Los Angeles Prohibits Frisbee on Beaches

[lutzj]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/08/la-county-oks-1000-fine-for-throwing-football-frisbee-on-beaches/

edit: CBS has updated the article since; spoilered is what it read when this post was made for posterity:

Spoiler:

LOS ANGELES (CBS) — When you head down to the beach for a little fun this summer, county officials want you to leave the pigskin at home.

The Board of Supervisors this week agreed to raise fines for anyone who throws a football or a Frisbee on any beach in Los Angeles County.


In passing the 37-page ordinance on Tuesday, officials sought to outline responsibilities for law enforcement and other public agencies while also providing clarification on beach-goer activities that could potentially disrupt or even injure the public.

According to Lucy Kim, from the LA County Department of Beaches and Harbors, a first-time offender will have to pay a $100 fine. For a second offense, beach-goers will face a $200 fine. Three or more infractions within one year will result in a $500 fine, Kim said.

The updated rules now prohibit “any person to cast, toss, throw, kick or roll” any object other than a beach ball or volleyball “upon or over any beach” between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

Exceptions allow for ball-throwing in predesignated areas, when a person obtains a permit, or playing water polo “in or over the Pacific Ocean”.

However, during the winter off-season, the new rules will be relaxed.

Officials warned that any activities that could potentially harm “any person or property on or near the beach” should not be allowed during the peak summer season.

Your kids could also end up costing you big bucks: the ordinance also prohibits digging any hole deeper than 18 inches into the sand except where permission is granted for film and TV production services only.

Essentially, the county of Los Angeles is instituting heavy fines for people that throw objects on the beach during the summer, with some exceptions for things like beach volleyball and water polo.

I don't see how they plan to enforce this with any kind of consistency. These beaches can get incredibly crowded during the summer, but are footballs and frisbees really that dangerous?

[stevey_frac]

And the Nanny state takes another step forward.

[omgryebread]

Kid at middle school got knocked out by a football once. Like, unconscious for a minute or two and had to go home with a bad headache. I can see why that would suck if you're just chilling at the beach. And given how crowded beaches are here in Maryland, I can imagine people getting hit with errant footballs and frisbees is a somewhat common occurrence in LA. It's also incredibly annoying when I'm trying to sleep and get a tan sun burn, and kids keep kicking sand on my towel as they run for a frisbee or ball or whatever.

And the Nanny state takes another step forward.

Look, I don't think that means what you think it means. Nanny state is used to refer to when states prevent you from doing something for your own good. This is clearly for the good of the non-frisbee throwers.

[Tiberius]

And the Nanny state takes another step forward.

Ya how dare they regulate what you can do on public property. Next they will be telling me that I can't bring my smg to the white house.

If you couldn't cut through the sarcasm. I was calling you an idiot.

[folkhero]

I don't see how they plan to enforce this with any kind of consistency. These beaches can get incredibly crowded during the summer, but are footballs and frisbees really that dangerous?

Last time I was in Los Angeles, I was throwing around a frisbee on the beach, it was one of those floppy ones, so I'm quite sure that it was much safer than a volleyball.

As far as enforcement, it won't be consistent, I'm guessing that it will more heavily enforced on 'undesirable' kids near rich people's houses and I can almost guarantee that it will be more heavily enforced durring times the LAPD needs to cover a deficit.

The whole bill is so fucked up though, it already has selective enforcement built in with only a few sports and activities allowed leaving people who enjoy other activities feeling shit on and ignored. Then there is the selective enforcement that will naturally occur just based on the difficulty of enforcing it uniformly. There is the fact that it will target young people harder, especially the ban of digging holes 18 inches. You know who digs holes at the beach? Little kids, so we'd better make sure that a bunch of kids' first encounter with a police officer is really negative one, where Mom and Dad are in big trouble because of something innocent that you did. There is the size of the fine, which just seems so far out of whack with what the actual offense is.

[Adam H]

Ya how dare they regulate what you can do on public property.

And the Nanny state takes another step forward.

Look, I don't think that means what you think it means. Nanny state is used to refer to when states prevent you from doing something for your own good. This is clearly for the good of the non-frisbee throwers.

Well, banning all frisbee's on any public property would also be for the good of non-frisbee throwers, but I think you'd agree that would be ridiculous. All regulations are for the good of some people at the expense of other people. Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

[yurell]

Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

How so? Surely those who don't go out at night would be entirely unaffected by such a curfew?

[stevey_frac]

Robbers and hooligans who can't walk the streets at night are significantly less effective. Thus those who don't go out at night will be safer.

It would be better to say, those who don't go out at night would not be negatively affected.

[Ghostbear]

Robbers and hooligans who can't walk the streets at night are significantly less effective. Thus those who don't go out at night will be safer.

They're already breaking a far more serious crime by being robbers or hooligans, why would those people be stopped by a curfew that is going to have as imperfect implementation as the laws against robbery and hooliganism?

[Azrael]

Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

How so? Surely those who don't go out at night would be entirely unaffected by such a curfew?

Their peace and quiet won't be disturbed by the loud shenanigans created by other people going out.

Which would only really benefit people anywhere near loud shenanigans.

[folkhero]

Robbers and hooligans who can't walk the streets at night are significantly less effective. Thus those who don't go out at night will be safer.

They're already breaking a far more serious crime by being robbers or hooligans, why would those people be stopped by a curfew that is going to have as imperfect implementation as the laws against robbery and hooliganism?

It's a lot easier for police to get hooligans off the street at night if they don't have to prove any crime other than being on the street at night.

[omgryebread]

The whole bill is so fucked up though, it already has selective enforcement built in with only a few sports and activities allowed leaving people who enjoy other activities feeling shit on and ignored. Then there is the selective enforcement that will naturally occur just based on the difficulty of enforcing it uniformly. There is the fact that it will target young people harder, especially the ban of digging holes 18 inches. You know who digs holes at the beach? Little kids, so we'd better make sure that a bunch of kids' first encounter with a police officer is really negative one, where Mom and Dad are in big trouble because of something innocent that you did. There is the size of the fine, which just seems so far out of whack with what the actual offense is.

Pretty much every prohibition is selectively enforced. I drive faster than the speed limit every day, and don't get tickets. That's not a good argument against speed limits. Beach balls are giant harmless things that don't fly very fast, and volleyballs are very soft and by definition, played in a certain area.

I feel kind of shit on and ignored when people feel perfectly free to play a game of football around where I'm lying on the beach. From the article, it does seem LA plans to have designated areas, and if they're big enough (they should be), I don't see the issue.

Holes are actually a pretty big problem. Sand holes can collapse really easily, and are very hard to dig out. (Kids also leave them unfilled like, all the time. Raaaaage.) It's also not like the cops are going to come with handcuffs and instafine your parents. (If it is, that's also a problem, but not with the actual law.) The fine is really there so that if parents ignore/flip off the lifeguard that tells them to fill in the hole, they can actually do something.

I don't see why you should get to do whatever you want on public property, other people's safety and good times be damned, so yeah, go LA.

(Okay, maybe I'm a bit of a curmudgeon on the beach, but it's honestly not that absurd to ban things that are dangerous and disruptive to other beachgoers.)

[Lucrece]

Enough assholes have made the beach-going experience of others shit, and now you got this law. Sadly, the innocent pay for the guilty. I wish they had gone about it differently, but if it means the rude jackasses have less ways of encroaching upon other people, so be it.

[Zamfir]

They're already breaking a far more serious crime by being robbers or hooligans, why would those people be stopped by a curfew that is going to have as imperfect implementation as the laws against robbery and hooliganism?

I once read a book where they took the turn-people-to-stone part of a basilisk's brain, and the used it to design a software update for CCTV cameras. That would be highly effective to enforce a curfew.

I am not sure if this already possible in real life, but with increasing processor power it should surely be viable in a few more years.

[Kulantan]

Enough assholes have made the beach-going experience of others shit, and now you got this law. Sadly, the innocent pay for the guilty. I wish they had gone about it differently, but if it means the rude jackasses have less ways of encroaching upon other people, so be it.

Are the beaches in LA particularly bad for people being assholes? Because if there is a particular reputation or trend at LA beaches for numerous assholes making the beach hostile and uncomfortable, then it puts a slightly differently light on this.

I once read a book where they took the turn-people-to-stone part of a basilisk's brain, and the used it to design a software update for CCTV cameras. That would be highly effective to enforce a curfew.

That is only in the supposed to be activated full scale during Case Nightmare Green. In which case if you're breaking curfew then you are probably a horror from beyond spacetime.

[Tiberius]

Well, banning all frisbee's on any public property would also be for the good of non-frisbee throwers, but I think you'd agree that would be ridiculous. All regulations are for the good of some people at the expense of other people. Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

Are you seriously arguing that forcing people to stay inside their houses is at all similar to regulating what activities people can engage in at a public park intended for the enjoyment of all?

All this law does is give cops the power to stop people from being assholes on beaches. Before the law you could be playing frisbee like an asshole and a cop could not stop you. Now cops can stop people if they get out of hand. I seriously doubt this will be enforce if people are throwing a frisbee around and they are on an isolated part of the beach where they couldn't be bothering anyone. Same thing with the holes in the sand. No cop is going to tackle a kid digging a hole. He'll just tell him to fill it in when he's done. That's how law enforcement in these situations works police have they prerogative to selectively enforce non-criminal infractions in order to keep the peace. Literally.

[Heisenberg]

Well, banning all frisbee's on any public property would also be for the good of non-frisbee throwers, but I think you'd agree that would be ridiculous. All regulations are for the good of some people at the expense of other people. Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

Are you seriously arguing that forcing people to stay inside their houses is at all similar to regulating what activities people can engage in at a public park intended for the enjoyment of all?

All this law does is give cops the power to stop people from being assholes on beaches hooligans with crowbars from wandering about after dark. Before the law you could be playing frisbee like an asshole getting ready to vandalize a store and a cop could not stop you. Now cops can stop people if they get out of hand. I seriously doubt this will be enforce if people are throwing a frisbee around and they are on an isolated part of the beach walking to the corner store where they couldn't be bothering anyone. Same thing with the holes in the sand. No cop is going to tackle a kid digging a hole senior citizen going to the store. He'll just tell him to fill it in go home when he's done. That's how law enforcement in these situations works police have they prerogative to selectively enforce non-criminal infractions in order to keep the peace. Literally.

If you couldn't cut through the sarcasm, your argument is ill-founded and would justify enforcing a national curfew as well as a frisbee ban.

Side Note: How exactly does one "play frisbee like an asshole"?

[JudeMorrigan]

Are you seriously arguing that forcing people to stay inside their houses is at all similar to regulating what activities people can engage in at a public park intended for the enjoyment of all.

Well, it's certainly a better analogy than, say, comparing it to prohibiting bringing machine guns into the White House.

[eran_rathan]

They're already breaking a far more serious crime by being robbers or hooligans, why would those people be stopped by a curfew that is going to have as imperfect implementation as the laws against robbery and hooliganism?

I once read a book where they took the turn-people-to-stone part of a basilisk's brain, and the used it to design a software update for CCTV cameras. That would be highly effective to enforce a curfew.

I am not sure if this already possible in real life, but with increasing processor power it should surely be viable in a few more years.

"The Atrocity Archives," Charlie Stross. Excellent series.


The IT Crowd + H.P. Lovecraft + James Bond. fucking brilliant.

[emceng]

Well, banning all frisbee's on any public property would also be for the good of non-frisbee throwers, but I think you'd agree that would be ridiculous. All regulations are for the good of some people at the expense of other people. Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

Are you seriously arguing that forcing people to stay inside their houses is at all similar to regulating what activities people can engage in at a public park intended for the enjoyment of all?

All this law does is give cops the power to stop people from being assholes on beaches. Before the law you could be playing frisbee like an asshole and a cop could not stop you. Now cops can stop people if they get out of hand. I seriously doubt this will be enforce if people are throwing a frisbee around and they are on an isolated part of the beach where they couldn't be bothering anyone. Same thing with the holes in the sand. No cop is going to tackle a kid digging a hole. He'll just tell him to fill it in when he's done. That's how law enforcement in these situations works police have they prerogative to selectively enforce non-criminal infractions in order to keep the peace. Literally.

So the cops are only going to stop people from being assholes? How will that work exactly? They now have the power to fine anyone throwing things on the beach, no matter what the circumstances. How do you kow they won't enforce it if the beach is deserted? How do you know some cop isn't going to fine a kid's parents' because he dug a hole? You're just assuming this will be selectively enforced against the people YOU don't care for.

[Dauric]

Side Note: How exactly does one "play frisbee like an asshole"?

In general by throwing the frisbee/sportsball in an area otherwise full of people sunbathing or having picnics. Stepping on people as you try to catch $flyingObject, knocking over people's stuff, demolishing little kids' sandcastles... Generally being an asshole while playing frisbee/sportsball.

[eran_rathan]

Enough assholes have made the beach-going experience of others shit, and now you got this law. Sadly, the innocent pay for the guilty. I wish they had gone about it differently, but if it means the rude jackasses have less ways of encroaching upon other people, so be it.

Are the beaches in LA particularly bad for people being assholes? Because if there is a particular reputation or trend at LA beaches for numerous assholes making the beach hostile and uncomfortable, then it puts a slightly differently light on this.

I once read a book where they took the turn-people-to-stone part of a basilisk's brain, and the used it to design a software update for CCTV cameras. That would be highly effective to enforce a curfew.

That is only in the supposed to be activated full scale during Case Nightmare Green. In which case if you're breaking curfew then you are probably a horror from beyond spacetime.

Case NIGHTMARE GREEN is coming up. Soon.

[JBJ]

Why is this section missing from the article copy/paste?

The update means that beach-goers may toss balls and Frisbees with Lifeguards permission on beaches in Los Angeles County between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

However citations, may be given out to individuals who ignore lifeguards’ orders.

They aren't prohibiting anything. The ordinance already existed. They just raised the maximum fine from $500 to $1,000 and provided lifeguards and other specified county employees with enforcement authority. If I read the updated ordinance correctly, the only person who had enforcement authority before was the director of beaches and harbors. So previously, any time a lifeguard had to break up a group of assholes throwing footballs into little Timmy's sandcastle, he/she had no power to penalize said assholes without going to their boss's boss.

[Tiberius]

Well, banning all frisbee's on any public property would also be for the good of non-frisbee throwers, but I think you'd agree that would be ridiculous. All regulations are for the good of some people at the expense of other people. Like a national curfew would be for the good of the people who don't go out at night.

Are you seriously arguing that forcing people to stay inside their houses is at all similar to regulating what activities people can engage in at a public park intended for the enjoyment of all?

All this law does is give cops the power to stop people from being assholes on beaches hooligans with crowbars from wandering about after dark. Before the law you could be playing frisbee like an asshole getting ready to vandalize a store and a cop could not stop you. Now cops can stop people if they get out of hand. I seriously doubt this will be enforce if people are throwing a frisbee around and they are on an isolated part of the beach walking to the corner store where they couldn't be bothering anyone. Same thing with the holes in the sand. No cop is going to tackle a kid digging a hole senior citizen going to the store. He'll just tell him to fill it in go home when he's done. That's how law enforcement in these situations works police have they prerogative to selectively enforce non-criminal infractions in order to keep the peace. Literally.

If you couldn't cut through the sarcasm, your argument is ill-founded and would justify enforcing a national curfew as well as a frisbee ban.

Side Note: How exactly does one "play frisbee like an asshole"?

Couple things:

1. Notice how i said non-criminal offenses. Ya that's pretty important. Law enforcement has the right to selectively enforce non-criminal offenses as long as it's not discriminatory. That's pretty standard. How about you read the whole thing before making a fool of yourself.

2.What you have described is an inchoate offense meaning that even though you haven't robbed the store it is still illegal because their is probable cause to believe that you are about to.

I would say playing frisbee like an asshole would involve hitting people/their things or kicking sand on people/their things. Implying that their are socially responsible and irresponsible ways of playing frisbee.

[Tiberius]

So the cops are only going to stop people from being assholes? How will that work exactly? They now have the power to fine anyone throwing things on the beach, no matter what the circumstances. How do you kow they won't enforce it if the beach is deserted? How do you know some cop isn't going to fine a kid's parents' because he dug a hole? You're just assuming this will be selectively enforced against the people YOU don't care for.

Well cops aren't cartoon characters so they generally don't go around looking to fuck with people minding their own business and not bothering anyone. And it has seemed to work pretty well in the past. This whole selective enforcement thing has been around for quite a while and the only problems have been discrimination which is illegal anyway so it really doesn't matter.

[omgryebread]

If you couldn't cut through the sarcasm, your argument is ill-founded and would justify enforcing a national curfew as well as a frisbee ban.

The act of walking outside at night does not increase the danger to other people in and of itself, nor does it cause significant annoyance. Only when taken in conjunction with another action (hooliganism!) is it dangerous. Engaging in sports or digging very deep holes on the beach do result in annoyance and safety concerns, in and of themselves.

Side Note: How exactly does one "play frisbee like an asshole"?

Running in the foot wide space between two towels with people trying to have a conversation. Getting sand on people's towels. Running backwards straight into someone carrying a lot of stuff. Just from personal experience.

So the cops are only going to stop people from being assholes? How will that work exactly? They now have the power to fine anyone throwing things on the beach, no matter what the circumstances. How do you kow they won't enforce it if the beach is deserted? How do you know some cop isn't going to fine a kid's parents' because he dug a hole? You're just assuming this will be selectively enforced against the people YOU don't care for.

Do you really imagine the police are going to roam around deserted beaches looking for frisbee-throwers to fine? I have a fairly cynical view of the police as well, but come on.

Oh and hey, this law exists in other places! (at least the hole part). Ocean City, MD lifeguards will tell people to fill in holes. Refusing to follow the instructions of a lifeguard can get you kicked off the beach. Shockingly, I know, this has not made Ocean City into a police state. Generally people fill in holes! And really, if you're that insensitive to people's safety that you won't you know, stop doing unsafe things, you're an asshole and should be thrown off the beach, and a fine sounds fine too. And if the police do, for some reason, abuse this law, that's an enforcement problem, not a problem with the law.

[Heisenberg]

This whole selective enforcement thing has been around for quite a while and the only problems have been discrimination which is illegal anyway so it really doesn't matter.

Well shucks, let's just make everything illegal and let the cops enforce whatever they want. Oh wait, that's a fucking terrible idea.

"Well they'll just enforce it on the people I don't like" is both dumb and ignorant, and also is not adequate justification for a poorly written law. If there's a good way and a bad way of playing frisbee at the beach, the correct response is not to outlaw frisbees.

[stevey_frac]

The problem with a law that can get abused, is that it will be abused, because somewhere, there is a cop who is an asshole.

The act of walking outside at night does not increase the danger to other people in and of itself, nor does it cause significant annoyance. Only when taken in conjunction with another action (hooliganism!) is it dangerous. Engaging in sports or digging very deep holes on the beach do result in annoyance and safety concerns, in and of themselves.

The act of playing football away from everyone else, does not increase the danger to other people in and of itself, nor does it cause significant annoyance. Only when taken in conjunction with another action(assholism!) is it dangerous.

It's not as bad as it first seemed, seeing as their are exceptions and such, but still. Laws regulating beach behaviour really rub me the wrong way. I really don't want to live in a world where everything I do outside of my bedroom has a laundry list of regulations I have to follow. We're not there yet... but we're heading there.. slowly.

In Toronto, a school board has decreed that kids can't play with certain types of balls. They're working on making it illegal to sell kids soft drinks during school hours. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until food that the government deems 'unhealthy' is taxed more heavily, and people who enjoy eating bacon become marginalized members of society...

[JBJ]

The problem with a law that can get abused, is that it will be abused, because somewhere, there is a cop who is an asshole.

Umm... what laws can't be abused?

I acknowledge that some laws can be abused more easily than others, but to my knowledge there are none that can't be abused by a resourceful person asshole (not always a cop). If we are judging the merit of a law by its potential for abuse, what is the standard by which we measure those laws?

[Tiberius]

This whole selective enforcement thing has been around for quite a while and the only problems have been discrimination which is illegal anyway so it really doesn't matter.

Well shucks, let's just make everything illegal and let the cops enforce whatever they want. Oh wait, that's a fucking terrible idea.

"Well they'll just enforce it on the people I don't like" is both dumb and ignorant, and also is not adequate justification for a poorly written law. If there's a good way and a bad way of playing frisbee at the beach, the correct response is not to outlaw frisbees.

Wow! It's both dumb and ignorant? Is it stupid too? How about unintelligent? You still haven't proven how selective enforcement uniquely leads to abuse. Cops can decide who they want to ticket for speeding based on the severity of the offense. That is a good thing. It has nothing to do with people i do or don't like. Their is this thing called spirit of the law and it determines how cops enforce the law.Furthermore this law didn't make frisbee illegal it just allowed lifeguards to determine who is and who isn't acting responsibly.

The problem with a law that can get abused, is that it will be abused, because somewhere, there is a cop who is an asshole.
The act of playing football away from everyone else, does not increase the danger to other people in and of itself, nor does it cause significant annoyance. Only when taken in conjunction with another action(assholism!) is it dangerous.
It's not as bad as it first seemed, seeing as their are exceptions and such, but still. Laws regulating beach behaviour really rub me the wrong way. I really don't want to live in a world where everything I do outside of my bedroom has a laundry list of regulations I have to follow. We're not there yet... but we're heading there.. slowly.
In Toronto, a school board has decreed that kids can't play with certain types of balls. They're working on making it illegal to sell kids soft drinks during school hours. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until food that the government deems 'unhealthy' is taxed more heavily, and people who enjoy eating bacon become marginalized members of society...

Let's keep this in the context of the fact that we are talking about recreational park owned by the government. You don't have to go there. Your enjoyment of the park goes along with tacit consent to use it wisely you can go to a private beach or not go to a beach at all.

On the soda in schools thing. There is a pretty big difference between telling people they can't drink soda and PUBLIC SCHOOLS deciding to stop selling soda to kids. And rubber dodge balls have the propensity to do some serious damage. In middle school i had a vein busted open in my eye by one and i was a pretty big/tough kid.

[AngelfishTitan]

I am quite confused by the OP's spoiler as it says much different things than the article he linked.

The Board of Supervisors this week agreed to lift an all-out ban on playing with footballs, other balls and Frisbees on the beach, according to a media statement released by the L.A. County Department of Beaches and Harbors.

The update means that beach-goers may toss balls and Frisbees with Lifegauds permission on beaches in Los Angeles County between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

So essentially, they have changed a law that previously completely disallowed balls and frisbees and instead now you only need to ask the lifegaurd for permission to play, which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

[Chen]

So essentially, they have changed a law that previously completely disallowed balls and frisbees and instead now you only need to ask the lifegaurd for permission to play, which doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

That's what it seems like. Which is oddly exactly the opposite of the OPs post, as you mentioned.

[jareds]

I don't think it's the OP's fault: the content of the article changed dramatically. When I read it yesterday, it was consistent with the OP.

[stevey_frac]

Let's keep this in the context of the fact that we are talking about recreational park owned by the government. You don't have to go there. Your enjoyment of the park goes along with tacit consent to use it wisely you can go to a private beach or not go to a beach at all.

On the soda in schools thing. There is a pretty big difference between telling people they can't drink soda and PUBLIC SCHOOLS deciding to stop selling soda to kids. And rubber dodge balls have the propensity to do some serious damage. In middle school i had a vein busted open in my eye by one and i was a pretty big/tough kid.

Were you irreparably harmed by the dodge ball? Were you emotionally scared for life? Is your vision forever damaged? Because the next series of questions goes something more along the lines of this: Did anyone learn that actions have consequences? Did anyone get the idea that perhaps they might need to take precautions? Did anyone learn anything at all? Now, you will doubtless argue no, and I will disagree with you... but... meh. I'm relatively ok with that.

You see... I personally feel that it is not the job of the government to protect it's citizens from themselves. Let us make mistakes. Let us fall down. Let us play ball on the fucking beach. If people get upset by this... why can't they sort it out themselves? Why do we need to get a bunch of semi-retarded politicians who have a laundry list of ulterior motives in everything they do, and get them to pass a law saying 'don't play ball on the beach', or whatever the hell the article reads now? Are we as a society so full of fail that the average citizen doesn't have the requisite problem solving capability to deal with a few kids playing ball? I'm really not seeing the value-add to society in having this type of regulation.

[Ghostbear]

You see... I personally feel that it is not the job of the government to protect it's citizens from themselves. Let us make mistakes. Let us fall down. Let us play ball on the fucking beach.

But.. this isn't protecting people from themselves. This is protecting people from other people! This isn't being done for the safety of the frisbee players.

I once read a book where they took the turn-people-to-stone part of a basilisk's brain, and the used it to design a software update for CCTV cameras. That would be highly effective to enforce a curfew.

I am not sure if this already possible in real life, but with increasing processor power it should surely be viable in a few more years.

I think it's stuck in the seemingly permanent 5-10 years away phase of upcoming technology.

[stevey_frac]

Right. But.. A frisbee to the face is a long fucking way from lethal. This legislation is a total crock. Let the other people on the beach deal with it. Don't start using the legislative branch to enforce social mores.

[Ghostbear]

Right. But.. A frisbee to the face is a long fucking way from lethal. This legislation is a total crock. Let the other people on the beach deal with it. Don't start using the legislative branch to enforce social mores.

The basis of your opposition is you didn't want the government protecting people from themselves, so when that isn't applicable in any way, shape, or form, it can't just be brushed aside. The lethality, of all things, is completely irrelevant; this is essentially a specific sub-law to "don't disturb the peace", such as not being allowed to be too loud for your neighbors (and hearing loud parties isn't lethal either!). One of the principle functions of government is to protect people from other people, this law is completely in line with that.

Promoting social darwinism doesn't justify being against this law any better either. Places such as public beaches are supposed to be used and enjoyed by the public, so when one subset of the public is making it difficult or even impossible for the rest of the public to enjoy that public space, it is up to the government to pass laws to fix that problem. In this case, ensuring that frisbee players are not able to trample all over everyone, yet still play in ways that don't make the space unenjoyable for others, as determined by lifeguards.

[AngelfishTitan]

Right. But.. A frisbee to the face is a long fucking way from lethal. This legislation is a total crock. Let the other people on the beach deal with it. Don't start using the legislative branch to enforce social mores.

At what level of harm, due to one's own negligence or intention, does it need to be to become illegal then?

[Griffin]

My only problem with this is that I'd much rather they ban the fuckers who lay all over the place getting in the way of people actually trying to USE the beach.

Basically, this is a case of two different groups of people with completely contradictory desires, where only one side can get what they want. And the lounging assholes outnumber the frisbee assholes.

[addams]

Frisbees are difficult to control, for me.

The beaches are getting that crowed? Huh?

I once knew a great deal about some beaches. I made a fire, nearly every night in a little portable B-B-Q thing. At the end of the evening I would take the thing down to the water's edge and throw the coals out and watch as the waves turned them black.

Well; Other people did not do it my way. Two other ways of making fire began to be used.
1. A fire in the sand that is covered when abandoned.
1.a) Problematic. Sweet clueless friends and lovers walked into HOT sand. Bad idea.
2. Giant Half 50 gallon drums were used to make a White Man's fire. The smoke and ash off one of those things is a hazard. At the end of the party, the contents were simply dumped where the drum was.
2. a) Hard on bare feet.

Yeah. So my favorite beach now has a NO FIRE regulation. (Shrug.) We have to find ways of living near to one another. There are a great many of us.

Frisbees seemed like such a nice way for people to make friends. I did not throw them much. I used them to dig and cover other people and myself with sand.

A very West Coast US problem. In Spain the people go out and launch themselves into the air. Great numbers of people do this and they all seem to get along quite well. Americans can't even play Frisbee without being Assholes?