBC put together. Whatever, we all know that Cain is a closet Pokamaniac.


Without reading the link, I am hoping the quote wasn't along the lines of "Illegal Immigrants - gotta catch 'em all!"



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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby iChef » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:43 am UTC

Obama uses Alleged Sexual Misconduct, it's Super Effective!!!

Cain has fainted!
Who will Republicans choose next?

> Romney
Paul
Gingrich
Trump
Perry

Go Perry I choose you!
Perry uses Town Hall Meeting.
Rick Perry hurt himself in the confusion.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby The Reaper » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:49 am UTC

iChef wrote:Obama uses Alleged Sexual Misconduct, it's Super Effective!!!

Cain has fainted!
Who will Republicans choose next?

> Romney
Paul
Gingrich
Trump
Perry

Go Perry I choose you!
Perry uses Town Hall Meeting.
Rick Perry hurt himself in the confusion.

Gary Johnson uses Splash Attack. It's Super Effective. The Republicans are hit for 0 Damage!

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby omgryebread » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:06 am UTC

BlueLabel wrote:Does your last statement refer to fiscal policy? I guess I'm not much of a Keynesian (or economist for that matter), but my reasons for wanting deficit reduction stem not from fiscal policy concerns; rather, I think it's important for us to stabilize our long term debt-to-GDP ratio dynamics to keep debt cheap and avoid uncertainty about our finances. It was concern about this (more specifically, inability of US lawmakers to agree on policies that will ensure this) that resulted in S&P downgrading us.
S&P downgraded us in the middle of fight over the debt ceiling, which was a stupid fight in the first place (the debt ceiling shouldn't exist). S&P downgraded us after that fight resolved, while Moody's and Fitch did not. The downgrade has not really affected the value of treasury bonds, which are still treated as basically risk-free. After the fact, I'd argue S&P looks actually somewhat foolish. We should also note that S&P was giving AAA ratings to the subprime mortgages that crashed so spectacularly.

The only reasons to avoid debt are to avoid it being harder to borrow and to avoid inflation. Both are indeed problems in the long run. Mitt Romney and the Republicans seem to think it's a problem in the short run as well, with no basis in actual fact. Meanwhile, low demand is a very serious problem right now. Republicans argue that lowering taxes or keeping them low is a solution to that. I agree that raising taxes will reduce demand. It will also harm employment. There are in fact two ways to raise demand and reduce unemployment. Lower taxes is one! But increased public spending is a vastly superior way to raise demand. The idea is that we spend a ton of money now, and then when we get employment back, we run a government surplus to pay down debt, so we can then safely deficit spend next recession.

That is what I see as the difference between deficit hawks and Keynesians. Both acknowledge that markets are cyclical and there will be down times, but Keynesian policy smooths out the cycle. Down times are reduced in severity, while admittedly, booms are reduced as well.

Of course, rich people tend to benefit more from a boom and get hurt less in a bust, (I'm counting this by living standard. Yes a billionaire is going to lose more money in a bust, but that means he'll have a smaller mansion, while a person who may lose less money also might lose their house altogether) so it's easy to see why Mitt Romney is not Keynesian.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:03 am UTC

The other difference between the deficit hawks and the Keynesians is that the draconian spending cuts that the hawks seek to impose would result in a plunge in GDP and therefore even bigger deficits.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby omgryebread » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:05 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:The other difference between the deficit hawks and the Keynesians is that the draconian spending cuts that the hawks seek to impose would result in a plunge in GDP and therefore even bigger deficits.
Yeah, there's that. Also that the cuts would actually hurt people.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Both are indeed problems in the long run. Mitt Romney and the Republicans seem to think it's a problem in the short run as well, with no basis in actual fact.
In politics, there is no long run, and so the only way to deal with long run problems is to treat them as short run problems. (Long-sightedness, of course, is not exclusive to Republicans; on climate change, the roles are reversed.)
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby omgryebread » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Both are indeed problems in the long run. Mitt Romney and the Republicans seem to think it's a problem in the short run as well, with no basis in actual fact.
In politics, there is no long run, and so the only way to deal with long run problems is to treat them as short run problems. (Long-sightedness, of course, is not exclusive to Republicans; on climate change, the roles are reversed.)
Except if you deal with debt as a short-term problem, you actually are hurting demand, which hurts revenue. So in the short term, you have a less bad deficit, but in the long run, you still have a deficit with a still-floundering economy.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Well that's just the thing. If this was just about summoning the Confidence Fairy, it would suffice to say that we need to act now to tell the world that we have a plan for the long-term deficit. But that's not what this is about. It was never about deficits. Deficits are just their method of selling terrible economic policy. If this had anything to do with the deficits, the planned reductions in federal workforce wouldn't include IRS agents.

This is about shrinking the government to a size where it can be drowned in a bathtub, and the poor with it.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Deep_Thought » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:22 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:S&P downgraded us in the middle of fight over the debt ceiling, which was a stupid fight in the first place (the debt ceiling shouldn't exist). S&P downgraded us after that fight resolved, while Moody's and Fitch did not.

Nitpicking - did they downgrade in the middle of the fight or after it had resolved? It can't be both... - End nitpicking ;)
The downgrade has not really affected the value of treasury bonds, which are still treated as basically risk-free. After the fact, I'd argue S&P looks actually somewhat foolish. We should also note that S&P was giving AAA ratings to the subprime mortgages that crashed so spectacularly.

This is indeed true. During the recent uncertainty over Europe there was talk about downgrading France and German bonds as well. At that point, the rumours were that most banks would just start treating AA+ as AAA, because they are never going to stop posting US, French and German bonds as collateral.
EsotericWombat wrote:If this had anything to do with the deficits, the planned reductions in federal workforce wouldn't include IRS agents.

Oh how true. The same happened in the UK about 5 years ago. Government started boasting about how they were firing civil servants to lower the budget, except the only department actually reducing headcount was the tax counters :(

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Aikanaro » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:20 pm UTC

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/03/9191474-paul-says-no-to-trump-joins-huntsman-in-skipping-debate?chromedomain=nbcpolitics

Don't think this has been covered yet, but Trump was going to moderate a debate between Republican candidates, and Paul and Huntsman are skipping it since they think it's an insult to the integrity of the office of the president. Yayy!
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby SpiritOfRock » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:45 am UTC

In other news, the Ronpaul is now in second place in Iowa, running just behind Gingrich. He has about a month to prove to Iowans that Newt is a career politician/evil incarnate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcdtH0Mp94

I should know what to expect from politicians but I still feel a little shocked when I see them tell a pure, unadulterated lie with a straight face. I think they take solace in the fact that journalists have lost their integrity. Thankfully, the internet exists.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:04 pm UTC

SpiritOfRock wrote:In other news, the Ronpaul is now in second place in Iowa, running just behind Gingrich. He has about a month to prove to Iowans that Newt is a career politician/evil incarnate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcdtH0Mp94

I should know what to expect from politicians but I still feel a little shocked when I see them tell a pure, unadulterated lie with a straight face. I think they take solace in the fact that journalists have lost their integrity. Thankfully, the internet exists.


It's in their best interest to lie. The media is so compliant at this point that any sort of doubt that can be sewed with a lie gives advantage to the candidate. It's how the GOP has fought things like Global Warming for years now. To steal the analogy from someone else (can't remember the source or I'd just link), a Republican candidate could come out and say "The Earth Is Flat" and the media would report it as "Candidates views on shape of Earth differ." Fox News would then either spin the story really hard or would start questioning the validity of pictures of the round Earth. The media has decided that their job is to report without thinking. It's one of the main reasons we have the current crop of GOP candidates. They're all ridiculous. Farcical even. John Huntsman, I think, is the only one with any credibility at all and even he has very little. the Ronpaul is a joke but none of the talking heads has bothered to consider his stranger views. The gold standard? Puh-leeeze.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Radical_Initiator » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm UTC

Edit: Never mind.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Роберт » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:15 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:Anyone think they'll downgrade Europe? And what would be the practical implication of that, if any, really, should they be foolish enough to do it?

Why would it be foolish of them to downgrade "Europe"? Aren't they foolish for not having downgraded most of them earlier?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Deep_Thought » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:20 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:Anyone think they'll downgrade Europe? And what would be the practical implication of that, if any, really, should they be foolish enough to do it?

To be honest, they probably should have already done it, and done it over a year ago. My personal biggest criticism of the ratings agencies is that they always seem to be playing catch-up.

When I read that news last night, I thought that the likely result would be a horses head in the bed of the S&P chief executive. However, today the German finance minister has essentially said "Good, this is the kick up the arse Europe needs to sort things out". I kind of agree with him. Downgrading the US should have been a wake-up call to Congress and the Senate as well*.

*See how I almost tied it back into the topic there?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

Some of my best friends, coworkers, and former classmates are currently working as journalists. None of them are compliant, idiots, pushovers, or corrupt. Tone down the spurious generalizations, okay?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:10 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Some of my best friends, coworkers, and former classmates are currently working as journalists. None of them are compliant, idiots, pushovers, or corrupt. Tone down the spurious generalizations, okay?


Fair. I have journalist friends as well and they work hard and report with integrity. I guess I shouldn't just use the term "Media" since it's so inclusive and instead say something like National Media, Cable News Networks, or Fox News. You know, the places where the majority of people get their news (sad!).

Edit to prevent double post: We were talking about voter fraud earlier in this thread. The Republicans are the ones worried about it but by and large, they're also the ones committing the fraud. Here is just the most recent instance of spurious robocalls made in the name of suppressing the vote.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-schurick-robocalls-verdict-20111206,0,7659803.story
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:16 pm UTC

SpiritOfRock wrote:In other news, the Ronpaul is now in second place in Iowa, running just behind Gingrich. He has about a month to prove to Iowans that Newt is a career politician/evil incarnate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcdtH0Mp94
Notice the lack of timestamps on those videos, so you could see if those reflect changing opinions / facts over time. (For example, I would suspect the Gingrich climate change videos played the older one first, but I don't know if that's the case.)

I did enjoy the the Ronpaul eagle at the end, though.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:58 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
SpiritOfRock wrote:In other news, the Ronpaul is now in second place in Iowa, running just behind Gingrich. He has about a month to prove to Iowans that Newt is a career politician/evil incarnate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAcdtH0Mp94


Notice the lack of timestamps on those videos, so you could see if those reflect changing opinions / facts over time. (For example, I would suspect the Gingrich climate change videos played the older one first, but I don't know if that's the case.)

I did enjoy the the Ronpaul eagle at the end, though.


Newt Gingrich believed in anthropogenic climate change in 2008.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:31 pm UTC

Apparently Newt is saying he'll choose John Bolton as Secretary of State if he gets elected. Could it be that Newt realizes that people are taking him seriously now and is trying to scuttle his own campaign (again)? After all, being President is hard work.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Apparently Newt is saying he'll choose John Bolton as Secretary of State if he gets elected. Could it be that Newt realizes that people are taking him seriously now and is trying to scuttle his own campaign (again)? After all, being President is hard work.


From a conservative hard-liner view Bolton is ideal for Sec. of State. He wouldn't promise foreign aid, and would work to pull back aid programs already in place, thus minimizing government expenditures going to other nations. Greater isolationism means less overseas government spending and less chance of getting the U.S. entangled in foreign agreements, like those pesky Kyoto Protocols.

Of course this would be more problematic in the general, but that's actually the beauty of declaring J.B. as the Sec. of State rather than say nailing down his V.P. running mate. Gingrich can change his mind about cabinet appointments right up until he submits them to congress. He can use the cabinet appointments to appeal to the hard-liners in the primaries then 'change his mind" after the primaries to select more moderate cabinet officials, and neither list has to look anything like the actual list of cabinet submissions if he's elected in the general.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby EsotericWombat » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:57 pm UTC

You don't get to call Bolton an isolationist. Not when his answer to just about any foreign policy question is "Bomb Iran."
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:You don't get to call Bolton an isolationist. Not when his answer to just about any foreign policy question is "Bomb Iran."


He's isolationist with regards to new and ongoing foreign obligations. I'm not convinced that his desire to bomb Iran is out of an actual interventionist agenda, or simply that Iran has the most nationally-sanctioned anti-U.S. rhetoric and it would be a lot easier to ignore Iran (along with the rest of the world) if it was reduced to a radioactive silicate-glass crater. Y'know, why be diplomatic when there's jobs to be gained in the Military-Industrial-Complex.

That said, my point isn't so much about Bolton's credentials (or lack thereof) as a Sec. of State, but rather that he's ideologically appealing to the hardliners that seem to be driving the the Republican primaries, however nominating him for S. of S. is a perfect throwaway position that allows N.G. to list someone else in the general that make N.G. look more moderate for the general election, which making the leap from appealing to party voters in the primaries to appealing to the broader population in the general is one of the more difficult feats of political gymnastics.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:41 am UTC

This republican primary is a joke, if it wasn't so serious. =\ Gingrich a front runner? wtf.
Man, my prediction that Romney would seal the nomination quickly in Iowa is going down the drain. They might even have a long drawn out primary fight.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:20 am UTC

Dauric wrote:I'm not convinced that his desire to bomb Iran is out of an actual interventionist agenda
:|
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Zamfir » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:17 am UTC

I think Dauric has a point. Isolationism is not the same as pacifism. It can also be an attitude of drawing lines in the sand, saying "this is what we will we accept of the outside world and no more", without much interest in discussing and negotiating an international order outside of those lines. Bombing countries to punish them for transgressions fits well in such a framework.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:28 am UTC

SpiritOfRock wrote:In other news, the Ronpaul is now in second place in Iowa, running just behind Gingrich. He has about a month to prove to Iowans that Newt is a career politician/evil incarnate.

I actually read some commentary that it's expected that if Paul does well enough in the primaries- which coming in 2nd in Iowa would likely ensure- but fails to win the nomination (and I would peg his chances at approximately snowball's chance in hell) that he will run as an independent / libertarian in the general election.

Considering that he seems to be becoming more visible this cycle, I imagine that if he did do so, it'd be fairly damaging to the eventual Republican nominee. Imagine if he was able to get 3% of the vote- not implausible- and that two thirds of his votes were people that wouldn't have voted for Obama or the Republican nominee. That'd be a siphon of 1% of the vote that'd probably be more or less completely from the Republican, which could be more than enough to flip the perennial swing states of Ohio or Florida.

In other words, if he wants to, he could become the Nader of 2012.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dauric wrote:I'm not convinced that his desire to bomb Iran is out of an actual interventionist agenda
:|


To be interventionist would imply that Bolton wanted to actually spend the time and money to establish a democratic government. Bolton doesn't want to spend any money on actual reconstruction, he just wants to glass Iran so they're not a threat to U.S. security through nuclear programs or terrorist funding.

Zamfir wrote:I think Dauric has a point. Isolationism is not the same as pacifism. It can also be an attitude of drawing lines in the sand, saying "this is what we will we accept of the outside world and no more", without much interest in discussing and negotiating an international order outside of those lines. Bombing countries to punish them for transgressions fits well in such a framework.


Well said.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:23 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:To be interventionist would imply that Bolton wanted to actually spend the time and money to establish a democratic government.
To me, to be interventionist implies that he wants to intervene. One can be interventionist without being a nation-builder; I suspect if you had identified him as against nation-building that would have gone over more smoothly.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Griffin » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

So he's deadset against nation building and interventionism just like Bush Junior was, then?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Zamfir » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:06 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dauric wrote:To be interventionist would imply that Bolton wanted to actually spend the time and money to establish a democratic government.
To me, to be interventionist implies that he wants to intervene. One can be interventionist without being a nation-builder; I suspect if you had identified him as against nation-building that would have gone over more smoothly.

But intervention implies involvement in local affairs. It means 'come between', and the suggestion is that you are settings things right. Intervention on behalf of some local group has become such a standard excuse for strong-arming that 'intervention' is starting to become a euphemism for any kind of action. But Bolton's notoriety is exactly that he doesn't wrap his intentions for US action in excuses of helping local people.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

Isolationism is, as far as I perceive it, indifference to the concerns or for that matter existence of the rest of the world. It's exceptionalism on crack - we're $deity's special country, you got a problem with what we're doing go fuck yourself. It's perfectly compatible with bulldozing people said country doesn't like, when they can be perceived/portrayed as a threat.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Interventionism:
Interventionism is a term for a policy of non-defensive (proactive) activity undertaken by a nation-state, or other geo-political jurisdiction of a lesser or greater nature, to manipulate an economy or society.


Bolton is in to preemption, not intervention. He's all for striking before our enemies strike, not manipulating their economy or society to produce a certain outcome. Bolton's rhetoric is about maintaining the safety and security of the U.S., and doing it to others before they have a chance to do it to us.

The thing is that this fits well with the Republican platforms of a strong military and low government expenses. Just destroying Iran's nuclear infrastructure, or just glassing the entire nation, is cheap compared to trying to reform their government and change their society, while still 'demonstrating the need' to have a military that can demolish anything and everything outside the U.S. borders. This is why for the primaries Bolton as Secretary of State is appealing to Republican primary voters.

-Again- to try to stay on topic: The thing is that it's not a binding thing for Gingrich to say. He could (and probably will if he gets the party nomination) change his appointee list to something more moderate to appeal to independents and right-leaning democrats for the general election, and even then that list for the general election wouldn't be binding either.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Isolationism is, as far as I perceive it, indifference to the concerns or for that matter existence of the rest of the world. It's exceptionalism on crack - we're $deity's special country, you got a problem with what we're doing go fuck yourself. It's perfectly compatible with bulldozing people said country doesn't like, when they can be perceived/portrayed as a threat.

I think it's just the opposite. We believe all countries and peoples are equal, so you keep your house in order and we'll keep ours. There is absolutely no reason why we should be using trade, foreign aid, or military force to influence and effect other countries because doing any of these things implies that our way of life is better than yours and you need our help to fix your shit. It's the Good Fences make Good Neighbors mentality.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:33 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
netcrusher88 wrote:Isolationism is, as far as I perceive it, indifference to the concerns or for that matter existence of the rest of the world. It's exceptionalism on crack - we're $deity's special country, you got a problem with what we're doing go fuck yourself. It's perfectly compatible with bulldozing people said country doesn't like, when they can be perceived/portrayed as a threat.

I think it's just the opposite. We believe all countries and peoples are equal, so you keep your house in order and we'll keep ours. There is absolutely no reason why we should be using trade, foreign aid, or military force to influence and effect other countries because doing any of these things implies that our way of life is better than yours and you need our help to fix your shit. It's the Good Fences make Good Neighbors mentality.


Isolationism can be motivated by either ideal.

When someone's advocating preemptive nuking of a nation because that nation has hostile rhetoric and could pose a threat, it looks a hell of a lot more like the former than the latter.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:52 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Isolationism can be motivated by either ideal.

When someone's advocating preemptive nuking of a nation because that nation has hostile rhetoric and could pose a threat, it looks a hell of a lot more like the former than the latter.

See, to me, that's not isolationism, that's blow-shit-up-ism. Isolationism is what Switzerland does. Wanton military strikes aren't isolationist, they're just stupid. Bolton can be described as militaristic, and crazy, but I think calling him isolationist is an insult to isolationists.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Dauric » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:04 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Dauric wrote:Isolationism can be motivated by either ideal.

When someone's advocating preemptive nuking of a nation because that nation has hostile rhetoric and could pose a threat, it looks a hell of a lot more like the former than the latter.

See, to me, that's not isolationism, that's blow-shit-up-ism. Isolationism is what Switzerland does. Wanton military strikes aren't isolationist, they're just stupid. Bolton can be described as militaristic, and crazy, but I think calling him isolationist is an insult to isolationists.


You're making the assumption that someone can only belong to one -ism at a time, and that all -isms are mutually exclusive. Oddly enough people are more complicated than that.

Bolton is an isolationist in the sense that he doesn't want to spend U.S. resources on any other nation ever. His response to the AIDS epidemic in Africa isn't to nuke Africa, it's to leave them to their own devices and if the African nations can get their shit together enough to afford to buy anti-retroviral drugs in the U.S. then they can buy them on the market like anyone else, but the U.S. Govt. isn't going to step in to help the exchange. It's a decidedly more hostile "Let them eat cake" isolationist attitude than the "Good fences make good neighbors" attitude you reference.

Again, both are isolationist, just driven by different ideals.

His response to outside threats is preemption. He remains isolationist in his preemption in that he doesn't give a damn about reconstruction afterward. Nuke the fuckers and let them figure out how to recover on their own, as long as the safety and sanctity of the U.S. is assured the rest doesn't matter.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

Good fences only make good neighbors if your neighbor doesn't use the fact that he can't see your driveway as an excuse to not give you a jump start.

No, isolationism is more "let them eat cake" than "good fences make good neighbors". It's a policy of disregard, not high regard.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:33 am UTC

Dauric wrote:Bolton is in to preemption, not intervention. He's all for striking before our enemies strike
:|

What do you think the words "non-defensive" or "proactive" mean?

netcrusher88 wrote:No, isolationism is more "let them eat cake" than "good fences make good neighbors". It's a policy of disregard, not high regard.
The primary motivation for practical isolationism is "war is almost the worst thing that could happen." It's not clear to me that that's disregard.
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