xkcd

by **Thesh** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:36 am UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/ ... ews&rpc=71

Spoiler:

Technology: 1
North Korea: 0
Foreign Relations: -1
Starving Citizens: Too many to count

by **CorruptUser** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:39 am UTC

I'm sure that the people of NK will still be shown videos of rockets landing on Mars or something.

by **Djehutynakht** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:41 am UTC

'Twas only a weather satellite. I don't think they're going for mars.

I'm half sure this was to please the generals anyways. Kimmy has to prove himself, you know. To us, that's economic reform. To North Koreans, that's rockets.

by **firechicago** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:46 am UTC

No, you don't understand. This is their second successful launch of a satellite into submarigrade orbit, where they will circle the Earth once every 24 hours.

by **CorruptUser** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:49 am UTC

firechicago wrote:No, you don't understand. This is their second successful launch of a satellite into submarigrade orbit, where they will circle the Earth once every 24 hours.

A geosunkronous orbit.

by **lutzj** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:50 am UTC

You're both wrong. This satellite is clearly meant to be orbiting the sun.

by **scienceroboticspunk** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:57 am UTC

Lies, this is merely a cover up so NK can have flying submarines. It will surface from the ocean any day now.

by **Izawwlgood** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:53 am UTC

Sigh. If only we could somehow convince the US that NK was launching nukes from Mars, or trying to...

by **EdgarJPublius** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:51 am UTC

At this point, I think that even if they actually were launching nukes from Mars, no one would believe it.

by **lutzj** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:58 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:At this point, I think that even if they actually were launching nukes from Mars, no one would believe it.

no one would believe it.

no one would see it coming

Spoiler:

More seriously, I wonder what happens within the North Korean science community when something as embarrassing as this happens. Can they afford to purge their scientists too often?

by **CorruptUser** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:51 am UTC

lutzj wrote:More seriously, I wonder what happens within the North Korean science community when something as embarrassing as this happens. Can they afford to purge their scientists too often?

They can't really afford to, though the question of where they even get their scientists from is one I never really found an answer for; as inefficient as the Soviets were, they still had universities and Nazi Scientists, but North Korea doesn't strike me as a country with a thriving university system or invading Germany.

by **EdgarJPublius** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:45 am UTC

I'm sure they have some sort of university system.
There's also a large network of ex-soviet scientists and more than a few western-educated experts who find easy and lucrative work designing doomsday weapons and 'monuments to national scientific prowess' for tin-pot dictators, rogue nations and other bond-villain types.

by **JamesP** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:32 am UTC

See: the Iraqi Rail-gun guy. Shame about him.

by **Dauric** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:37 pm UTC

Actually the NK people heard about what had really happened. Apparently the NK government had invited press from around the world to witness their "triumph", and instead the failure was so publicized that the NK government couldn't cover it up.

NPR

The level of embarrassment felt today by North Korea's leaders was underscored, Louisa reports, by the quickness with which the failure was acknowledged. Within just a few hours after the liftoff and breaking up of the rocket, a grim-faced announcer appeared on North Korea television to say that it had failed to enter orbit.

According to Louisa, that was an "unprecedented moment of honesty." When the previous two such launches also ended in failure, officials just lied about what happened. But having invited the international press in, such a pretense was impossible this time.

by **buddy431** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:39 pm UTC

JamesP wrote:See: the Iraqi Rail-gun guy. Shame about him.

That would be Gerald Bull, for the curious.

by **EdgarJPublius** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:41 pm UTC

The U.S. is cancelling food-aid to North Korea in response to the test, and the G8 are apparently considering stronger sanctions and possible U.N. action. Link

by **Enokh** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:14 pm UTC

That'll teach those starving peasants to let their dictators launch rockets!

by **lutzj** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:20 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:That'll teach those starving peasants to let their dictators launch rockets!

Those peasants don't see much food aid whether we send it or not.

by **Dauric** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:40 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:
Enokh wrote:That'll teach those starving peasants to let their dictators launch rockets!

Those peasants don't see much food aid whether we send it or not.

That and China will do what they can to pick up the slack for what the peasants do get. They can't afford the refugees that would come their way with increased starvation in N.Korea. Last I recall China was turning away those trying to cross legally and having to deport illegal immigrants that were slipping over the border.

by **Jesse** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:51 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:
Enokh wrote:That'll teach those starving peasants to let their dictators launch rockets!

Those peasants don't see much food aid whether we send it or not.

Kim's not that fat.

by **Sockmonkey** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:41 am UTC

This clip explains NK psychology quite well I think. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1
We need to talk china into just letting NK fail.

by **PeterCai** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:37 pm UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:This clip explains NK psychology quite well I think. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1
We need to talk china into just letting NK fail.

That was an amazing talk, thank you.

by **zmic** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:52 pm UTC

judging by this thread North Korea is less liked than any other nation were people starve to death

by **curtis95112** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:58 pm UTC

zmic wrote:judging by this thread North Korea is less liked than any other nation were people starve to death

Understandable. Food aid may get stolen by military factions and corrupt officials in other nations, but at least we're certain that people get what's left. In North Korea, we don't even know if there is a "what's left". That being said, I support food aid for NK even if the military gets most(all?) of it. Mostly because the NK soldiers are conscripts serving for 10+ years. "Military" means something different when it makes up 5% of the population.

by **addams** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:59 pm UTC

buddy431 wrote:
JamesP wrote:See: the Iraqi Rail-gun guy. Shame about him.

That would be Gerald Bull, for the curious.

I am not able to listen to the lecture about Korean Culture.

That Gerald Bull article is so sad. eww. They killed him for being smart?

There is so much that I don't know. Yes. I had heard rumors. It seems that the rumors may have been true. What a bad idea. To kill smart people seems like a bad idea. I am against executions in all of the flavors.

Killing stupid people is bad, too. It seems to hurt more, knowing that he was such a good little thinker.

O.K. Let me see if I 'get' this.
The scientists in a little nation that hangs off the edge of China had a rocket failure. Ouch. That hurts.
The responds of the US is to stop feeding the people? How are those two things connected in any way? A starving people will have babies with lower intelligence. It is, just, a fact. To keep the Koreans on the ground we starve them? That is not nice.

I think that we should have sent a note of condolence. Who has not had a failure?

What is their sin? They want a communication satellite all of their very own? Why not? Everybody else has at least one.

My internet connection is not fast enough for me to watch the launch. I can read print. Boo Hoo. I love watching launches.

by **Thesh** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:24 pm UTC

addams wrote:That Gerald Bull article is so sad. eww. They killed him for being smart?

Another way to put it is that he was killed because he was building a superweapon for a country whose dictator used chemical weapons in the name of ethnic cleansing.

by **addams** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
addams wrote:That Gerald Bull article is so sad. eww. They killed him for being smart?

Another way to put it is that he was killed because he was building a superweapon for a country whose dictator used chemical weapons in the name of ethnic cleansing.

Super Weapon? O.K.

He was, just, interested in a project. Jeeze.

The US built and used Atomic Bombs against citizens. It is tough to top that shit.

I think that I do understand the concept of stopping others before they make the same mistake we made. But; This was a new mistake.

So; The US was feeding Koreans? Is that true. See? I know nothing about the world. What were we feeding them?

by **SlyReaper** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:15 pm UTC

I believe the US is shipping humanitarian aid to NK in exchange for NK discontinuing its nuclear enrichment programmes.

by **buddy431** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:36 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
addams wrote:That Gerald Bull article is so sad. eww. They killed him for being smart?

Another way to put it is that he was killed because he was building a superweapon for a country whose dictator used chemical weapons in the name of ethnic cleansing.

I think it's more that he was killed for working on improving the normal, mundane weapon that actually killed people (Scuds) in exchange for getting funding for his super weapon that probably wasn't a weapon.

by **EdgarJPublius** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:45 pm UTC

addams wrote:What is their sin? They want a communication satellite all of their very own? Why not? Everybody else has at least one.

Actually, North Korea claimed that it would be an imaging satellite for examining North Koreas climate, forests and crops.

That would still be pretty harmless, except that the flight-path of the launch would not have achieved a suitable orbit for such a satellite, and did not match with the orbit North Korea claimed to be aiming for.

This makes the whole thing quite suspicious, and there's a big chance that the launch was actually a disguised test for a ballistic missile.

Link

by **Sockmonkey** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:37 am UTC

Like maybe they were just testing a prototype ballistic missle and blew it up themselves once they were sure they could launch one so they wouldn't have to explain why it didn't actually have a satellite on board?

by **EdgarJPublius** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:26 am UTC

More likely it was either intended to splash down somewhere past the second-stage splash-down zone, or reach some sub-orbital attitude where the inert payload would have burnt up on reentry.

by **KnightExemplar** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:46 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:More likely it was either intended to splash down somewhere past the second-stage splash-down zone, or reach some sub-orbital attitude where the inert payload would have burnt up on reentry.

If they were planning for failure from the start, why invite so much foreign press into their country?

by **EdgarJPublius** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:34 am UTC

They weren't planning on a failure so spectacular or so soon after launch. For North Korea, if the satellite had merely failed the orbital inject, that would have been a relative success, and in any case, such a 'failure' would not have been immediately apparent to spectators near the launch site.

I personally consider it unlikely, but they may have actually intended for the inert payload to reach orbit, but the ramifications of boosting an inert satellite into an orbit different from the one they declared would be somewhat complex, especially if it ended up endangering some other nation's orbital assets.

Edit:
Also, because the rocket failed so soon after launch, it can't be said with complete certainty that they actually intended to follow the announced flight-path. They might have issued a false NOTAM to disguise the fact that they intended to drop the second stage on Manila. that would be super dumb though.

by **johnny_7713** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:Like maybe they were just testing a prototype ballistic missle and blew it up themselves once they were sure they could launch one so they wouldn't have to explain why it didn't actually have a satellite on board?

I believe the satellite was shown to press before the launch (notably in non-clean-room conditions, which was remarked as being odd at the least). There's also no need to blow up the rocket if it was just an ICBM test. Launching a satellite into orbit is a pretty good test for an ICBM. If you can launch a satellite into orbit you can launch a heavier payload (i.e. a warhead) into a ballistic trajectory.

by **EdgarJPublius** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:58 pm UTC

I read somewhere that at least one westerner who had seen the satellite thought it looked more like a 'mockup or model' of a satellite than anything that could actually work. I'll have to see where I saw that and post a link to it.

Edit: found it. Here it is An NBC interview with James Oburg, a NASA engineer who saw the satellite.

Notable quote:

Oburg wrote:I thought at first it was a model. I thought it was a symbolic representation. I couldn’t believe it was flight hardware. I couldn’t believe it was the one being launched in a few days.

by **lutzj** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:33 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:Launching a satellite into orbit is a pretty good test for an ICBM.

This is pretty much the idea, and the space race started like this.

by **Djehutynakht** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:31 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I read somewhere that at least one westerner who had seen the satellite thought it looked more like a 'mockup or model' of a satellite than anything that could actually work. I'll have to see where I saw that and post a link to it.

Edit: found it. Here it is An NBC interview with James Oburg, a NASA engineer who saw the satellite.

Notable quote:
Oburg wrote:I thought at first it was a model. I thought it was a symbolic representation. I couldn’t believe it was flight hardware. I couldn’t believe it was the one being launched in a few days.

Well, you never know. It is North Korea. It might have just been a really bad satellite. Not so much a case of "they're trying to fake it" so much as "I can't believe it's that bad" perhaps?

Dauric wrote:Actually the NK people heard about what had really happened. Apparently the NK government had invited press from around the world to witness their "triumph", and instead the failure was so publicized that the NK government couldn't cover it up.

"The US did it!"

by **johnny_7713** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:37 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:I read somewhere that at least one westerner who had seen the satellite thought it looked more like a 'mockup or model' of a satellite than anything that could actually work. I'll have to see where I saw that and post a link to it.

Edit: found it. Here it is An NBC interview with James Oburg, a NASA engineer who saw the satellite.

Notable quote:
Oburg wrote:I thought at first it was a model. I thought it was a symbolic representation. I couldn’t believe it was flight hardware. I couldn’t believe it was the one being launched in a few days.

Well, you never know. It is North Korea. It might have just been a really bad satellite. Not so much a case of "they're trying to fake it" so much as "I can't believe it's that bad" perhaps?

Dauric wrote:Actually the NK people heard about what had really happened. Apparently the NK government had invited press from around the world to witness their "triumph", and instead the failure was so publicized that the NK government couldn't cover it up.

"The US did it!"

I saw a documentary on NK once which gave the the strong impression that "the US (or the more generic 'Western Imperialists') did it" is the go-to excuse whenever blaming an identifiable individual would lead to one-way tickets to re-education camps. E.g the following quote form the documentary (to the best of my recollection): "This week our factory did not meet the body-warmer production quota. This was due to the power outages caused by sabotage by Western Imperialists."

In other news, "classified imagery sources" lead analysts to believe the cause of the crash was the structural collapse of the third stage due to aerodynamic loading: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyper ... h-fai.html

by **maxQ** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:04 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:
In other news, "classified imagery sources" lead analysts to believe the cause of the crash was the structural collapse of the third stage due to aerodynamic loading: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2012/04/north-koreas-uhna-3-launch-fai.html

I STRIKE AGAIN!

Truth be told, I'm not sure when I struck before. Challenger was correlation, not causation. Surely, some of the early Redstone stuff was destroyed by max Q though so I'm certain it's happened before. Certain, I tell you! I am a force, err distributed force to be reckoned with! Beware my crushing blows!

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