Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:58 pm UTC

The Guy Fawkes mask has become a general Libertarian/Anarchist/Anti-government symbol. Anonymous has also adopted it, as apparently those view align with them well.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:00 pm UTC

Belial wrote:New Goal for Occupy Wall Street: blow up the british parliament.

Why? Umm...

::shrug::

There's people protesting in London too. Not sure if they have more reason, but at least more opportunity.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby addams » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:08 pm UTC

Virtual_Aardvark wrote:OKAY. HERE'S THE DEAL.

The fires, rock throwing and whatnot that resulted in 70 something arrests were the "anarchists", probably the Spartacates. The GA actually reached majority consensus to not support their actions. I was present at one of the terminals and was among the majority vote to NOT approach police. We have also reached an anti-vandalism consensus. In the work up to the march there were numerous warnings about agents provacateurs and instructions to not participate in violence or vandalism.

Broken windows: splinter group
Spray paint: splinter
Fires: splinter
Police baiting: splinter
Arrests: splinter
Violence: splinter

You may no longer assume that any violence or destruction of property that occurs during an Occupy Oakland event is us. We do not support vandalism. We do not support police confrontation. We do not support violence.

And no. Putting up barricades does not violate protesters rights from a legal standpoint. It is still an act of aggression and was not necessarily correct protocol.

I'm still viewing the strike as a success. Please understand that the perpetrators of violence and mayhem were in the extreme minority even before we voted against those actions.

We are frikken peaceful. Have been all along.


I believe you. I know that there are people that are being paid to look like you and behave in ways that would fill you with shame.

Some of the people that are standing with you are not your friends. You can hold the hand of a person that is not your friend. I believe you. You are peaceful. Some people come to your events to mess things up, because, they are three dimensional trolls. Some people come to your events to mess things up, because, they are being paid to.

Honey; Not all the DOD, Department of Defence, money is being spent in the middle east.
http://www.defense.gov/
Homeland Security likes to have something to do on a Friday night, too.
http://www.dhs.gov/index.shtm

I am so sorry that this is going on. It is so difficult.
Is it time for the persons on the flora to look back at some fiction that came from the last time we had a paradigm shift?

http://www.taketheleap.com/define.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

Will the weather beat the people? It gets cold.

Disorganized disenchanted people have little chance against an organized force that uses chaos as one of many weapons.

I am far away from you. I can not help you. But; The Church has ways that may be of use to you. Tools. Intelectual tools and tools of order. The Church has a really cool thing that they do. They turn to one another and say, "Peace be with you."

"Peace be with you."
"And; Also with you."

Claps hands and jumps up and down. Such a nice thing to say.
We The People Want Peace. We the people want to live in a world that does not shame us.

The Church also has another cool thing that they do. They eat together. It is not much. They say, 'It is the thought that counts'.

Yes. This is about money and control. Who has the money and the control? Who do those guys work for? Us?

Homeland Security will secure its job. Even if it has to play both sides of the board. Be careful. Strive to be Happy. Hold Hands and Stick Together.

Peace Be With You!
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

....
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:40 pm UTC

Garm and Jessica, I'm right here, you can address your opinions of my statements or arguments to me, instead of pointing your agreements to Belial.
Belial wrote:That being another case where the order was given to clear a camp, they were going to get raided, and nothing the protesters did or didn't do short of picking up and abandoning the camp was going to prevent that from happening.

We aren't talking about a camp though, we're talking about a protest. If the Oakland cops had an order to clear a camp by a certain date, then I'm not sure why you're mentioning this in regards to the Occupy Oakland march.
Belial wrote:Which goes to another point: generally you don't bring riot cops to something that is not a riot and not really even approaching a riot unless you intend to make it a riot.

Ok, this is your opinion. I disagree with it. I think you bring to the situation whatever you think may be required, and if you suspect the situation may turn into a riot, you bring riot gear.
Belial wrote:The protest was peaceful before they showed up.

This is your opinion, and I disagree with it. It's strange you would say this, considering about a page ago (or so?) we seemed to reach a consensus that neither the cops nor the protestors were being entirely peaceful here.
Jessica wrote:Because, Iz (et all) is saying that the protesters are mostly to blame, and we're saying the police are mostly to blame.

That's charming of you to try and claim, but I've never said the protesters are mostly to blame.
Garm wrote:Because it shifts the calculus of violence onto the protesters which allows Iz to continue to "disagree with their tactics while supporting the movement."

This is just one of the many tactics that I disagree with, and, as I've repeatedly stated in the face of you, Jessica, PM, and Belial's intentional misrepresentation of my opinions, I don't think this shifts the blame onto the protesters.

Out of curiosity, is there any reason why we aren't discussing the fact that the most recent Occupy Oakland protest, a 'success' insofar as it's numbers and strike, resulted in many acts of arson and property damage? Isn't it in Occupy Oaklands best interests to start cultivating an image of peaceful protest?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Jessica » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:57 pm UTC

I agree with you Mike. That's just weird...

Izawwlgood wrote:Out of curiosity, is there any reason why we aren't discussing the fact that the most recent Occupy Oakland protest, a 'success' insofar as it's numbers and strike, resulted in many acts of arson and property damage? Isn't it in Occupy Oaklands best interests to start cultivating an image of peaceful protest


There's a reason I haven't been addressing you. It's because you say things like this.
What do you think we have been talking about?

Occupy Oakland considers the strike to be a success, because the strike (which lasted most of the day) was able to pull many thousands (30,000) of people into the streets in support of it's cause. It shut down the 5th largest port in the US. These are very good, and really important goals that were accomplished. Throughout the day, it was a peaceful. Most of the 30,000 people just marched and chanted. The police in regular uniform helped them along on the outside, like they should. Things went really well. Yes, there were isolated incidents that happened during the day, and when the occupy people actually saw the damage, they distanced themselves from it (the 99% did not do this sign on broken glass, for example).

There were problems after most of the people left around 12 at night, and people started looking for crash space, and blaring loud music, and having a party. Then the police came in, people wouldn't leave, and shit went down.

It was a very successful protest. It had some problems, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a success. The conflict isn't what they're focusing on. The conflict happened, and people aren't happy about it.

I'm kind of out of steam. So, whatever.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:19 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:There were problems after most of the people left around 12 at night, and people started looking for crash space, and blaring loud music, and having a party. Then the police came in, people wouldn't leave, and shit went down. It was a very successful protest. It had some problems, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a success. The conflict isn't what they're focusing on. The conflict happened, and people aren't happy about it.

Oh ok. As long as we're in agreement that acts of vandalism happened, that we aren't happy about it, and that it happened because of the Occupy movement, I suppose we can all just focus on the fact that a bunch of people think it was a success. Cool.

If your movement allows this stuff to happen concomitantly with your protests, the world will focus on this because it represents your movement.

And you should start addressing me Jessica.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:00 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I agree with you Mike. That's just weird...

One of the benefits of not taking an extreme viewpoint is that anyone can find at least some of the things you say agreeable :) (To make sure I'm not offending, I don't think your viewpoint is extreme)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:And you should start addressing me Jessica.


I feel like this sentence needs punctuation. Should Jessica start addressing you, personally, or should Jessica start addressing you as Jessica (which would soon become very confusing), or is "me" in the form of a quaint possessive, like "Oh, that's me favorite armoire!", in which case you have an object of some sort that you call "Jessica" that Jessica needs to start addressing?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Nordic Einar » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:23 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:And you should start addressing me Jessica.


I feel like this sentence needs punctuation. Should Jessica start addressing you, personally, or should Jessica start addressing you as Jessica (which would soon become very confusing), or is "me" in the form of a quaint possessive, like "Oh, that's me favorite armoire!", in which case you have an object of some sort that you call "Jessica" that Jessica needs to start addressing?


Best post in the entire thread.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Triangle_Man » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

I really should be working right now, but somehow I don't have the energy.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:48 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:We aren't talking about a camp though, we're talking about a protest. If the Oakland cops had an order to clear a camp by a certain date, then I'm not sure why you're mentioning this in regards to the Occupy Oakland march.


Yeah, I've been getting the sense you're confused about events. The violent clash with the tear gas and the frag grenades and scott olsen getting his head hell of cracked? Happened at the camp. There was a march a couple days before the raid, which is when the chase deposit slip thing happened, and one the day after, in response to the raid. Both were basically nonviolent. Except maybe some folks yelled at some cops.

So...yeah?

Triangle_Man wrote:Apparently, Occupy Vancouver wants to be a separate country?

Again, this can't end well.


I like how they don't attribute that opinion to anyone in particular, just "protesters". I'm sure one can find someone to say any stupid thing you like.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Triangle_Man » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

I'm still hoping that that's not the general feeling in Occupy Vancouver, because I am a little uneasy about a movement that declares itself exempt from Canadian Law and that the piece of land it choose to occupy is somehow separate from the rest of Canada.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby natraj » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:09 am UTC

Belial wrote:I like how they don't attribute that opinion to anyone in particular, just "protesters". I'm sure one can find someone to say any stupid thing you like.


I had a guy at camp the other day explain to me how Massachusetts' universal health care was a) killing tons of people because death panels, b) available in every state and c) killing even more people because Massachusetts was lying to the other states about being able to use their health care, so people didn't have access to healthcare since they didn't know they could be on MassHealth. (Even though MassHealth is terrible and death panels.)

When I tried to explain that actually every other state did not have access to universal health care he started screaming at me "Why do you have to always argue? That's just like a f-ing woman. Always talking back."

... maybe the protesters hate health care. And also women.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Radical_Initiator » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:17 am UTC

natraj wrote:
Belial wrote:I like how they don't attribute that opinion to anyone in particular, just "protesters". I'm sure one can find someone to say any stupid thing you like.


I had a guy at camp the other day explain to me how Massachusetts' universal health care was a) killing tons of people because death panels, b) available in every state and c) killing even more people because Massachusetts was lying to the other states about being able to use their health care, so people didn't have access to healthcare since they didn't know they could be on MassHealth. (Even though MassHealth is terrible and death panels.)

When I tried to explain that actually every other state did not have access to universal health care he started screaming at me "Why do you have to always argue? That's just like a f-ing woman. Always talking back."

... maybe the protesters hate health care. And also women.


I'm going to go to a protest just to see if I can get one of them to talk about the secret CIA shortwave signals that they pick up using the metal plates in their skulls. Then I will claim that the OWS movement is actually manned by sentient radio equipment.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby yurell » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:25 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:The Guy Fawkes mask has become a general Libertarian/Anarchist/Anti-government symbol. Anonymous has also adopted it, as apparently those view align with them well.


Because nothing says anarchy like trying to install a Catholic dictatorship ...
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby PeterCai » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:40 am UTC

yurell wrote:
Dark567 wrote:The Guy Fawkes mask has become a general Libertarian/Anarchist/Anti-government symbol. Anonymous has also adopted it, as apparently those view align with them well.

Because nothing says anarchy like trying to install a Catholic dictatorship ...

The mask is not from the historical Guy Fawkes, but the comic V for Vendetta.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby yurell » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:48 am UTC

Big stones on the street are ignorable, its the little ones that get stuck in your shoe.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:50 am UTC

PeterCai wrote:
yurell wrote:
Dark567 wrote:The Guy Fawkes mask has become a general Libertarian/Anarchist/Anti-government symbol. Anonymous has also adopted it, as apparently those view align with them well.

Because nothing says anarchy like trying to install a Catholic dictatorship ...

The mask is not from the historical Guy Fawkes, but the comic V for Vendetta.

Who was wearing the historical Guy Fawkes mask because he too was trying to blow up parliament.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Jesse » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:09 am UTC

mike-l wrote:
PeterCai wrote:
yurell wrote:
Dark567 wrote:The Guy Fawkes mask has become a general Libertarian/Anarchist/Anti-government symbol. Anonymous has also adopted it, as apparently those view align with them well.

Because nothing says anarchy like trying to install a Catholic dictatorship ...

The mask is not from the historical Guy Fawkes, but the comic V for Vendetta.

Who was wearing the historical Guy Fawkes mask because he too was trying to blow up parliament.


Right, but for a different motive than the orig. Guy Fawkes.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby yurell » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:16 am UTC

I thought comic V was trying to blow up the PM's residence, to end his fascist government in the name of anarchy? Comic V and movie V both stand for different things, which in turn is different to Guy Fawkes, which makes wearing those masks irritating to me.
Call it a pet peeve, if you will.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Cleverbeans » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:10 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I'm still hoping that that's not the general feeling in Occupy Vancouver, because I am a little uneasy about a movement that declares itself exempt from Canadian Law and that the piece of land it choose to occupy is somehow separate from the rest of Canada.


Really? Quebec's been doing it for years. :lol:
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:34 am UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:I feel like this sentence needs punctuation.

You're right, although it's pretty obvious what I'm saying if you look at Jessica's previous post, and take my comment in context:
[And] You should start addressing me, Jessica.


Belial wrote:Yeah, I've been getting the sense you're confused about events.

If the clash happened at the Plaza, then the only thing this changes is the notion that the police came expecting the possibility of uncooperative protestors refusing to leave, and reacted poorly. The video's that I've seen of the event, including the officer tossing a flashbang, happened on what appears to be a street, not in a park. This doesn't mean that the cops went looking for a fight, it means they went with orders to clear the camp.

But regardless, you're trying to make it appear as though there were a bunch of peaceful protestors camping out, and out of the shadows, a line of gestapo come in and start throwing bombs at them. If you watch any video on the event, you can see the cops standing behind barricades, the Occupiers MARCHING places, and heckling the cops behind the barricades, and finally, the cops using the gear they brought. Your interpretation of this event sequence is not the same as mine if you are claiming what you are.

Also, I'm not sure what kind of grenade it was, but I'm fairly confident the OPD isn't throwing frag grenades.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:39 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Jesse » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:36 am UTC

yurell wrote:I thought comic V was trying to blow up the PM's residence, to end his fascist government in the name of anarchy? Comic V and movie V both stand for different things, which in turn is different to Guy Fawkes, which makes wearing those masks irritating to me.
Call it a pet peeve, if you will.


Guy Fawkes was not all about the anarchy, he was all about the Catholicism. That is the point I was making. Comic/Movie V was about fighting a fascist government in favour of the 'people' or whatever. Guy Fawkes was more about installing the religion of his choice, and killing some Protestants.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:40 am UTC

What I'm trying to get across is that we don't endorse violence. All members of Occupy Oakland have been encouraged to photograph and report to the police any acts of vandalism and to try and use whatever means that are safe and nonviolent to stop it.

On that note I'm 4'11" and a woman. Who am I going to stop? The other day I was marching with mostly small women and young people. I'm not confident in my ability to not get hurt. People in the movement will allow themselves to be voted down if they want to confront police. People seeking violence wont. I intend to stay safe and avoid confrontation.

I don't like you saying that it's our fault the black blocs are using us as an excuse for violence. This happens to every large movement and there is only so much that can be done about it. We're trying. We've seperated ourselves publicly from the violence. We are reporting criminal activity to the police (at our own risk I might add). We clean up what we see that's damaged. What more?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:44 am UTC

Cleverbeans wrote:
Triangle_Man wrote:I'm still hoping that that's not the general feeling in Occupy Vancouver, because I am a little uneasy about a movement that declares itself exempt from Canadian Law and that the piece of land it choose to occupy is somehow separate from the rest of Canada.


Really? Quebec's been doing it for years. :lol:


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! :lol:

I see what you did there, Cleverbeans, and it was pretty damn funny.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:45 am UTC

mike-l wrote:....


His posts normally make more sense if you imagine them being sung by Bob Marley.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:45 am UTC

Virtual_Aardvark wrote:What I'm trying to get across is that we don't endorse violence. All members of Occupy Oakland have been encouraged to photograph and report to the police any acts of vandalism and to try and use whatever means that are safe and nonviolent to stop it.

And that's fine and good, but I'm pretty sure the Tea Party didn't stand for reducing gay rights and bringing God back to the government when it started.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby yurell » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:59 am UTC

Jesse wrote:Guy Fawkes was not all about the anarchy, he was all about the Catholicism. That is the point I was making. Comic/Movie V was about fighting a fascist government in favour of the 'people' or whatever. Guy Fawkes was more about installing the religion of his choice, and killing some Protestants.


I know, I was talking about V from the comic.
V from comic — anarchy vs fascism
V from movie — liberalism vs conservative totalitarian dictatorship
Guy Fawkes — Catholic dictatorship vs protestant 'democracy'

Edit: I should add that my understanding of the comic comes second-hand, not having read it myself
Last edited by yurell on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:17 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:15 am UTC

Found this story that clears up some of the stuff from other stories I'd posted earlier.

For example, the person who was quoted as saying OV wouldn't recognize city authority is an individual named Kiki. So it was just one person instead of the entire group, and this may or may not reflect the sentiment of the group as a whole.

Meanwhile, the sentiment in the city seems to be 'you guys have made your point, now pack up and move on'. Also, people accusing the protestors of being anarchists, which is kind of a negative thing to be seen as in this city.

I am beginning to suspect that the protests have reached the point where people are not getting the intended message and are getting the strong desire for the thing to simply come to an end. I'm fairly sure this isn't a good thing.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
Jesse wrote:Guy Fawkes was not all about the anarchy, he was all about the Catholicism. That is the point I was making. Comic/Movie V was about fighting a fascist government in favour of the 'people' or whatever. Guy Fawkes was more about installing the religion of his choice, and killing some Protestants.


I know, I was talking about V from the comic.
V from comic — anarchy vs fascism
V from movie — liberalism vs conservative totalitarian dictatorship
Guy Fawkes — Catholic dictatorship vs protestant 'democracy'

Edit: I should add that my understanding of the comic comes second-hand, not having read it myself


V from comic - terrorist
V from movie - terrorist
Guy Fawkes - terrorist

Wearing Guy Fawkes masks at a 'peaceful protest' - not convincing.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Yakk » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

Is it possible that someone might pick a different thing that the mask symbolizes, like revolution and/or opposing oppression, rather than the one in particular you happen to choose, and that interpretation might be valid?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

There are lots of symbols of fighting oppression and revolution, they're choosing one that has been repeatedly been used by terrorists. Anonymous used them as well. Anonymous are cyber terrorists.

Why not make stylized Gandhi or MLK masks? (These have the bonus of being of people who were successful)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

Man, but gandhi was all defying authorities and breaking the law and inconveniencing folk. Those aren't kosher tactics I hear.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dark567 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

I despise Gandhi.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:27 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Man, but gandhi was all defying authorities and breaking the law and inconveniencing folk. Those aren't kosher tactics I hear.

Except one of the calling cards Gandi's various protests was that they didn't inconvenience anyone, but empowered the people he was advocating for. He didn't protest British textiles by smashing British businesses, and I dunno, have you heard of the, you know, salt march?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:10 pm UTC

Inconvenienced the fuck out of the british. Broke plenty of laws. Actively defied authorities.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:25 pm UTC

For the record, I'm fine with inconveniencing people, and peaceful lawbreaking (as protest). My issue is with violence and safety hazards.

(Also for the record, I have no problem with them wearing the Guy Fawkes masks, I just think it hurts their message. They're losing support, and I don't think this is helping)
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby The Reaper » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:26 pm UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... A820111104
Brian Kelly, who co-owns a brew pub with Sabeghi, said his business partner served as an Army Ranger in Iraq and Afghanistan. He said Sabeghi told him he was arrested and beaten by a group of policemen as he was leaving the protest to go home.

"He told me he was in the hospital with a lacerated spleen and that the cops had jumped him," Kelly said. "They put him in jail, and he told them he was injured, and they denied him medical treatment for about 18 hours."

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby natraj » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:27 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Except one of the calling cards Gandi's various protests was that they didn't inconvenience anyone, but empowered the people he was advocating for.



Yeah, Izawwlgood, maybe you are forgetting the disobedience part of civil disobedience. Someone who has repeatedly complained about how bad it is that the protests are inconvenient is superbly hypocritical or superbly ignorant of Indian history to hold Gandhi up as an example of Doing It Right.

Also, civil disobedience aside, I really loathe it when people hold up Gandhi and MLK as examples of people who successfully achieved X goal through nonviolent civil disobedience while ignoring the other, also important activists during the civil rights movement or Indian independence who were militant as heck and without whom the movements would likely also not have succeeded.

But, no, you only get recognition if you are doing it in a way that is super polite to your oppressors.

India would still be a colony if not for the violent resistors, too.

You can't (at least not without extreme disingenuousness) look at the civil rights movement and say MLK achieved it all and ignore Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.

I've stated, and I will hold to, that I disagree with the people aligning themselves with the Occupy movement and doing violence. For the record, though, this is not because I think violent revolution is inherently a terrible thing; it's just because I don't think its place is among people who have expressly agreed to hold to a nonviolent ideology. But there are places where violent resistance is also appropriate.
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