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Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:38 pm UTC
by Роберт
A Cracked article for the "news and articles" forum. I've noticed some of the fallacies happening here so I thought it would be useful to post. I know I've done so in the past and will in the future, but it's nice to keep them in mind so you do it less:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-reasons-h ... ach-other/

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:32 pm UTC
by quantumcat42
Great article, thanks for sharing.

Alexander Hamilton wrote:Ambition, avarice, personal animosity, party opposition, and many other motives not more laudable than these, are apt to operate as well upon those who support as those who oppose the right side of a question. Were there not even these inducements to moderation, nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:11 pm UTC
by Mighty Jalapeno
Despite being Cracked... wow. Nice.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:04 am UTC
by Jave D
I like that article.

Except for all the commentators who wrote about how it wasn't funny or good and thus sucked. Those people just suck. They probably pursue the cause of suckiness because they hate the world, since they are not really human and want to destroy everything.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:11 am UTC
by sourmìlk
Eh, they're all trolls. I really don't like this posting of a cracked article on the N&A forum. I like cracked as much as the next guy, but it's not news.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:46 am UTC
by meatyochre
sourmìlk wrote:Eh, they're all trolls. I really don't like this posting of a cracked article on the N&A forum. I like cracked as much as the next guy, but it's not news.

It's still an article :O

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 am UTC
by sourmìlk
But it's not like just any article flies here, right? Like, if I posted a wikipedia article about Simpsons Episode 12 of Season 17, or something, that's an article but I don't think it would fit this forum.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:09 am UTC
by Magnanimous
We don't have a thread for Cracked already, and it's interesting, so...

One of the reasons I love Cracked is how the editors sneak rationalist/feminist articles like this into the comedy mix. See The 8 Stupidest Defenses Against Accusations of Sexism, which has one of my favorite sentences.
If you think hot women have it easy because everyone wants to have sex at them, you're both wrong and also the reason you're wrong.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:10 am UTC
by sourmìlk
Mind you, that article then went on to "insult" sexists by saying they're all virgins.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:57 am UTC
by lutzj
sourmìlk wrote:Mind you, that article then went on to "insult" sexists by saying they're all virgins.


To be fair, the article was specifically addressing defenders of sexist comics, who, presumably, get less action that your run-of-the-mill sexists.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:21 am UTC
by ameretrifle
lutzj wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Mind you, that article then went on to "insult" sexists by saying they're all virgins.


To be fair, the article was specifically addressing defenders of sexist comics, who, presumably, get less action that your run-of-the-mill sexists.

...So because it's "true", it's less hypocritical somehow...? What?

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:09 am UTC
by Diadem
I like this quote
If you really want to know what it's like for someone else, you have to be able to picture them in their shoes. Not you.

Very true.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:08 am UTC
by benpipe
This is true humans will never understand each other and they will always find other as enemies.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:30 pm UTC
by Jave D
ameretrifle wrote:
lutzj wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Mind you, that article then went on to "insult" sexists by saying they're all virgins.


To be fair, the article was specifically addressing defenders of sexist comics, who, presumably, get less action that your run-of-the-mill sexists.

...So because it's "true", it's less hypocritical somehow...? What?


Hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:04 pm UTC
by Роберт
sourmìlk wrote:But it's not like just any article flies here, right? Like, if I posted a wikipedia article about Simpsons Episode 12 of Season 17, or something, that's an article but I don't think it would fit this forum.

If we need to, we could create a thread for "articles that don't really deserve their own thread" sort of like the "in other news" thread. I just thought this one happened to be significantly relevant to this forum, so I posted it.

Jave D wrote:I like that article.

Except for all the commentators who wrote about how it wasn't funny or good and thus sucked. Those people just suck. They probably pursue the cause of suckiness because they hate the world, since they are not really human and want to destroy everything.
Cracked readers... you can't understand them. :lol:

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:05 pm UTC
by Mighty Jalapeno
Jave D wrote:Hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.

Lying to yourself and honesty aren't mutually exclusive?

Please, explain. I am eager to learn.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:26 pm UTC
by Kizyr
lutzj wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Mind you, that article then went on to "insult" sexists by saying they're all virgins.

To be fair, the article was specifically addressing defenders of sexist comics, who, presumably, get less action that your run-of-the-mill sexists.

More than that, the article was specifically addressing people who'd commented in his earlier article (the X most sexist depictions of women in comics -- can't remember the exact title offhand and I can't access Cracked here). It's more so insulting commenters in that previous thread, then segueing from that into a broader discussion on sexism in comics.

On the original topic, I think it's appropriate to discuss relevant/interesting Cracked articles here. It's not only news that gets discussed in N&A.

Jave D wrote:Except for all the commentators who wrote about how it wasn't funny or good and thus sucked. Those people just suck. They probably pursue the cause of suckiness because they hate the world, since they are not really human and want to destroy everything.

Cracked commenters are like 50% trolls. Some of the columnists take frequent jabs at the commenters (though not all -- Luke reads the comments, John Cheese never does, e.g.). And occasionally stupid comments get called out altogether rather -- the "stupidest defenses of sexism" article was entirely borne out of, well, stupid defenses of sexism in an earlier article. KF

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:28 pm UTC
by sourmìlk
I'm not worried about the truth value of the statement that sexists are more likely to be virgins (though I sort of doubt it), but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:32 pm UTC
by Kizyr
sourmìlk wrote:I'm not worried about the truth value of the statement that sexists are more likely to be virgins (though I sort of doubt it), but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.

Now that you mention it, yes, that really did bug me too when I first read the article. KF

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:46 pm UTC
by Роберт
sourmìlk wrote:I'm not worried about the truth value of the statement that sexists are more likely to be virgins (though I sort of doubt it), but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.

I kinda thought he was being tongue in cheek with those comments, as he was responding to commenters that called him "gay" for not liking sexist artwork in comics.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
by Heisenberg
Yes, when you encounter blatant hypocrisy on a humor website, it's fair to assume that the hypocrisy was intentional and meant to be humorous.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:28 pm UTC
by Belial
sourmìlk wrote:but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.


So what you're saying is that the content of a humour website wouldn't pass muster in debate club?

Well, I'm goddamn scandalized. I'm getting all lightheaded like that time I learned that the pieces on the Daily Show aren't classroom examples of television journalism.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:29 pm UTC
by sourmìlk
It's possible to both be funny and debate logically. Admittedly I can't quite pull it off, but still.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:12 pm UTC
by Iulus Cofield
I have determined every post in this thread to have been written by a shallow, pedantic hater.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:02 pm UTC
by moiraemachy
sourmìlk wrote:I'm not worried about the truth value of the statement that sexists are more likely to be virgins (though I sort of doubt it), but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.


I may be giving the author too much credit, but I thought the idea wasn't to imply that virgins are losers, it was more along the lines of "if you are sexist enough to defend these point, you probably are a male who is bound to gender roles and evaluate other male's worth by how much they get laid. So let's poke where it hurts".

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:31 pm UTC
by Jave D
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Jave D wrote:Hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.

Lying to yourself and honesty aren't mutually exclusive?

Please, explain. I am eager to learn.


Hypocrisy is saying "do X" while doing Y. This doesn't mean that doing X is, in truth, not a good thing to do.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:51 am UTC
by ameretrifle
moiraemachy wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I'm not worried about the truth value of the statement that sexists are more likely to be virgins (though I sort of doubt it), but using virgin as an insult is both dickish and an ad-Hominem.


I may be giving the author too much credit, but I thought the idea wasn't to imply that virgins are losers, it was more along the lines of "if you are sexist enough to defend these point, you probably are a male who is bound to gender roles and evaluate other male's worth by how much they get laid. So let's poke where it hurts".

That's the interpretation I'm hoping is correct, which is why I'm not too fussed about it; but playing into sexist and heteronormative stereotypes is kind of dissonant and hypocritical in an article attacking sexism. Yes, it is humor. But it is also trying to make a point, and does it being comedy really mean you can't point out how it might be undercutting its own point?

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:07 am UTC
by CorruptUser
I had a falling out with a close friend over stuff like this. I claimed that Bush had good intentions but that he was making mistakes. He declared that I was an idiot for seeing Bush as anything other than a demon hellbent on sucking the lifeblood of the US (or a puppet of another hellspawn).

Oh, and he claimed I was an idiot for even trying to bring up any type of criticisms about any righteous infallible heroic heroes like Mandela, MLK, or Harvey Milk. Never mind the manipulation and the lies, if it was for a good cause the ends always justifies the means!

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:03 am UTC
by Mighty Jalapeno
Jave D wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Jave D wrote:Hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.

Lying to yourself and honesty aren't mutually exclusive?

Please, explain. I am eager to learn.


Hypocrisy is saying "do X" while doing Y. This doesn't mean that doing X is, in truth, not a good thing to do.

Correct. Now explain how hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:19 am UTC
by elasto
CorruptUser wrote:I had a falling out with a close friend over stuff like this. I claimed that Bush had good intentions but that he was making mistakes. He declared that I was an idiot for seeing Bush as anything other than a demon hellbent on sucking the lifeblood of the US (or a puppet of another hellspawn).

Oh, and he claimed I was an idiot for even trying to bring up any type of criticisms about any righteous infallible heroic heroes like Mandela, MLK, or Harvey Milk. Never mind the manipulation and the lies, if it was for a good cause the ends always justifies the means!
I think this could have been a section of the article:

People critique those they like by their intentions - frequently assuming the best possible intentions - rationalising away observed differences between assumed intentions and observed actions. People critique those they dislike in the opposite fashion.

I think humans essentially operate driven by gut instinct - with the rational mind not so much directing and controlling belief as slavishly seeking to rationalise and justify conclusions already arrived at subconsciously.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:50 am UTC
by sourmìlk
Jalapeno is right here: hypocrisy is mutually exclusive with truth because hypocrisy constitutes a contradiction. If you hold two opposing stances, one has to be wrong, i.e. untruthful.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:56 am UTC
by Shivahn
elasto wrote:People critique those they like by their intentions - frequently assuming the best possible intentions - rationalising away observed differences between assumed intentions and observed actions. People critique those they dislike in the opposite fashion.

It's really just a case of extended attribution error. People attribute their own failures to situations and others' to personality flaws.

When I'm late, it's because the car wouldn't start and then traffic sucked, but everyone else should've left earlier in case they had traffic.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:31 pm UTC
by kiklion
Shivahn wrote:
elasto wrote:People critique those they like by their intentions - frequently assuming the best possible intentions - rationalising away observed differences between assumed intentions and observed actions. People critique those they dislike in the opposite fashion.

It's really just a case of extended attribution error. People attribute their own failures to situations and others' to personality flaws.

When I'm late, it's because the car wouldn't start and then traffic sucked, but everyone else should've left earlier in case they had traffic.


People really think that? I mean, sure I understand people saying those things when arriving late to work to attempt to deflect blame. I've said I was late because of a traffic when really I was at a deli where the person who took my order forgot about me for 30 minutes and I am too non-confrontational to bring it up, but I really knew I should have left the deli earlier or gotten her attention and reminded her what I ordered.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:02 pm UTC
by Belial
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Correct. Now explain how hypocrisy and being truthful are not mutually exclusive.


Because if I'm doing Y, but I say "you should do X", that doesn't make "you should do X" a lie.

FOR EXAMPLE.

Common occurence: let's say I, between drags on my cigarette, tell you that smoking is a filthy habit and you shouldn't start it. And you should quit it if you've already started.

Is that a lie? Am I being dishonest, just because I'm smoking while I say it? No, but I am being hypocritical. Maybe I have reason to be: maybe I'm not strong or dedicated enough to carry out what I know to be the right course of action, but that doesn't stop me from telling you what that course would be.

Or maybe I think smoking is awesome and I'm trying to keep all the cigarettes for myself. Only at that point would I be dishonest.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:29 pm UTC
by KnightExemplar
I agree with Belial.

Other examples that I can think of (some more controversial than others):
* Thinking a video game tactic is "cheap" and needs to be removed from a game, but abusing it anyway so that you can get a better score than the opponent.
* A presidential candidate can be against Super-pacs but still use them because not using them would put him at a significant disadvantage against his foes.

They make terrible political points, but it doesn't change the fact that the debater is correct in his argument. He's just himself a hypocrite.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:47 pm UTC
by quantumcat42
KnightExemplar wrote:* Thinking a video game tactic is "cheap" and needs to be removed from a game, but abusing it anyway so that you can get a better score than the opponent.
* A presidential candidate can be against Super-pacs but still use them because not using them would put him at a significant disadvantage against his foes.

I don't know that either of those would be necessarily "hypocritical"; it depends on the actual stance expressed. If the gamer says "they should take out this cheat" but uses it anyway, or if the candidate says "Super PACs shouldn't be legal" but raises funds with them, that's just working in the real world. They may honestly wish the rules were different, but they don't have a problem working with the rules they're given. But If the gamer says "people shouldn't use this cheat" or the candidate says "people shouldn't accept the support of Super PACs", then we're dealing with hypocrisy.

I've actually seen Belial's smoking example IRL -- a friend's dad was trying to quit, but couldn't do it. He pulled over and lit a cigarette, passionately admonishing us the whole time never to take up smoking. Hypocrisy, yes, but not unreasonably so...

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:48 pm UTC
by Belial
quantumcat42 wrote:I've actually seen Belial's smoking example IRL


There's a reason I led with "common occurrence". It's a thing a loooot of smokers say.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:19 pm UTC
by quantumcat42
Belial wrote:
quantumcat42 wrote:I've actually seen Belial's smoking example IRL


There's a reason I led with "common occurrence". It's a thing a loooot of smokers say.

Hey, I'm just pushing it one anecdote closer to data :D

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:43 pm UTC
by Mighty Jalapeno
Exactly. You're lying to yourself, no matter how you slice it.

Re: Humans will never understand each other

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:49 pm UTC
by Radical_Initiator
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Exactly. You're lying to yourself, no matter how you slice it.

I'm actually not seeing how that amounts to "lying to yourself". The person knows smoking is bad for them, would like to quit because they know it is (quite truthfully) bad for them, but ends up not quitting because of something else. That person knows exactly why they're not quitting or not going to quit.