Police misbehavior thread

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Iulus Cofield
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:03 am UTC

Term limits on Congressmen is actually a really, really terrible idea. It sounds good, but in practice it makes a Congress filled with inexperienced legislators who, having little idea what they're doing, look to more experienced people to help them. Sometimes that is people who have been in Congress longer, leading to an even greater disproportionate influence among incumbents, or to lobbyists who ultimately end up having more experience on average than any Congressman.

We tried it in Oregon and fortunately it did not last long. It is counter-intuitively anti-democratic.

I can't foresee any particular problem with terms on Supreme Court Justices though, so long as they're not eligible for reappointment.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:51 am UTC

According to Wikipedia, Oregon term limits were only 6 years for the house; I agree that that's too short, but just because that didn't end up well doesn't mean that term limits themselves aren't a good idea. To me, 12 years seems a good balance of long enough to have experienced people, but not so long that it is filled with grumpy old people controlling everything. However, even 18 or 24 years would be a huge improvement. I mean, we've had Cecil Turtle in office for 28 years, and that's just too damn long.

Of course, our electoral system is a huge part of the problem as well. If you are a long sitting member of congress in a district that heavily leans towards your party, you are pretty much guaranteed the seat for the rest of your life, regardless of your record.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby J Thomas » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:02 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Term limits on Congressmen is actually a really, really terrible idea. It sounds good, but in practice it makes a Congress filled with inexperienced legislators who, having little idea what they're doing, look to more experienced people to help them. Sometimes that is people who have been in Congress longer, leading to an even greater disproportionate influence among incumbents, or to lobbyists who ultimately end up having more experience on average than any Congressman.


If you were to limit it to one term....

After every new election the new congress would be full of people who don't know what's impossible. They would not know how they were supposed to do things. They would have to negotiate with each other to establish how to do things, beyond the simple rules of Roberts Order etc they should follow.

It might be glorious.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:22 am UTC

J Thomas wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Term limits on Congressmen is actually a really, really terrible idea. It sounds good, but in practice it makes a Congress filled with inexperienced legislators who, having little idea what they're doing, look to more experienced people to help them. Sometimes that is people who have been in Congress longer, leading to an even greater disproportionate influence among incumbents, or to lobbyists who ultimately end up having more experience on average than any Congressman.


If you were to limit it to one term....

After every new election the new congress would be full of people who don't know what's impossible. They would not know how they were supposed to do things. They would have to negotiate with each other to establish how to do things, beyond the simple rules of Roberts Order etc they should follow.

It might be glorious.

ech. You are both right.

The handlers can be a huge problem.
Lobbyists and People that are Here To Help You.

Good grief. With such help. (?)
No one person can withstand the avalanche of paperwork, marketing bullshit and raise money for a constant popularity contest. It is, just, impossible.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:33 am UTC

Well, that's why they have staff.

In my ideal world we would have some sort of proportional representation and a higher ratio of representatives to people. The two party system means that the parties can basically ignore issues they are uncomfortable with, and they can be comfortable in their seats. The other problem is that the politicians basically control the entire conversation in the media. Why else is the debt a huge issue while police brutality is basically brushed aside? Politicians can't support the public without alienating the police, and they can't support the police without alienating the public. However, if you ignore everyone, then everyone is happy!

With proportional representation and more representatives, you could add a couple other major parties and a few seat-holding minor parties into the mix, change the existing major parties, and it would be much easier for someone who isn't rich to get a seat in congress, making it much more difficult to suppress issues. The result of this is that things like private prisons would have a harder time getting support, the population would get more say, and it would be much easier for voters to do something about police brutality and abuse. With all our problems with the police, in the end it lies in the hands of the politicians.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby wumpus » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:10 pm UTC

Isn't this whole thing (rookie politician maneuvered by his assigned handlers) the basis for Yes, Minister/Yes, Prime Minister? This doesn't begin to ask how the politician got nominated in the first place (typically by selling his soul to anybody who will buy it).

If 220+ years of "throwing the bums out" and electing new politicians results in the same type of government, I would claim that expecting any type of political replacement not to the same as the old boss to be insanity (expecting different results from identical conditions). I would suggest a new type of democracy where you could vote (presumably over a semi-secure internet connection) daily actions (ideally splitting less important issues and committee actions between the voters and only requiring the whole thing for high visibility votes). You should also start at the county level (maybe with dog catcher) as increasing democracy tends to (temporarily) increase some really bad government (in the US: rich white men get the vote and promptly put in the alien and sedition acts, poorer white men get the vote and put in Andrew Jackson, women got the vote and enacted prohibition, etc.).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby J Thomas » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Well, that's why they have staff.

In my ideal world we would have some sort of proportional representation and a higher ratio of representatives to people. The two party system means that the parties can basically ignore issues they are uncomfortable with, and they can be comfortable in their seats. The other problem is that the politicians basically control the entire conversation in the media. Why else is the debt a huge issue while police brutality is basically brushed aside? Politicians can't support the public without alienating the police, and they can't support the police without alienating the public. However, if you ignore everyone, then everyone is happy!

With proportional representation and more representatives, you could add a couple other major parties and a few seat-holding minor parties into the mix, change the existing major parties, and it would be much easier for someone who isn't rich to get a seat in congress, making it much more difficult to suppress issues. The result of this is that things like private prisons would have a harder time getting support, the population would get more say, and it would be much easier for voters to do something about police brutality and abuse. With all our problems with the police, in the end it lies in the hands of the politicians.


If you want something new, at the same time you need it to be something people are familiar with or it's harder to get them to accept it.

So I suggest you make it more like the proxy system that corporations use. Anybody can assign their proxy to anybody else. The person they assign their proxy to can vote it, or assign it on to somebody else still. But set it up so you can withdraw your proxy from whoever has it at any time and vote yourself or assign it to somebody else still.

Maybe make it so that if you have 0.1% of all the proxies, you can sit in Congress, but you can vote whether you sit in Congress or not. Since a lot of proxies won't get to just a few people, we might wind up with a few hundred representatives sitting in Congress.

If you choose to give your proxy to a party they will use it however they want. But you can instead give it to a particular politician you like who is a member of that party, and then he has that much independence. But if he does too much you don't like, you can switch your proxy to anybody else you prefer.

And any time your proxy is in your hands, you can withdraw your vote from any existing legislation. When it no longer has a majority it becomes void.

Since we don't want the laws to get too complicated, we should have a limit on the number of laws, maybe 200 might be a reasonable number. Each proposed law could include a list of candidate laws to repeal if it gets passed, preferably laws it would supercede.

I think this would have some advantages. Every now and then people would suddenly realize that some law was about to be repealed, and they would notice whether they wanted that law enough to vote for it, or whether they would prefer to vote it down, and what are their proxies doing?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby emceng » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:16 pm UTC

I disagree with that. Part of the reason they're on scotus for life is to try and remove the petty political wrangling that occurs in Congress. What would happen if they needed to re-up every six years? Well Bush would have tossed all the liberal justices, and Obama the conservative ones. That is the whole freaking point of independent branches of government.

Back on thread topic:

http://apnews.excite.com/article/201304 ... D0083.html

The NYPD seems to be the biggest proponents of using every means available to arrest someone. It's all in the name of reducing crime, but it is also hurting civil liberties.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:38 pm UTC

The basic idea actually doesn't seem too terrible but yeah. Wow. They managed to really mess that one up big time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:39 pm UTC

Considering that NYC has a relatively low crime rate, I'd say the heavy handed tactics are reducing crime. And considering that at the same time, NYC went from a joke to being a destination for many college grads, I'd say that security is more important than liberty. The problem is when it gents to the point where the lack of liberty is the biggest threat to security...

And before you bring in Franklin, it's essential liberty for temporary security.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:The basic idea actually doesn't seem too terrible but yeah. Wow. They managed to really mess that one up big time.


The fact the person in question here actually went up to the car to see what was inside seems pretty sketchy in and of itself though. That's certainly not the first reaction I'd expect after seeing someone being chased by the cops.

Doesn't change the fact the people in this case didn't actually do anything wrong. With nothing taken from the car, I find it difficult to see what charges were actually levied against them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:17 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Doesn't change the fact the people in this case didn't actually do anything wrong. With nothing taken from the car, I find it difficult to see what charges were actually levied against them.

The article states it: petty larceny and possession of stolen property.
The girl ultimately wasn't charged. But her mother spent more than two years fighting charges of petty larceny and possession of stolen property.


Obviously, she wasn't convicted, but being changed with a crime is not trivial. The fact that she got charged with a crime on such shaky grounds is terrible. It makes you start to wonder: if she looked different (eg, white, middle class), do you think she would have been charged for the same act?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:23 pm UTC

The fact that the sting didn't wait until after she had actually taken the bait and tried to leave speaks volumes. Should've been thrown out of court; sure, curiosity has killed a few cats but that doesn't mean curiosity should be a crime.

That said, she may have been tampering with (fake) evidence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:51 pm UTC

Or there may have been dachshund suffering from heat exhaustion. If only we had some way to find out!

Looking at a thing on your street is not a crime.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Vash » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

I don't really want to read 100+ pages, so I can't even say if that data is field data, or not. As for the thing that is clearly field data, it does not support the idea that drug-sniffing dogs are impossible, just that the practice is bad in the area of the study. There seems to be a mild amount of support for the idea that drug-sniffing dogs in pratice are not working, though. However, not evaluating the Australian paper really does not help in forming a solid opinion on this.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Considering that NYC has a relatively low crime rate, I'd say the heavy handed tactics are reducing crime. And considering that at the same time, NYC went from a joke to being a destination for many college grads, I'd say that security is more important than liberty. The problem is when it gents to the point where the lack of liberty is the biggest threat to security...

And before you bring in Franklin, it's essential liberty for temporary security.


That's a pretty decent conclusion...but kind of a scary one. Heavy handed tactics that don't work...well, we can all feel good opposing those. But heavy handed tactics that do work are going to garner at least some support, which will delay the harder, but preferable path of finding less overtly bad tactics that also work.

And yes, looking at a thing should not be a crime. Sure, you might get some actual crooks that way, but your false positive rate is going to be unacceptably high. I think there's a burden to target actual criminals fairly narrowly, and not burden innocents by defending themselves from fairly innocuous actions.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

Vash wrote:I don't really want to read 100+ pages, so I can't even say if that data is field data, or not. As for the thing that is clearly field data, it does not support the idea that drug-sniffing dogs are impossible, just that the practice is bad in the area of the study.


Well, the idea isn't that they're impossible. Dogs absolutely can be trained to detect drugs. However, when their handlers are also the people for whom the dogs function as a shortcut around the fourth amendment, there's a conflict of interest inherent in the relationship that ensures the dogs' training will break down almost immediately. Dogs are not trained once and then deployed, like all animals their behaviour has to be constantly reinforced or else it changes. And in the hands of someone who is more interested in getting to search whoever they'd like to search, the dog will invariably be rewarded based on that mindset, rather than a mindset of "only detect drugs when there are actually drugs" (and bear in mind that dogs with a strong pack drive can be "rewarded" and "punished" by things like their handler seeming pleased/upset)

The only real way around that would be to have drug dog handlers who are unconnected in any way to law enforcement, have no sympathies with the cops with whom they work, and have no incentives to make those cops' jobs easier (by circumventing annoying things like the constitution). This...does not seem terribly likely. Or possible.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:29 pm UTC

Ahhhh!
http://apnews.excite.com/article/201304 ... D0083.html
"You know how embarrassing and humiliating this was?" Myers said. "I'd never been stopped by the police for anything in my life."

I took the above quote from the article.
It reminds me of Mary Sue Terry.

I am spelling her name wrong.
Yesterday, I read her files.

A Long, Long post about a place and people that are as real to me as the NYC woman is to you.
Spoiler:
I wanted to know. I had heard Catherine's side way back in 2012.

Not easy to get access. So, Strange.
It was like I used Magic Words. I didn't.

I asked for the Prosecuting Attorneys office.
I went to a Locked Door. The Door has holes for speaking through a bullet proof glass partisan.

ok. Fine. That kind of makes sense. This is the office of the people that cause a lot of other people problems. Right? I did not think of that at the time.

I was mildly inconvenienced by the glass barrier. She could hear me if She stood directly in front of me. If she walked away. I had to speak into the hole.

Kind of funny. They need to clean their hole. It has dust and crap inside it. (yuck.) The wind does not blow inside the building?

I digressed. Sorry.

I want to know The Truth. I think I do. Poor Mary Sue.
I am spelling her name Wrong.

She is such a sweet woman. Some people get all excited about how you spell their names. I remember her telling me I had spelled her name wrong. She was so easy going. I had written a note.

She said, "That's not my name."
I said, "Really? Then I pronounced it."

She said, "Yes."

I said, "She will know I meant you."

She agreed. She said, "Many people misspell my name."

How is it spelled? I read her files and Can't spell her name. Bad!
Marisu. That might be it. (shrug.)

The attorney's office for The People's Attorney was staffed by women. DA's Office. Right? That seems to be a constant, like C. It's not. Not in civilized nations.

The Run Around Began;
They sent me to her private Attorney. It is not a large City. The young woman gave me directions.

Her Attorney's Office Staff was willing to make an appointment for me to speak to Him.
They did not like a Stranger asking questions.

As I walked out I notice the weather was Lovely. I also noticed a man I call Kant. He has a real name. Something calming about that man, sometimes. I don't, really, know him. We spoke. I walked him back to his office.

Then I walked back into the Court House.
I had written something down.
I read it.

The woman said, "Do you have a question?"
I said, "Yes." "Why can't I read The People's case against Mary Sue Terry? I'm a People."

She Handed me The File and told me to not leave with it.
I said "ok."

I read one file. I took a break.
The Office Staff closes down The Office for lunch.

I took a long break. I pulled over on The Road. We have large pull outs and weird views. A tourist was having lunch.

We saw something in the water. He did not have binocs. I did. Whales? Maybe.
Weird whales. I did not see Poofs. Whales Poof. Not always. They were hanging out close to shore.

Dark and kind of ugly. I have no idea what they were.
There were a lot of them.
Eight to twelve in one group.
At least four in the group following.
Others spread out father from shore.

What were those things? Why were they so near to shore?
The water from the cliffs looked like water that is a cold dark current breaking up in a warmer lighter colored current.

It sure was pretty. Those animals were ugly.
I am willing to bet they do not judge one another by my standards of beauty.

Then I went back to The Court House and I read the second file. Poor sweet Marisu. Good God!

She signed away her rights.
She did a plea bargain for something she did not do.
The effects of the plea bargain (That Device) caused her to interact with the Police a second time. Fuck. Poor Marisu.

The snotty witnesses. Marisu must have read what they wrote.
At dinner she said, "I am younger than they will be at my age!"
She was serous. I agreed with her.

Her son thought it was funny.

One of the witness wrote, "She seemed confused." , "Her hands were shaking." , "Her car horn was honking randomly".

Poor Marisu. The there was a lot going on. Constructon Zone. Her niece was lost and waiting by a road Marisu does not use. She could see her niece. Her niece was waiting for her. She could not see her niece, when she first entered the Zone. (shrug.)

Is that Why she was tailgating?
Each one of the witnesses said, "Marisu was Tailgating The Pilot Car."
Tailgating is bad.

Maybe, Marisu does need to take a driving class. All the new technology stuff. The Rules of The Road are a little different now than from when Marisu and I learned to drive.


She had a cell phone conversation with her niece, going on.
She had That fucking Device, going on.
She had a conversation with a flagger in three D outside her car window, going on.
She had the car horn, going on.
She had heavy equipment outside an open window, going on.
She had a map of the Area inside her head, going on.
She was excited to see her niece. That was, going on, too.

Well; Family.
I will never know what that is like. Still.
I know what it is to have a friend come visit. Very exciting stuff.
Is that Why she was tailgating?
Each one of the witnesses said, "Marisu was Tailgating The Pilot Car."
Tailgating is bad.
So is being accused of being a menace to society. Poor Marisu.

It does not matter. She plea bargained to a DUI. They did not drop the Reckless driving charge. They ADDED DUI to Reckless driving?! Fuck. Poor Marisu.

Cars are so much easier to drive, today.
Is there another person alive that has driven old cars when they were young?
pfft. Those old cars are hard to drive.
No power steering.
No power brakes.
Front end alignment is redone by the bumps in the road.
Have you ever driven a car with a 'shemmy'? It's fun; For the Young, stupid and Adventurous.

None of that has anything to do with Marisu's 2nd case.
It has everything to do with her 1st case.


Several months ago, Marisu had an accident. That is when she pled to a DUI.

People are so judgmental.
She had an accident. She called Catherine.
Catherine called the Police.

Catherine got me involved, too.
Catherine is like modern media on Steroids.

No accountability. She does not have to answer to anyone.
Holy Fuck! I have learned I can not guess what Catherine will say from day to day or minute to minute.

She says that she is hyperactive. It does seem to be true.
Way back, a very long time ago; I would follow her around and help and talk to her.
Mostly she talked to me. ech. It was a back and forth kind of thing.

I did not talk much. It was a loud environment.
Sometimes. Many times. The place was quiet.

The dogs were all sleeping. The rain fell the way it does.
I like those kinds of times.

We talked about the relative merits of Dogs as protection.
We talked about Dogs used as weapons.

Catherine has a very low opinion of human beings.
She knows about Dogs being used as weapons.
Somehow she got involved with pit bulls.

My position Was and still Is:
Dogs are a liability. Fun, Goofy liabilities.

Some Dogs make the leap from Jack Ass to Asshole.
Most don't. They never grow up. Never.

Catherine was Police.
Angie still is.
Who do the Police listen to?
Catherine.

Who does the Judge listen to?
The Police.

The woman in NYC is young and healthy and able to fight Police Paperwork for Two Years.
How many Americans can not or will not fight? Two years in a long time.


The woman in NYC is lucky she was not painted with the Sexual Crime Brush.
Or; The equally dehumanizing Terrorist Brush.

She got painted with the Untrustworthy Big Black Woman Brush.
Was the photo real? The photo of a Big Black Woman All Dolled Up.

I have to wonder; People's lives are being destroyed. That is True.
How much of the damage is Just? None!

To damage the lives of other people is wrong.
It is unjust.

Punishing the innocent is even worse. Poor Marisu.
She is so innocent.

The bright lights of NYC are far away from Marisu.


Police Misbehavior?
Oh. I don't know.
What do you think?

Spoiler for a Long Personal Story.
Spoiler:
I don't have friends.
I would like some.

As you may know; I am from around here.
Not here, here.

Anyway; Friends. How are they made?
A simple enough recipe. Right?

I met a woman in the community.
I liked her. She seemed to like me.

We giggled about some of the Mean Girls.
We talked about Architecture.

Her formal education is in Architecture.
I am interested in Architecture.

She majored in Historical American Architecture.
I had an old house. We could talk.

She visited me at my home and we chatted while we did her volunteer work.
No big deal. Yet; It was nice to have someone to talk to once in a while.

Well; I wandered down to see her one Saturday. She said, "'They' don't want me to talk to you."
I said, "What?!"

She was nervous. It was not fun. I wandered back to my quarters.
The next week I spoke to her Boss. The Boss said there was no problem.
The Boss might lie. The Boss might not lie. I have no idea.

Mirrisa is the name of the woman I liked.
That week her truck was stolen.

Yes. It might be a flimsy excuse for not having friends.
Yet; It might be the truth. Being my friend may be inconvenient.

She had a difficult week. Her truck was stolen. Her Dog was in it.
The Dog showed up at a shelter within a few hours.

The Police had the truck. It was not damaged.
What she said to me was. "I have a $500.00 truck.
"It cost me $300.00 to get it back."

Again; I said, "What?!"

She was still upset. She kept saying,
"The Police. It was the Police."

I do not know what she was talking about.
The Police did what? Took it? Charged the victim for return of her truck? What?
The dog is fine.

That woman Loves that truck. It was her first car.
She bought it new. It is not new anymore.
Still; She Loves it.

While we were getting to know one another she showed me her truck.
She told me, when the truck was new; People would ask her.
"Where is your boyfriend?"
"Does your boyfriend mind you using his truck?"
She would make arrangement to do something with a new acquaintance;
They would ask, "Can you take your boyfriend's truck?"
She would make arrangement to move a heavy item with the truck.
They would ask, "Have to asked your boyfriend?"

She thinks it is funny. It was her truck. It was always her truck.
The truck is old now. She still loves it. It is like a faithful old pet.

They stole her truck. The Police? I don't know.
All these years she has never had her car broken into nor stolen.
Poor Marissa. She was usually so calm. Not that day.

What?! Does it rub off of me when I talk to someone?
I have not had my car broken into nor vandalized sense I talked to Catherine.
That could change with a telephone call, too.

Poor Michelle Dhyanna. Michelle Dhyanna; Sweet Michelle.
She had a car impounded over and over until she lost it to impound fees.
Marrissa is not as close a friend as Michelle was.
If that is the price to be friends with me, then that may explain why I don't have any.
No one but no one wants to have their life disrupted. I am not disruptive. Someone is.

Michelle Dhyanna was told to not be my friend.
She is smart.
She is also innocent and was living a fun life with her head in the clouds.

Michelle said, "No one tells me Who my friends can be."
She lost her job, her apartment and had trouble with a very aggressive woman threatening her and following her home.
That all happened the week after she said she wanted to be my friend, anyway. Connected events? Maybe. Maybe, not.

I used to like the Police. Well; Some of them.
Now?

It would be anarchy with no Police.
This is not that much better than anarchy.

Who am I fooling. Almost everything is better than anarchy.
Young men and stupid old men with an exaggerated sense of both their importance and survival skills like the idea of Anarchy.

These are people who have been socialized by Mad Max of Thrunderzone and !st person shooter video games.
If anarchy breaks out, The video game skills are worthless. The electrical grid is delicate.
The stupid fighting over fuel thing is stupid, too.

Fight over an explosive and the explosive runs a large chance of exploding.
These people are having fun? I'm not.

Poor Marissa.


Police Misbehavior?
I don't know.
Spoiler:
Well? At least one of The Police talked to me.
I received a threatening e-mail.

The threat was; 'I have contacted The Police.'
So; I thought I better, just, turn myself in.

We had a nice chat. I have no idea if he was telling me The Truth or Not.
He promised to have dinner with Marisu, tonight.

On his own time. The last time he saw her, he was wearing a Uniform.
He was getting paid to take a citation to her.
Someone had issued a Warrant for her Arrest.

What he told me was: All warrants come into his internet machines from Somewhere.
He reads that stuff. It must be interesting. And; It is his Job.

When he saw the warrant for Marisu, he decided to stop The Arrest.
Poor Marisu. He went out to her home and delivered the Citation.

He told her that they wanted to Arrest her! This must be a slice of Hell for Marisu.
Now; By law, Marisu can not drive on Public Roadways.

He and I do not agree about how far it is to Marisu's home.
I think it is out in The Fricking Middle Of Nowhere!
He said, "It is only half a mile to town."

I was visiting with Marisu and her Son at Marisu's home.
Marisu was hurt in an accident.

I was standing. Marisu sat on the sofa. She curled herself up, her back hurts.
She looked up at me. She was like a frightened and innocent child.

She said, "It is too far to walk."
She is right. It is too far to walk. For fun, a young person could do it.

For fun, a young person or and old person could go on a Wild Adventure.
From the Front Door To The Paved Road.
If I left by noon, I could be back by dark.

That is The Edge of Town!
It would take a strong man an hour, maybe more, to walk from Out There to the Center.

That Police person said as he shrugged, "Everyone has an expiration date."
I wonder; What does he means by that?

He is a Policeman. He is not Medical Personal. He told me Marisu has dementia.
Dementia is a specific set of symptoms. I can't tell. She seems fine to me.


Different kind of story. I sat in a Court Room.
Marisu Terry's attorney told me to.
Marisu was not the only person being Judged.

No Police Doing Anything.
One in the Room.
Then he left.
(shrug.)

Spoiler:
I have not one clue what to think.
Some of it was funny.
I didn't laugh.

When I was in danger of smiling I put my head down.
One man was charged with Attempted DUI.

My ears perked up. Attempted? How do you attempt?
The way this guy did it was by High Centering his Truck.
It seems he did not make it out of the Parking Lot.
He may not have made it completely out of the Parking Spot.

So, funny. These things happen.
I was sober as a Judge and thumped up onto a divider.
Why did they put a big thing like that in the middle of the parking lot?
Why did I walk over it and not see it? (shrug.)

I don't remember the Blood alcohol numbers.
His was 1.6. How is that?
He didn't drive drunk. He thought about it.
He even gave it a shot.

The God's in Their wisdom stopped him?
Maybe; His MaMa thinks they did.

There were more Jewels per hour in Court than there was At The County Commissioner's meetings.

I took notes; No one is interested in what I think, anyway.

It takes a few minute for me to be able to understand what Those People are saying.
After the paperwork was done on one case, The Judge and the guy in Orange and Shackles (?)
Yes. I think he had on Shackles. That is beside the point.

He turned 21 in Jail. Twenty-one is a big deal in the US.
After 21 a person can buy alcohol legally.

He said he Recked three cars while driving drunk,
Before he turned 21.
He was oddly proud of The Fact. (shrug.)

The Judge talked to him, after The Paperwork.
The Judge said, "Think of your Mom."
I got the feeling, the Judge knows his Mom.

Pray to Saint Antony for Lost Items.
Do you know Why?
Even Saint Antony's Mom had given him up for Lost.

Saint Antony became a 'Found' Item.
The Judge may be 'like Family' to this young man.
The Judge may be Family to this young man.
I have no idea Who is Who.

It was a sweet moment. The Young Man, twenty-one years old.
The Judge that has been watching him grow up.
"Think of Your Mom." The judge said.

The idea of Pacisso pleases me.
The idea of His Mom may please him.
I don't know.

Anything else, funny?
Not funny; Strange.

A Man in his late forties or early fifties.
His Mom Called The Police!

The poor guy. He moved away from home.
He's Fifty! His Mother called the Police.

The Police checked on him for his mother.
He uses Medical Pot.
The Police checked on him for his mother,
Then, arrested him for Pot.

He has never had an interaction with The Police, The Court, The System, before this; Ever.
He wrote a statement. He could not make his mouth work.
His attorney read it for him.

It did not make a whole lot of sense to me. (shrug.)
His attorney treated him well.
The Judge was as kind to him as the Law will allow.

The Prosecuting was not pleased.
The Judge said, "No one is going to walk out of this one, Happy."

There seems to be a movement a foot.
No matter what a person has done.
"Throw the Book at Them! By Any Means Necessary."

The attorney for That man is not a Local.
He made a remark, "Every court system is different. This one is, just, more different."

There are some Big People out there.
The attorney was 6 foot 2, maybe more.
He was 230#, at least.
His client was 5 foot 5, maybe less.
He was 150#, maybe less.

The man that ran over the divider was as large as the attorney.
Big people.

Have you ever met a Yuma Indian? They are big, too.
So, weird how that happens.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby omgryebread » Thu May 02, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

Taiwanese animated version of NYPD stop-and-frisk

Any words won't really convey anything meaningful about how amazing that video is.
avatar from Nononono by Lynn Okamoto.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu May 02, 2013 11:52 pm UTC

If I had to pick one, I'd go with "glorious".
"It's Saturday night. I've got no date, a two-liter of Shasta, and my all-Rush mixtape. Let's rock!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri May 03, 2013 12:10 am UTC

Dauric wrote:
Enokh wrote:I carry proof of insurance in my wallet, so I wouldn't get a ticket. I'm not sure why you would carry it anywhere else. I'm pretty confused as to how this is an issue: there is a law that states you must be able to provide proof of insurance under X conditions. He was unable to provide proof that he had insurance while under X conditions. I can accept saying that the law itself is unreasonable and that it should be changed/removed, but the idea that the police officer is a giant asshole and/or part of the Evil Conglomeration of Maniacal Policepersons for enforcing this is a little outrageous.

(edited)


There's a difference between the "Evil Conglomeration of Maniacal Policepersons" and the "Aloof Bureaucracy too wrapped up in it's own mechanics to allow it's employees to use common sense."

The guy had just taught his child some some degree of independence (getting in and out of the car by himself) and the child, as some children are want to do, promptly demonstrated that he shouldn't be trusted with that knowledge by getting out of the car before his dad could park and rushed towards a steep embankment above running water. The dad panicked, probably images of having to identify his kid's swollen and waterlogged corpse flashing in his mind.

Now, if he'd pulled in to a parking space, got out with his kid and they were side by side walking towards the river all "Andy Griffith Show", and while they're doing that it turns out the jeep is still in drive and heading for the water that's one thing, but in this case if the dad had been taking longer to secure his car, his son may have been seriously injured or worse.

No harm was done, except to the guy's own property (that jeep would be considered totaled) so even if the officers had let him off with a warning it's not like he got off without any consequences. Instead, in addition to a totaled jeep and the cost of a wrecker to pull it out of the river, he's got fines from the city just to add to such a wonderful day he had, and possibly an additional day of joy and wonder if he decides to go to court to fight the ticket.

Police officers should have the ability to act on some degree of common sense, and not just follow things by the book, because no law no matter how well crafted or well intentioned will cover every possible situation.

What a Great Story!
Poor Man was having a rough day.
You tell it so well. Poor man.
So, very funny. I love Stupid Human tricks.

Yes. It could have been much worse.
Both he and the child lived.

No other people nor dogs taken down with The Jeep.
yey! Rough day fishing?

Do you think he replaced his, "The Worse day Fishing is better than the Best day at Work." bumper sticker?

The Police? Who knows?
The Police Person may have been thinking, "I have to give this Asshole a Ticket for Something! He jumped out a vehicle and left it in Gear! Idiot!"

But; None of us will ever know. Those moments are Sliding Doors.
Even a moment's hesitation could change so much. It is so easy to Judge, from the outside.

The Police? What were The Police doing there?
Called? Oh. They show up late and then gave the Man a ticket?
Poor Man. Did the Police give him a ride home? Or; To Jail?

This seems to be something People complain about.
"I called The Police for help."
"Then, The Police harassed me!"

Sometimes the complainer IS the problem.
Some Police go to school for a long time to learn how to do The Job.
They take courses like Conflict Management and Conflict Resolution.
Human Development and Organization Classes, too.

There must be at least Two reasonable, intelligent, well educated and responsible and responsive Police People.
I met one. I did not spend much time with him. He goes to a lot of meetings.

Yes. I have heard of people that learned On The Job.
I have also Seen people that have been learning On The Job for twenty years and Still! don't know anything!

Who knows? Why did it make The News?
How many cars run away from Home each day in The United States?
How about in The World?
Where cars and the world of Flesh and Blood men and women intersect, a lot of funny stuff goes on.


Spoiler:
Why did it 'make the News'?
What do The Police do that gets on your nerves?

The Police have been so nice to me, recently.
I am not complaining. Still. Why?

I Know I am not invisible.
If they want me. I am easy to find.

No reason for them to want me.
There is no more, nor any less reason now than there was Then.

oh. oh. Less Reason. There is Less Reason. Why?
I am less powerful. I have less control over exterior stuff?
That is true. Still; Why?

I don't, have to, like it. What is your beef with The Police?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby kiklion » Fri May 03, 2013 12:13 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Vash wrote:I don't really want to read 100+ pages, so I can't even say if that data is field data, or not. As for the thing that is clearly field data, it does not support the idea that drug-sniffing dogs are impossible, just that the practice is bad in the area of the study.


Well, the idea isn't that they're impossible. Dogs absolutely can be trained to detect drugs. However, when their handlers are also the people for whom the dogs function as a shortcut around the fourth amendment, there's a conflict of interest inherent in the relationship that ensures the dogs' training will break down almost immediately. Dogs are not trained once and then deployed, like all animals their behaviour has to be constantly reinforced or else it changes. And in the hands of someone who is more interested in getting to search whoever they'd like to search, the dog will invariably be rewarded based on that mindset, rather than a mindset of "only detect drugs when there are actually drugs" (and bear in mind that dogs with a strong pack drive can be "rewarded" and "punished" by things like their handler seeming pleased/upset)

The only real way around that would be to have drug dog handlers who are unconnected in any way to law enforcement, have no sympathies with the cops with whom they work, and have no incentives to make those cops' jobs easier (by circumventing annoying things like the constitution). This...does not seem terribly likely. Or possible.


They could also change what is allowed as evidence when a drug dog is used. If a suspect is arrested for another crime, a drug dog may be used to find drugs and anything found can be used as evidence even items that aren't drugs. If there isn't enough evidence to arrest someone, and a drug dog is brought in to find drugs, if they find anything that isn't a drug it isn't allowed as evidence.

Rather than allowing a drug dog to be used as a reason for a more thorough search, make it so drug dogs are only useful to the police if they actually find drugs.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 03, 2013 12:42 pm UTC

And if the dog picks up the scent of body parts?

There was an odd case a few years back. The police entered a home without a warrant or probable cause. But what they found was the corpses of 10 women that had gone missing. So the issue became, could the corpses be used as evidence in a murder trial? I forget what the ruling was, but either a simple yes or no would've been terrible.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat May 11, 2013 4:56 am UTC

http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/x568091070/Dad-who-died-during-arrest-begged-for-his-life-cops-take-witness-video

I don't even know what to say to this. It's basically incomprehensible as to why you'd do this.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat May 11, 2013 5:09 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/x568091070/Dad-who-died-during-arrest-begged-for-his-life-cops-take-witness-video

I don't even know what to say to this. It's basically incomprehensible as to why you'd do this.

Good bonding experience for men of power and authority, I presume.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat May 11, 2013 6:10 am UTC

I wish someone would have copied the video off of their phone before it was confiscated.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Woopate » Sat May 11, 2013 6:40 am UTC

I've had to restrain unruly intoxicated individuals before. It's not as simple as getting the cuffs on them. There's no time that you are totally in control of the situation until the individual is in a cell or a car. At any minute the individual can decide that you've lowered your defense and make a run for it, bowl you over with a tackle or bite you. They may never stop flailing and screaming, and will fake injuries worse than FIFA players. All that chaos added to your already pumping adrenalin, it can be pure chaos.

That said, the actions of these officers (as described) were beyond deplorable. I hope that someone successfully got footage of the events and has yet to come forward. I would be surprised if they saw any penalty for this more severe than a paid suspension.

There needs to be some sort of counselling or continual training to combat the empathic deadening that happens to people in industries such as this. It's not just police, I've witnessed paramedics who lifted a man off the ground, and dropped him three feet onto his casted arm to get him to move without checking him for any other problems. Soon enough every scream is a faked injury, every "stop it you are hurting me!" is a tactic being used by the enemy to get the better of you. Every passerby with a phone is just another rubbernecker who wants to gossip about the crime scene they caught on video, or an accomplice waiting for you to turn your back.

Sometimes I think measures like the one written about in World War Z should be implemented, where psych professionals stood behind the line of rifles on the field of battle, and would dismiss them immediately if they showed signs that the stress was getting to them. We need to watch the ones who defend us with the keenest observation. Their jobs are too critical to allow them to grow hard, and the jobs too stressful to assume they can handle it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun May 12, 2013 1:11 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:I wish someone would have copied the video off of their phone before it was confiscated.

This will be less of an issue in 5-10 years when Google Glass is commonplace and all smartphone videos upload to the cloud by default.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 12, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

So Google's evil master plan is to end police shenanigans once and for all?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun May 12, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/x568091070/Dad-who-died-during-arrest-begged-for-his-life-cops-take-witness-video

I don't even know what to say to this. It's basically incomprehensible as to why you'd do this.

Good bonding experience for men of power and authority, I presume.

That reads, really, bad.
Did it, really, happen?

Bakersfield, California?
It is a Huge City, now.

Spoiler:
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle
Both On and Off topic.
The Battles are, just, Concepts?

Is it a War? Who vs Who?

The Terrorists?

http://www.turnto23.com/news/local-news ... nforcement

I don't want to watch it, again.
When do you first see Flashing Lights?

On The security camera; When do you see flashing lights?
Maybe the Police came late.
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu May 16, 2013 1:48 am UTC

"It's Saturday night. I've got no date, a two-liter of Shasta, and my all-Rush mixtape. Let's rock!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu May 16, 2013 1:54 am UTC

Well, it was a domestic violence call, and when there was no evidence of violence they had to step up and correct that problem.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Woopate » Thu May 16, 2013 3:09 am UTC

When I enter a home, I like to taze the residents. Just in case they might have been willing to talk. I can see kicking down the door(barely), but not the tazing. The cop at the window was peering under his hand, and it was a sunny day. There was probably a lot of glare. He might have thought a trick of the light was visible marks of abuse on one of them. An anonymous tip might not be enough probable cause to enter, but "I thought I saw a visible injury" might be.

The part that gets me is the taser. Way to use your words, guys.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Thu May 16, 2013 8:46 am UTC

Don't be silly. If they were expected to use words, they wouldn't be given a taser in the first place.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Thu May 16, 2013 10:13 am UTC

So what exactly did the police do wrong here?

They told the guy about 15 times that they were going to enter if he didn't open the door, he didn't open the door, they entered. Then they told him about 15 times to get on the ground, he didn't, so they tasered him. I'm not quite sure why they tasered his wife, and that may be a genuine case of police misbehavior, but the video doesn't show the wife, so it's impossible to tell from that video alone. They may have had a good reason, is she was resisting them.

To be fair, I didn't see any immediate threat to the police officers, so they could have waited a bit longer before entering, and before subduing the guy. I'd say the police are perhaps guilty of acting faster than was necessary. So while perhaps a bit excessive, they weren't wrong to enter the house, or to subdue the residents. And they did warn several times before doing either action.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am UTC

They told the guy about 15 times that they were going to enter if he didn't open the door, he didn't open the door, they entered. Then they told him about 15 times to get on the ground, he didn't, so they tasered him.

What gives them the right? I'm not sure how it works in The Netherlands, but I know that both in the USA, and in Australia, where I live, you don't have to do everything a police officer says, just because they say it. The officer didn't have a warrant, the officer didn't have due cause, the officer forced entry into the home after being refused. His duty ends when he comes by and finds absolutely no evidence of the domestic violence he was summoned to investigate. He then proceeded to use excessive force to restrain people who weren't resisting.

Just to reiterate, because I feel like I got a bit rambly: Just because the police warned them, doesn't make it okay.

Let's not kid ourselves here. The police don't like that the people can film them. They can no longer act with the same relative impunity that they once could, and they thus feel threatened. Like in so many other instances every day, they feel their power slipping, and will do absolutely anything to hold on to it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 am UTC

Carlington wrote:
They told the guy about 15 times that they were going to enter if he didn't open the door, he didn't open the door, they entered. Then they told him about 15 times to get on the ground, he didn't, so they tasered him.

What gives them the right? I'm not sure how it works in The Netherlands, but I know that both in the USA, and in Australia, where I live, you don't have to do everything a police officer says, just because they say it. The officer didn't have a warrant, the officer didn't have due cause, the officer forced entry into the home after being refused. His duty ends when he comes by and finds absolutely no evidence of the domestic violence he was summoned to investigate. He then proceeded to use excessive force to restrain people who weren't resisting.

They had probable cause. They had a report of domestic violence. What's the alternative here? "Sir, is it true that you beat your kids?" "Nope" "Ok, oh, carry on then". That's not investigation. To investigate domestic violence you have to enter the guy's home, or at least speak to everybody who lives there. The guy refused them entry and refused to come out to talk. What was the police supposed to have done? Go home without investigating? And then when it turns out they are molesting their children, or there are three women chained up in their basement for 10 years, just say "whoops"?

You say "His duty ends when he comes by and finds absolutely no evidence of the domestic violence he was summoned to investigate", and while that's true, you left out the absolutely vital step of looking for evidence. If you conclude there is no evidence before you even look, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Thu May 16, 2013 11:24 am UTC

Or you go and come back with a warrant. Or just about anything that doesn't involve breaking the door down and using a taser on both parents while the kids are home.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 16, 2013 11:42 am UTC

Diadem wrote:So what exactly did the police do wrong here?

They told the guy about 15 times that they were going to enter if he didn't open the door, he didn't open the door, they entered. Then they told him about 15 times to get on the ground, he didn't, so they tasered him. I'm not quite sure why they tasered his wife, and that may be a genuine case of police misbehavior, but the video doesn't show the wife, so it's impossible to tell from that video alone. They may have had a good reason, is she was resisting them..


Yeah, if they don't have a warrant, and there's no sign of an immediate danger, the cops should chill and go get a warrant. It's not a huge deal. Them being video taped should also not be a cause for concern for them.

Though, I suppose if your preferred method is "taser anyone who doesn't obey", videos are a threat to you.

I suppose the federal police deciding to track all the AP reporters would qualify as misbehavior, yes? Not quite the same personal level of violence, but bothersome all the same. Oh, looks like it wasn't JUST the AP. It looks like it extends to congress as well. This might be a bit of an issue.

Also,thismight be an indication that our police are getting a little bit antsy over random tips. It may not be full-on no-knock raid level...but things like this combined with things like swatting...I'm worried about the power some random person can wield simply by calling a tip line. Not saying to not check them out...maybe just to start with slightly less over the top reactions.

And of course, in an update on the whole "beating a man to death while he begs for his life" thing...turns out they are having a problem with video mysteriously vanishing from confiscated phones. FBI is getting involved.
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Thu May 16, 2013 12:01 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Thu May 16, 2013 11:48 am UTC

If the reason for the police to enter and taser the guy was that he was videotaping them, why didn't they destroy the tape?

That video doesn't show cops upset about being taped. They don't object to it, they don't ask him to stop, they are perfectly comfortable standing there in full view of the camera. I mean, sure, it's possible that secretly their reason for entering was that they were being taped. But without a shred of evidence in that direction, I don't see that as very plausible.

As for a warrant: You don't need a warrant if you have probable cause. They could have gotten a warrant, maybe it would even have been better. But that doesn't mean they did anything wrong by not getting one.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister


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