Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

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Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby omgryebread » Fri May 11, 2012 4:00 pm UTC

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/argentina-makes-sex-change-1434726.html

Spoiler:
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Adults who want sex-change surgery or hormone therapy in Argentina will be able to get it as part of their public or private health care plans under a gender rights law approved Wednesday.

The measure also gives people the right to specify how their gender is listed at the civil registry when their physical characteristics don't match how they see themselves.

Senators approved the Gender Identity law by a vote of 55-0, with one abstention and more than a dozen senators declaring themselves absent — the same margin that approved a "death with dignity" law earlier in the day.

President Cristina Fernandez threw her support behind the law and is expected to sign it. She has often said how proud she is that Argentina became Latin America's first nation to legalize gay marriage two years ago, enabling thousands of same-sex couples to wed and enjoy the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples.

For many, gender rights were the next step.

Any adult will now be able to officially change his or her gender, image and birth name without having to get approval from doctors or judges — and without having to undergo physical changes beforehand, as many U.S. jurisdictions require.

"It's saying you can change your gender legally without having to change your body at all. That's unheard of," said Katrina Karkazis, a Stanford University medical anthropologist and bioethicst who wrote a book, "Fixing Sex," about the medical and legal treatment of people whose physical characteristics don't fully match their gender identity.

"There's a whole set of medical criteria that people have to meet to change their gender in the U.S., and meanwhile this gives the individual an extraordinary amount of authority for how they want to live. It's really incredible," she said.

When Argentines want to change their bodies, health care companies will have to provide them with surgery or hormone therapy on demand. Such treatments will be included in the "Obligatory Medical Plan," which means both private and public providers will not be able to charge extra for the services.

"This law is going to enable many of us to have light, to come out of the darkness, to appear," said Sen. Osvaldo Lopez of Tierra del Fuego, the only openly gay national lawmaker in Argentina.

"There are many people in our country who also deserve the power to exist," Lopez said.

Children also get a voice under the law: Youths under 18 who want to change their genders gain the right to do so with the approval of their legal guardians. But if parents or guardians want a gender identity change and don't have the child's consent, then a judge must intervene to ensure the child's rights are protected.

Argentina need not worry about vast numbers of people demanding sex changes, Karkazis predicted.

"This isn't going to create a huge demand on the national health system for these procedures. They're difficult, painful, irreversible. And this is why many people don't do it," she said.

But because the law says people can legally change their identities without having to undergo genital surgery or hormone therapy, these changes can be more benign and even reversible, if some day the person's self-image changes.

Other countries, including neighboring Uruguay, have passed gender rights laws, but Argentina's "is in the forefront of the world" because of these benefits it guarantees, said Cesar Cigliutti, president of the Homosexual Community of Argentina.

"This is truly a human right: the right to happiness," Sen. Miguel Pichetto said during the debate.
So basically, individuals get to decide what gender they are. No judge or anyone else needs to sign off on an adult who wants a gender change. And people under 18 can get one with a guardian's approval. It's all also covered under medical plans, public or private, and they treat it as any other medical procedure and aren't allowed to charge extra. There's more! People can now also change their gender identity on documents without any sort of physical change required.


I'm not well-versed on trans rights around the world, but this sounds like it puts Argentina right at the top now. (Certainly ahead of the US.)
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Qaanol » Fri May 11, 2012 8:34 pm UTC

+1
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby jakovasaur » Fri May 11, 2012 8:42 pm UTC

That is pretty cool. When they change how their gender is listed, does that mean they can choose between male and female, or that they can put whatever they want?

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Dr. Diaphanous » Fri May 11, 2012 8:54 pm UTC

I didn't realise Argentina was awesome. (It also has a 'very high' human development index).

Does anyone know how this compares to other countries' laws. How many are the same or better?
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby IcedT » Fri May 11, 2012 9:59 pm UTC

I'm glad to see they took a break from that Malvinas garbage to do something good and productive.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby moiraemachy » Sat May 12, 2012 12:00 am UTC

Damn. Now I have to reevaluate how much I hate Cristina.

The key to understand Argentina's awesomeness on subjects like that is realizing that Argentina is the opposite of an emerging country: they have been in a long, slow downfall for a big part of the 20th century, and despite the political mess, the country still has assets from the past as a very educated population.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Greyarcher » Sat May 12, 2012 6:07 pm UTC

Huh! That's interesting.

I'm drawing a blank on concrete scenarios that are impacted by changing one's legal gender though. The only thing that comes to mind is sex/gender-segregation in sports (which I am only distantly familiar with).
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Sat May 12, 2012 6:18 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:The only thing that comes to mind is sex/gender-segregation in sports (which I am only distantly familiar with).

Self-solving problem, in those sports where it matters. There was a thread about that here a year or so ago. Basically, the vast majority of differences relating to musculature and such are determined by hormones and relatively fluid, so hormone replacement therapy tends to change them.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Greyarcher » Sat May 12, 2012 6:21 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
Greyarcher wrote:The only thing that comes to mind is sex/gender-segregation in sports (which I am only distantly familiar with).

Self-solving problem, in those sports where it matters. There was a thread about that here a year or so ago. Basically, the vast majority of differences relating to musculature and such are determined by hormones and relatively fluid, so hormone replacement therapy tends to change them.
Yeah, I figure it's mostly a non-issue except with rare bozos who want to see what they can get away with (e.g. change legal gender and nothing else; try applying for sports team).
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Shivahn » Sat May 12, 2012 6:28 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:Huh! That's interesting.

I'm drawing a blank on concrete scenarios that are impacted by changing one's legal gender though.


Whether or not you have legal defense against using X bathroom might be one. But there are some other very important ones:

Being sent to the right jail or prison, as opposed to being a woman thrown into a men's prison.

Being able to fly without being flagged for extra (possibly quite invasive) screening, and having to show up hours earlier to make sure you'll get through, or even worrying about being able to get on at all because your ID sex doesn't match what you look like.

Being able to use your ID in any situation without outing yourself, which can be dangerous (or, if not, at least bothersome due to the number of people who will think it's fake).

So yeah, there are some pretty important ones. Most don't show up every day, but when they do show up they show up in a big way.

Edit for I almost forgot: Of course this isn't an issue in Argentina, but in many countries this will impact who you can marry and how certain laws apply to you.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Weeks » Sat May 12, 2012 8:36 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Children also get a voice under the law: Youths under 18 who want to change their genders gain the right to do so with the approval of their legal guardians.
Dunno why I'd need my parents to allow me to identify as whatever I want.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Sizik » Sat May 12, 2012 9:20 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Children also get a voice under the law: Youths under 18 who want to change their genders gain the right to do so with the approval of their legal guardians.
Dunno why I'd need my parents to allow me to identify as whatever I want.


Same reason you would need their permission to, say, change your name to whatever you want.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Arancaytar » Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 am UTC

No judge or anyone else needs to sign off on an adult who wants a gender change. And people under 18 can get one with a guardian's approval. It's all also covered under medical plans, public or private, and they treat it as any other medical procedure and aren't allowed to charge extra.


That's sex, not gender change, I gather from the "medical procedure".
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Elvish Pillager » Sun May 13, 2012 1:55 am UTC

Sizik wrote:
Weeks wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Children also get a voice under the law: Youths under 18 who want to change their genders gain the right to do so with the approval of their legal guardians.
Dunno why I'd need my parents to allow me to identify as whatever I want.


Same reason you would need their permission to, say, change your name to whatever you want.

And what, pray tell, might that reason be?
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Sun May 13, 2012 2:04 am UTC

All invasive non-emergency surgery requires parental approval on children. And SRS is both invasive and non-emergency, so this restriction only confirms to other existing laws.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Elvish Pillager » Sun May 13, 2012 2:21 am UTC

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Weeks, Sizik, or I was talking about SRS.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Sun May 13, 2012 3:14 am UTC

Ehm, because they were talking about medical plans?

But yeah, I was scan-reading and it appears I wasn't doing that very accurately.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Weeks » Sun May 13, 2012 6:25 am UTC

Yeah, I said gender. And in either case, I believe it's quite different from, say, changing your name.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun May 13, 2012 9:39 am UTC

Up in the North, there are things like women-only scholarships, gyms, support groups, etc. If it truly is as simple as a check mark, why would anyone not choose the 'F' box? Does Argentina not have those types of, err, positive discrimination to worry about? This seems like a loop hole to me.

"This isn't going to create a huge demand on the national health system for these procedures. They're difficult, painful, irreversible..."
Is it actually more irreversible than the original procedure? Why?
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Hawknc » Sun May 13, 2012 9:45 am UTC

You understand those women-only organisations exist because of how hard it is for women to exist equally in their mixed-gender counterparts, right? It's like saying "hey guys, this person got robbed and their insurance gave them money to replace the stolen goods. Why would anyone not want to get robbed?".
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Derek » Sun May 13, 2012 10:25 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:You understand those women-only organisations exist because of how hard it is for women to exist equally in their mixed-gender counterparts, right? It's like saying "hey guys, this person got robbed and their insurance gave them money to replace the stolen goods. Why would anyone not want to get robbed?".

Ever heard of insurance fraud? He is suggesting gender fraud. If I look like a man, act like a man, and everyone treats me like a man, but government documents say I'm officially a woman, do I qualify for positive discrimination?
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun May 13, 2012 10:26 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:You understand those women-only organisations exist because of how hard it is for women to exist equally in their mixed-gender counterparts, right?
Yes, I'm aware. And for the most, these organizations are a good thing. It seems to me that changing gender on a whim may make women-only groups powerless. That would be a bad thing.

Hence why I am saying that if it the new law can be used that way, it was written with a bug in it.

Hawknc wrote:It's like saying "hey guys, this person got robbed and their insurance gave them money to replace the stolen goods. Why would anyone not want to get robbed?".
And now I find myself asking this as well.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Link » Sun May 13, 2012 10:42 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Hawknc wrote:You understand those women-only organisations exist because of how hard it is for women to exist equally in their mixed-gender counterparts, right?
Hence why I am saying that if it the new law can be used that way, it was written with a bug in it.
There probably are some safeguards to prevent people from doing that, though. Lawmakers do occasionally make stupid decisions, but I doubt they'd make that big a mistake.

But yeah, if such a loophole exists, it would like being given money from your insurance company by claiming you were robbed, and having that claim be accepted as the truth without any verification.

Taking advantage of such a loophole would be a massively douchetastic thing to do, but the unfortunate truth is that many people don't appear to mind being douchebags if it gets them an advantage over someone else.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby omgryebread » Mon May 14, 2012 1:58 am UTC

Yeah, cause being a trans person is a great way to make things easier.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby jakovasaur » Mon May 14, 2012 2:15 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:Yeah, cause being a trans person is a great way to make things easier.

The conversation is about people who aren't actually transgendered, but pretend to be, isn't it?

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Noc » Mon May 14, 2012 2:53 am UTC

It's probably also worth noting that with any law, we must weigh the cost of its existence against the cost of its absence.

So here we have a load of bureaucracy and gatekeeping thrown at an already stigmatized and beleaguered demographic on one hand, and the potential for individuals to disingenuously change their legal status to fraudulently qualify for scholarships on the other. And to fraudulently attend support groups. I suppose they might try and fraudulently claim discounts on Ladies' Night as well.

In this case, at least, avoiding the demonstrable penalization of innocents seems to trump the risk of minor hypothetical abuse pretty clearly.

(And I should note that this line of argument seems fairly common when this matter is raised, as well; apparently, what amounts to a stock sitcom plot seems a lot more relevant and plausible to people than a real issue facing actual transfolk who genuinely exist.)
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Weeks » Mon May 14, 2012 3:08 am UTC

But then we'll have FAKE WOMEN IN OUR BATHROOMS WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 14, 2012 3:34 am UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Yeah, cause being a trans person is a great way to make things easier.
The conversation is about people who aren't actually transgendered, but pretend to be, isn't it?

omgryebread was pointing out that's a stupid thing to posit. The allegation that such people not only exist but are a substantial concern always comes up in conversations like this and people alleging it never present evidence that it has ever happened and fall back on "well obviously someone has done it, duh".

Your claim is the extraordinary one, thus it is your claim that requires evidence. Got any?

or in other words: Noc has the right of it.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby jakovasaur » Mon May 14, 2012 3:43 am UTC

I'm not making any claim at all. I was just responding to a post that didn't seem to be following the thread.

And no one here has said that this is a bad law, or that people will definitely take advantage of it, or that the possibility that someone does outweighs the good that the law accomplishes. It's just a possible drawback, and a thing to talk about. It's not a big deal.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Greyarcher » Mon May 14, 2012 4:36 am UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Yeah, cause being a trans person is a great way to make things easier.
The conversation is about people who aren't actually transgendered, but pretend to be, isn't it?

omgryebread was pointing out that's a stupid thing to posit. The allegation that such people not only exist but are a substantial concern always comes up in conversations like this and people alleging it never present evidence that it has ever happened and fall back on "well obviously someone has done it, duh".

Your claim is the extraordinary one, thus it is your claim that requires evidence. Got any?

or in other words: Noc has the right of it.
There's nothing unusual about people exploiting something for perceived gain. Or jerking the system around if it's easy enough. In general, people probably have far, far more exposure to dickish people than they do trans folk, so no surprise if concerns are biased towards mitigating possible dickishness and foolery.

Notably, though, no one has yet raised this as a substantial concern. (Though when it comes to proposed laws, I think it's natural, proper, and nearly automatic for people to note even what they perceive as possible minor problems and concerns.)

Edit: Offhand, I don't see why they'd need to pretend to be transgendered. Not if it's only a bit of paperwork. I'm a little curious how the system handles it, really. Well, people will test the limits eventually. They always do. Doubt I'll see the news though.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Noc » Mon May 14, 2012 5:57 am UTC

Greyarcher wrote:There's nothing unusual about people exploiting something for perceived gain. Or jerking the system around if it's easy enough. In general, people probably have far, far more exposure to dickish people than they do trans folk, so no surprise if concerns are biased towards mitigating possible dickishness and foolery.

I think you're being a little naive, here. The objection in this case -- as with most others where it tends to be raised -- seems to be less one of "what if people use this law to be jerks?" and more one of "what if people use this law to get things they don't deserve? You shouldn't be able to count as a woman just by, like, doing some paperwork, right? I mean, I could do that, and then they'd have to let me into the nicer set of bathrooms! And, like, if there was a line ('cause there always is, amirite?) I could just use the Men's! This is so unfair."

Which is why gatekeeping measures exist in lots of other areas: because it offends the public's sensibilities that you should be able to acquire the perceived advantages of the female gender just by saying you're female.* Thus, transfolk should have to work for it, to prove that they really want it and aren't just trying to change their gender because it's somehow convenient. The exact nature and number of hoops you are required to jump through vary from place to place, but many involve extensive vetting by a psychologist, or having actually had SRS, or a period where you've have to "live as" your chosen gender for some arbitrary length of time before they'll let make the change to your ID that'll stop that from being a huge hassle -- if I remember correctly, I recall Monika mentioning that the law in Germany (?) is that the "living as" clause is actually a requirement for starting hormone treatments, which often means that you've got to spend some months wearing gender-inappropriate clothing before you're allowed the treatments that'll help you look decent in them.

Whenever the issue of legal gender change raised, people are very concerned about there being safeguards against people doing it casually, despite the threat of such being entirely hypothetical. Thus, despite the number of well-documented (and often high-profile) examples of people being murdered with guns, I can go out and buy one with relatively little fuss, while changing the "M" on my driver's license to an "F" would require a long, arduous, and often humiliating ordeal. Not to mention expensive, if the process requires a medical treatment my insurance doesn't cover, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

. . .

So, yes! When such laws are discussed, it is worth mentioning the potential for their abuse. But there's a pattern here, and it's a bullshit one of a fictional threat -- and I do mean fictional, because from the touching Mrs. Doubtfire to the classic Wayans Brother's comedy White Chicks to Mulan, the idea of deliberately disguising one's gender is fairly well represented in fiction -- but anyways, let's get down to business. There's a pattern here, of an entirely imaginary, fictional threat being reliably invoked as the justification for widespread, systemic penalization of innocent people. Because the idea of somebody pretending to be a different gender for some gain or mischief seems way more relevant and believable than that of someone having a genuine and reasonable desire to adjust their outward gender identity to match their internal one.

And ignoring that pattern, and pretending that these worries are Entirely Rational and Totally Worth Bringing Up (Again) is . . . well, it's naive.

*Since for some reason, this objection seems to be raised most often about MtF transfolk. I can only assume it's because seeking to be identified as male is considered to be a reasonable desire for self-advancement, while seeking to be identified as female is akin to wanting to play life on "easy mode," and is thus cheating. We can examine the sexism of this later.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Ulc » Mon May 14, 2012 6:32 am UTC

Noc wrote:
Greyarcher wrote:There's nothing unusual about people exploiting something for perceived gain. Or jerking the system around if it's easy enough. In general, people probably have far, far more exposure to dickish people than they do trans folk, so no surprise if concerns are biased towards mitigating possible dickishness and foolery.

I think you're being a little naive, here. The objection in this case -- as with most others where it tends to be raised -- seems to be less one of "what if people use this law to be jerks?" and more one of "what if people use this law to get things they don't deserve? You shouldn't be able to count as a woman just by, like, doing some paperwork, right? I mean, I could do that, and then they'd have to let me into the nicer set of bathrooms! And, like, if there was a line ('cause there always is, amirite?) I could just use the Men's! This is so unfair."
/quote]

No, that's not the objection. The objection is that you shouldn't be able to get [gender specific advantage] if you don't consider yourself [gender], looks like [gender], doesn't act like [gender], and doesn't face any of the difficulties of [gender]. With the first one being the most important by far.

Which is, on the face of it, not a unreasonable thing to consider - it's really not nice when laws created to help group [X] gets exploited by group [Y]. You see the same outrage when it comes to tax laws - when exceptions are made to make it easier for people with lots of money to donate to charities, it pisses people right off when the laws gets used not to donate, but to avoid paying taxes without donating.

Now, I don't think there is actually any way to avoid it being possible to exploit, without making it too difficult for transpeople - so we'll probably just have to deal with it in a different way (remove the inequalities that makes it potentially desirable), and there probably aren't going to be that many abusers, since it's a loophole that requires you to legally change your gender - but worrying about it is not unreasonable as long as one makes sure that taking care of the vulnerable groups are higher priority than dealing with the ones abusing loopholes. Which is pretty much what I'm seeing in this thread.

And it's fairly absurd to call it "entirely fictional" - anyone not living in a pretty fantasy land knows this simple fact: If it's possible to abuse something, somewhere, someone will be enough of an douchebag to do it. Say that's it's not nearly as important as helping transpeople, and we're on the same page. But don't call the idea of someone abusing those laws "entirely fictional".
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon May 14, 2012 7:14 am UTC

Ulc wrote:And it's fairly absurd to call it "entirely fictional" - anyone not living in a pretty fantasy land knows this simple fact: If it's possible to abuse something, somewhere, someone will be enough of an douchebag to do it. Say that's it's not nearly as important as helping transpeople, and we're on the same page. But don't call the idea of someone abusing those laws "entirely fictional".


If these concerns aren't fictional as you claim, then you should have no problem finding even one example of an individual exploiting trans* inclusive policy to defraud the government, peep on (or assault) women in the bathroom, or any of the other things typically brought up in discussions like this.

I'll wait.

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jakovasaur
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby jakovasaur » Mon May 14, 2012 8:32 am UTC

Does any other nation make it this simple to change your legal gender? If not, I don't think you can say that just because no one has ever tried something in a country that is more hostile to transgenders, then it follows that no one would try it in a country that is not as hostile. We are talking about a loophole, a hypothetical thing that might occur given a certain set of circumstances. That it hasn't happened under different circumstances does not mean it won't happen now, under these circumstances. And really, what is the problem with talking about potential drawbacks to what everyone here (I think) agrees is a good law?

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Ulc » Mon May 14, 2012 10:32 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:If these concerns aren't fictional as you claim, then you should have no problem finding even one example of an individual exploiting trans* inclusive policy to defraud the government, peep on (or assault) women in the bathroom, or any of the other things typically brought up in discussions like this.

I'll wait.


Considering that this is pretty much the first decently trans* inclusive law that have been made in the world, that removes significant barriers in the law for transpeople, I'm not sure it's even possible anywhere but Argentina to exploit trans inclusive laws.

But are you honestly saying "non-trans people wont exploit trans-inclusive laws even if it's made possible"? Because I honestly find that claim absurd - people will exploit anything. But that's not an argument against making transinclusive laws, but closing ones eyes and saying and refusing to ask the question "how do we, without inconveniencing those we try to help, stop others from exploiting those laws" is.. well, I can't really see how anyone can possible

As it happens, I can't figure out how to do that, because making people jump through hoops are a shitty solution - but it's a question that needs to be asked, same as it does for tax breaks, gun laws, equality laws, vehicle laws, copyright laws and every damn fucking law we make!.
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby HungryHobo » Mon May 14, 2012 11:53 am UTC

Noc wrote:*Since for some reason, this objection seems to be raised most often about MtF transfolk. I can only assume it's because seeking to be identified as male is considered to be a reasonable desire for self-advancement, while seeking to be identified as female is akin to wanting to play life on "easy mode," and is thus cheating. We can examine the sexism of this later.


or, just possibly, in large part because men are viewed as more "pervy" by society.

A simpler approach might be to just allow one but only one easy change if people are concerned that people might change their legal designation whenever it's convenient.

Easy for trans people, a possibly awkward permanent change for someone who wants to change for 2 weeks to take advantage of a program which provides favorable loan rates, cheap insurance or to artificially "meet" a quota for females in management positions or government.
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moiraemachy
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby moiraemachy » Mon May 14, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

Wouldn't women-only organizations be able to avoid these potential issues simply by also discriminating on the basis of "you are making everyone uncomfortable"? I don't think the Argentinian government practices any kind of affirmative action, and I'm guessing that in any context in which a party can discriminate on a gender basis, they can also discriminate on any other basis, making this situation a non-issue.

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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon May 14, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

moiraemachy wrote:Wouldn't women-only organizations be able to avoid these potential issues simply by also discriminating on the basis of "you are making everyone uncomfortable"?

No. Because that's levelled at trans women all the time.

Also I assume this law doesn't mean you can just go and fill out and submit a form. I assume that changing gender markers will be just like changing a name - requires going before a judge (though that's generally just a formality, but it acts as a filter against "I'm changing my name to get away from obligation x" or "I'm changing my name to cover my ass by hiding my association with y") and a lot of time and expense which are just unavoidable. People seem to be laboring under the delusion that anything about this will ever be convenient.
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mike-l
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby mike-l » Mon May 14, 2012 8:03 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:I assume that changing gender markers will be just like changing a name - requires going before a judge and a lot of time and expense which are just unavoidable. People seem to be laboring under the delusion that anything about this will ever be convenient.


At least half of that is incorrect.

The Article wrote:Any adult will now be able to officially change his or her gender, image and birth name without having to get approval from doctors or judges — and without having to undergo physical changes beforehand, as many U.S. jurisdictions require.


I do wonder about how to properly balance tough situations like allowing trans women to work/attend women-only groups, and I think there's no easy solution and everything needs to be done on a case by case basis. Eg, things like a trans girl joining the girl guides seems like a no brainer, but working at a battered women's shelter I'd really have a hard time deciding on.

In any case, this law is amazing, hopefully other countries can follow suit.
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Роберт
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Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Mon May 14, 2012 9:43 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Eg, things like a trans girl joining the girl guides seems like a no brainer, but working at a battered women's shelter I'd really have a hard time deciding on.
I'm confused. What is the issue here?
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