Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

koberulz wrote:KE cites Occupy, in the bit I quoted, then gives a number of reasons Occupy isn't a valid answer, in the bit you quoted. Clearly he thought Occupy was a valid answer--why else would he give it?--so he can't possibly have actually meant anything else in that paragraph.

Yes, I am the one who presumes things sans evidence. Gotcha. Good reading comprehension.

Carry on thread, sorry for the sidebar.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:54 pm UTC

koberulz wrote:Your problem is believing that people mean what they say all the time.

Hey! My mother was a SAINT!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
koberulz wrote:KE cites Occupy, in the bit I quoted, then gives a number of reasons Occupy isn't a valid answer, in the bit you quoted. Clearly he thought Occupy was a valid answer--why else would he give it?--so he can't possibly have actually meant anything else in that paragraph.

Yes, I am the one who presumes things sans evidence. Gotcha. Good reading comprehension.

Carry on thread, sorry for the sidebar.

Are you trying to suggest that 'Occupy never achieved anything' isn't a reason it's an invalid answer to the question 'name a group that achieved something'? Or have you assumed--sans evidence--that I was referring to KE's intent?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

Ahem. This thread is supposed to be about "Police Misbehavior", not koberulz being an ass.

May I present: ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes
Just put his name there and stop getting derailed with pointless nitpicking.

Meanwhile, a campus police officer gets shot in the head during a training exercise:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... 4886.story
Spoiler:
Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said Wednesday there was "no acceptable explanation" for the shooting that critically wounded a University of Maryland campus police officer during a city police training exercise.

Rawlings-Blake, who met with members of the officer's family at Maryland Shock Trauma Center, said she had confidence that police would "get to the bottom of it." The officer was shot in the head Tuesday with a live round while training at a closed state psychiatric hospital in Owings Mills, officials said.

"I was so angry I was almost speechless to think that something like this could happen," Rawlings-Blake said Wednesday, speaking after the Board of Estimates meeting. "I made a commitment to the trainee's family that we would get to the bottom of it."

Related

Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake

Police officer shot in training exercise at former hospital site

Baltimore Crime Beat blog
Man shot in Lochearn, taken to Shock Trauma
Man with high fever rescued from tanker ship near Annapolis
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After the incident, Police Commissioner Anthony W. Batts immediately moved to suspend all police academy operations and training programs pending a safety review.

In an e-mail to staff, Batts said six members of the training academy chain of command had been suspended pending further investigation. He also said that counseling is being provided to everyone involved.

"Our Professional Standards & Accountability Bureau is conducting an over-arching assessment of the incident. They have two goals: determine why this happened, and how we can prevent this type of tragic incident from ever happening again," Batts wrote in the e-mail. "We must do everything we can to learn from this horrible event and be as transparent and forthcoming as possible — we owe those involved in this tragedy nothing less."

He said the Maryland Police and Correctional Training Commission would also conduct a review.

State police are leading the criminal probe, because the shooting occurred at the former Rosewood Center, a state facility that has been used by other agencies for police training.

Few details of what happened have been made available, and it was unclear how live rounds found their way into a training environment.

The officer, who has not been identified, is in his 40s and was hired by the University of Maryland, Baltimore campus in July 2012. Officers from smaller agencies commonly take part in training with larger police forces to conserve resources.

Anthony Guglielmi, the Baltimore Police department's chief spokesman, said Wednesday morning that the officer remains in critical condition but was responsive.

Retired Lt. Col. Michael Andrew, who oversaw the city's SWAT teams, said live ammunition is rarely used in any training scenario. Most guns used in training are distinguished by red handles and have no magazines or firing pins. In classroom settings, he said, "They won't even let you in the building with a loaded weapon."

Andrew said his SWAT teams trained weekly in a former city maintenance shop.

"They weren't using live ammunition," he said. "They would painstakingly make sure everything was unloaded and simulate live ammunition."

Police would not offer any details about Tuesday's training exercise, saying that information was part of their investigation. In recent years, police have described using "active shooter" training exercises in which officers use so-called "simunition" bullets similar to paintballs.

Simunitions are fired from a standard handgun and explode on impact. They allow officers to practice in realistic situations, often in abandoned buildings.

The former Rosewood Center dates to 1888 and once housed as many as 3,000 patients with developmental disabilities. Its population dwindled to 166 residents by 2010, when Gov. Martin O'Malley ordered its closure. Most of the remaining residents were relocated to group homes.

Let's hope they actually do decide to
learn from this horrible event and be as transparent and forthcoming as possible
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:02 pm UTC

to be fair, in this instance koberulz is 100% right, regardless of his presentation of the matter. PM asked for an example of someone accomplishing something with regards to police shenanigans. KE then cited Occupy in response to this, and then went on to say that Occupy hadn't accomplished anything, which means that KE's response (of Occupy) was completely and utterly irrelevant to PM's actual question, and calls into question why he thought it was a valid response. He clearly brought it up as though he was answering PM's post, except then invalidated his own response by pointing out how Occupy accomplished nothing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:07 pm UTC

natraj wrote:to be fair, in this instance koberulz is 100% right, regardless of his presentation of the matter. PM asked for an example of someone accomplishing something with regards to police shenanigans. KE then cited Occupy in response to this, and then went on to say that Occupy hadn't accomplished anything, which means that KE's response (of Occupy) was completely and utterly irrelevant to PM's actual question, and calls into question why he thought it was a valid response. He clearly brought it up as though he was answering PM's post, except then invalidated his own response by pointing out how Occupy accomplished nothing.

No. Not only is koberulz an ass, he's also wrong.
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Nobody rallied behind those shooters. Yes, people glorified and hyped up their actions by focusing their attention on this or that dipshit asshole who figured killing dozens of innocent people was the best way to be remembered.

People are rallying behind Dorner as opposed to behind any of those "plenty of groups who are fighting police corruption" because what have those groups even accomplished lately? Name one, and name something it's done to fix the problem of police corruption, favoritism, and tribe mentality.

The question was about who people rallied behind. Name one group that people rallied behind, and name what it's accomplished.

The response:
They rallied behind Occupy.
It didn't accomplish anything due to <x> <y> and <z>
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:12 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:No. Not only is koberulz an ass

Oh, stalking, excellent.

he's also wrong.

Which naturally explains this:
Princess Marzipan wrote:So in order to prove a claim that there are groups gaining victories in the fight against police corruption, militarism, and tribalism, you offer as support a nebulous coalition that was the victim of those very things and accomplished, as you freely admit, absolutely nothing in that fight.

*blink*

Thank you for making my point.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:13 pm UTC

Yes, but given the context of the greater conversation, the clear implication was there are no actually viable (i.e., groups that have accomplished something) groups out there TO rally behind, and it was seeking something people could rally behind that actually is doing something. So saying "well they could rally behind Occupy. Occupy hasn't done anything" was actually proving PM's point.

I.e. that people have no groups achieving anything against police corruption to rally behind.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:15 pm UTC

Not to mention that Occupy seems a poor example of an anti-police-violence/abuse/whathaveyou group, given that they didn't actually have an official position on anything other than 'yes, we would like free money'.

I'm still not entirely sure how it's fair that someone is arguing against me whilst having me on their foe list and giving me no opportunity to respond.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:17 pm UTC

natraj wrote:Yes, but given the context of the greater conversation, the clear implication was there are no actually viable (i.e., groups that have accomplished something) groups out there TO rally behind, and it was seeking something people could rally behind that actually is doing something. So saying "well they could rally behind Occupy. Occupy hasn't done anything" was actually proving PM's point.

I.e. that people have no groups achieving anything against police corruption to rally behind.

I think we all agree that it would be great to have an effective group against police corruption to rally behind. Can we stop nitpicking at posts?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:21 pm UTC

natraj wrote:Yes, but given the context of the greater conversation, the clear implication was there are no actually viable (i.e., groups that have accomplished something) groups out there TO rally behind, and it was seeking something people could rally behind that actually is doing something. So saying "well they could rally behind Occupy. Occupy hasn't done anything" was actually proving PM's point.

Which is why KE's point wasn't that he felt Occupy had actually accomplished anything, and perhaps, why he stated that was his opinion.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:23 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
natraj wrote:Yes, but given the context of the greater conversation, the clear implication was there are no actually viable (i.e., groups that have accomplished something) groups out there TO rally behind, and it was seeking something people could rally behind that actually is doing something. So saying "well they could rally behind Occupy. Occupy hasn't done anything" was actually proving PM's point.

Which is why KE's point wasn't that he felt Occupy had actually accomplished anything, and perhaps, why he stated that was his opinion.

If that were his point, why would he have brought it up as an answer to a request to name a group that achieved something? "There are no groups that have achieved anything." "Occupy never achieved anything." Yes, I can certainly see the point of that exchange.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
natraj wrote:Yes, but given the context of the greater conversation, the clear implication was there are no actually viable (i.e., groups that have accomplished something) groups out there TO rally behind, and it was seeking something people could rally behind that actually is doing something. So saying "well they could rally behind Occupy. Occupy hasn't done anything" was actually proving PM's point.

Which is why KE's point wasn't that he felt Occupy had actually accomplished anything, and perhaps, why he stated that was his opinion.

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Interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/11/opini ... =recg&_r=0
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Last fall, the criminal defense clinic at Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law represented a young black man charged with possession of a knife (recovered from his pants pocket) after he was searched by a police officer who swore — under penalty of perjury — that the client was blocking the entrance to a building in violation of a disorderly conduct statute. A video obtained from an adjacent store revealed a very different reality — just a young kid talking with friends, never blocking anyone’s way.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:27 pm UTC

You need to reread the original exchange. KE is giving an example of an organization people rallied behind, and then stating that his opinion of it is that it did not accomplish anything. You argued with his imaginary claim of 'Occupy accomplished something', and it was funny, because you did so using criticisms of Occupy that KE himself used in the very paragraph you quote sniped from.

PM: "Hey man, can you think of any tasty fruits?"
KE: "Well, apples are fruits, but I don't think they're tasty because they're too tart and can get mealy."
Koberulz: "Excuse me KE, are you suggesting apples are tasty? That's ridiculous, they're too tart and can get mealy."

@Роберт: Yeah, agreed, back to the actual discussion of police misbehavior.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:29 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:You need to reread the original exchange. KE is giving an example of an organization people rallied behind, and then stating that his opinion of it is that it did not accomplish anything. You argued with his imaginary claim of 'Occupy accomplished something', and it was funny, because you did so using criticisms of Occupy that KE himself used in the very paragraph you quote sniped from.

PM: "Hey man, can you think of any tasty fruits?"
KE: "Well, apples are fruits, but I don't think they're tasty because they're too tart and can get mealy."
Koberulz: "Excuse me KE, are you suggesting apples are tasty? That's ridiculous, they're too tart and can get mealy."

This makes perfect sense, assuming you completely ignore the context of the conversation in which the exchange occurred.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Роберт wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Nobody rallied behind those shooters. Yes, people glorified and hyped up their actions by focusing their attention on this or that dipshit asshole who figured killing dozens of innocent people was the best way to be remembered.

People are rallying behind Dorner as opposed to behind any of those "plenty of groups who are fighting police corruption" because what have those groups even accomplished lately? Name one, and name something it's done to fix the problem of police corruption, favoritism, and tribe mentality.

The question was about who people rallied behind. Name one group that people rallied behind, and name what it's accomplished.
No, the question was about what there IS to rally behind.

Occupy, due to its lack of tangible accomplishments and its disorganized plethora of goals, is not something to rally behind in the fight against police tribalism and militarism. Which Knight Exemplar admits right after bringing it up, so I'm not sure why he brought it up, given its 0% relevance to what I was asking for. Except that it provided him an opportunity to insult my memory, which is itself irrelevant, because why is my memory of an irrelevant conversation relevant to this conversation?


Why do we have a page of discussion on just this one point?

Edit: Apparently because people keep posting about it. Glad to see others have in fact called for a return to relevance. I've spoilered my own post to the meta-discussion above.
Last edited by Princess Marzipan on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:57 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:56 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:From what I heard on NPR this morning, they used tear gas which caught on fire. Which actually does sound like a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

So... CNN seems to confirm this story, although it suggests "smoke devices" and then mentions both flash bangs and tear gas. But, since CNN is awful, I checked around and found this:
BBC wrote:Reports say the police fired tear gas into the building and used a loudspeaker to urge the gunman to surrender.

Officials used a demolition vehicle to tear down the walls of the cabin.

Shortly afterwards, a single gunshot was heard inside the building and a fire began to spread through the cabin.
So... there was a bulldozer involved? Now I'm curious what the timeline was, and if the fire was Dorner's fault or if the Sherriffs caused it and Dorner killed himself fearing gas or capture or something.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:07 pm UTC

Tear gas is flammable?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Tear gas is flammable?


Exact same shit that happened in Waco. They used incendiary tear gas grenades that are not for use inside structures as they are prone to setting things on fire, being incendiary and all. There are non-incendiary versions for use inside structures.

They were heard on the police scanner saying something to the effect of "deploy the burners." I'll look for the exact bit but the term "burners" is used for the incendiary gas grenades precisely because they burn things.

edit:

Reddit Timeline for the whole thing with audio links/transcripts/etc.

"7 burners have deployed and we have a fire." and "You guys are my eyes back there. If you see anything catching fire that shouldn't, let me know. Otherwise let it go." was the quote I was looking for.

Seriously though, what the fuck is a trial.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:19 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:Seriously though, what the fuck is a trial.


Were you really expecting them to have a trial? I knew, as soon as I heard about the cabin, that he was never going to see a courtroom.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

You'd think with as many eyes on them as there were/are they'd at least have the sense to be less obvious about their intent to murder him before trial.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

Why? They're cops. What are you going to do, call the cops on them?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:35 pm UTC

Well I do suppose that for budgetary purposes they would need a reason to give them a couple of weeks off with pay, other than: "They did a good job."
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:
TrlstanC wrote:But, I'm still curious, did no one else ever learn about creationism in science class at some point, at least those who went to public school?

Sorry, we just learned science.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:36 pm UTC

Didn't you notice, we don't have to have trials anymore. The government is totally OK with killing Americans.
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

To be fair, a lengthy trial costs practically as much as the prison sentence itself, and prisons are expensive. California (or just about anywhere else in the US) can't afford a trial. You can save lots of money via summary executions. Hold on, I see an adorable puppy. Please wait while I go kick it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:55 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:To be fair, a lengthy trial costs practically as much as the prison sentence itself, and prisons are expensive. California (or just about anywhere else in the US) can't afford a trial. You can save lots of money via summary executions. Hold on, I see an adorable puppy. Please wait while I go kick it.


So to be fair, we should be unfair and not do trials? Yeah. ok.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:58 pm UTC

...back. That puppy needed to be kicked a second time, so it learns not to get puppy blood all over my kitten leather shoes.

I guess I should be more obvious in my sarcasm/devil's advocate.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:06 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Didn't you notice, we don't have to have trials anymore. The government is totally OK with killing Americans.

You know, that's the one issue on which even the most pacifist, liberal Americans spontaneously seem to turn into blood thirsty barbarians. There always seem to be huge debates raging in the US over whether it's okay to assassinate American citizens, and if so, under which circumstances. But I've never, ever, ever seen any American suggest that, you know, perhaps killing non-Americans isn't totes cool either.

I'm not using hyperbole here. Every single American writer, tv-host, commentator, blogger, etc, who I've ever encountered seems to think it's completely self-evident that killing non-Americans without any form of trial or due process is totally ok. I've never heard anybody (that is: any American) speak out against this.

As a non-American, this attitude scares me more than anything. To know that even the most liberal people in what is still the most powerful country on earth think my life is worth less than theirs just because I wasn't born in the USA is depressing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DaBigCheez » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:16 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:Didn't you notice, we don't have to have trials anymore. The government is totally OK with killing Americans.

You know, that's the one issue on which even the most pacifist, liberal Americans spontaneously seem to turn into blood thirsty barbarians. There always seem to be huge debates raging in the US over whether it's okay to assassinate American citizens, and if so, under which circumstances. But I've never, ever, ever seen any American suggest that, you know, perhaps killing non-Americans isn't totes cool either.

I'm not using hyperbole here. Every single American writer, tv-host, commentator, blogger, etc, who I've ever encountered seems to think it's completely self-evident that killing non-Americans without any form of trial or due process is totally ok. I've never heard anybody (that is: any American) speak out against this.

As a non-American, this attitude scares me more than anything. To know that even the most liberal people in what is still the most powerful country on earth think my life is worth less than theirs just because I wasn't born in the USA is depressing.

I believe the intended distinction there is that "killing enemy combatants with whom you are actively at war without trial" is acceptable (the definition of "enemy combatants" and "at war" being major sources of contention, however). The reason for the "American citizens" bit is alternately because of "American citizens are guaranteed the right to due process in the constitution" (which...foreign citizens aren't? technically true, I guess, maybe, but not exactly optimal - the point is that this interpretation would imply whether they were an "enemy combatant" or not) or "a government which wages war on its own citizens is no government at all/the very concept of being at war with your own citizens is nonsensical", and thus the "actively at war" provision cannot apply.

I may be overly generous in believing the dichotomy with respect to expectation of a trial to be between "American citizens" and "enemy combatants in wartime", as opposed to "American citizens" and "those darn furrners", but that's my take on it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:19 pm UTC

ninja'd!

I don't think it's that Americans think killing non-Americans is okay. Admittedly, some do, and without qualification.

The reason you see people specify "Americans" even if they'd like our government to avoid killing anybody without due process is, I think, because of the explicit protections our Constitution nominally extends specifically to American citizens: due process, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.

What you're seeing from Meaux Pas isn't "I'm cool with the US government killing people as long as they're not Americans." What you're seeing is "The last bastion of integrity our government had, that it would act against its own citizens only under specific circumstances and for specific reasons, is entirely eroded. The government's fine with even killing Americans now. We're fucked."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:22 pm UTC

Well that's an interesting constitutional consideration. But that's not the defence generally given. The defence generally given is ... none. No one ever bothers to defend this attitude, because it's so all-pervasive, everybody seems to think it's self-evident.

I know my previous post was a response to Meaux_Pas, but the reason for my rant was actually mostly Jon Stewart. I love the daily show and I respect Jon Stewart a lot. The other day he had a segment about Obama's drone program, where several times he remarked how bad it was that American citizens were now being killed without due process. He clearly didn't care one bit about non-Americans though. It really depressed me. Especially since he's far from the only one sharing that sentiment. It really seems to be universal amongst both republicans and democrats.

Princess Marzipan wrote:What you're seeing from Meaux Pas isn't "I'm cool with the US government killing people as long as they're not Americans." What you're seeing is "The last bastion of integrity our government had, that it would act against its own citizens only under specific circumstances and for specific reasons, is entirely eroded. The government's fine with even killing Americans now. We're fucked."

That actually makes more sense. Though I'd really wish more people would speak out on behalf of the non-Americans. Or at least think about them. If you want a reason why America is often hated, and distrusted even by its allies, it's this. Americans make it so blatantly obvious that they'll always put American interests above all else.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:26 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:What you're seeing from Meaux Pas isn't "I'm cool with the US government killing people as long as they're not Americans." What you're seeing is "The last bastion of integrity our government had, that it would act against its own citizens only under specific circumstances and for specific reasons, is entirely eroded. The government's fine with even killing Americans now. We're fucked."

That actually makes more sense. Though I'd really wish more people would speak out on behalf of the non-Americans.

That's my interpretation as well. The fact that we kill people without due process is bad and disturbing, regardless of their citizenship. The fact that we kill random Iraqi kids is a lot less shocking, if just as bad.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:Didn't you notice, we don't have to have trials anymore. The government is totally OK with killing Americans.

You know, that's the one issue on which even the most pacifist, liberal Americans spontaneously seem to turn into blood thirsty barbarians. There always seem to be huge debates raging in the US over whether it's okay to assassinate American citizens, and if so, under which circumstances. But I've never, ever, ever seen any American suggest that, you know, perhaps killing non-Americans isn't totes cool either.

I'm not using hyperbole here. Every single American writer, tv-host, commentator, blogger, etc, who I've ever encountered seems to think it's completely self-evident that killing non-Americans without any form of trial or due process is totally ok. I've never heard anybody (that is: any American) speak out against this.

As a non-American, this attitude scares me more than anything. To know that even the most liberal people in what is still the most powerful country on earth think my life is worth less than theirs just because I wasn't born in the USA is depressing.

Uhhh you're apparently looking in the wrong direction, because my media intake is almost entirely made up of liberals, maybe not 'pacifists' but those who are definitely against stupid wars, and they have big, big problems with civilian casualties of any nation, not to mention very vocal about the number of casualties amongst actual combatants.
This past weekend's Up With Chris Hayes is worth watching if you don't believe me, though yes the impetus for this coverage was the killing of two American citizens, one of whom was a minor. Your statements are, in fact, hyperbole, or just plain wrong.
Princess Marzipan wrote:
What you're seeing from Meaux Pas isn't "I'm cool with the US government killing people as long as they're not Americans." What you're seeing is "The last bastion of integrity our government had, that it would act against its own citizens only under specific circumstances and for specific reasons, is entirely eroded. The government's fine with even killing Americans now. We're fucked."

word.
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:59 pm UTC

No, it's valid to look at the expressed sentiment and wonder "Uhh, and what about NON-Americans?"

But it's important to realize where the expressed sentiment is coming from, and realize that it's expressing frustration at a problem that has to be fixed FIRST, before fixing the wider problem.

You're never going to have a situation where one's own citizens are *more* targets for hostile action than foreigners. At best, it will be equal. A state that gives foreigners more protection than citizens is...not a state. Who wants to be a member of a club that treats its members more poorly than its non-members?
Since equal treatment is the best a foreigner can hope for, the fact that US citizens have no guarantee of due process and can have their rights opaquely revoked by the US government therefore means no foreigner can reasonably expect due process.

So yes, it's shitty that non-Americans receive that kind of treatment and dismissal by the US government. That can't be fixed, though, until we can ensure that Americans are protected from that treatment. And since we can't even manage that...

Everyone's fucked, is what I'm getting at here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:02 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Who wants to be a member of a club that treats its members more poorly than its non-members?


Scientologists
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They/them

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:10 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Who wants to be a member of a club that treats its members more poorly than its non-members?

EA Sports employees.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Radical_Initiator » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:46 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:Who wants to be a member of a club that treats its members more poorly than its non-members?


Scientologists

Was thinking "Jehovah's Witnesses", but yours works, too.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:15 am UTC

engr wrote:
Angua wrote:Actually the smoke generally suffocates you to death first. But it's nice of you to bring up how dying in a fire is such a horrible death in such a sympathetic way for all the other people who die in fires.


You see, I am a firefighter. Part of my duty is to rescue people from fires, even if they are murderers. However, having sympathy for murderers who kill my brothers is not in my job description. And for me, a police officer is as much of a brother as a firefighter or a paramedic.
I may regret my words and my response later, but right now my reaction is "I hope the murderer suffered". I will leave it at that.


Hell-o;
I would like to talk to you.
If you do work For The People as a First Responder, then you may want to talk to someone.

Someone wants to talk to you. There are truly fucking bad people out there.
3%. A professional knows that stuff.
A professional knows other stuff, too.

The way I understand it; You are sitting at a computer keyboard.
Sitting at a keyboard is not hazardous duty.

Once you became a professional you took vows. Right?
Will you bring your vows for us to look at?

You may not be Police. You are a place for us to start.
Your loyalty seems to be with the portion of the population that wears a uniform.
Your Brothers are sometimes women. Right?

Those Vows and your departments Mission Statement.
Then we can begin. Maybe, you can teach us how to talk to our local Police.

I don't mind starting with the Firefighters. EMT's are good, too.
You are an EMT. Right?

I guess we need your job description, too.
It will be so great to talk to one of our employees!

Are you posters so very excited? I am.
Hey! Maybe, The Firefighter can have his own thread.
He can explain all the important stuff to us.

Recap. If you are an employee of the government, and are making public statements, then....?....
Of course, xkcd can know in a very few key strokes where you are and the contents of your computer.
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Do you wear a uniform?

Being a Firefighter is, kind of, cool.
You guys have great toys.
Your job descriptions are very important.

You must by a condition of your job description get that stuff out, make sure it works, test it, test each other, clean it and put it away. Repeat.
Such a fun job.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:38 am UTC

Diadem wrote:That actually makes more sense. Though I'd really wish more people would speak out on behalf of the non-Americans. Or at least think about them. If you want a reason why America is often hated, and distrusted even by its allies, it's this. Americans make it so blatantly obvious that they'll always put American interests above all else.

The media and government go to great lengths to prevent us from thinking about them. Not that this excuses the behavior and really it makes it worse as they hide it because American's don't want to think about it. It's just one of many good reasons to dislike or hate American culture.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:50 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:Who wants to be a member of a club that treats its members more poorly than its non-members?
Belial wrote:Scientologists
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:EA Sports employees.
Radical_Initiator wrote:Jehovah's Witnesses

I didn't know it was possible to be three places at once, let alone walk right into each of them simultaneously, but I guess that's why I'm not a physicist.
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