Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:47 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:stevey_frac, have you considered getting a job as production worker? Or help organize a strong union for desk workers?


Because... Long term.. those unions really helped those autoworkers... right? I mean... just look at how few of them there are getting to be! And look how many of those jobs they are shipping to low cost geographies! Ya... sign me right up! /sarcasm

I pointed it out, not because I want my sector to become grossly overpaid, but because it's quite clearly unsustainable, and the unions have and will continue to bite themselves in the ass. They've distorted the market and now their members will pay for the market correction, and likely... overcorrection, when all their jobs get moved to mexico, brazil, and China. Mark my words... there will come a day when the north american auto industry is much like the British one.. Which is to say, virtually non-existent. And when that happens, I will point, and laugh at the unions that made it happen.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:04 am UTC

stevey_frac wrote:
Zamfir wrote:stevey_frac, have you considered getting a job as production worker? Or help organize a strong union for desk workers?


Because... Long term.. those unions really helped those autoworkers... right? I mean... just look at how few of them there are getting to be! And look how many of those jobs they are shipping to low cost geographies! Ya... sign me right up! /sarcasm

I pointed it out, not because I want my sector to become grossly overpaid, but because it's quite clearly unsustainable, and the unions have and will continue to bite themselves in the ass. They've distorted the market and now their members will pay for the market correction, and likely... overcorrection, when all their jobs get moved to mexico, brazil, and China. Mark my words... there will come a day when the north american auto industry is much like the British one.. Which is to say, virtually non-existent. And when that happens, I will point, and laugh at the unions that made it happen.


But see, that move to offshore the jobs already happened. Now the big three are bringing those jobs back with help from the unions. Which says to me that the unions have learned.

What's the problem with demanding a middle class wage? 56k/year is a good middle class living and nothing more.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Prefanity » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:49 am UTC

Garm wrote:
stevey_frac wrote:
Zamfir wrote:stevey_frac, have you considered getting a job as production worker? Or help organize a strong union for desk workers?


Because... Long term.. those unions really helped those autoworkers... right? I mean... just look at how few of them there are getting to be! And look how many of those jobs they are shipping to low cost geographies! Ya... sign me right up! /sarcasm

I pointed it out, not because I want my sector to become grossly overpaid, but because it's quite clearly unsustainable, and the unions have and will continue to bite themselves in the ass. They've distorted the market and now their members will pay for the market correction, and likely... overcorrection, when all their jobs get moved to mexico, brazil, and China. Mark my words... there will come a day when the north american auto industry is much like the British one.. Which is to say, virtually non-existent. And when that happens, I will point, and laugh at the unions that made it happen.


But see, that move to offshore the jobs already happened. Now the big three are bringing those jobs back with help from the unions. Which says to me that the unions have learned.

What's the problem with demanding a middle class wage? 56k/year is a good middle class living and nothing more.


Living a comfortable middle class lifestyle is simply Un-American. It is a much better solution to toil away in an underpaid industry hoping one day everyone will be kicked down a few pay grades.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:48 am UTC

Garm wrote:
But see, that move to offshore the jobs already happened. Now the big three are bringing those jobs back with help from the unions. Which says to me that the unions have learned.

What's the problem with demanding a middle class wage? 56k/year is a good middle class living and nothing more.



Nothing wrong with 56k / year. But I see no reason to believe that when the economy recovers.. as it will do eventually.. that the unions won't start preaching their same old message, and doing the same old shit. Right now.. they have to take those pay cuts, or the Big Three will simply pack up and leave... or even pack up and go out of business... When that threat is no longer there....

I don' think they've learned shit.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:07 am UTC

When the threat is gone, then why shouldn't wages rise again? What's the point of working in an industry where they cut wages in bad times, but don't grow them in good times?

If your point is that this keeps the company close to the edge, then yeah, that's a risk. But if unions don't keep a company close to the edge for their own profit, others will often do it instead. If workers accept lower wages, higher management will take credit for the higher profitability and cash it out as bonus to themselves. If there are powerful shareholders, those will demand that a healthy company borrows money to pay out high dividends. If management refuses, a buy-out firm takes over the company and replaces management until it will cash out the buffers.

If you want unions to keep their demands in check in return for long-run stability, then you have to convince them that all other parties involved will do the same. Not just current management and investors, but also future ones. That's a difficult balancing game that plays in car industries everywhere. It seems to have broken down somewhat in the US, but that's hardly a one-sided affair.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:10 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:
Garm wrote:
But see, that move to offshore the jobs already happened. Now the big three are bringing those jobs back with help from the unions. Which says to me that the unions have learned.

What's the problem with demanding a middle class wage? 56k/year is a good middle class living and nothing more.



Nothing wrong with 56k / year. But I see no reason to believe that when the economy recovers.. as it will do eventually.. that the unions won't start preaching their same old message, and doing the same old shit. Right now.. they have to take those pay cuts, or the Big Three will simply pack up and leave... or even pack up and go out of business... When that threat is no longer there....

I don' think they've learned shit.


There's a big discussion going on right now about how Unions can stay relevant and continue to help people even as more jobs disappear to automation or move to the information and service sectors.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:16 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:When the threat is gone, then why shouldn't wages rise again? What's the point of working in an industry where they cut wages in bad times, but don't grow them in good times?

If your point is that this keeps the company close to the edge, then yeah, that's a risk. But if unions don't keep a company close to the edge for their own profit, others will often do it instead. If workers accept lower wages, higher management will take credit for the higher profitability and cash it out as bonus to themselves. If there are powerful shareholders, those will demand that a healthy company borrows money to pay out high dividends. If management refuses, a buy-out firm takes over the company and replaces management until it will cash out the buffers.

If you want unions to keep their demands in check in return for long-run stability, then you have to convince them that all other parties involved will do the same. Not just current management and investors, but also future ones. That's a difficult balancing game that plays in car industries everywhere. It seems to have broken down somewhat in the US, but that's hardly a one-sided affair.


Sure I can blame the unions... The unions pushed companies so hard that at one point in there... they were now longer viable as profitable companies, until the government stepped in a forced the unions to make concessions...

And you are acting as though these union companies are somehow in a vacuum.. and that other companies who don't use unions, weren't in a far better off position...
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Cleverbeans » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:09 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:And you are acting as though these union companies are somehow in a vacuum.. and that other companies who don't use unions, weren't in a far better off position...


Like AIG right? :roll:
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:00 pm UTC

Flippant single examples do not a trend make.

Toyota and Honda come to mind. They fared much better, although I think they did end up getting some government money. Furthermore, they are more profitable per car produced then GM, and a big chunk of that is the fact that they were paying their employees a fair wage, not an rediculous one.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Yakk » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

Toyota comes to mind, does it?

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15182

A shining example of what we want in a corporation!
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:22 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:Flippant single examples do not a trend make.

Toyota and Honda come to mind. They fared much better, although I think they did end up getting some government money. Furthermore, they are more profitable per car produced then GM, and a big chunk of that is the fact that they were paying their employees a fair wage, not an rediculous one.


So you DO begrudge people making a middle class wage. Again, 56k/year with benefits and a retirement matching scheme is middle class wages and nothing more. It's not like UAW is laying off workers, pillaging companies, and then getting government bailouts.

The problem for the detroit three is that they deferred the wages of laborers. Instead of giving them more take home pay so they could invest in their own retirement, they decided to create these big retirement slushfunds. Except that they didn't actually put any money in the funds. This is a problem that works both ways. That's why it's a bargaining agreement. The unions (sort of) and the corporations (in totality) have the ability to shut the other side down.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:25 pm UTC

Garm wrote:. Again, 56k/year with benefits and a retirement matching scheme is middle class wages and nothing more.
I disagree. I'd say that's about 10k to 15k more. Particularly in Michigan.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:32 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:. Again, 56k/year with benefits and a retirement matching scheme is middle class wages and nothing more.
I disagree. I'd say that's about 10k to 15k more. Particularly in Michigan.


I should have laid out the math. When I say 56k/year I meant take home pay only. The benefits and retirement scheme add, as you say, another 15 to 20k on top of that. That's not out of the ordinary, AFAIK, for a company that offers such things. I was under the impression that when we talk about incomes we generally leave out the cost to the company of health care and retirement (one reason for that being that it's incredibly regressive. The more you make the better your 401k contributions are and the better the cost ratio for your health care becomes). Point being, the take home pay plus the company's retirement and health care contribution puts the UAW workers in the middle class.

The other point being that it takes two to tango. Neither side, when this whole stupid deal was made, saw the potential harm the retirement system would do to the company. It should be said, however, that if the corporations had just done what the unions had asked - given the workers more money up front - then those corporations would be in a better position now.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:41 pm UTC

Garm wrote:I should have laid out the math. When I say 56k/year I meant take home pay only. The benefits and retirement scheme add, as you say, another 15 to 20k on top of that.
Well, I would consider 56k/year middle class as take home pay to be about 10k or 15k above the threshold to be middle class(generally considered somewhere in the 35k to 45k range). The benefits add considerable more to that.

That's not out of the ordinary, AFAIK, for a company that offers such things. I was under the impression that when we talk about incomes we generally leave out the cost to the company of health care and retirement (one reason for that being that it's incredibly regressive. The more you make the better your 401k contributions are and the better the cost ratio for your health care becomes). Point being, the take home pay plus the company's retirement and health care contribution puts the UAW workers in the middle class.
My understanding is that the UAW employees don't have 401k's, they have pension plans, which tend to be much less regressive.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:44 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Garm wrote:. Again, 56k/year with benefits and a retirement matching scheme is middle class wages and nothing more.
I disagree. I'd say that's about 10k to 15k more. Particularly in Michigan.


Like most discussions about wages it depends on where you live. Garm is in one of the more expensive parts of Colorado's I-25 metro sprawl, not the most expensive in the state by any stretch, but Boulder is on the high side of the metro. Down in the less fashionable eastern Denver part of the metro a middle-class existence can be had for... I'd say around $5k less give or take. If you're living up in the mountains of Colorado, a "middle class" existence can double that number easily as the cost of groceries alone is double what it is in the I-25 valley. Exclusive ski-resort towns Vail or Aspen... Middle class people commute an hour or two one-way to service the people who have residences there.

L.A. area (specifically Hollywood) and New York City have famously horrendous costs of living.

I have no information about cost of living in Michigan to compare with, but I wouldn't be surprised at the existence of a disparity.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:54 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Like most discussions about wages it depends on where you live.
Sure, I live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Chicago, which is certainly more expensive then Garm's area. I would still think 56k+ benefits would put someone easily into a middle class lifestyle here.... As I was one time making significantly less then that and lived rather comfortably.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby lutzj » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Dauric wrote:Like most discussions about wages it depends on where you live.
Sure, I live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Chicago, which is certainly more expensive then Garm's area. I would still think 56k+ benefits would put someone easily into a middle class lifestyle here.... As I was one time making significantly less then that and lived rather comfortably.


56k is probably plenty for a single person, but you'll have a hard time supporting a family in the nicer parts of a major city without making six figures.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:21 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
Dauric wrote:Like most discussions about wages it depends on where you live.
Sure, I live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Chicago, which is certainly more expensive then Garm's area. I would still think 56k+ benefits would put someone easily into a middle class lifestyle here.... As I was one time making significantly less then that and lived rather comfortably.


56k is probably plenty for a single person, but you'll have a hard time supporting a family in the nicer parts of a major city without making six figures.


Exactly. Good luck buying a house for a family in Boulder on one income at 56k/year. Sure, it can be done but you're going to be living in a shithole. Mean house price, according to Zillow, is a little over 400k.

My wife and I both have good jobs. We just bought a small house in Longmont since we could not afford to live in Boulder once we had a child. Renting a cheap apartment is cool as long as there are only two of you. Not so much with a small person running around.

You guys do bring up a good point. One of the things the UAW negotiated into their contracts was a Cost Of Living Increase. They don't really get raises anymore than the rest of the U.S. but they do get a bump based on inflation. Jeez, those dastardly unions, looking out for their members.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:31 am UTC

56k / year ... the concessions forced on them by the government as part of the government sanctioned bankrupcy that GM went through... is reasonable INHO.

The 80k that they were earning in 2007 in wages ... is not.

Those old 80k / year jobs, would single handely put those households into the 75th percentile of household incomes, assuming they did not have a partner that also worked. I once again state, as I have before... these employees weren't just getting by. They were getting wealthy.

Even the 56k being bantered around is 60th percentile, once again, assuming they did not have a partner that worked.

Also, stop with this bullshit that 56k isn't middle class. 56k is well above middle class (the national median household income being $44k). Those are still great jobs at 56k. But 80k, plus their rediculous benefits was simply unsustainable.

Not going to address those other potshots...
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:34 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
56k is probably plenty for a single person, but you'll have a hard time supporting a family in the nicer parts of a major city without making six figures.


Because everyone with a high school diploma is entitled to make in the 85th percentile of income and above, and live in the nicer parts of a major city?

If you can't afford to live somewhere... move.

Talk about a sense that the world owes you something...
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby lutzj » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:54 am UTC

stevey_frac wrote:
lutzj wrote:
56k is probably plenty for a single person, but you'll have a hard time supporting a family in the nicer parts of a major city without making six figures.


Because everyone with a high school diploma is entitled to make in the 85th percentile of income and above, and live in the nicer parts of a major city?

If you can't afford to live somewhere... move.

Talk about a sense that the world owes you something...


I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone can or should be able to support 3 kids and a mcmansion. I'm just saying that $56,000/year doesn't do that in a lot of places, especially if that income is meant to support an entire household.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:56 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone can or should be able to support 3 kids and a mcmansion. I'm just saying that $56,000/year doesn't do that in a lot of places, especially if that income is meant to support an entire household.



This just in: Members of the middle-class must live like members in the middle class in order to live within their means... More on this developing story at 11:00.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:14 am UTC

Garm wrote:Exactly. Good luck buying a house for a family in Boulder on one income at 56k/year. Sure, it can be done but you're going to be living in a shithole. Mean house price, according to Zillow, is a little over 400k.

My wife and I both have good jobs. We just bought a small house in Longmont since we could not afford to live in Boulder once we had a child. Renting a cheap apartment is cool as long as there are only two of you. Not so much with a small person running around.

I'm not sure Boulder home prices are really the example you're looking for... the city deliberately prevents expansion, limiting stories and trying to target a very low population growth rate. If twice as many people want to live there as spots have been allowed, it doesn't matter if everyone makes seven plus figures or if there's virtually no income inequality; the prices will go up until the point the poorest half get priced out. If anything, this is a vindication of a conservative idea, that regulation is driving up prices to the point the conventional middle class is being squeezed out.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Cleverbeans » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:36 am UTC

stevey_frac wrote:Talk about a sense that the world owes you something...


I believe the idea is that if you get secondary education and work really hard towards employment in a highly specialize industry that you are indeed owed something. You don't have to look very hard to find closed union shops operating outside the US who's companies are doing very well, Telus and Nokia coming to mind immediately. The problems with unions in the US has more to do with the uniquely hostile legal environment they face here, and certainly isn't indicative of the role unions play in the global picture.

I also have no idea why you feel the wage is "artificially high" either. I know draftsmen making well over $80k/year doing piping and instrumentation drawing for the oil industry with nothing but high school CAD courses and a couple years experience. I'm talking Texas high schools here, some of the worst in the industrialized world. I know ITT Tech graduates who are making six figures in less than 5 years after graduation, and it's not hard work in the slightest.

More so, wouldn't it make more sense to attribute the crisis in the automotive sector with their growing dependency on credit to move their product, and by proxy the credit crisis? Why exactly is it that unions are to blame in this one, specific example while in overwhelming majority of cases that companies hurt by the recent economic downturn have never had unions?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Hawknc » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:43 am UTC

You would be hard pressed to attribute the problems that the auto industry had over the last few years to any one cause. Legacy costs associated with union-negotiated pensions were one factor and the credit crunch was the trigger, but there were systemic flaws in the way they did business that left them vulnerable. You can't discuss the downfall of GM and Chrysler without discussing the corporate culture that refused to build competitive small cars even as gas prices rose, leaving them with big trucks piled high and nobody who could afford to run them; or without considering government protectionism that let domestic manufacturers become inefficient and complacent (like a 25% tax on imported trucks because of a dispute about chickens); or looking at the vicious cycle of cutting manufacturing costs and increasing dealer incentives in an effort to boost sales numbers, resulting instead in massively reduced profit per car as well as the quality of what they sold and killing residual value. Blaming unions alone is short-sighted and dishonest.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Garm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:51 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:
Garm wrote:Exactly. Good luck buying a house for a family in Boulder on one income at 56k/year. Sure, it can be done but you're going to be living in a shithole. Mean house price, according to Zillow, is a little over 400k.

My wife and I both have good jobs. We just bought a small house in Longmont since we could not afford to live in Boulder once we had a child. Renting a cheap apartment is cool as long as there are only two of you. Not so much with a small person running around.

I'm not sure Boulder home prices are really the example you're looking for... the city deliberately prevents expansion, limiting stories and trying to target a very low population growth rate. If twice as many people want to live there as spots have been allowed, it doesn't matter if everyone makes seven plus figures or if there's virtually no income inequality; the prices will go up until the point the poorest half get priced out. If anything, this is a vindication of a conservative idea, that regulation is driving up prices to the point the conventional middle class is being squeezed out.


The only point I was trying to make is that Boulder house prices make it hard to be middle class in the city. My experience certainly isn't applicable to some place like Flint, Michigan.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:02 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:You would be hard pressed to attribute the problems that the auto industry had over the last few years to any one cause. Legacy costs associated with union-negotiated pensions were one factor and the credit crunch was the trigger, but there were systemic flaws in the way they did business that left them vulnerable. You can't discuss the downfall of GM and Chrysler without discussing the corporate culture that refused to build competitive small cars even as gas prices rose, leaving them with big trucks piled high and nobody who could afford to run them; or without considering government protectionism that let domestic manufacturers become inefficient and complacent (like a 25% tax on imported trucks because of a dispute about chickens); or looking at the vicious cycle of cutting manufacturing costs and increasing dealer incentives in an effort to boost sales numbers, resulting instead in massively reduced profit per car as well as the quality of what they sold and killing residual value. Blaming unions alone is short-sighted and dishonest.


I do not recall stating that the unions were the sole problem.

I've only said that I blame them for doing any number of short sighted greedy things... and then refusing to make meaningful concessions until the government forced them too.

GM the corporation had started turning the corner on improving small car fuel efficiency and quality before the crises hit, Starting with the Cobalt, and the Cobalt XFE. And even at that time, had had plans for the 1.4L turbo charged Cruze Eco, that forced Honda to release a High Fuel economy model of their own to be able to compete fuel economy wise.

That's actually part of the reason the crisis hit them so hard. They had spent $4 billion dollars developing the Cruze. But the appropriate response of a union who's company is floundering is to at least agree to temporary concessions, until the company is out of the woods. The autoworkers union did not to do this.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Hawknc » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:43 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:I do not recall stating that the unions were the sole problem.

stevey_frac wrote:Mark my words... there will come a day when the north american auto industry is much like the British one.. Which is to say, virtually non-existent. And when that happens, I will point, and laugh at the unions that made it happen.

$4 billion is...remarkably high, even for an all-new platform. I'd be questioning why the development of a single car with only two body styles could cost so much that it potentially pushed the entire organisation over the edge.

But yes, they didn't make sufficient concessions to avoid bankruptcy. Neither did GM, and neither did their creditors. There's plenty of blame to go around.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:37 am UTC

Garm wrote:The only point I was trying to make is that Boulder house prices make it hard to be middle class in the city. My experience certainly isn't applicable to some place like Flint, Michigan.

I guess I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say then... If you agree that living in certain areas is a luxury that by design can only be had by some people, why bring up comparative expense between cities at all? The ability to obtain goods that are fundamentally quite scarce will never be a good indicator of how well the overall middle class is doing.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby stevey_frac » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:16 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
$4 billion is...remarkably high, even for an all-new platform. I'd be questioning why the development of a single car with only two body styles could cost so much that it potentially pushed the entire organisation over the edge.

But yes, they didn't make sufficient concessions to avoid bankruptcy. Neither did GM, and neither did their creditors. There's plenty of blame to go around.



$4 billion is fairly reasonable for a new car.

To quote Wolkonowicz, Senior Auto Analyst for North America at IHS Global:

"It can be as much as $6 billion if it's an all-new car on all-new platform with an all-new engine and an all-new transmission and nothing carrying over from the old model."

And how exactly does GM make concessions to itself?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Hawknc » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:31 am UTC

By cost-cutting and improving efficiency. GM had too many outgoings, of which labor-related costs were only a part.

And I've just realised how far we've dragged this off topic. Apologies.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby dubsola » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:30 am UTC

I found it interesting.

Back on topic, Occupy London seems to be petering out a bit. I went there a couple of days ago and there are a lot less people about. But one really great thing to come out of this movement is the bank of ideas. I really want to go check it out, it seems really cool.

The Bank of Ideas is situated on Sun Street, Hackney in an abandoned office block purchased several years ago by the bank UBS. It is an enormous space complete with a 500-seater lecture hall. We’re open to visitors and guests from 12 noon to 9 pm from Tuesday to Friday an from 10 am to 9 pm on Saturday and Sunday.

It has been opened to the public for the non-monetary trade of ideas to help solve the pressing economic, social and environmental problems of our time.

There is also room for community groups and other public services that have lost their space due to Government spending cuts to come and adopt a space for free.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Deep_Thought » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:21 pm UTC

Apologies for still off-topic: That particular building was supposed to be redeveloped into a new office block a couple of years ago.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:28 pm UTC

So thoughts on the success/impact of the movement to date?

I am sticking with my 20 pages ago observation.

Great idea, got hijacked by homeless people, crazies, and those willing to resort to violence, and a debate on the right to assemble thus derailing the entire movement. It has a lingering impact on anti-wall street and pro-worker dialogues.

I look forward to the graduate work on the movement and more importantly, what went wrong and why it was unable to have a larger impact, especially as important as its initial premise was.

I had the opportunity to talk with members of the large Occupy San Franciso movement and left discouraged.

Lesson learned for me: Protest in the day and go home at night. Repeat.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Wnderer » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:53 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Lesson learned for me: Protest in the day and go home at night. Repeat.


But you'd be missing out on all the fun. Front Page; Sunday Washington Post; Largest Headline; All Capitals.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:05 am UTC

The one thing that all young Americans want from the corporate-government complex, a willing sex partner who is moderately crazy and agrees with their own political leanings.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Panonadin » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:26 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:So thoughts on the success/impact of the movement to date?

I am sticking with my 20 pages ago observation.

Great idea, got hijacked by homeless people, crazies, and those willing to resort to violence, and a debate on the right to assemble thus derailing the entire movement. It has a lingering impact on anti-wall street and pro-worker dialogues.

I look forward to the graduate work on the movement and more importantly, what went wrong and why it was unable to have a larger impact, especially as important as its initial premise was.

I had the opportunity to talk with members of the large Occupy San Franciso movement and left discouraged.

Lesson learned for me: Protest in the day and go home at night. Repeat.


This. Right down to the letter.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:24 pm UTC

But it worked. It accomplished its goals (bringing their issues to the publics attention and generally shifting the overton window) remarkably well.

Amazingly so, really.

Would they have been as successful if they'd approached it in a different way? Perhaps. But it still worked, do the lesson of "don't do what these guys did" seems a bit off.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:32 pm UTC

That's certainly one interpretation.
-I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
-We can't go back. But I suppose we can go wherever we please.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:54 pm UTC

It changed the tone of the political debate though- Obama has taken a fairly noticeable shift towards a taxation based "fair deal". Whether you agree with him, or OWS, is irrelevant- they did manage to accomplish some change in the discussion of our taxation and spending. They might not have accomplished much on the campaign finance front, but at least an income and wealth inequality, they made those matters part of the national discussion again. That is a huge success- they might not have the same electoral success that the tea party movement had (We obviously don't know yet, but I feel fairly safe in guessing that they won't elect a new batch of freshman OWS congressmen in any appreciable numbers), but before they had that electoral success, they had a success in changing the national discussion to include the debt.
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