SOPA talk, yo.

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Ixtellor
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:31 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:I'm against SOPA because as far as I can tell, a very large portion of completely legal Internet companies are going to be adversely affected by it.

It's a clearly inefficient solution, if it can be considered a solution at all. Being for or against piracy doesn't matter much here, because its incidence will not be affected very much.

Feel free to deduce from my position if I'm a pirate or not.


The effectivness of the bill has not been determined. I know that it has been years in the making with the support of a lot of peoples efforts.

Your just automatically assuming the 'anti-SOPA' people (boingboing) are correct. The fact they have never been correct, doesn't seem to concern you.

Griffin wrote:So please, drop your "they are only against SOPA because they are pro-piracy" bullshit.


I would have 100% agreed with you (BTW i only inserted at the end of a retort and labeled it "my opinion"), if you didn't have the unfortunate luck to post right after some pirate explained to us why Piracy IS good.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Yakk » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:34 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Your just automatically assuming the 'anti-SOPA' people (boingboing) are correct. The fact they have never been correct, doesn't seem to concern you.

Wait, the people who oppose SOPA have never been correct?

Think how broad of a claim that is.

Now you are just trolling.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Zarq » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

I'd like a response to my post too, please. I have a point to go to with that.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

Ixtellor:
You realize it is possible to agree with me 100% without the in any way stop you from disagreeing with their pro-infringement argument?

Seriously, focus here a bit. Stop the pointless, meaningless tangents. We all know people like that exist, it's got nothing to do with anything I said. The fact that you think it does, and that you completely ignored the bulk of my post, leads me to believe you really, honestly, have no intent to participate in this conversation. The only reason we would conflate our posts is because you seek to undermine me without addressing me - that's not only incredibly rude, but makes your motivations clear.

Fine. Everybody else - Ixtellor is clearly trolling at worst, and arguing in an incredibly dishonest manner at best. I really recommend we try to ignore him and just continue the thread in whatever manner we can. I'm sure there are plenty of productive things we could be talking about instead.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:39 pm UTC

Something I've always wanted to discuss, mostly because it's based more on a suspicion of mine than any genuine fact--I mentioned a few posts back that I don't think that there really is anything at stake when we look at piracy--that its impact is probably somewhere around the level of 'shoplifting'--is there any reason to think otherwise? Is there a strong reason for revolutionary polices like SOPA (even as we dispute the particular shape and ramifications that SOPA itself might have)?

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:42 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:I really recommend we try to ignore him and just continue the thread in whatever manner we can. I'm sure there are plenty of productive things we could be talking about instead.


Image

If this thing goes through in its current form, is there any real possibility of backlash against this? How feasible is it for parts of the tech industry to move out of the US? What would have to change for internet users to be able to legally disregard this bill - if major parts of the internet infrastructure moved out of the US, would that be enough? Is that even possible?

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby phillipsjk » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:43 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:SOPA would drastically change the shape of the internet


Again, basically the entire argument from the anti-SOPA posters. You have haven't been right about a single internet destroying prediction yet, so I see no reason to listen to you guys now.


Wait, what other Internet destroying prediction are you talking about? And in relation to what legislation in what country?

Other countries that engage in Internet censorship cited in this study do not control the DNS root servers. If The United States goes down the path of knocking websites it doesn't like off the Internet, the DNS system will become less and less useful.

I can set up a rogue DNS server on tor (as a private service) for about $225/month (subject to bandwidth analysis, not including server maintenance). With namecoin, it can even have a human readable name like "evildns.bit" that resolves to the randomized .onion link. If keeping your DNS server on a public IP is no problem, OpenNIC may be a viable alternative, though apparently, most of their servers are based in the United States at the moment.

Having http://thepiratebay.org/ resolve to completely different websites (or not at all) for different people around the world will "break the Internet" for all useful definitions of the phrase. That censorship is seen as damage and routed around is beside the point.

Ixtellor wrote:Lets condense the entire argument of the anti-SOPA people.

1) SOPA will destroy the internet and make it a horrible place. Also known as the "Chicken Little Argument".

2) Piracy isn't theft and those companies should quit whining and learn how to make money off my pirating (in the real world we call it stealing)

3) Stopping Piracy is to hard, so lets not bother.

4) Some of you are raising concerns for problems which can be easily monitored. I am all for that. The law should not be abused and anyone who does abuse it should face consequences, the least of which should be public outcry. But until this actually happens in any remotely significant scale, lets calm down. Unfortunatly, your concerns are being drowned out by 1,2, and 3.

Ixtellor

P.S. If in the future you could just number your responses 1-3 it will be easier to respond.
Example: Piracy-is-Awsome says "1,3, 3, 2, 1, 1".

  1. See above. Due to convention and historical accident important Internet infrastructure remains in the United States.
  2. Look up the definition of theft. "The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use."
  3. As others have pointed out, that question is not between SOPA and not punishing copyright, Patent or Trademark infringement at all. As a member of the Pirate Party of Canada, I feel that copyright infringement can be reduced by shortening the term to about 20 years. Indefinite copyright terms erode the respect for a concept many find useful, including free software advocates.
  4. That is why many countries employ the concept of "Innoncent until proven guilty", at least for criminal law. For civil law the test is less stringent, requiring only a determination based on the "balance of probabilities". As I understand it: SOPA, like the DMCA, will require the presumption that the accuser is correct. People based outsite the United State will have little recourse to challenge such accusations.

Edit: On second read, I found more oversights in the post I was responding to. It is possible that lxtellor was not aware of them.
Ixtellor wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:Have you ever heard of shutting down entire shopping malls to prevent a few CDs being stolen, because I sure haven't.


Horrible analolgy. Nobody has been shut down yet. The only people who should be worried are piratebay and p2p theft sites.

This is why your irrational, you believe that SOPA is going destroy the internet even though no copyright enforcment EVER has done that to any industry. (See Cassette tapes)

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I remember reading that restoration of the site (dajaz1.com) took about a year. Not surprisingly, they are against SOPA.

Hint: 1,2,4
Ixtellor wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:# of copyrighted works / # of copyrighted works that fail solely because of piracy = piracy doesn't matter
Wow, look, it does nothing to defend piracy does it? You can't look at the total number of websites when noting the number cases of abuse. The cases for abuse need to be taken into account as they are. You can make anything statistically insignificant if you compare it to a large enough body. Examples of corrupt cops are probably about as statistically significant as DMCA abuses, but we care (and we should care!) very much about instances of police abuse.


Ok how about this: Total number of Windows 7 licenses purchased and total number pirated/stolen. China alone = its a big problem.

Or # of illegally download songs versus number of legal sites shut down by copyright laws.

I win.

Emphasis mine. While looking for the above, I came across this.

# of Child porn sites shut-down/ # of innocent sites shut down: 0.000119048 (10/84000)

Hint: 1,4
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:44 pm UTC

I'm getting 5 responses per minute now. Can't reasonable be expected to respond to them all.

I suppose you can get back to unniversal consensus that this bill never enacted will destroy the internet. Just like you did for every every other law that attempted to regulate the internet.

Griffin wrote:So, Ixtellor, stop responding to everyone else, just for a moment.

The benefits from the DMCA can be argued to be worth the sacrifices upon those who did nothing wrong. No law is perfect.

Now, SOPA - This law WILL be used to squash criticism and dissent - we know those, because it has happened, the most recent and widely public example being the Universal take down. We know why it happened - limited oversight and limited consequences. SOPA suffers from these same flaws, but moreso. We do not know how often it will happen or the extent of the damage it will cause.The question, then, becomes a question of "will the benefits of this probably law outweigh the damage it does".


Here is my entire point regarding, your valid concerns.

1) I find the people arguing in favor of SOPA to be more credible than those arguing against for reasons already explained at length.

2) No law is perfect, there will be anecdotal cases. I believe the number of cases of misuse will be statistically insignificant. We are talking about a medium with billions upon billions of activities in a business that is vital to our nation economically as well as culturally.

The intent of the bill is to stop illegal piracy and copyright infringment. Its not to shut down dissention or free speech.

3) There are many avenues to help fix flaws with the bill and again, we don't know how its gonig to work out. People voting with their fingers against users, rewriting the law, bureaucratic implementation, and the court system.

The big horror story that anyone has come up with is a website was closed for 10 days. If it was unlawful they can seek compensatory damages in the court of law... problem solved.

Again, I keep hearing these supposed 'experts' telling me the sky is falling. But after listening to them for YEARS, I'm done. They just dont' have any credibility. They are describing worst case scenarios for which there is not rational reason to believe will come to fruition.

Remember the cries about LHC and blackholes here on earth!
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Something I've always wanted to discuss, mostly because it's based more on a suspicion of mine than any genuine fact--I mentioned a few posts back that I don't think that there really is anything at stake when we look at piracy--that its impact is probably somewhere around the level of 'shoplifting'--is there any reason to think otherwise? Is there a strong reason for revolutionary polices like SOPA (even as we dispute the particular shape and ramifications that SOPA itself might have)?


While I don't trust numbers released by corporations trying to fight piracy, and I don't think that every download equals a lost sale, I do think it's a problem, albeit not one that can be solved with ridiculously far-reaching legislation. I think the problem is more that many people are growing up with a laissez-faire attitude toward piracy, and the mindset that entertainment and the arts are somehow not worth the value that we place on other things.

I think the solution is in education and honest conversation about the issue, and not ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blanket damnation of everyone who has ever downloaded something.

EDIT: Also, bring back the public domain. That's super super super super important.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:49 pm UTC

Is there a strong reason for revolutionary polices like SOPA (even as we dispute the particular shape and ramifications that SOPA itself might have)?

Fear, for many, I would guess. And Side Effects - the entertainment industries get a lot of power by being able to throw stuff like this around. Finally, I'd assume there is a lot of money to be made by the people selling these solutions who are going to try their best to insure people give into the fear, the desire for control, or both.

A great many music and movie industry execs are terribly terribly afraid of losing their grip on power, and even if the effect of this sort of legislation only buys them a couple more months they would see it as worth it. And many of them are... well, from those I've met, they have a sense of entitlement that is very large. For an example, see the Times Warner CEO who's kids pirated a bunch of crap, but he says they shouldn't have to deal with lawsuits or punishment by the copyright holders because, after all, he's the CEO of Time Warner. The rules work differently for him.

Piracy, for many of them, isn't about loss of profits at all. It's about pride. And pride is a big deal for them.

Even for those who aren't personally hurt by it, Righteous Indignation against the "bad guys" is remarkable emotionally appealing.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Zarq » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:52 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:entertainment and the arts are somehow not worth the value that we place on other things.


They are different. If you go out to buy a chair, you look at it from all angles, you test it,... You don't just look at a promotional picture and read a review. You can decide whether or not the chair is worth buying. With movies, music, games, ... however, you're supposed to pay upfront, regardless of whether you'll enjoy it or not.


Ixelltor, you still haven't replied.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:53 pm UTC

Ssssh, shhh. Do not feed, Zarq, do not feed.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:53 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:Fine. Everybody else - Ixtellor is clearly trolling at worst, and arguing in an incredibly dishonest manner at best. I really recommend we try to ignore him and just continue the thread in whatever manner we can. I'm sure there are plenty of productive things we could be talking about instead.


But that means we'd have to get back to civil discussion!

The Great Hippo wrote:Something I've always wanted to discuss, mostly because it's based more on a suspicion of mine than any genuine fact--I mentioned a few posts back that I don't think that there really is anything at stake when we look at piracy--that its impact is probably somewhere around the level of 'shoplifting'--is there any reason to think otherwise? Is there a strong reason for revolutionary polices like SOPA (even as we dispute the particular shape and ramifications that SOPA itself might have)?


Well, according to the survey quoted on Wikipedia, about 0.6% of all inventory is lost to shoplifting, at a cost of $25 million per day, or $9 billion per year in the United States. Copyright infringement estimates vary quite a bit, but it's in the same ballpark--maybe $17 billion in the United States. This isn't actually all that surprising, in the grand scheme of things, now that I think about it.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:54 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
ShootTheChicken wrote:entertainment and the arts are somehow not worth the value that we place on other things.


They are different. If you go out to buy a chair, you look at it from all angles, you test it,... You don't just look at a promotional picture and read a review. You can decide whether or not the chair is worth buying. With movies, music, games, ... however, you're supposed to pay upfront, regardless of whether you'll enjoy it or not.



I know what you mean, but for every person like Felltir who's testing the water in order to make an informed buying decision, there's another who just has an extraordinary sense of entitlement. It's the latter attitude that should be rallied against.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Dauric » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:57 pm UTC

Wild question to anyone that's seen (and understood) the actual bill:

Does SOPA deal strictly in 'piracy', or is it a broader statement on "Copyright Infringement"?

To Wit: A game developer makes a game with a spaceship that has significant similarities with a copyrighted image, could the copyright holder issue a complaint under SOPA to block the developer's website? Or is it strictly dealing with the verbatim copying of an existing work?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:57 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:I know what you mean, but for every person like Felltir who's testing the water in order to make an informed buying decision, there's another who just has an extraordinary sense of entitlement. It's the latter attitude that should be rallied against.
That's part of the reason I support piracy being illegal, but not seen as much worse than shoplifting (possibly even less!); I don't like the sense of entitlement that piracy fosters (the notion that I have a right to your time and effort), but I also don't see how it could be particularly devastating.

The CEO entitlement thing doesn't surprise me at all.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Obby » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:02 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:I know what you mean, but for every person like Felltir who's testing the water in order to make an informed buying decision, there's another who just has an extraordinary sense of entitlement. It's the latter attitude that should be rallied against.

I agree, but the problem is that it's incredibly difficult to differentiate between the two in today's environment. People only see that Felltir has pirated a copy of the new Red Hot Chili Peppers album, not that he bought three copies of it a couple days later because he enjoyed it enough to give it as gifts. I would also think it's completely impossible to determine how many people went out and bought a copy of the album because Felltir recommended it to them. All of these sales are due to Felltir pirating it before he shelled out the cash.

And on another note, how would you then guard against the other end of the spectrum, where people pirate the RHCP album, don't like it at all, and then don't purchase it? I suppose one possible solution, at least for music, would be to allow a time-limited download, so you have 24 hours to listen to the album for free from redhotchilipeppers.com or something and then it gets locked permanently, but then that leads into a whole other can of worms with DRM...

And this also does nothing for movies. I guess that's the point of a movie's trailer, but that's not even a good indicator of how good a movie will be anymore.

/boggle
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Zarq » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:
Zarq wrote:
ShootTheChicken wrote:entertainment and the arts are somehow not worth the value that we place on other things.


They are different. If you go out to buy a chair, you look at it from all angles, you test it,... You don't just look at a promotional picture and read a review. You can decide whether or not the chair is worth buying. With movies, music, games, ... however, you're supposed to pay upfront, regardless of whether you'll enjoy it or not.



I know what you mean, but for every person like Felltir who's testing the water in order to make an informed buying decision, there's another who just has an extraordinary sense of entitlement. It's the latter attitude that should be rallied against.


But that's not exactly possible, or at least feasible, with legislature. At least not without it being at the cost of the former. Also, some food for thought: how much money would other industries, or other parts of the industry, have lost because of someone spending money on a movie, cd, game,... he would not have spent money on if he had known he would not like it. Piracy, and the role of piracy in economics: not as simple as some believe it is.

The attitude in the industry seems to be that they want to be paid for effort, and not for results.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

Yeah, if you're problem is people being overly entitled then you'll basically be getting the "bad guys" on both sides of the aisle for the entirety of this discussion. The execs who want to profit off other peoples work (and think they should be ludicrously compensated for delivering it to you, even if what they delivered isn't what they promised when you forked over your cash), and if you dare to circumvent them you deserve to have your life ruined, and the people who want to enjoy other peoples work without doing a thing to support it, content to cruise by on being a free rider because they deserve to have what they want when they want it, blood and sweat poured into it be damned.

In the one corner:
"I painted (had someone else paint) this awesome painting which I value at $5million dollars, and I deserve to be paid for it! Who cares if it's just smeared feces on canvas. Who cares if no one wants to pay that price for smeared feces. I DID (HIRED SOMEONE ELSE TO DO) THE WORK, I DESERVE TO BE COMPENSATED."

In the other:
"Well, fuck them if they think I'm going to pay 5 dollars for this shit when I can get it for free. This is my favorite song, like, ever, and I really want that pack of snickers too, and I can't afford both. Piracy, ho!"
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:39 pm UTC

I agree with all of you, and I did mention in this post that I don't think it's a problem that can be solved by legislation. By extension of that, I don't agree with DRM. It's a tax on people who are honest, as pirates will always circumvent it.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Zarq » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:44 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote: By extension of that, I don't agree with DRM.


Do not forget the irony that is unskippable anti-piracy ads. "They're watching it. He's waiting for it." I, someone who bought the dvd, am waiting for it too, you morons.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby yurell » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:11 pm UTC

A question — doesn't this mean the Church of England will be able to just shut down any organisation that has a copy of the King James Bible, since it's under perpetual copyright in the UK?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Randomizer » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:21 pm UTC

I've had to use CD keys off the internet to use software I bought before (I forget if I lost the CD key or what happened). And then there was this old game that they repackaged with a bunch of other old games, and I couldn't play one of them because of the copy protection - you needed the instruction book to get the answer to the security question (which changed each time), the package didn't come with a paper instruction book, and if I tried to minimize so that I could look it up on the .pdf then the game crashed. Bunch of @*(#^$ &^%^#% !

On the other end, the internet archive pisses me off. I mean, it's a useful tool, but I didn't say they could copy my shitty website. Too lazy to put in a DMCA takedown notice on their asses, though, so I just quietly resent them. :p
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Steax » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:41 pm UTC

yurell wrote:A question — doesn't this mean the Church of England will be able to just shut down any organisation that has a copy of the King James Bible, since it's under perpetual copyright in the UK?


Even the Happy Birthday song is protected by copyright. It's held by a SOPA supporter, and they already collect thousands of dollars daily from it.

Of course, this isn't to say they will take down sites because of it, but under SOPA, a huge slew of websites could find themselves "infringing in copyright" in a slew of disgusting and incredibly obscure ways, which means anyone dedicated could take down anyone else (and anyone in power can find a reason to take down anyone else).

(... and then there's the possibility that this gets out of hand enough that ISPs and social sharing sites have to police everything and remove stuff that even remotely infringes on copyright, in which case, yes, bye bye 15 second clips of sa baby laughing while 2 lines of "Happy Birthday" play in the background.)
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Malice » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:05 am UTC

Hey Ix, does the rampant piracy of the House of Representatives make them more or less credible regarding SOPA?

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The Great Hippo wrote:Something I've always wanted to discuss, mostly because it's based more on a suspicion of mine than any genuine fact--I mentioned a few posts back that I don't think that there really is anything at stake when we look at piracy--that its impact is probably somewhere around the level of 'shoplifting'--is there any reason to think otherwise? Is there a strong reason for revolutionary polices like SOPA (even as we dispute the particular shape and ramifications that SOPA itself might have)?


While I don't trust numbers released by corporations trying to fight piracy, and I don't think that every download equals a lost sale, I do think it's a problem, albeit not one that can be solved with ridiculously far-reaching legislation. I think the problem is more that many people are growing up with a laissez-faire attitude toward piracy, and the mindset that entertainment and the arts are somehow not worth the value that we place on other things.


Anecedotal, but for what it's worth, I don't know anybody who pirates but doesn't ascribe to the notion that you pay for the products you like and the artists you support. It's not that people don't value entertainment anymore; it's that the method by which they judge that value is much more direct--"Did I enjoy that?" as opposed to "Do I think I might enjoy that?"

I think that, unlike shoplifting, piracy is a net positive force. It allows broader and deeper access to culture (an unofficial public domain, if you will); encourages companies to compete by providing cheap, efficient, good-service distribution (iTunes doesn't exist without Napster); and helps small, independent artists find an audience. The economic downsides are tiny, if not non-existent, at least on an industry-wide scale, and the main problem with it is the SOPAs and the RIAA lawsuits and other overreactions by flailing industries and a confused government unwilling to learn or adapt.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby yurell » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:17 am UTC

I'm having a hard time at the moment morally distinguishing between piracy and a public library. I know I've never bought a book without first reading it unless it was both really cheap and highly recommended. How is pirating a movie not unlike borrowing it from the library? You get to watch the movie for free, and if you don't view it as worth the price that's being charged to purchase it, you don't, you merely borrow it from the library every time you want to watch it.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby grythyttan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:31 am UTC

yurell wrote:I'm having a hard time at the moment morally distinguishing between piracy and a public library. I know I've never bought a book without first reading it unless it was both really cheap and highly recommended. How is pirating a movie not unlike borrowing it from the library? You get to watch the movie for free, and if you don't view it as worth the price that's being charged to purchase it, you don't, you merely borrow it from the library every time you want to watch it.
Libraries pay for their books for instance.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby yurell » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:34 am UTC

grythyttan wrote:Libraries pay for their books for instance.


So did the person who uploaded the original file.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Steax » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:37 am UTC

I personally feel that piracy does provide net benefit to the content owners, especially for expensive products like software. They wouldn't get the market penetration (and critical mass) without it. Take, for example, 3dsmax, which costs $3500. The vast majority of people can't afford that, being hobbyists. And they wouldn't buy it if they couldn't pirate it. In the long run, however, this means the product has enough users to obtain the mass needed to "go mainstream", and there's a nonzero amount of people who once pirated and are now willing to pay for a product that's been so useful.

Sadly, I don't have the data to back this up.

yurell wrote:I'm having a hard time at the moment morally distinguishing between piracy and a public library. I know I've never bought a book without first reading it unless it was both really cheap and highly recommended. How is pirating a movie not unlike borrowing it from the library? You get to watch the movie for free, and if you don't view it as worth the price that's being charged to purchase it, you don't, you merely borrow it from the library every time you want to watch it.


I can't help but think that content producer intent is a big factor here. Most people who write books find it fun and are willing to share their knowledge with the world. Most movie producers, however, just want the money.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Shivahn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:44 am UTC

yurell wrote:
grythyttan wrote:Libraries pay for their books for instance.


So did the person who uploaded the original file.


The library is also lending it out to one person at a time, rather than an arbitrarily number of people for all of perpetuity.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby grythyttan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:08 am UTC

More importantly, the library has an agreement with whoever holds the right to a work. And several countries have stuff like public lending rights where authors receive additional pay based on, for example, how many copies the library has and how often they are borrowed.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Malice » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:11 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:
yurell wrote:
grythyttan wrote:Libraries pay for their books for instance.


So did the person who uploaded the original file.


The library is also lending it out to one person at a time, rather than an arbitrarily number of people for all of perpetuity.


Forget that bit, as libraries also lend forever.

So now the question becomes: how many people are allowed to read the book per single purchase? Can you put a number on that? Over the course of the book's lifetime, a library may lend it to thousands of people. Is that morally okay because the library original paid for one book? As a library patron, do I need to monitor how many people have read it before so I don't go over the line? If one person who reads it out of the thousands buys it, does that pay for thousands more?

What's the moral basis for the number of readers being important? It's not different economically, and either way the artist has no control over their work, since it was already bought once. So what moral rule is the ten thousandth downloader breaking that the ten thousandth library patron isn't?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Sockmonkey » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:29 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:The big horror story that anyone has come up with is a website was closed for 10 days. If it was unlawful they can seek compensatory damages in the court of law... problem solved.
Except that SOPA specifically says that they can't. History shows us that when a power can be abused, it does.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Randomizer » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:42 am UTC

Malice wrote:What's the moral basis for the number of readers being important? It's not different economically, and either way the artist has no control over their work, since it was already bought once. So what moral rule is the ten thousandth downloader breaking that the ten thousandth library patron isn't?

Shivahn wrote:The library is also lending it out to one person at a time, rather than an arbitrary number of people simultaneously.
Fixed

The library is lending the one copy of the work they have purchased, not going into the back room making several dozen xeroxes to lend out to multiple people at once. The library is not acting as if it has publisher's rights simply because it bought a single copy of a work, it is using the rights it has to its one copy in the most efficient manner it can.

Just because there are legal ways to get what you want without paying, doesn't mean every other possible way to get what you want without paying is also ok. Giving you my used CD collection is fine. Making 50 copies of every album I own and passing those around is not.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby lucrezaborgia » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:04 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:The big horror story that anyone has come up with is a website was closed for 10 days. If it was unlawful they can seek compensatory damages in the court of law... problem solved.
Except that SOPA specifically says that they can't. History shows us that when a power can be abused, it does.


Even if they could get compensation, people with enough time, money, and power can hold up cases for years. Most people do not have the kind of money that it takes to go up against the big corporations.

I mostly skimmed this thread so apologies if this has been asked...but how will SOPA stop pirating? I get the feeling that the framers of this legislation have a very poor understanding of how the internet works and that this legislation is really all about certain corporations protecting a dying business model.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Dream » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:14 am UTC

Randomizer wrote:Giving you my used CD collection is fine. Making 50 copies of every album I own and passing those around is not.

The difference is a legal nicety. If I lend you a book and you read it, there is little more than a vanishing likelihood of you ever buying that book for yourself. The effect of the lending, from the point of view of the content rights holder, is almost precisely the same as the effect of downloading an album. Yet there is no protection in law to prevent informal book lending, and to the contrary, there are protections of book resellers who do not pay royalties to the copyright holders. The copyright in a work of visual art does not preclude the resale of the work by the physical owner for a vast profit, with no legal requirement to pay the original artist anything. Radio licences were given up on decades ago, and now anyone can listen to any radio show for free, in spite of it constituting a recorded work of art in the sense that a piece of music does.

For the past century, music and film rights holders have enjoyed absurd privileges by comparison with every other art form. Copyright law, with regards to music, film and other easily disseminated media, is no more permanent or universal than is any other law. It's just a statute, and it can be changed at will. There is no absolute right involved in any part of it, and as such it bears no relation to theft, nor any relation to counterfeiting, which is what real pirate operations essentially are. It's just a law, nothing more. It may as well be telling you to keep your dog on a leash for all there is a moral imperative at work.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby _infina_ » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:44 am UTC

SOPA, and PIPA, are overreaches of the US Government's power. Attempting to control the Internet is impossible, and goes against what the Internet is for, namely the free exchange of information. Not to mention that this overreach of power is going to be handed over to illegal entities (The MPAA and the RIAA should not exist under US anti-trust laws).

As a matter of fact, I am almost rooting for pirates in this one because of the involvement of the MPAA and the RIAA. But if it passes, the pirates won't be the ones losing, it will be all of the users of the internet.

note: would have been more developed, but reading Ixtellor's post broke my brain because of their ignorance.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Sockmonkey » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:56 am UTC

lucrezaborgia wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:The big horror story that anyone has come up with is a website was closed for 10 days. If it was unlawful they can seek compensatory damages in the court of law... problem solved.
Except that SOPA specifically says that they can't. History shows us that when a power can be abused, it does.


Even if they could get compensation, people with enough time, money, and power can hold up cases for years. Most people do not have the kind of money that it takes to go up against the big corporations.

I mostly skimmed this thread so apologies if this has been asked...but how will SOPA stop pirating? I get the feeling that the framers of this legislation have a very poor understanding of how the internet works and that this legislation is really all about certain corporations protecting a dying business model.

None of them will admit it, but it isn't to stop pirating. It's to scare anyone they don't own into not creating anything out of fear they might get sued over a trivial similarity.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Steax » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:08 am UTC

Theoretically it would kill sites like rapidshare, megaupload, mediafire, and a bunch torrent sites, in a few days. These sites are unambiguously faulty in the face of SOPA, and they can't possibly police all their material. The second closest proximity to these sites, places like forums where people share said material, will come next. Also social media where people still share said files, and personal storage services like Dropbox. The SOPA proponents theoretically want all that. Then you have youtube and blogs, which will still fall under the same issues, along with any other site that allows users to post stuff. Oh, and ISPs. If the domains are blocked but the files remain available online, ISPs are next under the fire. Meanwhile, pirates move their business to other, newer and shadier protocols and channels. SOPA probably can't touch the overall torrent network, just the sites that offer up the trackers. I wouldn't be surprised if the internet breaks down as many people push to move to some sort of alternative where they don't have to police their sites.

Of course, these people will all be very happy to see the internet go away. Movie producers and such gain a lot more money from theatrical stuff, as opposed to people buying online.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby lucrezaborgia » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:02 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:It's to scare anyone they don't own into not creating anything out of fear they might get sued over a trivial similarity.


Which is hilarious considering that practically everything that Hollywood and other major media companies produce is a remake of previous content in some form or another.


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