UFlorida drops computer science

[Dark567]

Spoiler:

University of Florida Eliminates Computer Science Department, Increases Athletic Budgets. Hmm.
Wow, no one saw this coming. The University of Florida announced this past week that it was dropping its computer science department, which will allow it to save about $1.7 million. The school is eliminating all funding for teaching assistants in computer science, cutting the graduate and research programs entirely, and moving the tattered remnants into other departments.

Let’s get this straight: in the midst of a technology revolution, with a shortage of engineers and computer scientists, UF decides to cut computer science completely?


Math and computer science are hard. Why bother?

Students at UF have already organized protests, and have created a website dedicated to saving the CS department. Several distinguished computer scientists have written to the president of UF to express their concerns, in very blunt terms. Prof. Zvi Galil, Dean of Computing at Georgia Tech, is “amazed, shocked, and angered.” Prof. S.N. Maheshwari, former Dean of Engineering at IIT Delhi, calls this move “outrageously wrong.” Computer scientist Carl de Boor, a member of the National Academy of Sciences and winner of the 2003 National Medal of Science, asked the UF president “What were you thinking?”

(Note to the students, if you need more quotes for your site: I think this move is shockingly short-sighted. The University of Florida is moving backwards while the rest of the world moves ahead.)

Meanwhile, the athletic budget for the current year is $99 million, an increase of more than $2 million from last year. The increase alone would more than offset the savings supposedly gained by cutting computer science.

Now, I’m not saying that UF has chosen football over science. (Imagine the outcry, though, if UF cut a major sport instead of a major science department.) Actually, the real villains here are the Florida state legislators, who have cut the budget for their flagship university by 30% over the past 6 years.

Meanwhile, just two days ago, Florida governor Rick Scott approved the creation of a brand-new public university, Florida Polytechnic University, to be located near the city of Tampa. In an unintentionally ironic statement, Gov. Scott said

“At a time when the number of graduates of Florida’s universities in the STEM [science, technology, engineering, and mathematics] fields is not projected to meet workforce needs, the establishment of Florida Polytechnic University will help us move the needle in the right direction.”

Heads up, Gov. Scott: no one is going to believe that you’re supporting technical education when your flagship university is eliminating its Computer Science Department. Since cutting support for universities seems to be a major agenda item for you and the legislature, why stop at 30%? With just a bit more cutting, you could get rid of those annoying universities entirely. Let the rest of the country worry about higher education! Florida can focus on orange groves and golf courses. Oh, and football.

Stupid yes? Although I don't share the authors disdain for Gov. Scott over this, he probably had almost nothing to do with cutting the CS department, and in fact is just an example of the fact that a governor doesn't have direct control over his states university. And that the university doesn't have the same goals as him.

[Sheikh al-Majaneen]

Link for the OP:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzb ... dgets-hmm/

[addams]

"Meanwhile, the athletic budget for the current year is $99 million, an increase of more than $2 million from last year. The increase alone would more than offset the savings supposedly gained by cutting computer science."

This is the part that I don't 'get'.

[Garm]

I'm glad we've finally faced up to the fact that no one goes to school in Florida to get an education.

[Sheikh al-Majaneen]

My dad has told me that the athletics departments in large universities turn a profit (Alabama apparently makes a US Grant of benjamins of benjamins of benjamins in profit). This explains the massive investment in it. The kind of people running the show in the state of Florida also explains why this is given a priority over the education of students...

[Dark567]

My dad has told me that the athletics departments in large universities turn a profit (it is his job to know this). This explains the massive investment in it. The kind of people running the show in the state of Florida also explains why this is given a priority over the education of students...

It also explains why they would get rid of a technical field like CS, instead of say philosophy. CS has more costs but the same amount of tuition coming in. Enrollment in courses like philosophy and anthropology are often better for the university monetarily(at least in the short term) than technical courses.

[Chen]

I can't open the PDF describing the budget (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72753329/Budget ... 202012.pdf) but its not a complete dropping of the program. Its a merging of this department with the ECE department and cutting a lot of TA support from the pure CS stuff. Still bad, but not as sensationalist I'd say.

[gorcee]

I can't open the PDF describing the budget (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72753329/Budget ... 202012.pdf) but its not a complete dropping of the program. Its a merging of this department with the ECE department and cutting a lot of TA support from the pure CS stuff. Still bad, but not as sensationalist I'd say.

Which is, historically, the first step to complete dissolution of a program.

With no TA/RA support, there is no research being done. With no comparable program to other universities, undergraduate enrollment drops. With declining enrollment, further justification for untenured faculty wanes. With declining research opportunities, tenured faculty migrate.

It's not a new phenomenon, but it's a puzzling one given that software engineering is one of the few job growth fields out there right now. It's hard to say with a straight face, "we celebrate our student-athletes, and education is the primary role of our institution." And when decisions like this are justified with the bottom line, it becomes harder to justify with a straight face the support of 100 football players with nothing but a scholarship, knowing full well than 98% of them have no prayer of ever setting foot on a professional practice field.

[Dark567]

It's not a new phenomenon, but it's a puzzling one given that software engineering is one of the few job growth fields out there right now. It's hard to say with a straight face, "we celebrate our student-athletes, and education is the primary role of our institution." And when decisions like this are justified with the bottom line, it becomes harder to justify with a straight face the support of 100 football players with nothing but a scholarship, knowing full well than 98% of them have no prayer of ever setting foot on a professional practice field.

The athletics program at Florida is completely separate from academics and probably self funded. And from Florida its probably a little better odds then 98%, but still low.

[Lucrece]

I'm actually surprised this is happening in UF. It's one of the most reputable institutions in Florida. It does not surprise me that athletics gets the attention that it has. The culture among youth in Florida is all about clubbing and sports. You have some cultural centers like South Beach, and Downtown is seeing a boom in cultural enterprises. Ft. Lauderdale is also another cultural center. But outside those circles, it's back to middle class Hispanic kids aping ghetto culture. North Florida is the South of the South.

[Endless Mike]

As a UF alum (not in CISE, but elsewhere in engineering, and several of my friends were in CISE), I'm entirely amazed by this. UF prides itself on being a large research university, and cutting one its programs in that is insane. Granted, you can still get a CS degree there, but it's certainly not the same without any research or a graduate program. That said, enrollment numbers is *not* a problem UF has. Pretty much every year since 2000 when I started (and probably further back), admission standards have increased and they've been rejecting more and more applicants. Basically, they might get fewer potential CS majors and eventually cut the program entirely, but they won't be hurting for students, including many very good ones. Still, it's disappointing.

As for athletics, yeah, it's budgeted largely separately, and largely by donations from boosters. Donations can be marked for a specific department or program, and there's (sadly) a large number who choose to donate to the athletic department. They also receive a good amount of money from TV deals and such. As for supporting the athletes, well, as you've said, most will never make it pro. Giving them an education, even if it's not a STEM program opens a lot of opportunities they may have not otherwise had.

At any rate, this is the sad end result of the state cutting its budget as a whole and its education budget in particular that's put a large strain on the universities to do what they can with what they have.

[Izawwlgood]

"Meanwhile, the athletic budget for the current year is $99 million, an increase of more than $2 million from last year. The increase alone would more than offset the savings supposedly gained by cutting computer science."

This is the part that I don't 'get'.

You know, I was just thinking about this in the education for profit debate.

What is a better fiscal investment for a university in the long term, athletics or having a wide base of successful alumni? My guess is athletics, but I could be wrong.

[Dark567]

That said, enrollment numbers is *not* a problem UF has. Pretty much every year since 2000 when I started (and probably further back), admission standards have increased and they've been rejecting more and more applicants. Basically, they might get fewer potential CS majors and eventually cut the program entirely, but they won't be hurting for students, including many very good ones. Still, it's disappointing.

But this is exactly why you would cut a CS program. If you have plenty of applicants to your school, you would much rather accept the students who costs relatively less to provide services to, while still keeping up total enrollment.

Also these things are often political in nature, even internal to the university. Who is deciding to cut the program? The University president with faculty advisers? What programs do those advisers come from? When I was on student government representing engineering at tuition meetings, it was a little eye opening to see the politics of the faculty play out and the fight over scare dollars. CS might have just been the program not to have enough clout to avoid being cut.

What is a better fiscal investment for a university in the long term, athletics or having a wide base of successful alumni? My guess is athletics, but I could be wrong.

Harvard and the Ivy League would speak other wise.

That said, they are old and have been doing what they have been doing for years. Its not evident a school that doesn't currently have their prestige will be able to earn the fiscal investment back like they did. For a big state school like Florida, who's not completely lacking prestige, but still isn't Ivy League athletics very well could have a higher return on investment. It will certainly get them higher visibility than anything they could do academically.

[Diadem]

The university of Florida is not a small university is it? 50K students according to the wiki, that's quite big.

How can their entire CS department only cost 1.5M? What kind of sub-standard CS department were they running in the first place?

[JudeMorrigan]

I'm actually surprised this is happening in UF. It's one of the most reputable institutions in Florida. It does not surprise me that athletics gets the attention that it has. The culture among youth in Florida is all about clubbing and sports. You have some cultural centers like South Beach, and Downtown is seeing a boom in cultural enterprises. Ft. Lauderdale is also another cultural center. But outside those circles, it's back to middle class Hispanic kids aping ghetto culture. North Florida is the South of the South.

Speaking as a native Floridian, it's a standard joke that Florida is the only state in the Union where the further north you go, the further South you get.

[Dark567]

The university of Florida is not a small university is it? 50K students according to the wiki, that's quite big.

How can their entire CS department only cost 1.5M? What kind of sub-standard CS department were they running in the first place?

Florida is one of the biggest Universities in the US.

They spend ~$550 million on instruction. The school has 87 departments. Meaning the average department spends. about 6 million. So its definitely getting a smaller portion of funds, but not ridiculously less.(Considering that CS students, presumably like most students will need to take Math and English/Comp course, but other students don't necessarily need to take CS)

[Dauric]

What is a better fiscal investment for a university in the long term, athletics or having a wide base of successful alumni? My guess is athletics, but I could be wrong.

Frontline: March Madness

The NCAA Men's College Basketball tournament brings in 90% of the profits for the "non-for-profit" NCAA. The media rights alone amount to ~$700,000,000 a year.

[Lucrece]

And sadly the athletes they make the big bucks out of get jack shit.

[Endless Mike]

Man, I decided to look up enrollment numbers. The CISE department currently has 600 undergrads, 410 masters students, 130 PhD students, and 32 tenure track faculty. (Compare this to my department which had 300 students total.) They're a pretty significant chunk of the university. This is really sad.

[Diadem]

The university of Florida is not a small university is it? 50K students according to the wiki, that's quite big.

How can their entire CS department only cost 1.5M? What kind of sub-standard CS department were they running in the first place?

Florida is one of the biggest Universities in the US.

They spend ~$550 million on instruction. The school has 87 departments. Meaning the average department spends. about 6 million. So its definitely getting a smaller portion of funds, but not ridiculously less.(Considering that CS students, presumably like most students will need to take Math and English/Comp course, but other students don't necessarily need to take CS)

87 departments? Holy batman. And none of those other departments do anything computer-science-related either?

But even then, how is that possible? The university where I'm from is half the size of this one. And physics alone used to spend 30 million (euros, not dollars), and that was one of the smaller (though well-funded) departments. Computer science must have gotten at least as much.

1.7M per year. That is what? 5 man permanent staff, a few postdocs and a scattering of PhDs? And that already sounds generous on such a budget. How many students did CS have? I know it's 1.7M saved, not 1.7M total budget. But they gotta safe the majority of the budget if they cut all graduate and research funding, and most teaching, right? I mean, not much left after that.

[lutzj]

1.7M per year. That is what? 5 man permanent staff, a few postdocs and a scattering of PhDs? And that already sounds generous on such a budget. How many students did CS have? I know it's 1.7M saved, not 1.7M total budget. But they gotta safe the majority of the budget if they cut all graduate and research funding, and most teaching, right? I mean, not much left after that.

IaNaAccountant, but it's possible that the research was mostly funded externally, which would increase the amount of money available to the department but not show up on UFlorida's balance sheet. Laying off staff might eliminate any grants those staff received.

[morriswalters]

I saw this and thought it might add to this conversation. One snippit.

Employers have admitted this in unguarded moments. Craig Barrett, a former chief executive officer of Intel Corp., famously remarked that “the half-life of an engineer, software or hardware, is only a few years,” while Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook has blurted out that young programmers are superior.

[ameretrifle]

I'm glad we've finally faced up to the fact that no one goes to school in Florida to get an education.

...I'm just going to stare at you judgmentally. I mean, I could explain that in-state tuition is a thing, and state scholarships are a thing, and limited financial means are a thing, and things like this are a thing, and students who don't play/care about football are a thing (~EVEN IN FLORIDUH~), but I'd think that's so obvious it can't possibly be the point? Then again, I went to school in Florida, so probably I'm missing something really clever and subtle.

Oh, wait. Being born in a particular state (no matter how lousy (and it is lousy imo)) doesn't mean I'm a moron.

Cheap shot is cheap and unworthy.

I saw this and thought it might add to this conversation.

I can't say I agree with your assessment there, but try sending that to our governor.

A local article on the controversy.

Forbes on Rick Scott's policies. More on the issue of a new state university being added while all the others face budget cuts...

The protest blog.

[TheAmazingRando]

I saw this and thought it might add to this conversation. One snippit.

Employers have admitted this in unguarded moments. Craig Barrett, a former chief executive officer of Intel Corp., famously remarked that “the half-life of an engineer, software or hardware, is only a few years,” while Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook has blurted out that young programmers are superior.

I'm not sure about everything in the article, but I think in any creative industry it's good to have young, passionate people.

On the other hand, most of the programmers I work with are old enough to have adult children, so it isn't a primarily youthful workforce. And I know that when the company my father worked as a software engineer for closed shop and moved across the country when he was 45, he managed to find another job without facing unemployment. But I guess the lesson there is that it's good to have solid professional connections, so you'll always have a foot in the door in case something goes wrong.

[morriswalters]

That wasn't my assessment, I just found it amusing in the context of some discussions that I have had here. As to the article, it strikes me that it was more about the internal academic politics of cost cutting. The easiest explanation is that something had to go and the Comp Sci department didn't have good enough political connections within the University, thus they got their academic throats cut.

[Endless Mike]

87 departments? Holy batman. And none of those other departments do anything computer-science-related either?

But even then, how is that possible? The university where I'm from is half the size of this one. And physics alone used to spend 30 million (euros, not dollars), and that was one of the smaller (though well-funded) departments. Computer science must have gotten at least as much.

1.7M per year. That is what? 5 man permanent staff, a few postdocs and a scattering of PhDs? And that already sounds generous on such a budget. How many students did CS have? I know it's 1.7M saved, not 1.7M total budget. But they gotta safe the majority of the budget if they cut all graduate and research funding, and most teaching, right? I mean, not much left after that.

So for a little history/explanation of the CISE department as it currently stands: it exists as a shared department between the Colleges of Engineering, Liberal Arts and Sciences, and Business (plus possibly Fine Arts as there's a digital art program that's through CISE, as well). This happened in the 90s, I believe, to consolidate a bunch of disparate programs in those Colleges. Most of the software stuff is in this department, though there's apparently some database stuff in the industrial and systems engineering department, and I believe some stuff in the math department. Hardware stuff is all in the electrical and computer engineering department. This plan essentially undoes the earlier consolidation and shuffles professors off to different departments.

As far as the budget goes, I'd guess that a lot of money they use for research and such comes from grants that don't figure into the budget. As far as students, as I posted above, it's about 1100 students, with 32 tenure-track faculty (I don't know if that means they're tenured or just working to it or both).

And yes, I'll join in with suggesting people not make fun of students at Florida schools. The state still offers some great scholarship programs for in-state students (though not as good as when I was there), and UF is really an overall excellent school and and an amazing bargain, all things considered. My education was basically free, and led to some great opportunities afterward Does it highly value its athletic program? Sure, but it's an enormous state school in the south. It's to be expected. Is the state itself retarded? Absolutely. I don't love there anymore and have zero desire to return, but it doesn't reflect on people trying to get a good education at a good value. Many of the other Florida state schools also have some good programs.

[Lucrece]

People just like to make fun of the South because it's standard. They love to ignore the literary, industrial, and scientific contributions and luminaries that have come from the region. Yeah, the state is no Massachusetts. Then again, having lived in both states, I had plenty id equally entitled, airhead brats in MA as I've come across in FL. We just have the disadvantage of retirees and Northern Florida.

If Southern Florida could secede from the state and kick out Hialeah, we'd be pretty well off.

[JudeMorrigan]

If Southern Florida could secede from the state and kick out Hialeah, we'd be pretty well off.

Hmm, would you keep Tallahassee as a protectorate, or would losing FSU be an acceptable cost for losing the state legislature and the governor's office? We have the NHMFL, taxol and had Paul Dirac on our faculty. We're not *just* about Bobby Bowden, honest!

[Endless Mike]

If Southern Florida could secede from the state and kick out Hialeah, we'd be pretty well off.

As a Nothern Virginian, I'm a huge advocate of seceding from the rest of the state. Let's see how well Virginia does without its largest source of money.

[morriswalters]

An article from Cnet with some input here.

[Lucrece]

If Southern Florida could secede from the state and kick out Hialeah, we'd be pretty well off.

Hmm, would you keep Tallahassee as a protectorate, or would losing FSU be an acceptable cost for losing the state legislature and the governor's office? We have the NHMFL, taxol and had Paul Dirac on our faculty. We're not *just* about Bobby Bowden, honest!

Only if you promise to change that name. Those double consonant spellings have been a thorn on my side for so long....

[Triangle_Man]

Yeah, people do make fun of the south a lot...or at least Texas, in my experience.

So, what sort of authors/scientists/other distinguished intellectual types have come from those parts of the states and how awesome are they.

Moreover, how could UFlorida address it's budget issues without cutting computer science, which I understand is a good thing that shouldn't be cut.