Police misbehavior thread

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Chen
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu May 16, 2013 12:05 pm UTC

The tasing seems like the misbehavior part, but entering the house certainly seem legit. If someone is getting abused its pretty easy to see how they might be forced to respond "everything's ok" to the cops. Asking them to open the door to investigate seems reasonable and then breaking down the door when they refuse also seems pretty reasonable given the circumstances. I'm just picturing a type of situation where they leave to get a warrant and the person flips out that the cops were here and does something even worse to their partner.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Thu May 16, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

Doing further research, it's looking more like the police were, in this case, legally in the clear, at least as regards entering the house. I am definitely very uncomfortable with the immediate progression to use of a taser, though. And it does seem awfully suspicious that they were so unwilling to open the door to the police.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu May 16, 2013 12:40 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:And it does seem awfully suspicious that they were so unwilling to open the door to the police.
No.

Let me say that again:
Spoiler:
NO.


This really needs to stop being used as justification for things like this. Why is it "suspicious" that they didn't want to let police in? Is it because the police had heard that there was domestic violence, maybe? If all they have to go on is the random tip and the refusal of entry...then really, all they have to go on is the random tip. And I NOT comfortable with a system that allows people to troll neighbors AND the police by necessitating police entry into any home referenced in a phonecall about loud noises.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Thu May 16, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

See, that's what my gut generally says, but then people said otherwise and I wasn't sure so I conceded it. I don't have the conviction in my own arguments for this internet discussion stuff.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu May 16, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:This really needs to stop being used as justification for things like this. Why is it "suspicious" that they didn't want to let police in? Is it because the police had heard that there was domestic violence, maybe? If all they have to go on is the random tip and the refusal of entry...then really, all they have to go on is the random tip. And I NOT comfortable with a system that allows people to troll neighbors AND the police by necessitating police entry into any home referenced in a phonecall about loud noises.


Refusal to open the door is not justification for entering, but for a domestic violence call, having both people come to the door and at least show one of them isn't being beaten seems like a fairly reasonable request.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu May 16, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:This really needs to stop being used as justification for things like this. Why is it "suspicious" that they didn't want to let police in? Is it because the police had heard that there was domestic violence, maybe? If all they have to go on is the random tip and the refusal of entry...then really, all they have to go on is the random tip. And I NOT comfortable with a system that allows people to troll neighbors AND the police by necessitating police entry into any home referenced in a phonecall about loud noises.


Refusal to open the door is not justification for entering, but for a domestic violence call, having both people come to the door and at least show one of them isn't being beaten seems like a fairly reasonable request.

Weren't people bashing the police for not appropriately investigating reports of suspicious activity?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=101925

If there's a call about domestic violence, they should investigate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 16, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

Well, the problem then is that if you don't require a warrant for entry for calls of this nature, then anyone's house can be entered based on such a tip. It is fairly trivial to arrange for a tip to be called in.

Additionally, police do not need to leave to get a warrant. They have telephones and the like. Now, if you show up without a warrant, and there's screams from inside the house or something, that's different. But merely saying no to them coming inside is not reasonable cause for them to get suspicious and...come inside. That entirely negates the freedom.

The other case, really, what people were saying is that there WAS reasonable suspicion, not that we need to throw out the warrant protection altogether.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu May 16, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Well, the problem then is that if you don't require a warrant for entry for calls of this nature, then anyone's house can be entered based on such a tip. It is fairly trivial to arrange for a tip to be called in.

Additionally, police do not need to leave to get a warrant. They have telephones and the like. Now, if you show up without a warrant, and there's screams from inside the house or something, that's different. But merely saying no to them coming inside is not reasonable cause for them to get suspicious and...come inside. That entirely negates the freedom.

The other case, really, what people were saying is that there WAS reasonable suspicion, not that we need to throw out the warrant protection altogether.


Let me amend what I stated earlier. Refusal to allow entry may not be justification for forced entry, but refusing to even come to the door and show there's nothing to the allegations they are investigating may in fact constitute justification for forced entry. I'm not even saying they should be forced to let the police into the house. They should however be forced to have to come to the damn door and show the police that there is no visible signs of ongoing violence.

Yes its inconvenient that someone can call in a tip to and "force" you to come answer the door when police come knocking. If such things because spurious and repeated (i.e., harassment) maybe then the police should investigate that. I don't see the possibility of harassment negating the reasonability of opening the door for the police so they can investigate whatever call brought them there. I don't think they'd be justified in searching the house or the like, but at least have the people in question come to the door and make sure none of them are bruised and bloody.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 16, 2013 2:51 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Yes its inconvenient that someone can call in a tip to and "force" you to come answer the door when police come knocking. If such things because spurious and repeated (i.e., harassment) maybe then the police should investigate that. I don't see the possibility of harassment negating the reasonability of opening the door for the police so they can investigate whatever call brought them there. I don't think they'd be justified in searching the house or the like, but at least have the people in question come to the door and make sure none of them are bruised and bloody.


you seem to have missed the point.

lets try a hypothetical. The police want to dig through the house of Joe Blogs who's attended one too many protests about something, say, police corruption. They get an "Anonymous Tip" from a "Neighbor" and suddenly Joe Blogs doesn't have any 4th amendment rights any more.

If he doesn't open the door they can just come right on in and beat the fuck out of him because that's "suspicious".

If he does open the door then an officer "smelled cannabis" when he opened the door.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Enokh » Thu May 16, 2013 3:56 pm UTC

While I understand the idea that rights are to be protected, what does "waiting outside to get a warrant" actually add to that situation? The Police still able to enter the house based off of an anonymous tip in that scenario.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Thu May 16, 2013 4:07 pm UTC

What's the point of warrants at all?
Separation of powers.

They'd have to convince the judge that it's justified.
perhaps a judge would tell them to bugger off and not give them a warrant.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri May 17, 2013 12:31 am UTC

Chen wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:This really needs to stop being used as justification for things like this. Why is it "suspicious" that they didn't want to let police in? Is it because the police had heard that there was domestic violence, maybe? If all they have to go on is the random tip and the refusal of entry...then really, all they have to go on is the random tip. And I NOT comfortable with a system that allows people to troll neighbors AND the police by necessitating police entry into any home referenced in a phonecall about loud noises.


Refusal to open the door is not justification for entering, but for a domestic violence call, having both people come to the door and at least show one of them isn't being beaten seems like a fairly reasonable request.
And refusing to grant that request seems like a fairly reasonable response.

Tell me if THIS seems reasonable:
"Hello. Someone said there was yelling coming from this house. We don't know who or why. We'd like to talk to you about the yelling that may or may not have been coming from this house. If you don't want to talk to us about the yelling, we're going to kick down your door and come in. We'd like you to assume as submissive a position as possible before we do that. If you don't want to assume such a position, we will fucking tazer you, and then we will talk once you've finished pissing yourself and convulsing."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Woopate » Sat May 18, 2013 8:54 am UTC

I'm thinking everyone has so far agreed that the tazering clearly and obviously constitutes misbehaviour. Following what I believe is being suggested by those who say they should have at least come to the door, that should sound more like this:

"We have received a report of loud noises coming from this house that may have originated from domestic violence. We will not search your house, nor are we legally empowered to do so without a warrant. But we must speak with you. Please come to your door or we will break the door to speak with you (and pay for it's timely repair)."

I think domestic violence laws are quite unenforceable unless this power is available to the police.

I know down in the US it's different, where opening a car door has been qualified as a submission for a search before, and that many many people would equally open their door for a gang member as a cop. BUT HOW THE FUCK ELSE DO WE CATCH PEOPLE BEING HELD PRISONER INSIDE THEIR OWN HOME!?


EDIT: Sorry for shouting.

EDIT2: I also think this power needs to be separated for a search warrant. I do not want the same power that enables cops to speak to me to enable them to search my home.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat May 18, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

Double posting is bad and you should feel bad. Triple posting is double-bad.
Carlington wrote:Doing further research, it's looking more like the police were, in this case, legally in the clear, at least as regards entering the house. I am definitely very uncomfortable with the immediate progression to use of a taser, though. And it does seem awfully ]suspicious that they were so unwilling to open the door to the police.


Yes, they were probably justified in entering, on exigent circumstances.

And given the demeanor (which boils down to, "We got RIGHTS pig!") it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the residents assaulted or battered the police, which would justify tasing. The video isn't exactly clear as to what happened around that time.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat May 18, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:While I understand the idea that rights are to be protected, what does "waiting outside to get a warrant" actually add to that situation? The Police still able to enter the house based off of an anonymous tip in that scenario.


In domestic violence situations, victims may die while police wait.

It's a judgement call, but abusers are often expert in manipulation, of officers as well as the victims. (My Dad was a lovely case in point.) Such as: Loudly, to the officer, "Move along officer, nothing to see here;" then in harsh whisper to the victim, "You'd better tell him you're fine." So domestic abuse training emphasizes seeing the victim and talking to the victim out of earshot of the supposed abuser (to avoid "editorials", that threatening look, and/or fear of retaliation).

You can't do that through a door. So if the situation warrants, that involves either the people coming out, or the officers going in; and it is left to the officers to decide if the situation is exigent enough to justify forcible entry.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat May 18, 2013 5:13 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:I'm thinking everyone has so far agreed that the tazering clearly and obviously constitutes misbehaviour.


I don't.

To me, the video is not clear enough to be sure exactly what happened. And "those" people who most loudly and unreasonably shout, "We gots RIGHTS, pigs!" also seem to be distressingly prone to unreasoning violence. Not to mention lying about what happened afterward.

(Yes, I have Rights, and I know them, but I can assert them without screaming ungrammatical epithets and battering an officer.)

It doesn't take much violence to be sufficient to justify force (such as tazing). For example, spitting on an officer is battery. (Actually, spitting on anyone is battery, if the contact is unwanted.)

All it takes is spit or a shove to constitute justification for tazing, and I just can't make out enough details from the video to be sure what happened. Reasonable doubt definitely applies.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby juststrange » Sat May 18, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

I'll just leave this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance_in_United_States_law

An emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect, or destruction of evidence. There is no ready litmus test for determining whether such circumstances exist, and in each case the extraordinary situation must be measured by the facts known by officials.[1]

Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts


Bolded parts mine. Look, it was a judgement call, and sometimes they get those wrong. The best thing to do if you think the police are misbehaving, and not beating you in the process, is to be police, keep your mouth shut, and call your lawyer. You do yourself no favors being belligerent, legal or otherwise.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat May 18, 2013 10:51 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
Carlington wrote:Doing further research, it's looking more like the police were, in this case, legally in the clear, at least as regards entering the house. I am definitely very uncomfortable with the immediate progression to use of a taser, though. And it does seem awfully suspicious that they were so unwilling to open the door to the police.


Yes, they were probably justified in entering, on exigent circumstances.

And given the demeanor (which boils down to, "We got RIGHTS pig!") it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the residents assaulted or battered the police, which would justify tasing. The video isn't exactly clear as to what happened around that time.


A believe in rights does not indicate that someone is inherently violent, even if this belief has to be restated for the police when they are forgetful. And you can pretty clearly see the officer who tases the guy taking the video isn't in any danger. There's no indication that assault or battering of police happened at all, and you certainly can't see that on camera.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Woopate » Sun May 19, 2013 1:36 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
Woopate wrote:I'm thinking everyone has so far agreed that the tazering clearly and obviously constitutes misbehaviour.


I don't.

To me, the video is not clear enough to be sure exactly what happened. And "those" people who most loudly and unreasonably shout, "We gots RIGHTS, pigs!" also seem to be distressingly prone to unreasoning violence. Not to mention lying about what happened afterward.



I might be mistaken. When did they lie about what happened? When did they use unreasoning violence? I don't remember reading that either of those things happened. "We got rights, PIGS!" is neither a lie nor violence. Poorly thought out and needlessly aggressive sure. The tazering in that video sure seems like better evidence of unreasoning violence. It may be that the cameraman pulled a knife or had a gun in his other hand or something, but we don't know that for sure. We're being judgemental on the internet here. Incomplete information is what we have, and if we didn't form opinions on that incomplete information, we wouldn't be discussing anything at all.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby engr » Sun May 19, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Weren't people bashing the police for not appropriately investigating reports of suspicious activity?


Hey now, let's be reasonable. In cases like these, police should come, knock on a door, ask if there is a crime in progress, and only if the answer is "yes", they can obtain a warrant...

Spoiler:
"911, what's your emergency?"
"Someone is breaking into my house! Help!"
"Sir, I need you to calm down. What is your address?"
"123 Main Street. Please, help!"
"And your name?"
"John Liberto. Why does my name matter?"
"So, Mr. Liberto, you are saying someone is trying to break into your house. How do you know that?"
"I can hear them trying to force my lock open!"
"So you expect us to come and arrest the person doing it?"
"Obviously, what else? Please, hurry up!"
"Hold on a second, Mr. Liberto. How do you know that this is not one of your friends or family members?"
"What? I invited no one! I live alone!"
"How can we believe you? You expect us to come to this house, and arrest a person trying to open a door, just because you said so? How do we know this is not their house? Like that university professor in California?"
"Oh god, are you stupid? Ask them for their IDs!"
"Wait a second, Mr. Liberto. Aren't you the one who wrote a letter to the editor last month? "Nowheresville Bee", if I recall correctly?"
"What?"
"And in this editorial you criticized the police department for violating citizens' civil rights by asking them to show their IDs?"
"But that's... that's different!"
"We are trying to help you, Mr. Liberto, but you aren't making it easy for us. I ask again, how do we know if it's really your house? I reckon you also criticized police for breaking into houses when someone prank-called 911 and said there were hostages inside. How do we know this isn't a prank?"
"I am John Liberto! I live in 123 Main Street! I own this house! I am calling from my phone! Oh man, just check your records!"
"We'd love to, Mr. Liberto. But I think I remember you ranting how police has too much info on the citizens, and how all these databases are unconstitutional, so out of respect for your privacy..."
"Oh God, they are starting to break the door! Please, please, come before it's too late! Just send someone out here, they will see what's going on!"
"Well, we'll see what we can do. In another 20-25 minutes..."
"What?! 25 minutes? Your station is right down the street!"
"Well, sir, you rightfully pointed out that it takes police too long to show up to poor neighborhoods, while if a rich white person calls them, they are right there. So we decided to listen to your recommendations and adjust our response times..."
"But I am Hispanic! I'm not even white!"
"Black Hispanic?"
"Uhh.. no.."
"Ah, then you are white Hispanic. You still got the white privilege, then".
"What privilege? How does it matter? They are breaking into my house!"
"See how privileged you are, sir? You have a house! And have you ever thought why they are breaking into it, sir? Perhaps, it is because they are poor and have no other options to feed their families?"
"They can get a job!"
"Ah, it's not so easy. Discrimination can make it difficult..."
"Look, OK, OK, maybe they are poor and stuff, but it's still a crime to steal from someone!"
"Is it, Mr. Liberto? Who determines what is a crime and what isn't? "Crime" and "criminal" are nothing but social constructs made up by the powerful and rich, Mr. Liberto. You should know. Don't you teach sociology?"
"But it's the law! You swore to enforce it!"
"Yes, Mr. Liberto. It is the law. But didn't you write a letter to our police department calling us not to enforce drug laws because they are unjust?"
"But that's completely different! It's a victimless crime! Breaking an entering is not victimless! I am the victim!"
"Are you? Let me ask you, sir: who is a real victim - a person who is so poor he is forced to commit a crime, or..."
"Look, please, it's not the time for a philosophical debate. Just come and arrest them, for God's sake!"
"First of all, Mr. Liberto, I must ask you not to use the "G" word. 911 is a public, tax-funded, service, and we must not mention religion here. Second of all, it's not as easy as you think."
"What? Why?"
"You see, this month we arrested 20 robbers, 5 carjackers, 5 drug dealers, and only one embezzler and one identity thief. So, overall we have 30 people arrested for "minority crimes" and 2 for "white crimes". The disparate impact is evident, so we must suspend all further arrests until..."
"But you can detain them! Oh my, the door is giving..."
"You mean, without a warrant? Based on just your call? That seems like a police state, Mr. Liberto."
"The door is breaking!!! Aaaahhhhh!!!!"
"Sir, calm down. The police is on the way. I know that you are afraid to open the door to police officers, since they may be impersonators. You will recognize our officers by the pink uniforms and blue styrofoam batons..."
"What?? Pink uniforms? Styrofoam? Don't you have pistols?"
"Pistols are meant to kill, sir, and police's duty is to prevent crime, not to kill criminals. Tasers and pepper spray are inhumane, so we decided to go with styrofoam batons. And as far as the color of uniforms, well, we took your complaint about the intimidating para-military look of our police officers seriously. Also, it's breast cancer awareness month."
"OH MY GOD THEY ARE IN THE HOUSE! THEY HAVE KNIVES!!!"
"There is no need to scream, sir, the police will be here in a few minutes. We won't use lights and sirens, since we respect your noise complaints. Mr. Liberto, you may hang up now, and have a nice day!"
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Woopate » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 am UTC

I always love a good romp in the straw.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Aikanaro » Mon May 20, 2013 2:44 am UTC

I always wonder, has there been a case of the police attempting to break into a home (for presumably legal reasons), and the owner hiding and calling 911? What does the dispatcher tell them?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Mon May 20, 2013 4:26 am UTC

"Please stay on the line, sir. Someone will be with you shortly..."

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Fire Brns » Mon May 20, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

I was wondering about the legality of police even entering with a warrant. In all the cop shows they are like "We have a warrant" and then barrel past the home owner. Can you legally ask the police to wait outside until you can look at the title of the paper and see that it does in fact say warrant? And see that a judge signed it?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Mon May 20, 2013 2:20 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:All it takes is spit or a shove to constitute justification for tazing,
I disagree. Officers should use the minimum amount of force required to make the arrest, which definitely does not serve as a blanket justification for tasing every old woman with a chew habit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 20, 2013 2:25 pm UTC

You spend a lifetime being paranoid that one day, that one sick bastard you weren't expecting, is going to mean you won't get to walk your daughter down the aisle, and you too will be a bit trigger happy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Mon May 20, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

If you're afraid of being a cop, don't be a cop. It's been pointed out in this thread that it's not a particularly dangerous job, as jobs go.

If you have an irrational fear that makes you terrible at your job, you should be fired. Especially if being terrible at your job puts others' lives at risk.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 20, 2013 2:39 pm UTC

Oh I agree, but solving the problem involves understanding the problem.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon May 20, 2013 4:40 pm UTC

More than once I had uniformed Police in my house.

One time I was alone and doing dishes.
I have no idea what I was thinking about.

I noticed movement out of the corner of my eye.
When I looked up there were two large men in uniform watching me do dishes.

I turned around and asked them, "What are you doing here?"
They said, "We got a call."

I wanted to know what The Call said and who made The Call.
That was confidential. They were not much trouble. Still.

They didn't knock. Why knock? A crime in progress does not allow for time to knock.
The Police were in my house a lot of times. It was becoming unnerving.

Sometimes they knocked, sometimes they didn't.
The visits in the Middle of the Night were particularly unnerving.

Yes. Those guys are in Uniform.
The uniform not only identifies them as 'special' to others the Uniform is an identity that person puts on.
Also, Uniformed personal are encouraged by fellow uniformed personal.

Spoiler:
Some of those old poems still reflect human truths.

If you have One boy; You have a boy.
If you have Two boys; You have half a boy.
If you have Three boys; You have no boys at all
.

It seems to be true for any group of people.
The word boy can be replaced by Snotty Girl and it still works.

It is, kind of, funny.
Three snotty girls will turn on one another faster than three bad boys will.


I was asked by an attorney, "Why didn't you report it?'
Well; Who to report it to?
I did go to the Police Station.
I was held for several hours and no one took a report from me.
What a waste of a day. Sitting in the police station, waiting for nothing to happen.

The Old Truths remain the same. Most victims are not heard from.
How do any of these things make the Media?
In what Universe do you get to keep photos and telephones?
Where do you people get the clips?

Was that not the Lesson of the Blare Witches?
It is possible with high tech to make it look like low tech. Right?
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cemper93
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cemper93 » Mon May 20, 2013 5:31 pm UTC

I was wondering about the legality of police even entering with a warrant. In all the cop shows they are like "We have a warrant" and then barrel past the home owner. Can you legally ask the police to wait outside until you can look at the title of the paper and see that it does in fact say warrant? And see that a judge signed it?

In any reasonable jurisdiction you can. At least here in Germany, you can even let them wait outside until you have read the whole thing. Which is a good thing to do, because sometimes the warrant explicitly says which rooms the police is allowed to search and you can then legally deny them access to any rooms which are not on the warrant. Oh, and: if the police ask you whether they can take something as evidence, always say no. Then they'll have to confiscate it and you can get it back in 6 months rather than 6 years.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby omgryebread » Mon May 20, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:I was wondering about the legality of police even entering with a warrant. In all the cop shows they are like "We have a warrant" and then barrel past the home owner. Can you legally ask the police to wait outside until you can look at the title of the paper and see that it does in fact say warrant? And see that a judge signed it?
It depends. Usually they do have to wait outside. You could presumably even call the police and ask to verify the badge number of the cop in question.

That being said, police are allowed to not do that if they have a "reasonable suspicion" that they would either be in danger if they knocked or that evidence would be destroyed. This effectively means they never have to knock if they don't want to. Even worse: If, somehow, the police were found to have acted unlawfully by executing a warrant without knocking, the evidence would not fall under the exclusionary rule.

The idea of course, and it is correct, is that the warrant was permission to search. The search itself was lawful, as was finding the evidence. That makes sense from a legal theory standpoint, but it means there is absolutely no deterrent to executing a no-knock warrant.

Technically the cops would be guilty of breaking and entering. But good luck finding a prosecutor to press those charges.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon May 20, 2013 10:06 pm UTC

cemper93 wrote:
I was wondering about the legality of police even entering with a warrant. In all the cop shows they are like "We have a warrant" and then barrel past the home owner. Can you legally ask the police to wait outside until you can look at the title of the paper and see that it does in fact say warrant? And see that a judge signed it?

In any reasonable jurisdiction you can. At least here in Germany, you can even let them wait outside until you have read the whole thing. Which is a good thing to do, because sometimes the warrant explicitly says which rooms the police is allowed to search and you can then legally deny them access to any rooms which are not on the warrant. Oh, and: if the police ask you whether they can take something as evidence, always say no. Then they'll have to confiscate it and you can get it back in 6 months rather than 6 years.


Seems entirely fair for a warrant system. I'd be satisfied to have that even without the room by room specificity(which doesn't usually exist in the US, usually they just do the whole house). Germany hasn't disintigrated into pandamonium, so clearly, such a system isn't necessarily a huge problem.

No-knock warrants are particularly problematic because, in practice, it's an escalating measure. Obviously, you can't expect them, so, say you have a dog...does your dog head towards the door when someone opens it? Remarkably common. Police then shoot the dog. You get people surprised, screaming, thinking it's burglars...it's just generally making a situation into a mess when it need not be one. Now, it's one thing if there's a clear and present danger...say, hostage scenario or the like...but "someone might flush pot down the toilet" isn't really a great reason to blow in doors with an armed entry team.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Tue May 21, 2013 12:09 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:No-knock warrants are particularly problematic because, in practice, it's an escalating measure. Obviously, you can't expect them, so, say you have a dog...does your dog head towards the door when someone opens it? Remarkably common. Police then shoot the dog. You get people surprised, screaming, thinking it's burglars...it's just generally making a situation into a mess when it need not be one. Now, it's one thing if there's a clear and present danger...say, hostage scenario or the like...but "someone might flush pot down the toilet" isn't really a great reason to blow in doors with an armed entry team.


Nevermind the fact that, if the police come to your door and knock with a warrant, you can, for example, point out that they have the wrong house.

Harder to do when they kick the door in, flashbang your children to death, murder your pets, and pistol-whip your confused grandfather into a vegetative state. It tends to be hard for them to hear over all that.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue May 21, 2013 2:38 am UTC

Police should be reasonable and professional.
The People should be reasonable.

Are the Police scared Shitless of The People?
Yes. I have met some of The People.
Fear is a sane responds.

Have Americans become so damn difficult to deal with that deadly force is reasonable?

Spoiler:
I have heard it said; It was never serous. "Put that guy out of my misery."
Has it become serous? Did The People bring this on themselves?
We are now guilty until we can prove our innocence?

I heard one guy, not so long ago, say, "They all 'did' something. Hold 'em until we find it."
I disagreed with that way of Practicing. I still do. If we go in offering help we may get a better result.

Of course, what is the Result we are aiming at?
Money for Jails? Money for Convictions? More money for longer sentences?
What are the Results we are aiming at?

The People are glued to the screen.
When will the Next Man Hunt happen?
Who was Donner? Old news?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 21, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No-knock warrants are particularly problematic because, in practice, it's an escalating measure. Obviously, you can't expect them, so, say you have a dog...does your dog head towards the door when someone opens it? Remarkably common. Police then shoot the dog. You get people surprised, screaming, thinking it's burglars...it's just generally making a situation into a mess when it need not be one. Now, it's one thing if there's a clear and present danger...say, hostage scenario or the like...but "someone might flush pot down the toilet" isn't really a great reason to blow in doors with an armed entry team.


Nevermind the fact that, if the police come to your door and knock with a warrant, you can, for example, point out that they have the wrong house.

Harder to do when they kick the door in, flashbang your children to death, murder your pets, and pistol-whip your confused grandfather into a vegetative state. It tends to be hard for them to hear over all that.


Yeah. Look, if I made a "mistake" and did that, they'd lock me away, and rightfully so. If they do it...you *may* get an apology. Maybe.

I figure it'll probably continue until someone defends themselves successfully, and is upheld in court. Precedent for self-defense against misguided cop actions is actually pretty good...but the thing is, this is very hard to do in practice. The whole dynamic entry system is designed to avoid that, and dead victims generally don't sue, and apparently, dead dogs, injuries, property damage, actual dead citizens, etc are not enough for the system to change, so it seems we need a truly horrible incident for people to actually end the practice. Unfortunate.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Tue May 21, 2013 12:49 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If you're afraid of being a cop, don't be a cop. It's been pointed out in this thread that it's not a particularly dangerous job, as jobs go.

If you have an irrational fear that makes you terrible at your job, you should be fired. Especially if being terrible at your job puts others' lives at risk.

Yep, taxi drivers are about 4 times more likely to get murdered on the job (thereby not getting to walk their daughter down the aisle )than cops but if taxi drivers were as quick to whip out guns and murder anyone who makes them feel nervous then there'd be uproar(and a terrible smell on the streets from all the corpses).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Tue May 21, 2013 3:49 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Belial wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No-knock warrants are particularly problematic because, in practice, it's an escalating measure. Obviously, you can't expect them, so, say you have a dog...does your dog head towards the door when someone opens it? Remarkably common. Police then shoot the dog. You get people surprised, screaming, thinking it's burglars...it's just generally making a situation into a mess when it need not be one. Now, it's one thing if there's a clear and present danger...say, hostage scenario or the like...but "someone might flush pot down the toilet" isn't really a great reason to blow in doors with an armed entry team.


Nevermind the fact that, if the police come to your door and knock with a warrant, you can, for example, point out that they have the wrong house.

Harder to do when they kick the door in, flashbang your children to death, murder your pets, and pistol-whip your confused grandfather into a vegetative state. It tends to be hard for them to hear over all that.


Yeah. Look, if I made a "mistake" and did that, they'd lock me away, and rightfully so. If they do it...you *may* get an apology. Maybe.

I figure it'll probably continue until someone defends themselves successfully, and is upheld in court. Precedent for self-defense against misguided cop actions is actually pretty good...but the thing is, this is very hard to do in practice. The whole dynamic entry system is designed to avoid that, and dead victims generally don't sue, and apparently, dead dogs, injuries, property damage, actual dead citizens, etc are not enough for the system to change, so it seems we need a truly horrible incident for people to actually end the practice. Unfortunate.

I don't see that happening. You're not going to shoot 5 guys dead before you realize it's cops. Once you realize it's cops, how are you going to deescalate the situation without getting killed?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue May 21, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:I don't see that happening. You're not going to shoot 5 guys dead before you realize it's cops. Once you realize it's cops, how are you going to deescalate the situation without getting killed?


Happened here in Quebec. Granted he only shot two officers (one died), but he was acquitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Parasiris

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Tue May 21, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Well, there's a thread question answered.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Tue May 21, 2013 4:59 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Роберт wrote:I don't see that happening. You're not going to shoot 5 guys dead before you realize it's cops. Once you realize it's cops, how are you going to deescalate the situation without getting killed?


Happened here in Quebec. Granted he only shot two officers (one died), but he was acquitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Parasiris

I didn't know cops had guns in Canada. :mrgreen:

Seriously, though. It might happen in the U.S. It's not unthinkable. I mean, the Boston cops managed to not kill the Boston bombers. I was pleasantly surprised at that.
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