Police misbehavior thread

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lutzj
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby lutzj » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:39 am UTC

We probably have to wait on physical evidence on this one. Answering questions like "was Brown shot in the back, front, or side?" and "did they fight beforehand?" seems like it would help clear things up.

The release of the convenience-store footage seems to be a willful distraction the police department, since it coincided with their revelation of Wilson's identity and the police stop was apparently not related to the robbery anyway. But that context (fleeing a crime scene) explains why Brown might have decided to pick a fight with a police officer.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:47 am UTC

lutzj wrote:We probably have to wait on physical evidence on this one. Answering questions like "was Brown shot in the back, front, or side?" and "did they fight beforehand?" seems like it would help clear things up.

The release of the convenience-store footage seems to be a willful distraction the police department, since it coincided with their revelation of Wilson's identity and the police stop was apparently not related to the robbery anyway. But that context (fleeing a crime scene) explains why Brown might have decided to pick a fight with a police officer.


I know. It's so convenient, I actually wonder if it was falsified. Even the police admit it has no direct relevance to officer Wilson's stopping Brown and Johnson, because he was not aware of that event. Yes, it might have led Brown to start a fight...

...but the officer surely did finish it, didn't he?

And even if Brown did bend down, it doesn't prove he started a fight, just supports the possibility that he might have. He could have bent down just to talk to the officer.

Yes, we will have to depend on the evidence...assuming it hasn't all been "misplaced" by now...
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:14 pm UTC

cphite wrote:There was an eye-witness who claims that Michael Brown was shot with his hands in the air; but if that's the same guy who was with Michael Brown when he allegedly robbed a convenience store, his testimony is suspect at best. The point is, we don't know. So all of the arguments that start with "the police shot an unarmed man with his hands up" and those that start with "Michael Brown tried to disarm the cop" are, at this point, just speculation. Until we know the facts.

Except it's my understanding that both sides match on the fact that an unarmed black teenager was shot multiple times, at least once in the back, by a white police officer. There may be aditional details that make that less of an obvious case of a cop murdering a kid, but as far as I know those basic details are not in dispute.

Regarding the riots, the latest information I've seen suggests that the protests started peacefully but then people started looting; and that this is what prompted the police response. Again, we don't know for sure; there are claims that the police crackdown started first.
Even if you're right about the timeline, you can't deny that cops showing up more heavily equipped than most military forces made things worse.

There's also the fact that Thursday night was relatively peaceful (surprise surprise tensions were lower when the cops didn't show up with tanks and snipers). And then last night, by all accounts things were again peaceful until police showed up once more with excessive force. (Also worth noting that while it may have been fellow protestors who initially broke windows and looked to start looting again last night, it was other protestors who stood guard in front of opened stores to prevent it.)

This is another reason why, in my opinion, police officers should be required to wear recording (both audio and video) devices at all times when on duty.
This I definitely agree with. It's no coincidence that complaints of police brutality pretty consistently drop every time this requirement is enacted somewhere.

(Everyone note that it is legal to openly record police in the US, though secret recordings are generally not permitted. http://www.copblock.org/ has lots of info on that, as well as various smartphone apps that stream video to the web in case your phone gets confiscated or destroyed.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:(Everyone note that it is legal to openly record police in the US, though secret recordings are generally not permitted. http://www.copblock.org/ has lots of info on that, as well as various smartphone apps that stream video to the web in case your phone gets confiscated or destroyed.)
A ) I still can't wrap my head around how it is remotely acceptable to ban secret recordings of a cop, and B ) I think it's a shockingly sad state of affairs that such apps were even needed.

I am 100% pro cops wearing cameras for the protection of cops and civilians alike. I am 100% pro bystanders filming cops for the protection of cops and civilians alike.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:51 pm UTC

Yeah, I'm not sure of the justification for banning secret recordings, unless it's just an extension of general rules about situations when you can't record someone without their knowledge.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BlackSails » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:29 pm UTC

There should really just be a national mandate for police body cams.

Edit: Actually, I cant find good studies on that. Start with some studies to determine if they are effective.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:51 pm UTC

Google Glasses On EveryOne, All The Time!
Just like the Russians.

Most of what is recorded is mundane.
If anything interesting happens, it is Recorded for The World to see.

During the last few weeks, I have wished for Google Glasses more than once.
Even with the Google Glasses, somethings need further explanations.

The State?
I was interacting with a State Police. It may have been Shariff.
I think he was wearing a Google Glass type piece of equipment.

(shrug) Who has access to that data?
It can disappear as fast as it was recorded. Faster.

If we All have on Google Glass, we will forget about the technology.
And; Most of us will continue being so dull there are TV Programs about us.

Beware: I did not watch the whole thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD2Dhnu3tP0

Those people record, Everything!
Some of it is funny.

The Americans can have just as much fun.
I have wanted Google Glasses for people, wildlife and natural phenomenon.

Of course, the police can have them and every minute must be accountable for.
Worse than that Factory in the East.

We don't care how many times you piss.
When you are on On Duty we will critique each and every piss.

What??
Every On Duty police personal can have a live web cam?
Jeeze. Will we Up Vote and Down Vote individuals?

Will the internet Trolls win that battle, too?
Only one way to find out.

We are supposed to have some Technology lying around, somewhere.
Have you seen it? I saw some in passing.

Who has the Technology?
Who can make them use it?

How is the Community to monitor its Employees?
These Employees have developed a Bad Reputation.

If the victums have Google Glass, a break in the reacord would be suspect.
Would it not?

Did you read in the History Books about the 7 minutes of lost tape from the Nixon Era?
How many Hours do we Lose, today?

EDIT:
I was thinking.
Hey! I'm qualified.
That's beside the point.

I was thinking.
Do you remember the order, "Clear the area of all nonessential personal." ?

It is often the first thing to be done.
It can be darned hard to do, too.

Everyone thinks they are essential personal.
I yelled at one group. "If you are essential personal! I'm Not!"

Then I left.
So funny.

That order is a KneeJerk reaction and a darned good one.
It has evacuated me. For that I can be grateful.

Well....? I did it recently.
Not evauated me.

I needed to clear the area of all nonessential personal.
The nonessential personal did not want to go.

True to form, the nonessential personal wanted to stay and watch.
Who knows? Nonessential personal can potenentally be The Problem.

Looting? I remember learning about looting.
They are doing What?

After it was explained, it made perfect sense.
Looting is Not Nice. Looting is Not a Capital Crime.

Yes. Looting is a good reason to Rant and Rave.
To even make Hollow Threats. Don't shoot people.

Shooting people is less nice than Looting.
Didn't you come in knowing anything?

Riots are not nearly as much fun as they look like they might be.
I have been down inside one. It's hard to see. Fucking People.

Hey! In one riot I was in, there were fucking people.

I swear.
It was very exciting.

Some people express excitement with sex. (shrug)
That's ugly behavoir, too. Don't shoot them, either.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Aikanaro » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:21 pm UTC

Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

Love, Aikanaro.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:25 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure of the justification for banning secret recordings, unless it's just an extension of general rules about situations when you can't record someone without their knowledge.


If you're not allowed to secretly record anyone at all, then that also covers police officers (I assume). Being allowed to record police officers would be an exception to the general rule, rather than not being allowed to record them being an extension.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:58 pm UTC


ok.
That's great for ya' all.
I think it is a good idea.

Now, the decision has been made and implimtation begins.
Good.

We can dicuss the dystopian implications.
What are the dysopian implications?

The secrets are killing us.
Will this make what is done in the dark come into the light?

Implimentation can not be Hollow.
That means More Employment! yey!

I wonder who will be designing the program.
Who will decide the Rules?

Who will take responsibility for that data?
How long will each day be archived?

Who is their IT guy?
Will they be using HomeLand Secuity's digital resources and IT manpower?

Will this get lost in our sea of secrets, too?
Our people do have a Right to Privacy.

During our interactions with medical and law enforcement we are not always at our best.

I think open web cams are a Bad Idea.
Professionals can review sections that need reviewing.

Yet; A group of conserned citizens should have The Right of reviewing the record.
I have no idea how that program should be run.

There are experts all over the planet that can simply hand out Rules that work.
It's like Physical Chemisty. There are at least Five good answers that will work.

Some plans might work great in a city and horrible out in the woods.
The US may not have any experts that know how to design a system to work For the people.

Other nations do.
The English were the most photographed people on the planet at one time.

The Russians may have passed them.
We could set it as a goal.

Become the most photographed people on the Planet.
We could meet that goal very quickly.

We have the Technology.
All we have to do is use it.

Why don't we all have Dash Cams?
The Russians do...(whine)
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:48 am UTC

If one more person describes a 6'4" 200lb man as a child....

seriously though - if you are going to riot in the name of someone please please please stop doing it in the name of criminals. Brown isn't as bad as Mark(that gun in the sock I threw out the car isn't mine) Duggan and the Police are hardly saints but still...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:34 pm UTC

There's no solid evidence that he is a criminal at all, and there is solid evidence that the cop who murdered him knew nothing of the alleged robbery, since the store says they didn't call the police.

But the point you're missing completely is that even if he was a criminal, being shot in the back and several more times on the ground is not justice for *anyone*. And many far more heinous white criminals got their days in court and their fucking Rolling Stones cover while people like Mike Brown get gunned down in the street.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:49 pm UTC

Rather than riot, why not have something on this year's ballot that removes the ability of the Ferguson police to have firearms at all?

I think that would send a much clearer message to police. At least, one they will listen to.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:12 pm UTC

Do you believe that a ballot initiative like that would pass?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:17 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:There's no solid evidence that he is a criminal at all, and there is solid evidence that the cop who murdered him knew nothing of the alleged robbery, since the store says they didn't call the police.


So that CCTV footage of him robbing the shop isn't solid nor the cigars found on him? I find that a bit of a stretch.

But the point you're missing completely is that even if he was a criminal, being shot in the back and several more times on the ground is not justice for *anyone*. And many far more heinous white criminals got their days in court and their fucking Rolling Stones cover while people like Mike Brown get gunned down in the street.


Correct its not, what it is a fairly trivial one off incident were a cop may or may not have got a little bit too shooty with a potential suspect - but the evidence is unclear. White police shoot white people pretty regularly in the US (as you'd expect) too without fanfare. A betting man would suggest that if the cop overreacted (not unlikely I admit) it will have far more to do with the 6'4" 300lbs issue and little to do with race.

What I can say with pretty much certainty that if you want to solidify negative perceptions then going for a few nights of rioting and looting is the way to go.

as an aside, aren't police chiefs in the US elected?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:21 pm UTC

I really don't understand the logic that went into releasing that CCTV footage. An unarmed robbery shouldn't be anywhere near enough to justify shooting someone, and apparently the cop didn't know about it anyway, so it just ends up being 'this guy probably deserved it anyway' which makes the police look even worse, in my opinion, as it shows they think that sort of thinking is justified??

Also, did they really shoot someone over an argument involving someone jaywalking in the middle of the day? This is the impression I've been left with, and it really sounds completely bizarre.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Do you believe that a ballot initiative like that would pass?


If the majority of the voting public doesn't like the police, yes. The people in Ferguson upset aren't the minority. Ate least that's the impression I get from CNN.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:41 pm UTC

the logic I imagine is two fold

1) They alledgedly had mulitple FOI requests from the media (although I suspect in practice these could be rebuffed)

2) To provide an alternative plausible narrative to standing brutal execution one. A thief realising that hes just ruined his life just before college doing something daft with regards to an armed cop makes for a far more "sad accident" media defence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Do you believe that a ballot initiative like that would pass?


If the majority of the voting public doesn't like the police, yes. The people in Ferguson upset aren't the minority. Ate least that's the impression I get from CNN.


I suppose that many people, while upset that this event happened, could easily be talked into thinking that their place would be less safe if the police had no guns.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:55 pm UTC

Some additional information.

Some additional footage has been found which shows Michael Brown at the cashier, paying. This combined with the fact that the cop hadn't been told about this supposed "robbery" anyway makes it pretty hard to believe their story.

Also, a family-requested private autopsy shows Michael Brown was shot from the front at least 6 times. Notably, the shots to the arm are to the side exposed with hands raised to surrender and not when lowered and running at a cop.

Notably though, the doctor did not have access to x-rays showing where the bullets were recovered or any statements. The autopsy was also apparently complicated by the fact that some bullets entered and exited several times; at least one left five different wounds.

The shot through the top of the head suggests his head was lowered but that this could be to surrender or to charge the cop.

“In my capacity as the forensic examiner for the New York State Police, I would say, ‘You’re not supposed to shoot so many times,’ ” said Dr. Baden [the doctor who did the autopsy], who retired from the state police in 2011.


“The sheer number of bullets and the way they were scattered all over his body showed this police officer had a brazen disregard for the very people he was supposed to protect in that community,” Mr. Crump [a lawyer for Michael Brown's family] said.


The police autopsy (performed before this one) hasn't been released.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:10 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The shot through the top of the head suggests his head was lowered but that this could be to surrender or to charge the cop.


Or looking down at the bullet wounds in his body.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:25 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:

“The sheer number of bullets and the way they were scattered all over his body showed this police officer had a brazen disregard for the very people he was supposed to protect in that community,” Mr. Crump [a lawyer for Michael Brown's family] said.



I may regret typing this.

Have you ever watched at a Police Shooting Range?
Have you ever had some Guy show off for you?

It takes practice to do that.
It is a hard won skill.

Those 9's buck.

That is one complete thought.
It is ok to stop Right There.

A human mind can hold more than one thought at a time.

Another thought:

'What you have done Once is easier to do a Second time."
"What you have done Many Times is not that hard to do."
"We get good at what we do."

Brazen disregard?
That requires Thinking.

A skill, like emptying a revolver, is learned at the Kenetic level.

Go to a Range.
Ask a few of those Guys to show you their stuff.

How does that bullet pattern fit with the bullet pattern on the victim?

If you Train men to do a Job.
Don't act so fucking surprised when they do it.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Adam H » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:31 pm UTC

addams wrote:If you Train men to do a Job.
Don't act so fucking surprised when they do it.

That's bullshit. Learning how to fire a gun accurately does not mean that your job is to murder people.
-Adam

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:35 pm UTC

Yeah. I don't think the focus should be so much about the number of bullets used, personally. If you shoot someone you're basically trying to kill them, if you want them alive it's best not to shoot them at all. (This is why I don't get the rage about hollow-point bullets etc that are designed to cause maximum damage - with few exceptions, all bullets are designed to kill people. That is their job.)

The issue should simply be that the cop decided he needed to kill Brown at that moment. Even though from all accounts, the cop wasn't in danger and the suspect had his hands up.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:36 pm UTC

Grop wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Do you believe that a ballot initiative like that would pass?


If the majority of the voting public doesn't like the police, yes. The people in Ferguson upset aren't the minority. Ate least that's the impression I get from CNN.


I suppose that many people, while upset that this event happened, could easily be talked into thinking that their place would be less safe if the police had no guns.


The people have to put pressure and constantly remind their community why it's necessary. Get the message out and all. Even if it doesn't pass, it does send a message to the police that the public is turning on them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

I may be misunderstanding something, but doesn't the CCTV footage (which, to my understanding, is set about 10 min before the shooting) show the figure in different clothes than Brown was wearing?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:26 pm UTC

It's hard to tell the colour of the trousers, the white from the shirt definitely makes everything around it look lighter and the colour of the trousers seems to change a lot in the footage but seems to be beige-y grey. Footage and photographs of his body show him in a white shirt with beige-y grey trousers or possibly long shorts (it's hard to tell the length in the footage I've seen).

So no, I'm pretty sure it's the same clothes.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:18 pm UTC

leady wrote:So that CCTV footage of him robbing the shop isn't solid nor the cigars found on him? I find that a bit of a stretch.
That cctv footage that isn't conclusively him and those cigars the police who killed him say they found? No, that is not solid.

And again, even if he did rob the store for a few dollars' worth of stuff, neither of the above support the claim that the police knew about the robbery before Brown was killed.

Correct its not, what it is a fairly trivial one off incident were a cop may or may not have got a little bit too shooty with a potential suspect - but the evidence is unclear.
Calling it a trivial one-off incident means you accept the (significance of the) claim that the shooter didn't have any prior problems with brutality, but apparently not the claim that Michael Brown hadn't previously had any problems with the law.

Note that the former claim comes from a racist police department covering its own ass and can be backed up only by their own paperwork, while the latter can be backed up with evidence from the opposing side, which I tend to think makes it more reliable.

White police shoot white people pretty regularly in the US (as you'd expect) too without fanfare. A betting man would suggest that if the cop overreacted (not unlikely I admit) it will have far more to do with the 6'4" 300lbs issue and little to do with race.
Bull. Shit.

Of course it has to do with race. The police captain literally had a Confederate flag inside his house and 50 out of 53 police officers are white in a city with 2/3 black population, and this isn't the first time police there have engaged in racially biased brutality.

When cops kill or otherwise brutalize white people without justification, they're generally fired or at least put on unpaid leave.

What I can say with pretty much certainty that if you want to solidify negative perceptions then going for a few nights of rioting and looting is the way to go.
It's still unclear how much, if any, rioting and looting were going on before the police first showed up as a military force. It is fairly clear, from what I've read, that the second night of flare-ups and window-breaking did not start until overequipped cops showed up again.

Edit: also, can we please not forget how often white people riot over fucking sports results? Or even in support of people like Joe Paterno, who was fired (not murdered) for protecting someone he knew to be a pedophile (not jaywalking)? And how rarely police respond to those riots with tanks and teargas and rubber coated bullets?

You cannot claim this isn't about race unless you've got your head so far up your ass that everything you can see is the color of your own shit.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:34 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And again, even if he did rob the store for a few dollars' worth of stuff, neither of the above support the claim that the police knew about the robbery before Brown was killed.


And there is that thing (you said gmal) about police not being supposed to execute criminals (which he maybe wasn't).

Even if that guy had killed babies with a club, that would still be wrong.

I would also point that police hasn't claimed that he was either fleeing or even running, so let's not make wild guesses in that direction.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:11 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:That cctv footage that isn't conclusively him and those cigars the police who killed him say they found? No, that is not solid.

And again, even if he did rob the store for a few dollars' worth of stuff, neither of the above support the claim that the police knew about the robbery before Brown was killed.


Bullshit - that would be evidenced in court without comment

Calling it a trivial one-off incident means you accept the (significance of the) claim that the shooter didn't have any prior problems with brutality, but apparently not the claim that Michael Brown hadn't previously had any problems with the law.

Note that the former claim comes from a racist police department covering its own ass and can be backed up only by their own paperwork, while the latter can be backed up with evidence from the opposing side, which I tend to think makes it more reliable.


It takes quite a neil armstrong type leap to go all the way to Racist execution, bypassing all manner of far more likely scenarios and requires some seriously unsupported inputs (police lying, planting evidence, cops deliberately committing murder and getting covered by their partner...).

Bull. Shit.

Of course it has to do with race. The police captain literally had a Confederate flag inside his house and 50 out of 53 police officers are white in a city with 2/3 black population, and this isn't the first time police there have engaged in racially biased brutality.

When cops kill or otherwise brutalize white people without justification, they're generally fired or at least put on unpaid leave.


Even if the precinct is as racist as hell (I've seen no evidence it is - 50 white police officers is not evidence), believing that petty racism escalates to execution murder in front of several witnesses is.... Cops brutalise white people (scummy white people admittedly) all the time without censure.

It's still unclear how much, if any, rioting and looting were going on before the police first showed up as a military force. It is fairly clear, from what I've read, that the second night of flare-ups and window-breaking did not start until overequipped cops showed up again.


Softly softly worked so well for the Met police....

Edit: also, can we please not forget how often white people riot over fucking sports results? Or even in support of people like Joe Paterno, who was fired (not murdered) for protecting someone he knew to be a pedophile (not jaywalking)? And how rarely police respond to those riots with tanks and teargas and rubber coated bullets?


Yup and those turds get arrested and thrown in prison like they should do - the point?

You cannot claim this isn't about race unless you've got your head so far up your ass that everything you can see is the color of your own shit.


Or it could have been (or massively more likely) to be an overreaction to a threatening situation precipitated by the pre-committed crime. 6'4" 300lbs for fecks sake, the mans a monster !

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:25 pm UTC

leady wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:That cctv footage that isn't conclusively him and those cigars the police who killed him say they found? No, that is not solid.

And again, even if he did rob the store for a few dollars' worth of stuff, neither of the above support the claim that the police knew about the robbery before Brown was killed.


Bullshit - that would be evidenced in court without comment


Only if the suspect has the priviledge of going to court alive. In this case, such a priviledge was denied from him. Or was that a right?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:28 pm UTC

leady wrote:
It's still unclear how much, if any, rioting and looting were going on before the police first showed up as a military force. It is fairly clear, from what I've read, that the second night of flare-ups and window-breaking did not start until overequipped cops showed up again.


Softly softly worked so well for the Met police....


If you're talking about the 2011 riots I don't think "Softly softly" really best describes the Met's approach.

EDIT: Although admittedly they didn't go in with tear-gas, MRAP vehicles and M4 carbines. But if that's the bar for what counts as softly softly now, then... fuck.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:33 pm UTC

leady wrote:It takes quite a neil armstrong type leap to go all the way to Racist execution, bypassing all manner of far more likely scenarios and requires some seriously unsupported inputs (police lying, planting evidence, cops deliberately committing murder and getting covered by their partner...).
You think any of those are things that don't happen all the fucking time? I get that you're a privileged white dude who's never personally been the victim of police brutality, but that doesn't excuse your purposeful ignorance of how often it happens and is covered up.

believing that petty racism escalates to execution murder in front of several witnesses is
Racism becomes rather less petty when it's backed up by cops with guns.

The Confederate flag in his house and quotes from the captain's wife would also tend to suggest racism that runs a bit deeper than "black folks are more likely to be criminals than white folks" or whatever you think counts as petty.

Softly softly worked so well for the Met police....
No one is claiming or would ever claim that riots never happen when cops don't provoke it. White people losing their shit after Paterno was fired is one such example that I myself already brought up.

I was only claiming that these riots may not have happened at all and certainly wouldn't have been as bad had these cops not shown up ready to invade a warzone.

Yup and those turds get arrested and thrown in prison like they should do - the point?
They weren't all arrested, and none of them were shot with tear gas or sound cannons or rubber bullets.

Or it could have been (or massively more likely) to be an overreaction to a threatening situation precipitated by the pre-committed crime. 6'4" 300lbs for fecks sake, the mans a monster !
The pre-committed crime that no one in the police department even knew about until after the kid was murdered? The pre-committed crime that, if it provably happened, would likely make people less prone to rioting?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:47 pm UTC

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... -ferguson/

Amnesty International sent observers to Ferguson, the first time such a delegation has been sent to the US.

Jasmine Heiss, an Washington-based campaigner for Amnesty International, was part of the delegation that traveled to Ferguson. Her previous deployment? Palestine.

“What was unprecedented and is unprecedented,” Heiss said of Ferguson, “is the scope of [Amnesty's] mission.” Amnesty’s response in Ferguson, she added, was more akin to the organization’s work during the 2013 protests in Turkey than it was to any previous action the group has taken in the United States.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:05 pm UTC

leady wrote:Or it could have been (or massively more likely) to be an overreaction to a threatening situation precipitated by the pre-committed crime. 6'4" 300lbs for fecks sake, the mans a monster !


I'm 5'10" and 325 lbs. I'm also pretty timid and unthreatening.

But I guess you wouldn't call me a monster because I'm white?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:30 pm UTC

That half a foot makes a big difference though. He's large, and while technically 'severely obese', he is not 'super obese'. Large people tend to be 'gentle giants' because otherwise they intimidate people, and if you intimidate the wrong person you end up with what happened here.

Off topic, have you tried switching to canola oil? I find I eat less if I cook with canola instead of olive, soy, or peanut oil. Better ratio of alpha-linolenic acids, I think.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

leady wrote:Or it could have been (or massively more likely) to be an overreaction to a threatening situation precipitated by the pre-committed crime. 6'4" 300lbs for fecks sake, the mans a monster !


Oh yes I missed that: the man was big therefore it was okay to murder him. Because any cop facing a bigger guy should feel threatened and use lethal violence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

A family friend was a 6'5 surgeon. During college he worked part time as a cabbie, back when you could do that. One day, a small old woman stuffed him of the fare. So he went inside, stood over her, and in a less-than-friendly tone demanded she pay her fare. Big young man versus tiny old woman. Cops took one look and decided who was at fault. He spent the night in jail.

Tropes suck in real life.

People have pre-conceived ideas about others based on their own experiences and biases. The human mind doesn't like being wrong, so if something doesn't fit their bias, people decide it's most likely a fluke or something. Truth is irrelevant. So a cop saw a large black man, likely his brain decided that the young man fit the Black Brute archetype, and the cop acted accordingly. So a (presumed) innocent man was likely killed because of someone else's bias. I think that might fit the definition of a hate crime, if you can prove it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:29 pm UTC

leady wrote:
Bull. Shit.

Of course it has to do with race. The police captain literally had a Confederate flag inside his house and 50 out of 53 police officers are white in a city with 2/3 black population, and this isn't the first time police there have engaged in racially biased brutality.

When cops kill or otherwise brutalize white people without justification, they're generally fired or at least put on unpaid leave.


Even if the precinct is as racist as hell (I've seen no evidence it is - 50 white police officers is not evidence), believing that petty racism escalates to execution murder in front of several witnesses is.... Cops brutalise white people (scummy white people admittedly) all the time without censure.


Ok, let's assume the precinct isn't racist, and that black and white people are equally likely to be hired. Some quick binomial distribution-y maths tells us that the chance of having 50 white cops and 3 black cops when 2/3 of the population is black (and so there is a 2/3 chance of each person hired being black) is ~10-20.

That is so incredibly tiny that it is, by any useful definition, impossible.

This wolfram page has a plot for the function describing the probability of that distribution of officers as a function of the chance of hiring a black officer. Notice how it's well below 0.5% for any chance of hiring a black officer above 20% and how the chance of hiring a black officer which gives the maximum chance of this distribution is 6%.

If you seriously believe those numbers are the result of anything other than racism in a town 65% black then you are completely oblivious to the facts.

leady wrote:
Edit: also, can we please not forget how often white people riot over fucking sports results? Or even in support of people like Joe Paterno, who was fired (not murdered) for protecting someone he knew to be a pedophile (not jaywalking)? And how rarely police respond to those riots with tanks and teargas and rubber coated bullets?


Yup and those turds get arrested and thrown in prison like they should do - the point?


The point is that the reaction of the police is orders of magnitude more extreme when it's black people protesting than when it's white people rioting. Such a ridiculous over-reaction at the very least massively exacerbated the looting or, as seems to be the case from what I've heard and seen, caused it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:31 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That half a foot makes a big difference though. He's large, and while technically 'severely obese', he is not 'super obese'. Large people tend to be 'gentle giants' because otherwise they intimidate people, and if you intimidate the wrong person you end up with what happened here.

Off topic, have you tried switching to canola oil? I find I eat less if I cook with canola instead of olive, soy, or peanut oil. Better ratio of alpha-linolenic acids, I think.

If you're talking to me, I prefer having a life that's actually enjoyable and not stressing about what I eat, especially since my weight doesn't obstruct my life or activity in any way whatsoever, except during high school, attracting the attention of bigots and bullies.
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