Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

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Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:00 pm UTC

A Comtel flight, en route from India to Britain, stopped in Vienna for refueling. While there, they asked passengers to cough up an extra $31000 to cover the refueling or would refuse to take them any farther.

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LONDON - Airlines have already begun charging for food, drinks, seat assignments and baggage. Now one is demanding that passengers cough up extra cash on board for fuel.

Hundreds of passengers travelling from India to Britain were stranded when their Comtel airline flight stopped for fuel in Austria over the weekend. The charter service asked them to kick in more than 20,000 pounds ($31,000) to fund the rest of the flight to Birmingham, England.

The situation may represent a new low in customer care in an era when frequent flyers have grown accustomed to long lines, long waits, and few perks.

Footage broadcast by Britain's Channel 4 news showed a Comtel cabin crew member telling passengers: "We need some money to pay the fuel, to pay the airport, to pay everything we need. If you want to go to Birmingham, you have to pay."

Some passengers said they were sent off the plane to go to cash machines in Vienna to raise the money.

"We all got together, took our money out of purses — 130 pounds," said Reena Rindi, who was aboard with her 2-year-old daughter. "Children under two went free, my little one went free cause she's under two. If we didn't have the money, they were making us go one by one outside, in Vienna, to get the cash out."

The situation was highly unusual in Europe, where airlines are tightly regulated, said Sue Ockwell, a crisis management expert at Travel PR.

"It's a bit like, well, boarding a train and saying that you can't go on because they've cut the electricity off because they haven't paid the bill," Ockwell said. "You just really don't expect it. This is patently not going to do that airline any good at all."

Amarjit Duggal told the BBC that she flew from Amritsar last week after scattering her mother's ashes. Her father, sister and uncle were still there and did not know when they would be able to return home.

Other passengers also expressed anger.

"It is absolutely disgusting," said Dalvinder Batra, who is from the West Midlands. "There are still people stuck out there."

Bhupinder Kandra, the airline's majority shareholder, told the Associated Press from Vienna that travel agents had taken the passengers' money before the planes left but had not passed it on to the airline.

"This is not my problem," he said. "The problem is with the agents."

But Kandra insisted Thursday that the company was solvent and that the "show will go on."

"We have not run out of money," he said. "We have enough."

A similar Comtel situation was taking place in the Indian city of Amristar. Some 180 passengers on another Comtel flight were told they would not be taking off until they come up with 10,000 rupees (about $200) each, Kandra told the BBC on Thursday.

It was not clear when the plane was supposed to have taken off. The passengers in Amristar were not stuck on the plane or at the airport, according to British diplomats in India. Most of those passengers have been booking flights on other airlines to get to Britain but none of them were British, the Foreign Office said.

Ockwell dismissed Kandra's explanations, noting that it sounded like a bad credit issue on the part of the airline.

"One really does wonder," she said.

Airport officials in Birmingham said Thursday that Comtel's upcoming flights this weekend had been cancelled, but Kandra insisted all would be operating as normal.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Chen » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

That is...extremely odd. I don't understand how a company could even think about getting away with that.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Drumheller769 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

Wow...I think Id prefer my blackmailing and conning to be a little more subtle....

Can the passengers get their money back somehow?
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Jessica » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:24 pm UTC

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:30 pm UTC

There are no words... only facepalms.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Triangle_Man » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:32 pm UTC

So basically, this airline conducted a holdup of it's own aircraft?

Why couldn't they cover the refueling themselves?
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dauric » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

So... What regulatory agency has jurisdiction over these dipshits, and have they come out with a statement about it?
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:59 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:So basically, this airline conducted a holdup of it's own aircraft?

Why couldn't they cover the refueling themselves?


The articles seem to suggest that the airline is basically maxed on credit and didn't have enough money to cover the refueling.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

Yeah, it's surprisingly common for aircraft to be stranded while their owners can't afford fuel anymore. It's a low-margin business. And planes are relatively easy to sell anywhere in the world, since they're mobile and have detailed maintenance records. So when your late with your payments, creditors quickly say 'screw it, we're going to sell your planes instead of hoping for improvement'.

And of course, fuel stations really won't sell fuel on credit to a business that might literally never set a foot in the jurisdiction again.

Usually it's tourists who are stranded before their return trip on a charter flight. This blackmail is new, but it might really be the best option for the people involved. Better than being stranded.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Roĝer » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:43 pm UTC

As long as it happens inside the European Union customers have a lot of rights, and should never put up with this.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Roĝer wrote:As long as it happens inside the European Union customers have a lot of rights, and should never put up with this.

Having rights with respect to a bankrupt company is fairly pointless.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Drumheller769 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:16 pm UTC

But isn't this situation more like a bankrupt person kidnapping you and making you pay a ransom? Or are you saying yes it is legally wrong, but you won't get anything from them because they are bankrupt. If the company was seized by authorities, could these people see any share of the sell-off of company assets?
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby kiklion » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

If it is considered a loan, it would probably be considered an unsecured loan, so they would be last in line.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:37 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:But isn't this situation more like a bankrupt person kidnapping you and making you pay a ransom? Or are you saying yes it is legally wrong, but you won't get anything from them because they are bankrupt. If the company was seized by authorities, could these people see any share of the sell-off of company assets?

Yeah, they won't get anything, even when they're legally entitled. They were already screwed when they got on the plane, they just didn't know yet. And given the choice between being stuck in Vienna and paying extra to make it to their destination, the latter is the better option by far.

So basically being in the EU won't help these people much. Regulation to prevent these things would have to happen in advance, by making sure companies have the finances to keep their promises to customers. That's a nearly impossible task for the myriad of companies that might leave their customers stuck in strange places. Not just airlines, also tour operators for example.

At least in the Netherlands (and presumably elsewhere as well), most tour operators are part of a kind of insurance company that guarantess that customers get home when the operator goes bankrupt. But if you book at an operator that doesn't have such a guarantee, the law just can't do much to help you. The money is gone in a bankruptcy, no matter how much you deserve it.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dark567 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

Note to self: Never take international charter flights.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:51 pm UTC

Is that very different in the US? Every time an airliners or travel agent goes bankrupt, there's inevitably a group of customers who were relying on them to get home.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Triangle_Man » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:52 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Roĝer wrote:As long as it happens inside the European Union customers have a lot of rights, and should never put up with this.

Having rights with respect to a bankrupt company is fairly pointless.

And I think George Carlin once said that the concept of rights (or at least human rights) was basically bullshit or something along those lines, so that's something to think about, I guess...
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dark567 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:58 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Is that very different in the US? Every time an airliners or travel agent goes bankrupt, there's inevitably a group of customers who were relying on them to get home.

Domestic airlines rarely go bankrupt without another company just buying them outright, often relatively transparent to the customer. And domestically your going to have an easier time getting credit. Also, I suspect if there were stranded passengers the government via the FAA would just bail out the airlines for the remaining passengers to get home.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dauric » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Is that very different in the US? Every time an airliners or travel agent goes bankrupt, there's inevitably a group of customers who were relying on them to get home.

Domestic airlines rarely go bankrupt without another company just buying them outright, often relatively transparent to the customer. And domestically your going to have an easier time getting credit. Also, I suspect if there were stranded passengers the government via the FAA would just bail out the airlines for the remaining passengers to get home.


Well, I believe the OP is about a charter flight company, not a regular-scheduled airline. That said I don't think that the U.S. has nearly as much charter flight business as major airlines, most Charter companies in the U.S. have fairly exclusive clientele and charge accordingly. The exception to this might be bush pilots in Alaska that would technically be "Chartered" flights, but only because they're scheduled on a per-flight basis.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:15 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:And I think George Carlin once said that the concept of rights (or at least human rights) was basically bullshit or something along those lines, so that's something to think about, I guess...

I am afraid I am not following you here. Bankruptcy is the exceptional case, normally when you buy a ticket it gives you fairly clear and strong rights. How is that bullshit? It's essential to the functioning of our economy that people can make deals and can have a strong, legally backed expectation that the other side of a deal is kept.

Dark567 wrote:Domestic airlines rarely go bankrupt without another company just buying them outright, often relatively transparent to the customer. And domestically your going to have an easier time getting credit. Also, I suspect if there were stranded passengers the government via the FAA would just bail out the airlines for the remaining passengers to get home.

It could well be that this happens less in the US, corss-border activities are notoriously extra complicated in bankruptcy proceedings. Although I have no idea how often this happens elsewhere either, expect that it happens.

Here's a list of operators in the US that ceased operations due to bankruptcy:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/cessations.htm
Reading through a few random descriptions, some lead to stranded passengers, some just to money losses, and some where indeed followed by a smooth transfer to other operators.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Radical_Initiator » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:20 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Is that very different in the US? Every time an airliners or travel agent goes bankrupt, there's inevitably a group of customers who were relying on them to get home.

Domestic airlines rarely go bankrupt without another company just buying them outright, often relatively transparent to the customer. And domestically your going to have an easier time getting credit. Also, I suspect if there were stranded passengers the government via the FAA would just bail out the airlines for the remaining passengers to get home.


Well, I believe the OP is about a charter flight company, not a regular-scheduled airline. That said I don't think that the U.S. has nearly as much charter flight business as major airlines, most Charter companies in the U.S. have fairly exclusive clientele and charge accordingly. The exception to this might be bush pilots in Alaska that would technically be "Chartered" flights, but only because they're scheduled on a per-flight basis.


My reading of the OP and related articles suggests the company is halfway between charter and regular service. Their "fleet", according to LHW, consists of a grand total of two planes, but The Beeb seems to suggest the Amritsar-Vienna-Birmingham route had become a regular commercial flight. One that they appear to be unable to fund regularly.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby The Reaper » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:24 pm UTC

So the grand unspoken question is: is it legal to hijack the plane if the airline is blackmailing the entire passenger manifest for money?

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Panonadin » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

That just seems like an very large sum of money, are the passengers at that point not just better off booking another flight? With that much money and an average full airplane thats like 200 bucks a person. Obviously not everyone would have that 200, so more from some and less from others. Seems like re-booking would be cheaper but maybe I'm underestimating the price of air travel in other countries.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dauric » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:That just seems like an very large sum of money, are the passengers at that point not just better off booking another flight? With that much money and an average full airplane thats like 200 bucks a person. Obviously not everyone would have that 200, so more from some and less from others. Seems like re-booking would be cheaper but maybe I'm underestimating the price of air travel in other countries.


What's the going rate for a coach ticket from Vienna to Birmingham?
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Panonadin » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:55 pm UTC

What's the going rate for a coach ticket from Vienna to Birmingham?


I did a search on a few different travel websites and the lowest I found was 290 bucks, with most of them being around 300-350. My calculation was assuming the aircraft was a full 7X7. If everyone on the plane coughed up 200 bucks then I guess that is cheaper, but again assuming not everyone could/would it's also very possible that the flight was not full although I don't know how common flying from Viennna to Birmingham is.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby morriswalters » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Triangle_Man wrote:And I think George Carlin once said that the concept of rights (or at least human rights) was basically bullshit or something along those lines, so that's something to think about, I guess...

I am afraid I am not following you here. Bankruptcy is the exceptional case, normally when you buy a ticket it gives you fairly clear and strong rights. How is that bullshit? It's essential to the functioning of our economy that people can make deals and can have a strong, legally backed expectation that the other side of a deal is kept.

Having rights doesn't help you if you are harmed before you can exercise them, they are "I should have things" not "I do have", or else those passengers wouldn't have had to cough up the money.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:12 am UTC

Panonadin wrote:That just seems like an very large sum of money, are the passengers at that point not just better off booking another flight? With that much money and an average full airplane thats like 200 bucks a person. Obviously not everyone would have that 200, so more from some and less from others. Seems like re-booking would be cheaper but maybe I'm underestimating the price of air travel in other countries.

The lowest rates you can find on flights are either for flights you book long in advance, or for flights that happen to be relatively empty. In those cases, you pay a below-average part of the cost of flying the aircraft, while people with less flexible schedules pay above average. If a few hundred people at an airport all want a flight to the same location ASAP, they won't get rates like that.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby juststrange » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:44 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:So the grand unspoken question is: is it legal to hijack the plane if the airline is blackmailing the entire passenger manifest for money?


Sure, but then YOU have a plane that still needs fuel before it can go anywhere. But hey, atleast you have a plane!

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Ghostbear » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:08 pm UTC

juststrange wrote:
The Reaper wrote:So the grand unspoken question is: is it legal to hijack the plane if the airline is blackmailing the entire passenger manifest for money?


Sure, but then YOU have a plane that still needs fuel before it can go anywhere. But hey, atleast you have a plane!

Well, if that was somehow legal (I'm going to take what I feel is a safe guess and say it isn't), then you could take the plane, pay for the fuel yourselves (as was asked of them initially anyway), then sell it at your destination to recoup your costs- and then some. Of course you might have trouble getting a pilot in that case...

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

Could have been worse; they could have made them pay in order to land.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Panonadin wrote:That just seems like an very large sum of money, are the passengers at that point not just better off booking another flight? With that much money and an average full airplane thats like 200 bucks a person. Obviously not everyone would have that 200, so more from some and less from others. Seems like re-booking would be cheaper but maybe I'm underestimating the price of air travel in other countries.

The lowest rates you can find on flights are either for flights you book long in advance, or for flights that happen to be relatively empty. In those cases, you pay a below-average part of the cost of flying the aircraft, while people with less flexible schedules pay above average. If a few hundred people at an airport all want a flight to the same location ASAP, they won't get rates like that.


I dunno about you, but I'd be willing to pay extra to fly with an airline that can cover its expenses for the duration of the flight.
If an airline can't pay for fuel, it's possible they've skimped on other things to save money. Like maintenance or not buying counterfeit replacement parts.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Dauric » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:29 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I dunno about you, but I'd be willing to pay extra to fly with an airline that can cover its expenses for the duration of the flight.
If an airline can't pay for fuel, it's possible they've skimped on other things to save money. Like maintenance or not buying counterfeit replacement parts.


Meh, even flying with a plane that has a major logo on it is no guarantee of good maintenance, pilots that can fly the plane, or a company that you'd want to fly with. A lot of the "regional" aircraft in the U.S. that are ostensibly under the banner of companies like United Airlines or Continental are actually subcontractors that aren't actually being controlled by the company who's logo they're flying.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Kayangelus » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I dunno about you, but I'd be willing to pay extra to fly with an airline that can cover its expenses for the duration of the flight.
If an airline can't pay for fuel, it's possible they've skimped on other things to save money. Like maintenance or not buying counterfeit replacement parts.


I think the issue may be with this part of the above article:
Bhupinder Kandra, the airline's majority shareholder, told the Associated Press from Vienna that travel agents had taken the passengers' money before the planes left but had not passed it on to the airline.

"This is not my problem," he said. "The problem is with the agents."

But Kandra insisted Thursday that the company was solvent and that the "show will go on."

"We have not run out of money," he said. "We have enough."


It wasn't that the airline couldn't cover its expenses. The problem seems to be that the money for those expenses was essentially stolen from the company at the last minute.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:47 pm UTC

Kayangelus wrote:
It wasn't that the airline couldn't cover its expenses. The problem seems to be that the money for those expenses was essentially stolen from the company at the last minute.


Whatever the cause the airline quite clearly did not have enough cash on hand to cover it's expenses, which in economese is I believe known as having a liquidity crisis. In this case the appropriate thing to do would have been to either cancel the flight or secure a loan that would cover the refueling of the aircraft (which could include buying the fuel on credit), using the outstanding debt as a security.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:23 am UTC

Just get the word out to anyone planning a trip from/to India. Make it the most expensive $31k that airline ever got.

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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby big boss » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:20 am UTC

I don't understand how the plane was allowed to takeoff even. If a business can't uphold its promises with 99% certainty it has no right to offer such promises. Its a shame no one holds the business people who make this idiotic decisions responsible when stupid shit like this happens.
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:53 am UTC

I don't understand how that could be the problem. Don't travel agents have to pay for tickets up front just like normal people? If the airline is extending credit to agents then it is the airlines responsibility to insure its credit or be able to absorb the loss.
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addams
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby addams » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:53 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
Panonadin wrote:That just seems like an very large sum of money, are the passengers at that point not just better off booking another flight? With that much money and an average full airplane thats like 200 bucks a person. Obviously not everyone would have that 200, so more from some and less from others. Seems like re-booking would be cheaper but maybe I'm underestimating the price of air travel in other countries.

The lowest rates you can find on flights are either for flights you book long in advance, or for flights that happen to be relatively empty. In those cases, you pay a below-average part of the cost of flying the aircraft, while people with less flexible schedules pay above average. If a few hundred people at an airport all want a flight to the same location ASAP, they won't get rates like that.


I dunno about you, but I'd be willing to pay extra to fly with an airline that can cover its expenses for the duration of the flight.
If an airline can't pay for fuel, it's possible they've skimped on other things to save money. Like maintenance or not buying counterfeit replacement parts.


Yes. The funny 'team sport' of airplane maintenance. This came to mind.
Spoiler:
It takes a college degree to fly a plane but only a high school
diploma to fix one: a reassurance for those of us who fly routinely in
their jobs.

After every flight, Qantas pilots fill out a form, called a "gripe
sheet, "which tells mechanics about problems with the aircraft. The
mechanics correct the problems; document their repairs on the form,
and then pilots review the gripe sheets before the next flight.

Never let it be said that ground crews lack a sense of humor. Here are
some actual maintenance complaints submitted by Qantas Pilots (marked
with a P) and the Solutions Recorded (marked with an S) by Maintenance
Engineers.

By the way, Qantas is the only major airline that has never had an
accident.

P: Left inside main tire almost needs replacement.
S: Almost replaced left inside main tire.

P: Test flight OK, except auto-land very rough.
S: Auto-land not installed on this aircraft.

P: Something loose in cockpit.
S: Something tightened in cockpit.

P: Dead bugs on windshield.
S: Live bugs on back-order.

P: Auto pilot in altitude-hold mode produces a 200
feet per minute descent.
S: Cannot reproduce problem on ground.

P: Evidence of leak on right main landing gear.
S: Evidence removed.

P: DME volume unbelievably loud.
S: DME volume set to more believable level.

P: Friction locks cause throttle levers to stick.
S: That's what they're for.

P: IFF inoperative.
S: IFF always inoperative in OFF mode.

P: Suspected crack in windshield.
S: Suspect you're right.

P: Number 3 engine missing.
S: Engine found on right wing after brief search.

P: Aircraft handles funny. (I love this one!)
S: Aircraft warned to straighten up, fly right,
and be serious.

P: Target radar hums.
S: Reprogrammed target radar with lyrics.

P: Mouse in cockpit.
S: Cat installed.

And The Best One For Last !!

P: Noise coming from under instrument panel
Sounds like a midget pounding on something with a hammer.
S: Took hammer away from midget
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Hawknc
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Hawknc » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:07 pm UTC

addams wrote:It takes a college degree to fly a plane but only a high school
diploma to fix one: a reassurance for those of us who fly routinely in
their jobs.

I know it's a shitty chain-mail thing, but this bugs me because it's completely false. Pilots, at least Qantas pilots, require an ATPL which is thousands of hours of training and experience but not necessarily a bachelor's degree. Licensed aircraft maintenance engineers also don't need a degree but they do need a very specialised trade qualification which is a considerable step above being an everyday mechanic.

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Zamfir
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Re: Airlines Blackmail Passengers En Route for Extra Cash

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:16 pm UTC

P: Target radar hums.
S: Reprogrammed target radar with lyrics.

Is that standard on Qantas planes? Is it for ground or air targets?


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