Actual (Association) Football Talk.

[Amie]

Oh yeah... shit just got real.

I figured we should have a place to discuss news about the beautiful game.

So, England... Y'all want Harry Redknapp apparently? Personally, O'Neill strikes me as a much better fit but hey, I'm only a distant spectator.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

There's actually a meager, half-dead football thread in General.

[Amie]

Thanks for pointing it out. I did a search but there were over a hundred pages :S So this one should be deleted

[Radical_Initiator]

The last post in that thread is late 2010? I think it's fully dead by this point.

[Dream]

So, England... Y'all want Harry Redknapp apparently? Personally, O'Neill strikes me as a much better fit but hey, I'm only a distant spectator.

Redknapp has the current form, which is very important. But more important still is reforming the shambles of the national side. Redknapp is seen as someone who can babysit Premier League primadonnas, and has great experience of dealing with the top-top level players. Also, Norn Iron isn't Enlgand. And he's the popular choice. So I think he's a shoo-in.

[charliepanayi]

What with Arsenal's woes, Liverpool likely to win a trophy despite being awful, Spurs riding high and the whole world mystifyingly convinced that Harry 'one trophy in 30 years of management' Redknapp is the man to manage England, I really hope Euro 2012 hurries up quickly.

[Amie]

They considered O'Neill for the job before they did Capello, right? If that's the case I'm sure O'Neill's having a laugh now because he'll be the best manager England never had. From whatever I've seen of Sunderland, he's damn good. Now he's backing Redknapp for the job. Le sigh.

[Jesse]

MON is a hero, and should have had the England job before Steve McLaren was ever considered. As it is though, the England job is the death knell for managers, so I'd much rather O'Neill stayed well away from it and continued the sterling job he's just started doing at Sunderland. I'm a fan of Redknapp as a manager, but I don't like him enough that I'd cry if he failed at the England job, so I'm quite happy for him to take it on.

[Dream]

O'Neill, if he's smart, will stay at Sunderland until he's got some silverware. Shouldn't take him too long, by the look of things. Then maybe Man United, with Fergie going in a couple of years.

[charliepanayi]

O'Neill, if he's smart, will stay at Sunderland until he's got some silverware. Shouldn't take him too long, by the look of things. Then maybe Man United, with Fergie going in a couple of years.

Well I'm not sure it's that inevitable that Sunderland will pick up silverware, even with O'Neill. It's increasingly hard these days to win trophies as even the domestic cups often get hogged by the same few teams. But they have a shot at the FA Cup this year maybe.

[Garm]

I don't think Redknapp is good enough to coach the national team and I don't think he'd stand up well to the pressures of the international circuit.

In general, I think England is getting kind of old. Maybe they can find a few more Gareth Bales.

[Dream]

O'Neill, if he's smart, will stay at Sunderland until he's got some silverware. Shouldn't take him too long, by the look of things. Then maybe Man United, with Fergie going in a couple of years.

Well I'm not sure it's that inevitable that Sunderland will pick up silverware, even with O'Neill. It's increasingly hard these days to win trophies as even the domestic cups often get hogged by the same few teams. But they have a shot at the FA Cup this year maybe.

I'd love to see them take Liverpool on the way. Can't get behind that club until they sell Suarez.

[charliepanayi]

O'Neill, if he's smart, will stay at Sunderland until he's got some silverware. Shouldn't take him too long, by the look of things. Then maybe Man United, with Fergie going in a couple of years.

Well I'm not sure it's that inevitable that Sunderland will pick up silverware, even with O'Neill. It's increasingly hard these days to win trophies as even the domestic cups often get hogged by the same few teams. But they have a shot at the FA Cup this year maybe.

I'd love to see them take Liverpool on the way. Can't get behind that club until they sell Suarez.

Can't be a very big fan of Chelsea or Man Utd either huh.

[Amie]

Or Arsenal.

So surprised that you left that one out of the list, cp

[Rodion Raskolnikov]

I've always thought O'Neill was a slightly overrated manager. He is good, maybe very good, but for me his is not good enough for the top clubs like Man Utd. Most of my opinion of him is based on his time at Celtic, where he unquestionably was very successful. But he did have Henrik Larsson, which makes things easier. (Larsson is by a distance the best player I have seen in Scottish football.) He was also able to spend large amounts of money by SPL standards - £6million for Sutton, £6million for Lennon, a massive contact for Balde etc. A reasonably poor Rangers side under McLeish won the title twice ahead of Celtic and O'Neill couldn't get Celtic out the group stages of the Champions League. Strachan came in afterwards and got them to the last 16 twice playing much more attractive football with considerably less to spend, and no Larsson.
However, I think he is clearly a very good motivator, and in my opinion superior to 'arry Redknapp in almost every way.

Full disclosure: I am an Aberdeen fan, so my feelings about the Old Firm in general may colour my views of people associated with those clubs.

[ElWanderer]

I've always thought O'Neill was a slightly overrated manager. He is good, maybe very good, but for me his is not good enough for the top clubs like Man Utd... However, I think he is clearly a very good motivator, and in my opinion superior to 'arry Redknapp in almost every way.

I agree, mostly. People can go over the top with "manager X is great", "manager Y is rubbish"... often a lot seems down to whether the particular club structure, players and manager style all mesh together. I think whoever eventually takes over at Man Utd will have to have a very strong personality, especially if Fergie wants to stay on at the club in any capacity - one reason why Jose Mourinho's name comes up a lot! I could see O'Neill wanting to do it*, but I could also see him walking away quite quickly if the atmosphere isn't right for him.

Meanwhile, my club (Wolves) seem to be making a hash of finding a new manager. Mick McCarthy for England, anyone? Would improve the post-match interviews no end...

* after typing this, I realise it could be taken as referring to either the Man Utd or England jobs. I'm not so sure he'd want to manage England, to be honest. With the current malaise, who would?!

[charliepanayi]

Or Arsenal.

So surprised that you left that one out of the list, cp

To be fair (and I know a fat lot of good it does as on the pitch at the moment), we don't have any player with as unsavoury a rap sheet as Suarez, Terry or Rooney.

[Dream]

Mick McCarthy for England, anyone? Would improve the post-match interviews no end...

His international job with Ireland was a bit rubbish, management-wise. But if you put Roy Keane on all the TV panels, you'd get an entertaining show! Seriously though, he wouldn't be the worst choice, not by a mile.

Or Arsenal.

So surprised that you left that one out of the list, cp

To be fair (and I know a fat lot of good it does as on the pitch at the moment), we don't have any player with as unsavoury a rap sheet as Suarez, Terry or Rooney.

As an Arsenal fan, there's no-one remotely like them anywhere near the team. But Suarez does really have to go from that team. Imagine how the dressing room feels with him there, and everything he's done to the club out of childish selfishness.

[Amie]

To be fair (and I know a fat lot of good it does as on the pitch at the moment), we don't have any player with as unsavoury a rap sheet as Suarez, Terry or Rooney.

There can be a lot of arguments that can be made for Terry. But I won't get into that because THIS article here says all that needs to be said about the great man. That's what England lost. Judging a man without even giving him a fair trial and also crappy trial-by-media bullshit is annoying.

[Garm]

My main problem with Terry is that he's a douche on the pitch. To make a cross-sports reference, he whines harder than Tim Duncan (or to stick with the same sport, Terry whines more than Renaldo). Terry's also not afraid to leave a boot in if he thinks he can get away with it and I just don't have a lot of tolerance for that. He's quite good tho' which is frustrating when you want him to fail.

[Dream]

But I won't get into that because THIS article here says all that needs to be said about the great man.

Sounds like you're a fan, and think well of him. To me, being generous is easy if you're wealthy, and I wouldn't be impressed too much by it. Similarly, if you're a club captain, paying attention to the youth sides and injured players is pretty basic job description stuff. To contrast this, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer gave away his entire testimonial gate, and works full time with the Man United development sides when he could be retired wealthy, or managing and developing a lucrative future career. So, what Terry is described as in that article isn't exactly top drawer stuff even among Premier League players. It's nice and all, but not character defining. If he's guilty of what he's accused of, none of this will moderate my opinion of him at all.

To make a cross-sports reference, he whines harder than Tim Duncan (or to stick with the same sport, Terry whines more than Renaldo). Terry's also not afraid to leave a boot in if he thinks he can get away with it

Which I think is a great indictment of his character, as was not resigning the England captaincy voluntarily to deflect the scandal from the team.

[Amie]

To me, being generous is easy if you're wealthy, and I wouldn't be impressed too much by it. Similarly, if you're a club captain, paying attention to the youth sides and injured players is pretty basic job description stuff.

The article states that this was well before we had any real money and Terry wasn't paid handsomely well because this was pre-Roman. On paper, sure the job description states that you have to pay attention but paying for someone's vacation and taking care of an ailing masseuse? That's not part of any job description and it's a noble thing he did.

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer gave away his entire testimonial gate, and works full time with the Man United development sides when he could be retired wealthy, or managing and developing a lucrative future career.

Which is why I'll always respect him. It doesn't matter what team you're from if you're a good footballer. I've always loved the game more than club rivalry and for that I've been called names but fuck all that.

To make a cross-sports reference, he whines harder than Tim Duncan (or to stick with the same sport, Terry whines more than Renaldo). Terry's also not afraid to leave a boot in if he thinks he can get away with it

Seriously? You look at a man with an impeccable record and go "butbut... he whines!" and this is not to say that I agree with you for a second... but yeah.

Which I think is a great indictment of his character, as was not resigning the England captaincy voluntarily to deflect the scandal from the team.

Why would he do that? He's not pleading guilty and the "scandal" was really a case of making a mountain out of a molehill. If all the heap of articles would come if he were to be judged guilty, I'd get it. Yes I am a Chelsea supporter and I love John Terry but I'd still understand it.

In any case, I don't want to turn this into a CLUB WARS FUCK YEAH thread so I'll not say anything more about it.

[Garm]

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about John Terry, but when I watch Chelsea play, I always see him working the refs. I mention Duncan because he, like Terry, is a great player. I don't have a lot of respect for either one of them because in their greatness they should rise above such petty gamesmanship (same can be said for many basketball players, Duncan is just known for his complaining. Kobe works the refs like nobody's business). I think that all great players will say something to the refs, it's human nature. For people like Terry or Duncan, it's as much a facet of their game as their great footwork and I'm sad for that.

On another level, I think sports scandals are often blown way out of proportion. You've got your run of the mill sex scandals (or Tiger Wood's, which was vast), and you've got your money or drugs or whatever. For a certain amount of malfeasance, I don't give two hoots about what the player does (Micheal Vick and Ray Lewis are terrible people. All those morons who are dealing coke in the locker room need serious help. Diddling someone's wife, smoking pot, or even taking PEDs just kind of makes you a fallible person but doesn't exclude you from the ranks of humanity). Too me, what matters, is performance, and attitude, on the field. I don't have a lot of patience for players like Nigel DeJong. And I don't have a lot of respect for Terry because of the things that I mentioned. He's a great footballer and a very experienced one as well. I've seen him come in cleats up too many times for my taste (or bringing his trailing leg through). I can believe that he would say something racist if he thought he could piss off another player in order to gain an advantage over him. Or, you know, got angry and said something unfortunate instead of punching Ferdinand in the head. Anyway, I think that we focus on these things because for some strange reason we think that people who play sports ought to be role models.

Lots of rambling, sorry.

[Rodion Raskolnikov]

There can be a lot of arguments that can be made for Terry. But I won't get into that because THIS article here says all that needs to be said about the great man. That's what England lost. Judging a man without even giving him a fair trial and also crappy trial-by-media bullshit is annoying.

What is bullshit is people playing "innocent until proven guilty" line. He has not been punished, and his innocence or guilt hs nothing to do with the captaincy. It was taken away from him for the good of the team as a whole. How can Terry being expected to perform the dual roles of being the only decent centreback in a team that has massively high expectations heaped on it, as well as taking on the role of captaiin when he has a trial waiting for him when he gets home? Not to mention the question of whether the entire squad will respect him and be happy having him as their respresentative. No matter what the law says I'm sure most of those players already have an opinion on whether he did it or not already.

One of England's problems is they don't have very many good centre backs other than Terry and Ferdinand, and he always seems to be injured, so they will probably have to play him.

[Dream]

To me, being generous is easy if you're wealthy, and I wouldn't be impressed too much by it. Similarly, if you're a club captain, paying attention to the youth sides and injured players is pretty basic job description stuff.

The article states that this was well before we had any real money and Terry wasn't paid handsomely well because this was pre-Roman. On paper, sure the job description states that you have to pay attention but paying for someone's vacation and taking care of an ailing masseuse? That's not part of any job description and it's a noble thing he did.
....

Which I think is a great indictment of his character, as was not resigning the England captaincy voluntarily to deflect the scandal from the team.

Why would he do that? He's not pleading guilty and the "scandal" was really a case of making a mountain out of a molehill. If all the heap of articles would come if he were to be judged guilty, I'd get it. Yes I am a Chelsea supporter and I love John Terry but I'd still understand it.

In any case, I don't want to turn this into a CLUB WARS FUCK YEAH thread so I'll not say anything more about it.

It won't be club wars. I don't care, as you don't, who plays for who, but I do care how they represent the game. Racism, homophobia, respecting officials, ostentatious wealth, respecting their own clubs, generally being ambassadors for the sport. I care about all of that a great deal, and I can occasionally get very worked up about it.

I still think you have a rose tinted view of Terry. You say he bought a car for a masseur, but he actually organised a whip round for it. You say he was generous before Abramovich as if captaining Chelsea the early 2000s didn't earn you a huge amount of money. You say he paid for a holiday for an injured youth player, but he actually OK'd a payment form the club fine jar for it. You're exaggerating the good in those, because as a fan, you like him. That's fine, I don't mind, but please don't think differing from that view is a partisan attack from a rival supporter.

About the England captaincy, one of the things you have to accept when you captain a side is that you have to be cleaner than clean. Whenever I see Joey Barton play, I think only of him stubbing a cigar in a teammate's eye. And I think of his club as tolerant of that for allowing him the captaincy. I was greatly disappointed with Patrice Evra for inciting the crowd at Suarez after that match, while wearing the captain's armband. (And as I said, I hate Suarez.) Changing sports again, Martin Johnson will always be the ignorant arse who came to Croke Park and made the President of Ireland leave her red carpet to shake hands with the England team. You don't have to be guilty of a crime to have the way you behave drag your team down instead of leading it by example. None of these men did anything that should strip them of the captaincy, but all of them let down their supporters with their behaviour, because they should have been captains through and through.

Whether or not Terry actually said anything racist is for the courts to decide. But his abuse of Anton Ferdinand, racist or not, caused the scandal, and he should realise that it was his actions that brought all of the undesirable, distracting media attention onto him and his position. This would not have happened had he carried himself with the dignity his club and country should expect of him. The FA were right to strip him, and he was wrong to make them do it.

How can Terry being expected to perform the dual roles of being the only decent centreback in a team that has massively high expectations heaped on it, as well as taking on the role of captaiin when he has a trial waiting for him when he gets home?

That would have been Capello's call to make, not the FA's. The FA stepped in because they didn't want Terry representing English football until he was cleared.

[Garm]

Good post Dream.

I like your point about the rose-tinted view of our sports heroes. I was trying to get at that in my previous post but got side tracked. I totally understand where Amie is coming from in supporting her guy, Terry. I love Barry Bonds. I think he's kind of a douche, but holy cow could that guy play. Point being, I don't think anyone is unsympathetic to your (Amie) views.

[Dream]

I like your point about the rose-tinted view of our sports heroes.

I wouldn't use the word "hero", but I've been telling myself Andre Arshavin is an asset to the team for at least a year. Aaron Ramsey needs to go though. Even I can see that.

[charliepanayi]

Whoa Arshavin I can agree with when it comes to needing to go - but Ramsey? No way.

Damn you Euro 2012 hurry up and provide a break from this torment!

[Dream]

Didn't see that coming at all. Wow. Presumably he'll have to apologise personally to Mancini, but then maybe we'll see him back in? I was actually going to mention him in my post about respecting your club, him, or Rooney's "I'll go to City, just watch me" bullshit. I was sure he'd end up leaving the club. Maybe not...

EDIT: That is, Carlos "I'll play when I damn well want to" Tevez I'm on about BTW.

Also, yes, Ramsey. He has no first touch, and often starves van Persie of momentum or possession. He was an absolute cart horse at San Siro, worst of the lot, I thought.

[Telchar]

Serious question: What are the responsibilities of the coach/game manager of a fussball team? My understanding of the game and similar continuous play games (basketball, rugby, hockey, etc...) are that they set a line up of starters, set substitutions, use time outs etc...

[ElWanderer]

Serious question: What are the responsibilities of the coach/game manager of a fussball team? My understanding of the game and similar continuous play games (basketball, rugby, hockey, etc...) are that they set a line up of starters, set substitutions, use time outs etc...

The exact responsibilities depend on the club set-up. For a professional club, from an English point of view:
Outside of matches, managers are in charge of buying and selling players, running training sessions and talking to the media. There's almost always someone else (the club chairman) in charge of the money, so a manager may not be able to buy a player if the chairman won't let them - a common source of friction within a club. Some clubs separate out responsibilities - a coach to take training sessions, a "director of football" to make transfer decisions and a manager to run the team itself. Here, we tend to prefer having one person in charge of everything.

For a match, the manager picks the squad and team, tells them what formation he wants them to play in and how they should play. Then during the match, they're in charge of substitutions and can keep up a flow of instructions to the players. Modern regulations have a small white box (the "technical area") marked by the sideline where they're allowed to stand and shout abuse at the ref instructions, encouragement and updates to their players. There are no time-outs, unless the MLS have tried to introduce them...

To the players, the manager is usually their most important superior - the club might pay their wages and the chairman might decide they need to sell a player to raise money, but ultimately it's the manager who picks the team. If a player's life-style is becoming an issue (easy when they're paid so much and have a lot of free time), they're not training hard enough or they're unhappy at missing out on games due to squad rotation, it's typically the manager who will have a word. The man management is often the most important part of the job.

I wrote all that, then realised I could have just linked to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manager_%2 ... ootball%29

[Garm]

With Fussball, the game is socratic in nature. The manager arranges his players, trains them for offense (wing play with crosses, counter attack, etc...) and defense (high pressing line, offsides trap, and so on) and then puts them out on the field to see what happens. For American Football, the coaching style is the opposite of that, namely very dictatorial. QBs have a radio in their helmet to receive the plays. Of course the great thing about both games is that those who are creative or show imagination in their play are the ones who rise above the humdrum of the sport. Messi's ability to weave through three defenders and find a teammate who's making a backdoor cut is amazing. Same with Manning or Brady's ability to read a defense and call a different play.

[Dream]

The fluid nature of football is my favourite aspect of it. I'm a much bigger rugby fan, and the great appeal of football is getting away from the set piece, heavily drilled and disciplined asects of that game.

I missed United/Ajax this evening, but apparently United barely scraped it, holding off a siege in the last few minutes where an away goal would have kicked them out of the Europa. Wish I'd watched it now.

[Amie]

You say he was generous before Abramovich as if captaining Chelsea the early 2000s didn't earn you a huge amount of money. You say he paid for a holiday for an injured youth player, but he actually OK'd a payment form the club fine jar for it. You're exaggerating the good in those, because as a fan, you like him. That's fine, I don't mind, but please don't think differing from that view is a partisan attack from a rival supporter.

He wasn't obligated to, in any way, to do those things. Someone of his stature would be respected either way. But he did do those things and that was nice. That's all I'm saying. It's nice to think of the good things he's done. I agree about the racism and if he's charged guilty, I will respect him less but he will still be a good footballer.

[Dream]

I knew Arsenal had it in them! You can't be 4th in the League after a start to the season like thiers without having serious class. Hopefully they'll beat Chelsea next, hang on to the 4th Champions League spot, and think about catching Spurs. It's going to be a fun end to the season

[charliepanayi]

I knew Arsenal had it in them! You can't be 4th in the League after a start to the season like thiers without having serious class. Hopefully they'll beat Chelsea next, hang on to the 4th Champions League spot, and think about catching Spurs. It's going to be a fun end to the season

We have Liverpool and Newcastle up next (Chelsea at home is late April, could be crucial), and Spurs play Man Utd next week. If we win the next two I'll at least have hopes of 4th (I think the gap to Spurs is probably too much to bridge), but you never know with us. Today was nice at least.

[yedidyak]

I knew Arsenal had it in them! You can't be 4th in the League after a start to the season like thiers without having serious class. Hopefully they'll beat Chelsea next, hang on to the 4th Champions League spot, and think about catching Spurs. It's going to be a fun end to the season

Really picked the wrong game to watch today. I'm a proud former-Mancunian, and so have an excuse to support United. But watching United-Norwich whilst getting updates on the Spurs-Arsenal game was painful. Except those last 7-8 minutes until Giggs saved the day. Who'd have though Scholes and Giggs would still be scoring together in 2012??

[Jesse]

Dons had a good 1-0 win against Bournemouth on Saturday, really pleased with that, starting to really cement our place in the play-offs, don't see us falling beyond where we are now, which is nice.

[Garm]

I know it's not EPL but the Rapids start their season on March 10th. I'm very excited. Sadly, going to miss the opener because of previous, inescapable, obligations.

[yedidyak]

There was a friendly game in Israel today between Maccabi Haifa and Dynamo Kiev. It was incredibly windy, which led to this incredible own-goal.