Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

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Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Qaanol » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:05 pm UTC

Mr. Geraldo Rivera of le Fox “News” has blamed the hoodie Trayvon Martin was wearing for his being shot to death.

MSNBC wrote:“I believe that George Zimmerman, the overzealous neighborhood watch captain, should be investigated to the fullest extent of the law, and if he is criminally liable he should be prosecuted. But I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly to not let their children go out wearing hoodies,” Rivera said.

“I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

He added: "You have to recognize that this whole stylizing yourself as a gangsta, you’re going to be a gangsta-wannabe, well people are going to perceive you as a menace."


*yaaaawn*

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby lutzj » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:56 pm UTC

I usually like Geraldo, but I think he's dead wrong with regards to this situation. Clothing (short of maybe "ski mask and bulletproof vest") should certainly not be a factor when making the decision to use deadly force. On top of that, hoodies are pretty commonplace nowadays and don't seem to carry the same "gangster" connotation that, say, excessively baggy pants do.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Tirian » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:58 pm UTC

This from a guy who has been hiding behind a porn mustache for the last thirty years.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Jave D » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:10 pm UTC

The shooter was only half as responsible for his actions as the hoodie? Yeah that's how personal responsibility works in the era of Fox "He/She Was Asking For It" Nation I guess. In the real world, a man is responsible for his behavior. Fully responsible.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Dark Avorian » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:17 pm UTC

Wow...even though I have to admit that when I heard that his girlfriend told him to "put his hood up and get away" I thought it was bad advice, I still think this fucked up beyond all possible imagination (oh wait, now, I've heard of things far worse in America...)
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:40 pm UTC

I'm so glad that sexism is over and now we can blame both men and women for the crimes of which they were victims because of their clothes. I might relent if somebody shows me that wearing a hoody demonstrably and empirically makes you more likely to get shot. Then it's still not even slightly the victim's fault, but one could still say that he shouldn't have done that.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby IcedT » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:03 am UTC

Well guys, you heard it from the authorities- it's okay to shoot kids in the street, as long as they're wearing hoodies!

Seriously. The fuck is this.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Elvish Pillager » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:35 am UTC

[pedant] He said that the hoodie was as much responsible. So you're still responsible for up to one half of a murder. [/pedant]
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Obby » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:48 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:[pedant] He said that the hoodie was as much responsible. So you're still responsible for up to one half of a murder. [/pedant]

Let me know when they start throwing those menacing hoodies in the slammer with the hardened criminals.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Thesh » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:56 am UTC

I'm actually more annoyed by certain people currently campaigning for the 2012 presidential election exploiting it than I am the victim blaming. Although, Romney I can understand, him wanting to say "Look at me, I'm not racist". Obama is only going to push moderates to the right by focusing on a race issue, especially after the cambridge thing, which isn't the business of the president either. Sure, he's entitled to his opinion, but he doesn't need to call a press conference just to give it.

However, the outrage and media circus surrounding this is excessive. The officer who shot a native american in the back because he was carving wood while walking down the street didn't get this much attention, and that was much more clean cut (the officer who did it was simply forced to resign as punishment). Zimmerman had no business confronting someone walking down the street, but he wasn't breaking the law by doing so. However, his actions resulted in a fight, and given that fact that he had injuries means that it's not an open and shut case. I highly doubt his life was in danger when he pulled the gun, but the police need to take their time and build their case, and the local pressure is probably enough to make them take it seriously. However, they need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty, and while it may seem to be the case, that's based on assumptions and intuition, not fact.

Also:

Barack Obama wrote:If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.


Yeah, because all black people look alike.[/sarcasm]
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Dobblesworth » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:45 am UTC

Wearing the hood up on fleece clothing at night in February in the northern hemisphere seems pretty justified to me.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Thesh » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:53 am UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:Wearing the hood up on fleece clothing at night in February in the northern hemisphere seems pretty justified to me.


You do realize that gang members sometimes wear hoods, right? They also walk around in clothing, which allows them to conceal weapons and cash that they steal. Anyone who doesn't walk around naked is asking to get shot.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:59 am UTC

But if they do walk around naked, then they're supposedly asking for rape :roll:

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Qaanol » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:49 am UTC

Thesh wrote:However, the outrage and media circus surrounding this is excessive.
<snip>
I highly doubt his life was in danger when he pulled the gun, but the police need to take their time and build their case, and the local pressure is probably enough to make them take it seriously. However, they need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty, and while it may seem to be the case, that's based on assumptions and intuition, not fact.

The problem here is that the police did not arrest Mr. Zimmerman, and were it not for the media circus the police would never have arrested Mr. Zimmerman. The police decided on the spot that it was self defense, and were not pursuing a trial, were not gathering evidence, were not planning to let a jury of peers decide whether the actions of Mr. Zimmerman constitute murder, self defense, or something else entirely.

Moreover, the “stand your ground” law in Florida allowed the police to do that. I am in favor of of the “stand your ground” principle—that a person who has a legal right to be in a place, does in fact a legal right to be in that place and is not compelled to flee from criminals—but if you kill a person, there ought to be at least a hearing, and unless there’s something like video evidence proving it was self-defense, there ought to be a trial.

With regard to the police office shooting you reference, I am not familiar with that incident, but police ought to be held to the same standard as everyone else, plus additional internal police punishments for breaches of public trust while on duty. So, if a cop kills someone, that should be prosecuted as murder until proven otherwise. If a cop breaks the speed limit, that should result in the standard legal fine, plus something like temporary suspension of police cruiser driving privileges.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:57 am UTC

I hate how it's often almost impossible to find original news stories on the internet. If you don't read about some major news event within 2 hours of it happening, you're never going figure out what happened, because all the news sites will no longer be talking about what happened, but about everybody's response to what happened.

As far as I can gather, someone shot someone. Is that about right?

edit: Ah, wikipedia helps a bit.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Thesh » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:07 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:The problem here is that the police did not arrest Mr. Zimmerman, and were it not for the media circus the police would never have arrested Mr. Zimmerman.


I'm not even sure the police have enough evidence to arrest him. You don't need this big of a media circus to pressure the police to investigate it, local protests and local media would be enough. This is not something that needs to spend days as the top headline in national news, one story in the US section and the occasional update as there are actual updates.

Stories happen all the time where police kill or assault someone when there is no evidence of aggression by their victim, but they hardly get any attention, and the police are rarely given more than a slap on the wrist. This case isn't even close to those in terms of police neglecting to make arrests.

Qaanol wrote:The police decided on the spot that it was self defense, and were not pursuing a trial, were not gathering evidence, were not planning to let a jury of peers decide whether the actions of Mr. Zimmerman constitute murder, self defense, or something else entirely.


Yes, I agree that it warrants more investigation, but that doesn't require involvement from the president elect or those running for president.

Qaanol wrote:With regard to the police office shooting you reference, I am not familiar with that incident


My point exactly.

Video of the shooting (shooting happens out of frame).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et8J8sUNa3c
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:26 am UTC

lutzj wrote:Clothing (short of maybe "ski mask and bulletproof vest") should certainly not be a factor when making the decision to use deadly force.


Well, if you think about it, a bulletproof vest would have really helped out a lot here.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby sardia » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:33 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
lutzj wrote:Clothing (short of maybe "ski mask and bulletproof vest") should certainly not be a factor when making the decision to use deadly force.


Well, if you think about it, a bulletproof vest would have really helped out a lot here.

In addition, he should dash from cover to cover, while using smoke grenades to mask his approach. Don't forget to keep up suppressive fire in order to advance or retreat.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Gellert1984 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:37 am UTC

I'll always remember the story about the little old lady being asked to leave a wetherspoons because of the pink knitted hoodie she was wearing.

The saying used to be the clothes maketh the man, know it seems the clothes maketh the target.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:51 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Djehutynakht wrote:
lutzj wrote:Clothing (short of maybe "ski mask and bulletproof vest") should certainly not be a factor when making the decision to use deadly force.


Well, if you think about it, a bulletproof vest would have really helped out a lot here.

In addition, he should dash from cover to cover, while using smoke grenades to mask his approach. Don't forget to keep up suppressive fire in order to advance or retreat.


That depends. A bulletproof vest may make you seem a little bit of an oddball (less so if concealed), but smoke grenades make you seem insane.

It's sort of like the difference between having an armored bank truck and a bank truck with a laser beam strapped to the roof.'

In any case, a bulletproof vest very well could have saved his life.. considering he was shot and all, though it'd be impractical to expect people to wear bulletproof vests all the time.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:38 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Video of the shooting (shooting happens out of frame).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et8J8sUNa3c
That is awful. It's literally TEN SECONDS from the first word out of that murderer's mouth to the final bullet out of his gun.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:46 am UTC

Wow, I watched that video, and that is just egregious misconduct. For those who don't want to watch, here's a brief text description with a trigger warning:
Spoiler:
An officer pulls up to an intersection on while a man is calmly walking across. As the man walks off-screen, the officer comes up to him and yells "put the knife down!" three or four times before firing shots.

He didn't identify himself as an officer, he approached a man who was threatening nobody with his gun drawn, he didn't give the man time to follow his instructions. That's just sickening.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:51 am UTC

I wonder if that argument would be seen as valid if somebody shot up a guy wearing a suit on Wall St. because he looked like somebody that was going to fuck up our economy.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:54 am UTC

People wearing suits are job creators and we NEED them for our economy. Stop hurting America. Just do what the rich people want you to so that they can just go about their lives.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:34 am UTC

Thesh wrote: Obama is only going to push moderates to the right by focusing on a race issue, especially after the cambridge thing, which isn't the business of the president either. Sure, he's entitled to his opinion, but he doesn't need to call a press conference just to give it.


Wow, I do so wish the rightwingers would get a clue before mouthing off. Obama didn't call a press conference about the shooting, there was a previously scheduled press conference in which he was asked by a reporter about this horrible event. Obama responded and yes, race was brought up as part of the answer, because only a complete moron would think race wasn't a factor in this murder.

However, his actions resulted in a fight, and given that fact that he had injuries means that it's not an open and shut case. I highly doubt his life was in danger when he pulled the gun, but the police need to take their time and build their case, and the local pressure is probably enough to make them take it seriously. However, they need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty, and while it may seem to be the case, that's based on assumptions and intuition, not fact.


No, you're completely wrong. Police do NOT need to prove guilt, juries do that. In a sane society when an adult stalks and then kills a kid walking down the street, the murderer is arrested and then if they claim they were justified because they killed in self-defense, they are allowed to present their argument DURING THE GODDAMN TRIAL. And no, there has been no credible report that Zimmerman suffered any injury.

Also:

Barack Obama wrote:If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.


Yeah, because all black people look alike.[/sarcasm]


In this case, as the fact that Trayvon Martin was black was clearly the reason Zimmerman decided he was "suspicious", Obama's comment was in fact to the point. I highly doubt Zimmerman cared too much about cheekbone structure or nose length when he decided to go vigilante.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:09 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Wow, I watched that video, and that is just egregious misconduct. For those who don't want to watch, here's a brief text description with a trigger warning:
Spoiler:
An officer pulls up to an intersection on while a man is calmly walking across. As the man walks off-screen, the officer comes up to him and yells "put the knife down!" three or four times before firing shots.

He didn't identify himself as an officer, he approached a man who was threatening nobody with his gun drawn, he didn't give the man time to follow his instructions. That's just sickening.

According to one article I found on the case, the guy was deaf in one ear and hearing-impaired in the other. The officer in question was given a reprimand for the incident, and resigned. No charges were pressed though.

It is shocking.

More shocking is that this is not he first video like that that coming out of the US. I think I've by now seen at least half a dozen videos of US cops murdering citizens in cold blood. And most such events won't be videotaped. That's an almost police-state level of violence.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby EsotericWombat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:12 pm UTC

Geraldo Rivera is the same man who gave away the position of the unit he was embedded with in Iraq. The fact that he still has a career is freaking mind-boggling.

And Thesh, sit down before you fall down. Zimmermann has an established history of calling 911 whenever a black kid was in his gated community. There was someone in this story who made the shooting a racial issue, and his name was George Zimmermann.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Jave D » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:03 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:I'm actually more annoyed by certain people currently campaigning for the 2012 presidential election exploiting it than I am the victim blaming.


Seems to me your priorities are kind of backwards.

However, the outrage and media circus surrounding this is excessive.


Move along here, nothing to see folks.

The officer who shot a native american in the back because he was carving wood while walking down the street didn't get this much attention, and that was much more clean cut (the officer who did it was simply forced to resign as punishment).


Wait, this is excessive because other cases like this were not as excessive?

Is attention on these kinds of cases a good thing or a bad thing, in your book?

Also:

Barack Obama wrote:If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.


Yeah, because all black people look alike.[/sarcasm]


Dur hur hur Obama is racist hur hur.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:56 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Wow, I watched that video, and that is just egregious misconduct. For those who don't want to watch, here's a brief text description with a trigger warning:
Spoiler:
An officer pulls up to an intersection on while a man is calmly walking across. As the man walks off-screen, the officer comes up to him and yells "put the knife down!" three or four times before firing shots.

He didn't identify himself as an officer, he approached a man who was threatening nobody with his gun drawn, he didn't give the man time to follow his instructions. That's just sickening.

According to one article I found on the case, the guy was deaf in one ear and hearing-impaired in the other. The officer in question was given a reprimand for the incident, and resigned. No charges were pressed though.

It is shocking.

More shocking is that this is not he first video like that that coming out of the US. I think I've by now seen at least half a dozen videos of US cops murdering citizens in cold blood. And most such events won't be videotaped. That's an almost police-state level of violence.


You have to keep in mind that police departments are generally local or state wide establishments... and are not necessarily representative of the entire country. Especially in cases like George Zimmerman... who wasn't even a police officer (and thus didn't have any police officer training), I can expect racist behavior from them.

Police Officers need to be trained so that they aren't racist (or at least learn to somewhat suppress racism). They need to understand that some people are hearing impaired and learn to recognize the difference from real dangers and a deaf person. When we have volunteer night watch captains with no ethics or sensitivity training running around with Guns... tragedies like this will happen. Period.

This isn't a matter of "police state", this is a matter of undertrained individuals getting too much power. Furthermore, I'd bet you that not all police departments in the country offer this kind of training: there are just too many police departments... and a systematic problem in one county or state (ex: poor funding, poor elections leading to racist police chiefs etc. etc.) can lead to this sort of problem even with the supposed trained police force. (I am willing to bet that the officer who shot the deaf wood carver didn't receive sensitivity training).

Basically: I think this is a problem in the US... but I blame it on different things. Its a bit lazy to just blame it all on racism. Poor training, underfunding, not enough police officers, overstress... these are problems that plague any system. The problem of under-staffing is especially difficult, because no amount of money can give you quality police officers. If you let too many officers into your system at once, then bad apples will make it through.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby IcedT » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:You have to keep in mind that police departments are generally local or state wide establishments... and are not necessarily representative of the entire country. Especially in cases like George Zimmerman... who wasn't even a police officer (and thus didn't have any police officer training), I can expect racist behavior from them.

This is pretty important. Everybody needs to remember that Zimmerman was not connected to the police in any way. He was a neighborhood watch volunteer. In a gated community. Whose idea of "keeping the community safe" was driving around with a pistol and confronting everyone he thought looked shady. Racist or not, it's pretty clear we're dealing with somebody who has a hero complex, who seeks out conflict, and, well... who shoots unarmed 17-year-olds passing through with an iced tea and a bag of skittles. Everything about this case says he's a reckless and unbalanced person who probably wouldn't make it through a police psych eval.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Tirian » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:49 pm UTC

But let's keep in mind that this is the kind of result that is perpetrated by the police every month of every year. The (not ha-ha) funny thing about the Zimmerman story is that the broader community may be allowed to hold an amateur security officer to a professional standard when a certified police officer can make the "heat of the moment" defense and avoid accountability for the same prejudicial suspicions of unarmed law-abiding men of color.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby addams » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:16 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Diadem wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Wow, I watched that video, and that is just egregious misconduct. For those who don't want to watch, here's a brief text description with a trigger warning:
Spoiler:
An officer pulls up to an intersection on while a man is calmly walking across. As the man walks off-screen, the officer comes up to him and yells "put the knife down!" three or four times before firing shots.

He didn't identify himself as an officer, he approached a man who was threatening nobody with his gun drawn, he didn't give the man time to follow his instructions. That's just sickening.

According to one article I found on the case, the guy was deaf in one ear and hearing-impaired in the other. The officer in question was given a reprimand for the incident, and resigned. No charges were pressed though.

It is shocking.

More shocking is that this is not he first video like that that coming out of the US. I think I've by now seen at least half a dozen videos of US cops murdering citizens in cold blood. And most such events won't be videotaped. That's an almost police-state level of violence.


You have to keep in mind that police departments are generally local or state wide establishments... and are not necessarily representative of the entire country. Especially in cases like George Zimmerman... who wasn't even a police officer (and thus didn't have any police officer training), I can expect racist behavior from them.

Police Officers need to be trained so that they aren't racist (or at least learn to somewhat suppress racism). They need to understand that some people are hearing impaired and learn to recognize the difference from real dangers and a deaf person. When we have volunteer night watch captains with no ethics or sensitivity training running around with Guns... tragedies like this will happen. Period.

This isn't a matter of "police state", this is a matter of undertrained individuals getting too much power. Furthermore, I'd bet you that not all police departments in the country offer this kind of training: there are just too many police departments... and a systematic problem in one county or state (ex: poor funding, poor elections leading to racist police chiefs etc. etc.) can lead to this sort of problem even with the supposed trained police force. (I am willing to bet that the officer who shot the deaf wood carver didn't receive sensitivity training).

Basically: I think this is a problem in the US... but I blame it on different things. Its a bit lazy to just blame it all on racism. Poor training, underfunding, not enough police officers, overstress... these are problems that plague any system. The problem of under-staffing is especially difficult, because no amount of money can give you quality police officers. If you let too many officers into your system at once, then bad apples will make it through.


O.K. I'm in. I take issue with the idea that the shooting off camera was caused in any way by lack of training or man power or funding.
How many officers showed up? At least four additional.
I propose that the shooter was over trained. He gave three commands. Three. That was some well rehearsed behavior.
The training has shifted. I know this to be true. I sat in some continuing ed classes that made me feel sick. This was continuing ed for me. It was initial training for some. It was all they had ever known.
I have also had the displeasure of listening to Police training. Not a lot. Enough. 2010. Yuck.

The old party line that we are not spending enough on Police is so wrong. The training is good, if, the what happened on the clip is the goal. It is this way. It does not have to be this way. I know that the people are frightened of the Police and for good reason.

I know it it not the uniform that matters. It is the human inside the uniform that can and does make a difference. What do the Police think that they are doing? Why?

Police can give the citizens the benefit of the doubt. What fun would that be?

Four shots? Really? Did he miss with the first three? His training was not to fire once and evaluate.
I feel so sad for that man. I feel so sad for the poor people.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Jave D » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:40 pm UTC

The hoodie is just a false flag. I hold the Skittles bag just as responsible for what happened. Why will skittles bags continue to get let off the hook while hoodies are blamed? Take some personal responsibility for what you cause to happen, Skittles! I mean Skittles is produced by a division of Mars Incorporated. As in, Mars, the God of War! Do they really think an informed public is going to stay ignorant of what's going on here? Geraldo is just providing a smokescreen for the Wm. Wrigley Jr. Company. But the truth won't stay buried for long. Too many of us out there know. Skittles makes people shoot people. It's a fact.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:10 pm UTC

Addams, your ignorance on this subject is showing.

Sensitivity training is when a Police Officer learns about handicapped people and about the various cultures in his community. I know that officers in my county are trained on how to deal with deaf people for example. Ultimately, the point of sensitivity training is to make the subject aware of their own prejudice.

Now... we have a video of a deaf man getting shot in the back by a police officer. Do you think this police officer had sensitivity training? Do you think the situation would be improved if the officer in question received more sensitivity training?

The second situation, which is the point of this thread... is a neighborhood watch captain (aka: untrained civilian) shooting a black man who held nothing but skittles in his pocket. Do you think the situation would have been improved if we forced Zimmerman to take classes to understand his own prejudices?

Hint: sensitivity training was the part you were supposed to agree with in my previous post.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:42 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:You have to keep in mind that police departments are generally local or state wide establishments... and are not necessarily representative of the entire country. Especially in cases like George Zimmerman... who wasn't even a police officer (and thus didn't have any police officer training), I can expect racist behavior from them.

Oh but it is not Zimmerman here who is the problem.

I mean, yeah, well, obviously, what he did is wrong. But that's not what the scandal is about. The scandal is that the police responded to it by not arresting him, not even investigating him, and in fact suppressing evidence that might point towards Zimmerman not acting in self-defence. For those things, the police fully is to blame. Also, my previous post was not about Zimmerman, but about the other case, which was linked earlier in the thread. In that case the shooter was an officer, and again nothing was done against him.

And those problems seem to be systemic in the US police force. Maybe not all US police everywhere in every state. But hardly localized to just 1 single county either. Plus even if these kind of problems were localized to a single county or state, then the rest of the nation is still to blame for not doing anything about it.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:01 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:You have to keep in mind that police departments are generally local or state wide establishments... and are not necessarily representative of the entire country. Especially in cases like George Zimmerman... who wasn't even a police officer (and thus didn't have any police officer training), I can expect racist behavior from them.

Oh but it is not Zimmerman here who is the problem.

I mean, yeah, well, obviously, what he did is wrong. But that's not what the scandal is about. The scandal is that the police responded to it by not arresting him, not even investigating him, and in fact suppressing evidence that might point towards Zimmerman not acting in self-defence. For those things, the police fully is to blame. Also, my previous post was not about Zimmerman, but about the other case, which was linked earlier in the thread. In that case the shooter was an officer, and again nothing was done against him.

And those problems seem to be systemic in the US police force. Maybe not all US police everywhere in every state. But hardly localized to just 1 single county either. Plus even if these kind of problems were localized to a single county or state, then the rest of the nation is still to blame for not doing anything about it.


Sure, I think your criticism is valid. I'll have to craft a more precise argument to address your argument. Ultimately... I'm uncomfortable about punishing people who thought they were doing good for their community. Obviously, we can't have vigilantes patrolling the streets, but its clear to me that in their own minds... they thought they were helping things out. Its definitely a tragedy no matter how I look at it, but I like to believe the problem is elsewhere.

As for the level of punishment that needs to be dished out... I dunno really. I'm not really a "punishment" sort of person at heart. As long as the crime most likely won't happen again, I couldn't care less. The officer getting discharged from the force, and in this case where Zimmerman is no longer a neighborhood watch captain... it seems like future violence from these individuals is not going to happen. That is adequate enough for me... although I guess I'm just too soft of a person. Perhaps it helps that I'm not actually related to the victims.
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby Bharrata » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Wow, I watched that video, and that is just egregious misconduct. For those who don't want to watch, here's a brief text description with a trigger warning:
Spoiler:
An officer pulls up to an intersection on while a man is calmly walking across. As the man walks off-screen, the officer comes up to him and yells "put the knife down!" three or four times before firing shots.

He didn't identify himself as an officer, he approached a man who was threatening nobody with his gun drawn, he didn't give the man time to follow his instructions. That's just sickening.

According to one article I found on the case, the guy was deaf in one ear and hearing-impaired in the other. The officer in question was given a reprimand for the incident, and resigned. No charges were pressed though.

It is shocking.

More shocking is that this is not he first video like that that coming out of the US. I think I've by now seen at least half a dozen videos of US cops murdering citizens in cold blood. And most such events won't be videotaped. That's an almost police-state level of violence.



It's a case of the difference between poor neighborhoods and affluent neighborhoods in the US, if you grow up in the suburbs or a nice neighborhood and never live in a bad one you won't be aware of the corruption or intimidation of police officers in those poor neighborhoods, at least not in an existential fashion. I wouldn't go as far to say it's a police state, but there is a level of tension that is definitely not desirable, which is then exacerbated by the Drug War and the organized crime/gangs it spawns and the resulting broken homes.

I think part of the reason why this case has blown up so much is because it took place in a very nice community where no one has to worry about shootings...and presumably the cops did not follow up on it because the victim was black, so he must've been in the wrong place, right? :roll:

The problems of inner-city violence are way trickier to solve and often-times, imo, most folks don't really give a shit if another poor person is shot because we're desensitized.

Another reason why this case is probably blowing up in the black community is because it's a harsh reminder that even if they do all of the right things and become successful and live in a safe neighborhood their children or themselves may not be safe from getting attacked for the color of their skin and the cops not giving a single fuck until attention is brought to bear.


Long Rant about Police IQ Hiring Spoiler
Spoiler:
As a citizen of the U.S. what's more troubling to me is that police departments apparently aren't hiring for intelligence and are getting the nod from some court systems that they're allowed to turn down individuals who are too intelligent.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.T2449TF8Ca_

A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.

“This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class,” Jordan said today from his Waterford home. “I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”

He said he does not plan to take any further legal action.

Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.

Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law.

But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover.

Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.


Let that sink in for a bit. As a person who feels he is of above-average intelligence (never taken an IQ test, could be wrong) and recently learning that Einstein or Freud with 160 IQs would have related/interacted with someone with an IQ of 100 in the same was as the 100 IQ person would interact with someone with an IQ of 40....this is terrifying.



edit:
I'm uncomfortable about punishing people who thought they were doing good for their community. Obviously, we can't have vigilantes patrolling the streets, but its clear to me that in their own minds... they thought they were helping things out.


How many gang members kill each other to protect their hood and family?

Zimmerman seems to be displaying the same mindset.

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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby addams » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:10 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Addams, your ignorance on this subject is showing.

Sensitivity training is when a Police Officer learns about handicapped people and about the various cultures in his community. I know that officers in my county are trained on how to deal with deaf people for example. Ultimately, the point of sensitivity training is to make the subject aware of their own prejudice.

Now... we have a video of a deaf man getting shot in the back by a police officer. Do you think this police officer had sensitivity training? Do you think the situation would be improved if the officer in question received more sensitivity training?

The second situation, which is the point of this thread... is a neighborhood watch captain (aka: untrained civilian) shooting a black man who held nothing but skittles in his pocket. Do you think the situation would have been improved if we forced Zimmerman to take classes to understand his own prejudices?

Hint: sensitivity training was the part you were supposed to agree with in my previous post.

I can not agree with your previous post.
You state that the cause of shooting was a lack of training.
I think these kind of shootings are caused by the wrong kind of training.

Yes. Sensitivity Training is a wonderful idea. That is not the kind of training that the Police are getting.

Right. Back to the topic of the vigilante guy. I have no idea. Another mother lost her son. A man's life ended too soon.

What would help? Required sensitivity classes for gun ownership?
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby lutzj » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:15 pm UTC

Now there is an anonymous witness who claims that Martin attacked Zimmerman:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

No idea how reliable this is, but it's certainly plausible that the shooting was in legitimate self-defense. (Whether deadly force was prudent is of course a whole other issue.)
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Re: Your clothes were asking for it: Now in mens!

Postby yoni45 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:02 am UTC

lutzj wrote:Now there is an anonymous witness who claims that Martin attacked Zimmerman:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

No idea how reliable this is, but it's certainly plausible that the shooting was in legitimate self-defense. (Whether deadly force was prudent is of course a whole other issue.)



Except the guy's on recording telling police, right before this happen, that he's following the kid because he looks suspicious. His story, meanwhile, was that he got out of his car to check the street and the kid attacked him from behind.

And this is a 6'3" seventeen year old kid weighing 140lbs, supposedly beating up this 250lb 28 year old? With his what, his skittles?
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