Police misbehavior thread

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Coyne
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:17 am UTC

Records: Ex-police officer suspected in Wisconsin suitcase deaths resigned to avoid discipline

Suspected, nothing! According to the article, he told a detective that, "...he killed the [two] women accidentally during rough sex and stored their bodies for months in his home and car before dumping them."

Seems he had a habit of using the badge to pressure "numerous" women into dating him. A prostitute had complained that he knocked her down (he countered that she was stealing from him so I'm sure her complaint was ignored, "NHI" you know). Probably the best complaint was the woman who claimed she'd moved eight times in ten years to avoid him, but he always came up with her new unlisted number and address.

Police officers who abuse are the worst possible abusers.

Punishment? If a peon had done that, the charge would have been two first degree murder counts. For the officer: He's resigned to avoid disciplinary action and they charged him with two counts of "hiding a corpse". If he is convicted he could get 25 years consecutive...but I bet his sentence is suspended (prison would be so hard on him). Always assuming of course that a jury actually deigns to convict him.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:25 am UTC

The Article wrote:Authorities have said they expect homicide charges to come in the counties where the women died.


So I think he will face murder charges.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:35 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
The Article wrote:Authorities have said they expect homicide charges to come in the counties where the women died.


So I think he will face murder charges.

Well, maybe so. But since he confessed before July 3, one does have to wonder what the "other counties" are waiting for. He's been ordered to stand trial for hiding the corpses; it seems to me that if they go through with that trial it would endanger any other homicide prosecution. I'm not certain, but these seem to me to relate to the same act: If so, double jeopardy would apply and he could never be tried for the murders.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:13 pm UTC

So, this is kind of the opposite of police misbehaviour, but seems like the best place to put this story.

They're looking at implementing a new code of ethics for police officers in England and Wales, with it meaning they could be punished for being rude to the public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28277417
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:42 am UTC

Angua wrote:So, this is kind of the opposite of police misbehaviour, but seems like the best place to put this story.

They're looking at implementing a new code of ethics for police officers in England and Wales, with it meaning they could be punished for being rude to the public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28277417

Thank you.
That is Beautiful.

Now; I believe with all me that the majority of the Police in England will be so Polite an American may not understand them.
How do we convince the Civilians to be Polite, too?

Shooting a man five times in the chest at point blank range is one thing.
Keeping a cool head while some AssHole continues to be an AssHole is hard.

When the Police meet that standard, they have more than earned their pay.
They have also earned our Respect.

If we would be Easy...If we would, just, be easy.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:59 pm UTC

Angua wrote:So, this is kind of the opposite of police misbehaviour, but seems like the best place to put this story.

They're looking at implementing a new code of ethics for police officers in England and Wales, with it meaning they could be punished for being rude to the public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28277417


IMO, a bright spot in an otherwise dark thread is welcome.

And that seems reasonable. Surely most folks would be punished for being rude to customers/bosses. At least, if caught.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:27 pm UTC

I think it's one of those laws that's only on the books for when you piss off the higher ups but they don't have enough evidence of anything else so they book you with that. I've known people to get a decade in prison for illegal possession of a firearm (I volunteered with Teach America; I stuck with the ESL). How do you get a decade for illegal possession? Well, they can't prove you were a drug dealer even though virtually every cop and druggie knows you were (eg, the witnesses don't want to be known as THE snitch), so they get you on the stuff they can.

It goes against what Justice stands for but it works so no one (important) cares, because all those phrases and speeches and so forth are empty rhetoric and people only care about results. If it works while broke...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:21 am UTC

This is a bad idea from bad idea central: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/19/ ... etaliation

Probably most central to it: If any police officer has declared the investigation over, no other police force may investigate. So corruption in local politics? Well, the county or state would be prohibited from investigating.

-Crissa

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:23 am UTC

Two policemen in Fruitland Park Florida have been fired. They were members of the local Klan chapter.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:36 am UTC

Yay, though wasn't there a supreme court case saying firing someone for that sort of thing alone wasn't enough of a reason? Freedom of association and all. Of course that might be a state case, rather than federal.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:46 am UTC

Not if the group is known for criminal connections.

Freedom of association is not a blanket protection. Probably should be, but...

-Crissa

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:26 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I think it's one of those laws that's only on the books for when you piss off the higher ups but they don't have enough evidence of anything else so they book you with that.


Nice theory but I find it unlikely in this case. This is ordinary rank-and-file officers - the police union if you like - that has come out overwhelmingly in favor of this.

I have a huge amount of respect for beat officers in the UK. They routinely vote to operate with one hand tied behind their back because they genuinely appear to believe that the benefit of having the general public's respect and support is paramount (the most well known example being how they repeatedly vote to police unarmed).

Contrast with the US where it's practically a meme to say nothing at all to an officer during a stop since the perception is it's 'us vs them' and the officer will take any opportunity possible to screw you over.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Yay, though wasn't there a supreme court case saying firing someone for that sort of thing alone wasn't enough of a reason? Freedom of association and all. Of course that might be a state case, rather than federal.


It certainly should be insufficient reason to fire someone.

Now, they probably WERE horrible people, because klan, but yknow...some degree of proving that should be required.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PolakoVoador » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:22 pm UTC

Crissa wrote:This is a bad idea from bad idea central: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/19/ ... etaliation

Probably most central to it: If any police officer has declared the investigation over, no other police force may investigate. So corruption in local politics? Well, the county or state would be prohibited from investigating.

-Crissa


Totalitarian governments take note: this is a nice law to copy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:45 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:
Crissa wrote:This is a bad idea from bad idea central: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/19/ ... etaliation

Probably most central to it: If any police officer has declared the investigation over, no other police force may investigate. So corruption in local politics? Well, the county or state would be prohibited from investigating.

-Crissa


Totalitarian governments take note: this is a nice law to copy.

Didn't this one already come up a few pages ago?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:35 am UTC

Hmm, yes, sorry, it was.

-Crissa

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:45 am UTC

Remember the woman who was beaten for walking on the freeway? Well, now CHP has seized her medical records...with a warrant.

That strikes me as really odd, because you'd normally use a subpeona. Apparenlty they didn't want to allow an advance opportunity to quash.

Looks like full damage control mode to me. My best guess is that they're looking for proof she was on a drug so they can charge her with being under the influence (justification). Other guesses include seeking evidence to prove falsification in the lawsuit against CHP; seeking communications with the doctor/lawyer so they can make her look bad; or possibly simply to confiscate important evidence against CHP, so it can be lost. ("You know, a funny thing happened: We totally misplaced those files.")
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:49 am UTC

I'm pretty sure the hospital would have given copies of the files, and not the actual records themselves, so they won't be able to say they lost them. Especially as she's still there.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:27 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I'm pretty sure the hospital would have given copies of the files, and not the actual records themselves, so they won't be able to say they lost them. Especially as she's still there.

You and I don't know.

You are working with National Health.
We are working with something else.

We don't know.
Have you ever heard a person say, "It was the not knowing that bothered me." ?
I have.

What do you think of that?
You are a part of a large system that you trust and it trusts you.

That is what I think of when I think of the NHS.
Of course, there are mistakes and not all Medical Personal are Great.

But; The people trust you and you shoulder the responsibility.
Somehow, That makes sense to me. This doesn't.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:21 am UTC

Found the lawsuit Marlene Pinnock versus (many). Not impressed with the writing, which is worse than my scratchings. (Marlene Pinnock was the woman beaten by the CHP officer in my last message.)

It was a felony warrant that they executed at the medical center; that is, a warrant seeking evidence that might indicate someone (no indication of name) has committed a felony. Along with all the medical records, they confiscated her shredded clothing from the incident.

Puzzling item: They seized a list of her visitors in the hospital along with the rest. Why? Maybe they think someone is bringing her drugs?

Anyway, it is hard to see how the medical records--including communications to/from the doctor, and visitor list--could be used against the officer, which suggests they are going after her, either for proof of some crime or just embarrassing facts. Best guess: proof she was drunk or on drugs.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:24 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:Found the lawsuit Marlene Pinnock versus (many). Not impressed with the writing, which is worse than my scratchings. (Marlene Pinnock was the woman beaten by the CHP officer in my last message.)

It was a felony warrant that they executed at the medical center; that is, a warrant seeking evidence that might indicate someone (no indication of name) has committed a felony. Along with all the medical records, they confiscated her shredded clothing from the incident.

Puzzling item: They seized a list of her visitors in the hospital along with the rest. Why? Maybe they think someone is bringing her drugs?

Anyway, it is hard to see how the medical records--including communications to/from the doctor, and visitor list--could be used against the officer, which suggests they are going after her, either for proof of some crime or just embarrassing facts. Best guess: proof she was drunk or on drugs.

That is truly dark news.
I saw the clip.

We do not know that man was a Police Officer.
The document you left does not identify the man in the clip by name.

The document does not name him by name.
Any one can put on a Uniform.
Any one can take a Uniform off.

Truly Dark News.
Who was that man?
Where did he go to School?

We see such Violence, everyday of our Screens.
Do we think it is Normal?

Or; Mindless entertainment?

1 CIVIL RIGHTS COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Caree Harper SBN 219048 LAW OFFICES OF CAREE HARPER The Howard Hughes Center 6601 Center Drive West Suite 500 Los Angeles, CA 90045 (213) 386-5078 Tel. Email:
inyourdefense@aol.com
John L. Burris SBN 69888 LAW OFFICES OF JOHN L. BURRIS 7767 Oakport St. Suite 1120 Oakland, CA 94621 (510) 839-5200 Tel. Email:
john.burris@johnburrislaw.com
Attorneys for PLAINTIFF MARLENE M. PINNOCK
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT IN THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
MARLENE M. PINNOCK, PLAINTIFF, vs.
CHP OFC. “JOHN DOE”
, CHP COMMISSIONER JOSEPH FARROW, individually & in their official capacities as peace officers & DOES 2-10 individually & in their official capacities as peace officers


The man in the Uniform is named John Doe?
Not a common name.
We should be able to look at his Facebook Page.

You can look at her Facebook Page.
You can not look at His.

How it there Justice in That?
Is he protected? By who?

An Officer or an Actor or a Hired Thug in a Uniform?
There may be a special Rule for people that do that.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:44 pm UTC

addams wrote:I saw the clip.

We do not know that man was a Police Officer.
The document you left does not identify the man in the clip by name.

The document does not name him by name.

[...]

The man in the Uniform is named John Doe?


Interesting you should bring that up. I went through around 20 different news articles before finally finding a link to the lawsuit. The officer has not been named by CHP at this time. That's why placeholder "John Doe" is named in the lawsuit, because they don't actually know who they are suing yet.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:51 am UTC

Four New York policemen are on modified duty. They could not manage to arrest a man for selling untaxed cigarettes without killing him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/nypd-arrest-death_n_5604208.html

The EMTs did not help. They just loaded him into an ambulance so a doctor could determine he was dead.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:41 am UTC

Crissa wrote:Hmm, yes, sorry, it was.

-Crissa

This brings up one problem with Threads and Conversations like this one.
We ooh and agh, we don't do a Damned Thing about any of it.

Should we be entertained by how Horrible that is, then run off for the Next Tittalating Tidbit?

The John Doe case is disturbing.
Some of those JackAsses are Police.
Some may not be Police.

Well?...No public oversight.
An Adversarial Relationship.
Formalized Unquestionable Authority.


Any AssHole can Act like an AssHole in a Uniform.
It is easy for a person to dress like an Authority Figure.

Who asks The Questions?
Not you and Not me.

Did anyone Really Question that Rule the first time it came up in the Thread?
It must seem so far away and alien to most of us. Not to me.

Maybe, to you, today.
That can change so fast even a Smarty Pants like Ya' All might be surprised.

What were our American Goals?
Do you Remember the Four Freedoms?

We never have reached the goal for everyone.

It seem so strange to me.
Our new idea of Equality is not for the Down Trodden to be Lifted Up.
But; For Every-fucking-One to be Equally Terrified and Helpless.

The idea that No One Dare Question a Ruling is Abhorrent to me.
When I came from, people were still questioning Rulings Nero made.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:44 am UTC

It seems rather irrelevant whether she was intoxicated at the point that an officer is punching her repeatedly in the face.

-Crissa

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby EMTP » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:18 am UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:Four New York policemen are on modified duty. They could not manage to arrest a man for selling untaxed cigarettes without killing him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/nypd-arrest-death_n_5604208.html

The EMTs did not help. They just loaded him into an ambulance so a doctor could determine he was dead.


The article is about the medical providers, not the cops. I've seen the same mistake all over Twitter -- the journalist wasn't clear.

There is nothing to be done to help someone who has been strangled to death (I'm not sure why, if they patient was pulseless, they didn't code him, but a) There may have been several valid reasons not to do that; b) We don't know what they did once they had him in the ambulance, and, c) Coding someone who has been strangled to death and been dead for several minutes is extremely unlikely to deliver any good outcome.) The claim that the EMTs "did nothing" is baseless and inflammatory. EMTs -- I'm speaking from extensive personal experience here -- have some important medical interventions at their disposal, but by far the most important thing they do for their patients is to get them to definitive care. Getting the patient to the doctor is not "nothing," it's usually the most important thing.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:25 am UTC

In many jurisdictions, EMTs are not allowed to record someone as dead. They have to wait for a doctor to make that determination.

But similarly, what they can do for someone that appears dead is limited.

-Crissa

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:35 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:Four New York policemen are on modified duty. They could not manage to arrest a man for selling untaxed cigarettes without killing him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/nypd-arrest-death_n_5604208.html

The EMTs did not help. They just loaded him into an ambulance so a doctor could determine he was dead.


The article is about the medical providers, not the cops. I've seen the same mistake all over Twitter -- the journalist wasn't clear.

There is nothing to be done to help someone who has been strangled to death (I'm not sure why, if they patient was pulseless, they didn't code him, but a) There may have been several valid reasons not to do that; b) We don't know what they did once they had him in the ambulance, and, c) Coding someone who has been strangled to death and been dead for several minutes is extremely unlikely to deliver any good outcome.) The claim that the EMTs "did nothing" is baseless and inflammatory. EMTs -- I'm speaking from extensive personal experience here -- have some important medical interventions at their disposal, but by far the most important thing they do for their patients is to get them to definitive care. Getting the patient to the doctor is not "nothing," it's usually the most important thing.

It is also the responsibility of the EMT's to protect the Patient in Life and in Death.
If at any time the Medical Personal behaved in a way that was inconstant with a Sleeping Patient who's Mother is present,
Then those Medical Personal did not do their Job.

EMT's often work with Helpless People.
The Dead are Helpless.

The way we treat the Dead says nothing about the Dead.
It says a great deal about us.

People are reassured when they witness Serous Kindness.
People quake at the sight of Indifference to Suffering.

It is a Job.
Just another day on The Job.

For our Patients, this is one of the most important days of their lives.
Sometimes, it is the last day of their lives.

If the Medical Community hold their own to High Standards that is good for EveryOne.
Even if we can't trust the Police, we should be able to trust Medical; Even in Death.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby EMTP » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:45 am UTC

Crissa wrote:In many jurisdictions, EMTs are not allowed to record someone as dead. They have to wait for a doctor to make that determination.

But similarly, what they can do for someone that appears dead is limited.

-Crissa


If I put myself in that crew's shoes, I imagine they may have felt that they were in an unsafe situation with a hostile crowd and may have wanted to get the guy in the rig on the way to the hospital before coding him. That might be completely reasonable and defensible, depending on the environment and the mood of that crowd. Or maybe they thought he had a pulse, and decided to load him and get en route before putting in a line, etc. (In a stressful situation, sometimes you feel your own pulse in your fingers and it's easy to confuse it with the patient's.)

What doesn't scan for me is the idea the medics knew he was dead or dying and did nothing because they just didn't care. That's not how emergency responders are wired. The patient may be or may be thought to be a dirtbag -- in fact, most shot/stabbed/wrecked & seriously hurt patients ARE dirtbags to some extent -- but that, while it may make the burnt-out medic less passionate about your pain control or less polite, doesn't stop them from working hard to save you.

Cases with patients in custody go wrong in a completely different way, when medics don't want to inconvenience their law enforcement colleagues and don't recognize how bad the patient is. There was a case in Oregon where several medics got in trouble for their care of a homeless schziophrenic man who was hurt while being arrested and ultimately died. The medics did a quick exam with the patient in handcuffs, failed to recognize how hurt he was, and allowed them to take him to jail. And he died. That happens (it shouldn't, and I always emphasize to medics I teach the critical importance of thoroughness and care in evaluating patients in custody) but the medics seeing someone dead or dying and just letting it ride? No, I don't see that. For one thing, apart from their own consciences, they aren't stupid and they know that anything they do, or fail to do, with a critically ill/dead person in police custody will be picked apart second by second and any deviations from protocol highlighted.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:07 am UTC

Forgive me if I was unclear. Was writing about the policemen who killed this poor fellow. A better link is here, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=1 The two policemen have been placed on modified duty.

The EMTs are volunteers from a nearby hospital. The did not live up to what I expect of a standard of care. But then again, I am an Army man and I will never give up on patient until a doctor tells me to lay off. Their behavior was sufficiently egregious to provoke an investigation. But all of that is off-topic.

The police killed him for selling untaxed smokes.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:31 am UTC

Yet again, use of violence against a minor infraction.

What is modified duty? If that means "charged for murder", the wording is a bit complicated.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:Four New York policemen are on modified duty. They could not manage to arrest a man for selling untaxed cigarettes without killing him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/nypd-arrest-death_n_5604208.html

The EMTs did not help. They just loaded him into an ambulance so a doctor could determine he was dead.


DC had a somewhat similar incident a bit ago, dunno if we talked about it. Long story short, dude had a heart attack across the street from the fire station, manned by five folks with emergency training. Pled with 'em for help until he died. Now, of course, everyone's trying to assign blame.

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addams
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:Four New York policemen are on modified duty. They could not manage to arrest a man for selling untaxed cigarettes without killing him. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/nypd-arrest-death_n_5604208.html

The EMTs did not help. They just loaded him into an ambulance so a doctor could determine he was dead.


DC had a somewhat similar incident a bit ago, dunno if we talked about it. Long story short, dude had a heart attack across the street from the fire station, manned by five folks with emergency training. Pled with 'em for help until he died. Now, of course, everyone's trying to assign blame.

Maybe, he did not die for selling untaxed smokes.
Maybe, he died for being frightening to The Police.

Where do the Police go to School?
What do they learn?

If they learn to be Fearful,
they will act like Fearful Animals.
Humans are Animals.

There is a bumper sticker that says,
Fearful People Do Stupid Things

That is the most Kind and Generous perspective I can have on a Gang Killing.
Last edited by addams on Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:33 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:12 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:Forgive me if I was unclear. Was writing about the policemen who killed this poor fellow. A better link is here, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=1 The two policemen have been placed on modified duty.

The EMTs are volunteers from a nearby hospital. The did not live up to what I expect of a standard of care. But then again, I am an Army man and I will never give up on patient until a doctor tells me to lay off. Their behavior was sufficiently egregious to provoke an investigation. But all of that is off-topic.

The police killed him for selling untaxed smokes.

To me the EMT investigation reeks of cover-up. True, it's not clear from the article how much they helped the man.
But, to me, it still smells more of, "We have a man dead. The police cannot be at fault. Therefore the EMT's must be responsible for his death."
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:41 pm UTC

EMTs are also not paramedics. Like I said, what they can do is limited - and easily overruled by the police officers. This is why we shouldn't use EMTs at times, this being one of them.

-Crissa

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby EMTP » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:40 pm UTC

Crissa wrote:EMTs are also not paramedics. Like I said, what they can do is limited - and easily overruled by the police officers. This is why we shouldn't use EMTs at times, this being one of them.

-Crissa


The report referred to two EMTs and two paramedics. I'm not sure who was involved in what way in this case. Either way, both EMTs and paramedics will defer to law enforcement regarding scene safety (unless you're talking environmental hazards, in which case you would defer to the incident commander, usually a fire guy). Often they cannot not even enter a scene until it has been deemed safe by law enforcement.

However, cops do not make patient care decisions, including when to take a patient to the hospital. That is the medical providers domain. They might under certain circumstances feel pressured by police to clear someone medically so they can go to jail. But both EMTs and paramedics have every right (and responsibility) to stand up to that pressure and do the right thing.

Different circumstances call for different staffing, but in general, I think the most broadly useful ambulance crew is one EMT and one paramedic. You have the paramedic for the really sick people and the EMT for stable patients.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:52 pm UTC

Crissa wrote:Police should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

-Crissa


The same standard would be an improvement.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

Maybe it is different in NYC, but around here the cops will basically beg you to keep people in the hospital. This means the cops get to delay paperwork until he is discharged and at least one cop gets super cushy angry birds duty sitting outside the guys room and undoing the handcuffs when the medical team asks

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:53 pm UTC

Remember the cop in Philly that hit that lady at the Puerto Rican Day parade? He got fired, then he got un-fired. He is back on duty. He just alerted a family that their house was on fire in time for them to get out. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140727_Disgraced_officer_becomes_hero.html Really it is just his job, but it is only right to note he did it this time.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:03 pm UTC

Why is it right to note that he didn't mess up this time?


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