Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Thu May 17, 2012 2:30 am UTC

The problem is that in many cases we want to differentiate between people based on sex, not gender. A typical example is sports. The reason we separate men and women in sports is not gender, but sex.

A women's shelter is a another typical example of this. Because many abused women can have very serious flashbacks when confronted with men. And unfortunately our traumas don't care about how someone's mind is wired, nor about what some government paper says, but only about what someone looks like. Actually I guess we want to differentiate here on which sex someone looks like, not which sex someone is, further complicating the question.

Perhaps IDs should list both gender and sex? Though that would complicate things even further. I guess there isn't really a good solution to these issues.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

Nordic Einar
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:21 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Nordic Einar » Thu May 17, 2012 3:44 am UTC

Does anyone here actually do any direct service work with battered women's shelters or rape crisis response? Or are we, again, talking out of our asses and jerking off to imaginary and contrived hypotheticals?

HungryHobo
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:01 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 17, 2012 8:12 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote: Or are we, again, talking out of our asses and jerking off to imaginary and contrived hypotheticals?


Are we again getting upset because there are a few rare situations where people you don't agree with have a decent point in some edge cases.
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

User avatar
Red Hal
Magically Delicious
Posts: 1445
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:42 pm UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Red Hal » Thu May 17, 2012 8:46 am UTC

Yep. Make legal gender change (because we aren't talking about actual gender change which has already happened, just updating the records to match) as easy as possible. The natural bureaucracies of the various issuing authorities will take care of casual abuse of the system, and the serious system gamers can be handled by a "stop taking the piss" clause.

More simply, though, as gender-changing becomes more integrated into the society and becomes seen for the social construct that it is, then gender differences start to matter less and equality irrespective of gender improves. As that happens, the advantages applicable to a particular gender decrease, and the opportunities for fraud disappear. Once that point is reached you can then institute the simplest of all changes; remove gender entirely from official documents, since it will be of no importance.
Lost Greatest Silent Baby X Y Z. "There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain..."

User avatar
Ulc
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:05 pm UTC
Location: Copenhagen university

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Ulc » Thu May 17, 2012 9:06 am UTC

Virtual_Aardvark wrote:I just also think the "abuse" is really freaking unrealistic...


In my experience, there is no legal loophole people wont exploit. No fraud so vile that no-one will do it. No situation so delicate that they wont stampede in wearing combat boots and piss all over everything.

If it's possible, some douchebag will exploit it. Of course, I'm sitting here hoping that the law passed will actually make it easy for trans* people to change their legal gender to match their actual gender, and the bureaucratic obstacles will be minimal and largely cost-free - if the reality is that it's a major hassle to jump through the bureaucratic hoops, then exploiting the system, then exploiting it is almost definitely more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it - Aristotle

A White Russian, shades and a bathrobe, what more can you want from life?

User avatar
Elvish Pillager
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Elvish Pillager » Thu May 17, 2012 11:03 am UTC

Diadem wrote:The problem is that in many cases we want to differentiate between people based on sex, not gender. A typical example is sports. The reason we separate men and women in sports is not gender, but sex.

A women's shelter is a another typical example of this. Because many abused women can have very serious flashbacks when confronted with men. And unfortunately our traumas don't care about how someone's mind is wired, nor about what some government paper says, but only about what someone looks like.

One person's idea of "looks like a man" is different than another's. And even for individual people, "looks like" usually includes dress, behavior, mannerisms, hairstyle, and a variety of other things, and it's very likely that a trans woman wouldn't take the stereotypically-masculine options on all of those. And there are lots of other ways to trigger flashbacks besides "looking like a man".

We've gone over this before: this is a problem that (1) is not specific to transgender people, and (2) can be mitigated by having employees stay away from clients for whom their presence is triggering, rather than by using the blunt instrument of "don't hire $minority people".
Also known as Eli Dupree. Check out elidupree.com for my comics, games, and other work.

GENERATION A(g64, g64): Social experiment. Take the busy beaver function of the generation number and add it to your signature.

Sheikh al-Majaneen
Name Checks Out On Time, Tips Chambermaid
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:17 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Thu May 17, 2012 12:55 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Virtual_Aardvark wrote:I just also think the "abuse" is really freaking unrealistic...


In my experience, there is no legal loophole people wont exploit. No fraud so vile that no-one will do it. No situation so delicate that they wont stampede in wearing combat boots and piss all over everything.

If it's possible, some douchebag will exploit it. Of course, I'm sitting here hoping that the law passed will actually make it easy for trans* people to change their legal gender to match their actual gender, and the bureaucratic obstacles will be minimal and largely cost-free - if the reality is that it's a major hassle to jump through the bureaucratic hoops, then exploiting the system, then exploiting it is almost definitely more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.

Why does it really matter? I can't imagine more than fifty or a hundred people out of Argentina's 40 million doing what you expect, at the most. What is the big deal?

EDIT: I understand there has been some discussion of this in the thread--but as I understand it, shelters have discretion in who they hire/allow to volunteer, right?

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 3:47 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:The problem is that in many cases we want to differentiate between people based on sex, not gender. A typical example is sports. The reason we separate men and women in sports is not gender, but sex.

A women's shelter is a another typical example of this. Because many abused women can have very serious flashbacks when confronted with men. And unfortunately our traumas don't care about how someone's mind is wired, nor about what some government paper says, but only about what someone looks like. Actually I guess we want to differentiate here on which sex someone looks like, not which sex someone is, further complicating the question.

Perhaps IDs should list both gender and sex? Though that would complicate things even further. I guess there isn't really a good solution to these issues.

Yeah, that sports example?

See the sections titled "Marriage Protection Meets Biology" and "Proto-Kudzu: The Olympics". Kudzu and the California Marriage Amendment
TL;DR: physical sex isn't actually a binary. The first person in the Olympics caught under sex testing was Ewa Kłobukowska. She was banned from professional sports. She later gave birth to a son. Her crime was playing as a woman with a mosaic of XX chromosomes and XXY chromosomes. I guess that made her a man? Similar problems throughout made the International Olympic Committee give up and they stopped requiring "gender verification" of all female athletes.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1822
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby eran_rathan » Thu May 17, 2012 4:29 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:See the sections titled "Marriage Protection Meets Biology" and "Proto-Kudzu: The Olympics". Kudzu and the California Marriage Amendment
TL;DR: physical sex isn't actually a binary. The first person in the Olympics caught under sex testing was Ewa Kłobukowska. She was banned from professional sports. She later gave birth to a son. Her crime was playing as a woman with a mosaic of XX chromosomes and XXY chromosomes. I guess that made her a man? Similar problems throughout made the International Olympic Committee give up and they stopped requiring "gender verification" of all female athletes.


Yeah, Роберт has it quite correct - genetics aren't exactly the best indicators of gender, regardless of plumbing. In fact there have been a number of studies done where the brain structures & neurochemistry of heteronormative and MtF transgendered were compared, and the MtF transgendered brains' exhibited characteristics of female brains, not men.

Additionally, the ratio of people like myself with Klinefelters (XXY male here) is fairly high, between 1:500 and 1:1000 (though many never develop symptoms - I haven't, the only reason I know of it is because my wife & I were tested for some other genetic diseases before having children).
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Jessica » Thu May 17, 2012 4:30 pm UTC

If someone is "gaming" the system: Remember that just because it's easy to change your gender, doesn't mean that doing illegal things stops being illegal.

Scholarships for women aren't handed to all women, and if there's a problem the board can deal with it.
Sports teams are segregated based on perceived sex differences. Changing gender identity markers doesn't change that either, but the sex differences change with hormones.
Fraud is fraud.

Making it difficult for real people do live their lives just because some people might commit fraud is really really stupid. Especially when that difficulty is in many instances the difference between life or death/harm to the individual.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 4:36 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Additionally, the ratio of people like myself with Klinefelters (XXY male here) is fairly high, between 1:500 and 1:1000 (though many never develop symptoms - I haven't, the only reason I know of it is because my wife & I were tested for some other genetic diseases before having children).

Exactly! Even leaving out the less common occurrences like genetic mosaics, you get some women with womb who are genetically XY, for example. They are unlikely to realize anything is odd, at least not until they start trying to have kids. They can still successfully carry a pregnancy to term, even if infertile. This isn't exactly a trans issue but I guess it's related. When you try to make laws around gender and sex like it's a binary, it can be problematic.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
netcrusher88
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:35 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu May 17, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

Syntax nitpick: "heteronormative" doesn't make sense in that context. You want "cisgender". I get what you mean but that word doesn't mean that.

Роберт wrote:Exactly! Even leaving out the less common occurrences like genetic mosaics, you get some women with womb who are genetically XY, for example. They are unlikely to realize anything is odd, at least not until they start trying to have kids. They can still successfully carry a pregnancy to term, even if infertile. This isn't exactly a trans issue but I guess it's related. When you try to make laws around gender and sex like it's a binary, it can be problematic.
Saw an interesting article the other day about a study on a family full of gender-variant and intersex people (like a dozen over an extended family) - centerpiece/point of the article was a mother and daughter who were both fertile and both XY. Things are way more complex than most people acknowledge. Can't for the life of me find said article.

When it comes down to it, Jessica's right:
Jessica wrote:Fraud is fraud.
Sexothermic
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. -Voltaire
They said we would never have a black president until Swine Flu. -Gears

mike-l
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:16 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby mike-l » Thu May 17, 2012 5:59 pm UTC

I started talking a bit about the sports issue with Роберт via PM.

Let me start by being clear that I think this gender law is amazing and nothing I say should suggest putting any barriers at all for people being recognized as their own gender. Let me say secondly that I fully acknowledge very real issues facing transgendered people all over the world that desperately need fixing. Let me finally say, I'm still forming my opinion on the issue and am open to changing my mind.

I'm a strong believer in the value of having women's sports (as opposed to just saying all sports are coed, go compete together). I believe (as ironic as it may sound) that it helps to remove gender stereotyping, I believe it provides opportunities to girls and women who would not feel they had those opportunities if they were forced to compete with men, and I also really enjoy the competition of the whole thing.

Cases like the one Роберт mentioned are not really a concern to me (by which I mean, I have no problem with someone who has no idea they aren't XX competing with in the women's competition), nor do I take much issue at any but the highest levels of competition. On the other hand, the case of Renee Richards seems wrong to me. She became the 20th best female tennis player in the world, after being roughly 200th ranked male in the world. I don't mean to suggest for a second that this was in any way a motivating factor in her decision to change her gender. I just think at this level of competition, the reason for separating men and women is that men have a "genetic advantage" in certain aspects that are relevant to sports, and, while I sympathise that Renee just wanted to compete as her actual gender, she essentially sidestepped this restriction. At 6 foot 2, she's quite tall for a woman, but only slightly above average for a man.

Having said all that, good for her for fighting for it, and even though I don't entirely agree with the outcome, good on the courts for siding with her way back in 1977.
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1822
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby eran_rathan » Thu May 17, 2012 6:28 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Syntax nitpick: "heteronormative" doesn't make sense in that context. You want "cisgender". I get what you mean but that word doesn't mean that.


I was looking for that word, but could not remember it. mea culpa.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 6:57 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:On the other hand, the case of Renee Richards seems wrong to me. She became the 20th best female tennis player in the world, after being roughly 200th ranked male in the world. I don't mean to suggest for a second that this was in any way a motivating factor in her decision to change her gender. I just think at this level of competition, the reason for separating men and women is that men have a "genetic advantage" in certain aspects that are relevant to sports, and, while I sympathise that Renee just wanted to compete as her actual gender, she essentially sidestepped this restriction. At 6 foot 2, she's quite tall for a woman, but only slightly above average for a man.

Now, I can see how that can look weird, but...

Do we disallow cis women who are 6 foot 2 from playing? No. Do they have a genetic advantage over a lot of other women? Yes, probably. Anyone in the top tier of sports has some sort of "genetic advantage" over the average population.

She loved tennis and wanted to play in official competitions. What is a good answer to that? It seems like just because trans women might perform better in sports than cis women is not a compelling enough reason to essentially disallow them from playing professional sports. And enforcing it could be tricky - how do you decide what the appropriate cutoff is? Intersex people are over-represented in high levels of female sports. When do you decide that they aren't intersex enough to count?

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me if trans women were overrepresented in women's sports - in the Renee example, she was likely the only trans woman in the top 25 so it's not like all the cis women will get sidelined.

Does that make sense? You're not going to have high school girl's sports all across the nation suddenly dominated by trans girls. It's not a big issue.

Edit: Would it be "fair" for trans men taking hormone therapy to compete in as women? I think we all would expect them to compete as men.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

Greyarcher
Posts: 708
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:03 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Greyarcher » Thu May 17, 2012 7:54 pm UTC

I can't say I'd expect trans men to compete as men. I can see how this each of these different cases could be seen as unfair, in a sense.

It's the sort of question where I'd checkmark the box next to "Abstain". Or somesuch.
In serious discussion, I usually strive to post with clarity, thoroughness, and precision so that others will not misunderstand; I strive for dispassion and an open mind, the better to avoid error.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Thu May 17, 2012 8:12 pm UTC

In every sport that I know, women have always been allowed to compete in the men's competition. It's just the other way around that is not allowed. In some sports, there aren't even separate competitions but instead there's a prize for the highest ranked woman. I suppose it's likely that there are some some sports where the men's competition is exclusively for men, but if so those rules can (and should!) be changed.

Should there be a separate competition for women at all? I'd say yes. Not only because there is a demand for it, but also in the interest of fairness. There are clear genetic differences in size and muscles between men and women, and in most sports no or almost no women would ever compete at a professional level without women's leagues.

Neither gender nor sex are a binary. This is also true. But if you decide there should be a women's competition, then you have the draw the line somewhere. This will always be arbitrary, and unfair to some people. But that is the nature of the world, and I don't see how that can be helped. The world is full of such arbitrary but necessary lines. Voting age, driving age, length requirements for service, GPA requirements for getting into colleges, etc.

I don't know exactly where to draw the line. I'll gladly leave that to the experts. But it's clear that there needs to be a line. And it seems also clear that that line should be based on sex, and not gender. Because it's the genetic differences we care about, not the mental ones. So at the very least pre-op transwomen should be barred from competing in women's competitions.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 8:23 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I don't know exactly where to draw the line. I'll gladly leave that to the experts. But it's clear that there needs to be a line. And it seems also clear that that line should be based on sex, and not gender. Because it's the genetic differences we care about, not the mental ones. So at the very least pre-op transwomen should be barred from competing in women's competitions.

The most obvious line to draw, to me, is whether or not you are legally female. That would solve the issue, wouldn't it?

Edit: which sports competitions are we talking about? State school? Private school? International, like Olympics?
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Thu May 17, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Diadem wrote:I don't know exactly where to draw the line. I'll gladly leave that to the experts. But it's clear that there needs to be a line. And it seems also clear that that line should be based on sex, and not gender. Because it's the genetic differences we care about, not the mental ones. So at the very least pre-op transwomen should be barred from competing in women's competitions.

The most obvious line to draw, to me, is whether or not you are legally female. That would solve the issue, wouldn't it?

I don't think I have a legal sex. Just a gender. How do you use a legal distinction that doesn't exist?

(Interesting, I checked my passport before writing this. The Dutch term used is 'geslacht' which means 'gender'. But the translation giving is 'sex'. My own government does not know the difference between gender and sex. This saddens me).
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
netcrusher88
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:35 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu May 17, 2012 8:35 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So at the very least pre-op transwomen should be barred from competing in women's competitions.

Either you don't understand what pre-op means or you have no idea what you're talking about. Hormones determine dimorphic athletic characteristics, not genitals. Any surgical procedure is a ludicrous place to draw the line.

Роберт wrote:The most obvious line to draw, to me, is whether or not you are legally female. That would solve the issue, wouldn't it?

Not when it's catastrophically difficult to change one's legal documents in many places. But then there's also, which documents are you using? Birth certificate is harder to change than passport is harder to change than driver's license (in some states, in others the passport's marker is easier to change).
Sexothermic
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. -Voltaire
They said we would never have a black president until Swine Flu. -Gears

sigsfried
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:28 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby sigsfried » Thu May 17, 2012 8:51 pm UTC

The most obvious line to draw, to me, is whether or not you are legally female. That would solve the issue, wouldn't it?



Provided we can come up with a way of preventing people claiming to be female when they aren't. A man in the top 25 for men's tennis is unlikely to ever with a grand slam. But if he claimed to be female he would probably when easily. Not only that but female grand slams are less demanding than so he would be more likely to also enter one of the additional tournaments. In many sports this would not be worth it. Playing football (soccer) for a third rate club (say any in the second league) as a man would pay far more than being the best female football player. In tennis the prizes are equal (not sure I entirely agree with this, but certainly they should be closer to being equal than they are in most sports).

The claim that well it would be fraud. Under the Argentine law I don't think it would be. Also we should be very careful about calling it fraud. Is a trans man committing fraud if he doesn't inform his car insurance the moment he realises that he is really male? (Assuming we are dealing with countries in which car insurance is more expensive than men, this excludes the EU due to a Human Rights court case that at best was unreasonable and at worst was abhorrent. As a man I should have to pay more for insurance because men are much greater risk)
If that isn't fraud then why would changing your gender despite not truly being that gender be fraud. Additionally this would be a court case that would be almost impossible to fight.

User avatar
Griffin
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:46 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Griffin » Thu May 17, 2012 9:13 pm UTC

Provided we can come up with a way of preventing people claiming to be female when they aren't.

Except if we define legally female as someone who is legally female... that's incredibly trivial. Just check to see what they have on their license, and BOOM, you can tell the ones who are female from the ones who are not. Duh.


As to the pre-eminence of physical entertainment (aka sports) being (apparently) so very much more important than people actual being able to live a normal life, I would argue the much better way to deal with that is to ignore it because its fucking bullshit anyways.

You want to break people up into an "genetically/hormonally awesome league" and a "genetically/hormonally crap league" (like weight classes in wrestling) , do so on the basis of something significantly more fair than gender and you won't have this sort of issue. Gendered sports are a bullshit anachronism who don't give a shit about your "legal" gender status anyway. Get some actual measurable standards instead of basing it on tradition that (imo) does significant disservice to both sexes and our culture as a whole, and then you don't have to worry about it.

Diadem wrote:The problem is that in many cases we want to differentiate between people based on sex, not gender. A typical example is sports. The reason we separate men and women in sports is not gender, but sex.

...wait. What? The "reason" we separate men and women in sports is... sex?

How does that even make any sense? Can someone explain that to me? I thought we did it for a combination of cultural norms, audience economics, and a desire for diversity in sports top echelons? "sex" is more the method than the reason, no?
Bdthemag: "I don't always GM, but when I do I prefer to put my player's in situations that include pain and torture. Stay creative my friends."

Bayobeasts - the Pokemon: Orthoclase project.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Thu May 17, 2012 9:23 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
Diadem wrote:So at the very least pre-op transwomen should be barred from competing in women's competitions.

Either you don't understand what pre-op means or you have no idea what you're talking about. Hormones determine dimorphic athletic characteristics, not genitals. Any surgical procedure is a ludicrous place to draw the line.

Ok, my language was somewhat imprecise. Make it 'pre-treatment'. Though people receiving hormones are generally banned from professional sports due to anti-doping regulations anyway.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

sigsfried
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:28 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby sigsfried » Thu May 17, 2012 9:30 pm UTC

Actually I don't care for most sports (I like Cricket enough to listen to it on the radio and football enough to see it as a good way to bond with my dad who, for his sins, is a keen Leeds United fan). I do think this is rule good thing and this is the sole problem I have now. The reason I have the problem is most children who play sports keenly do so wanting to become pros, at least this is the impression I get from helping out with local youth associations but maybe it is a coincidence.

Again this probably wouldn't matter that much but it is already hard enough to get girls interested in sport and thereby get them to be healthier.

The other option is to drop gender segregation in sport, but I think that would be a disaster.
Except if we define legally female as someone who is legally female... that's incredibly trivial. Just check to see what they have on their license, and BOOM, you can tell the ones who are female from the ones who are not. Duh.


So to go back to the case where after I applied for Scholarships only to be rejected because of gender (they were not female only but they provided funds to all eligible women first, something I think is absolutely right) I could have ticked the relevant box on the form and suddenly been able to get the money. You would have no problem with that, because while I admit that I would have been tempted it is something that is definitely vile and as others have pointed out the number of people that would do such a thing is probably tiny but not non-existent.

There are a number of gender segregated things that it is desirable to make it harder to change than merely ticking a box. There should be a way of handling these things that makes it as simple as possible for those who are genuinely trans to change gender, something which is already difficult enough.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Diadem » Thu May 17, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:As to the pre-eminence of physical entertainment (aka sports) being (apparently) so very much more important than people actual being able to live a normal life, I would argue the much better way to deal with that is to ignore it because its fucking bullshit anyways.

If we took that "Let's ignore problems I don't personally suffer from" route than we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, since the overwhelming majority of the population is cisgendered, and by this logic should not care about transgender rights.

Besides, either sports is important or it isn't. If it isn't important, than it doesn't matter if transwomen can compete or not. If is it, we should strife for a fair solution for everybody involved.

Griffin wrote:
Diadem wrote:The problem is that in many cases we want to differentiate between people based on sex, not gender. A typical example is sports. The reason we separate men and women in sports is not gender, but sex.

...wait. What? The "reason" we separate men and women in sports is... sex?

How does that even make any sense? Can someone explain that to me? I thought we did it for a combination of cultural norms, audience economics, and a desire for diversity in sports top echelons? "sex" is more the method than the reason, no?

Even after reading this several times I still have no idea what you are trying to say here.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Griffin
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:46 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Griffin » Thu May 17, 2012 9:47 pm UTC

sigsfried wrote:The reason I have the problem is most children who play sports keenly do so wanting to become pros, at least this is the impression I get from helping out with local youth associations but maybe it is a coincidence.

The worse the would come from gender segregation (at this most basic of levels) is that more of the ones who succeed would be male. The number who end up disappointed would be the same either way, would it not, ignoring the considerations I mentioned (especially the audience economics)?

Again this probably wouldn't matter that much but it is already hard enough to get girls interested in sport and thereby get them to be healthier.

If people are seriously only playing sports to "go pro", that is pretty damn sad. Sure, anyone who is good at a sport wants to go pro, but almost no one manages to go pro without loving the sport for what it is /first/. I guess its fair to argue that segregated sports is a good advertising tool and social manipulation tool as well.

So to go back to the case where after I applied for Scholarships only to be rejected because of gender (they were not female only but they provided funds to all eligible women first, something I think is absolutely right) I could have ticked the relevant box on the form and suddenly been able to get the money. You would have no problem with that, because while I admit that I would have been tempted it is something that is definitely vile and as others have pointed out the number of people that would do such a thing is probably tiny but not non-existent.

No, I wouldn't. That is the natural consequence of giving out scholarships based on choice - and if sexual expression is something we want people to able to choose (to avoid someone being trapped in what they feel is a wrong body), I'm not sure what I see that's supposed to be so vile here. If the scholarship is for something other than your gender expression, it should probably be clear on it. And if someone lies, that's fraud. But this isn't lying - it is, quite literally, legally becoming the other gender. I'm pretty much generally opposed to gender-based scholarships as a fairly primitive tool of cultural manipulation anyways. Tell me, if this is so vile - who loses out? And why are they more valuable than all the other people that would lose out if not for this?

There are a number of gender segregated things that it is desirable to make it harder to change than merely ticking a box. There should be a way of handling these things that makes it as simple as possible for those who are genuinely trans to change gender, something which is already difficult enough.

I couldn't disagree more.
Bdthemag: "I don't always GM, but when I do I prefer to put my player's in situations that include pain and torture. Stay creative my friends."

Bayobeasts - the Pokemon: Orthoclase project.

User avatar
Griffin
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:46 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Griffin » Thu May 17, 2012 9:49 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Even after reading this several times I still have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Consider the feeling mutual then. I have literally no clue what you mean when you say we segregate sports because of sex.
Bdthemag: "I don't always GM, but when I do I prefer to put my player's in situations that include pain and torture. Stay creative my friends."

Bayobeasts - the Pokemon: Orthoclase project.

mike-l
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:16 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby mike-l » Thu May 17, 2012 9:54 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Do we disallow cis women who are 6 foot 2 from playing? No. Do they have a genetic advantage over a lot of other women? Yes, probably. Anyone in the top tier of sports has some sort of "genetic advantage" over the average population.
For sure. Like I said, I'm still making my mind up on this. But nonetheless, we do have a separate competition based on the genetic differences between sexes (at least for the 99.8% of people who are XY/XX and display the 'normal' characteristics). And while it's a prejudiced separation, it's one that I think is incredibly valuable and would do more harm than good by not having. (That last part is only an argument for having women's sports, not for not allowing trans women to compete in them)
She loved tennis and wanted to play in official competitions. What is a good answer to that?
Keep playing in the men's leagues she had already been playing in for years?

Edit: Would it be "fair" for trans men taking hormone therapy to compete in as women? I think we all would expect them to compete as men.

Well, if he were taking any disallowed hormones, then it wouldn't be fair for him to compete at all. If he weren't, then I would have no problem with him competing in the women's competition.



I'm actually starting to lean towards being ok with it anyway, in that allowing it is a super good thing, with minimal downside. (Now, if the Canadian women's hockey team loses to a team of trans women next olympics, I might be a tad pissed, but only because I love Canadian women's hockey so much :))
Last edited by mike-l on Thu May 17, 2012 9:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

User avatar
Griffin
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:46 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Griffin » Thu May 17, 2012 9:57 pm UTC

Would you approve having sports weighed on some actual thing with a discrete cutoff instead, like weight classes?

Perhaps a measurement of a given hormone will let you play in one group or another.

I'd imagine you'd end up with mostly women on one side and mostly men on another, with a seamless non-discriminatory placement for transgenders and a legitimate case to argue for fraud if they dope up only for the season-beginning hormone check-in.
Bdthemag: "I don't always GM, but when I do I prefer to put my player's in situations that include pain and torture. Stay creative my friends."

Bayobeasts - the Pokemon: Orthoclase project.

sigsfried
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:28 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby sigsfried » Thu May 17, 2012 10:07 pm UTC

Tell me, if this is so vile - who loses out? And why are they more valuable than all the other people that would lose out if not for this?


Well obviously someone else would have missed out. All I know from the letter I got was that there was enough money to fund 7 people. There were eight eligible women. So whichever of the seven that got funded was the lowest would have missed out. You can't pretend that nobody would have missed out. Instead they would have had to write her a letter saying that one of the people had just become a woman so she had taken precedence. Then a week later when I changed back to being male the other person would still have been left struggling.

If people are seriously only playing sports to "go pro", that is pretty damn sad. Sure, anyone who is good at a sport wants to go pro, but almost no one manages to go pro without loving the sport for what it is /first/. I guess its fair to argue that segregated sports is a good advertising tool and social manipulation tool as well.


Wanting to become pro was the wrong expression. Dreaming of it is another matter. As a kid I dreamed of playing football for England, winning Wimbledon and scoring a century at Lord's. I doubt anyone keen on sports as a child can honestly say they didn't dream of something similar (though maybe dreaming of playing for a decent team not England).

Would you approve having sports weighed on some actual thing with a discrete cutoff instead, like weight classes?

Perhaps a measurement of a given hormone will let you play in one group or another.

I'd imagine you'd end up with mostly women on one side and mostly men on another, with a seamless non-discriminatory placement for transgenders and a legitimate case to argue for fraud if they dope up only for the season-beginning hormone check-in.


Expensive though for competitions that involve both amateur, semipro and pro teams. Plus by making one so explicitly the less capable option you would undermine the reasonable efforts to make women's sports be seen equally with male sports. Something that much work is needed but progress is being made on.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Thu May 17, 2012 10:20 pm UTC

So I looked up an example of how it's actually handled.
http://www.wellingtonoutgames.com/participation_policy
5.7 There is no competitive advantage if:

trans women wish to compete against men or
trans men wish to compete against men.


5.8 Competitive advantage will apply in some instances when:

a trans woman wishes to compete against other women or
in the less likely situation, where a trans man wishes to still compete as a female, against women.

5.9 In assessing whether or not a trans person has competitive advantage in these situations, the sole consideration is the person's sex hormone levels. The 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames organisers recognise that taking hormones may not be possible, appropriate or preferred by all trans people.

5.10 In line with the IOC Stockholm Consensus:

a trans woman does not have competitive advantage against other women if she has been taking female hormones regularly for the two years immediately prior to the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames, at levels prescribed to enable her to transition.

5.11 In line with emerging research, if a trans man wishes to still compete against women he must NOT have been taking male hormones for more than one year prior to the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames at levels prescribed to enable him to transition.

5.12 Testosterone, the sex hormone prescribed to trans men, is a banned substance under the Policy on Doping of GLISA and the World Anti-Doping Code. There are strict policies for applying for a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) for any banned substance. Trans men on testosterone are advised to obtain a letter from their prescribing physician setting out the frequency and level of their dose.

So, trans men are allowed to compete in either competition until they start taking testestorone, in which case they have to compete as men. Trans women are not allowed to compete as women until they've had the appropriate hormonal treatment for long enough.

This sounds sane to me.
Last edited by Роберт on Thu May 17, 2012 10:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
netcrusher88
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:35 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby netcrusher88 » Thu May 17, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:If we took that "Let's ignore problems I don't personally suffer from" route than we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, since the overwhelming majority of the population is cisgendered, and by this logic should not care about transgender rights.

If there's one thing this thread proves it's that really, it's not the majority's concerns that need more representation. So much as bring up a topic that might undermine them in some way and pages will be devoted to arguing over how to preserve them, because if there's one thing we need to talk about when discussing transgender rights it's how much they could screw up sports. Now that it's not only been stated that it's a solved problem but shown how it's solved I expect the argument will continue.

But by all means, carry on. It's critically important that your entertainment be weighed against others' ability to be legally recognized according to their identity.

Maybe next we can talk about how we need to weigh same-sex marriage against the religious liberties of business owners to deny benefits to same-sex partners. Doesn't that sound redundant over like beating a dead horse asinine ignorant fun?

(yes, I recognize this is a straw man and that's not what you're saying and people who play sports have legitimate concerns but "hey if the majority didn't care about minority rights there wouldn't be any so they'd better make sure they don't mess up how we do things now" is the vibe I get and it's bullshit)
Sexothermic
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. -Voltaire
They said we would never have a black president until Swine Flu. -Gears

sigsfried
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:28 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby sigsfried » Thu May 17, 2012 10:49 pm UTC


So, trans men are allowed to compete in either competition until they start taking testestorone, in which case they have to compete as men. Trans women are not allowed to compete as women until they've had the appropriate hormonal treatment for long enough.

This sounds sane to me.


I agree completely. But that does mean that if you have a law like Argentina's then some people who are legally women would not be allowed to take part in women's sport. If we are all agreed that is acceptable then I don't think there are any further problems.

It does however all sports to treat people as men even if they are women, which then might mean other institutions put severe pressure on governments to also be allowed to discriminate.

mike-l
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:16 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby mike-l » Fri May 18, 2012 12:07 am UTC

I think that's a reasonable resolution (lol my iPhone autocorrected resolution to 'compromise solution'. I like it)

Now we just need to let trans people on planes in Canada and everything is fixed! Or at least less messed up
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: Argentina passes awesome gender identity law

Postby Роберт » Fri May 18, 2012 3:30 am UTC

sigsfried wrote:

So, trans men are allowed to compete in either competition until they start taking testestorone, in which case they have to compete as men. Trans women are not allowed to compete as women until they've had the appropriate hormonal treatment for long enough.

This sounds sane to me.


I agree completely. But that does mean that if you have a law like Argentina's then some people who are legally women would not be allowed to take part in women's sport. If we are all agreed that is acceptable then I don't think there are any further problems.

It does however all sports to treat people as men even if they are women, which then might mean other institutions put severe pressure on governments to also be allowed to discriminate.

It's certainly risky but I think it's mostly fair. I'd be okay with my proposal of just going by whether or not you're legally female but I can see requiring a year or two of hormone therapy first. It does hinder trans women to an extent, unfortunately. For non-professional, less competitive stuff there's a good chance nobody would want to have to deal with that crap and would probably just go with legal status.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests