Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:25 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
leady wrote:because by and large people don't get gunned down in the street in broad daylight.
This is an outrageous claim to make. I'm hoping you have some pretty strong evidence for this beyond the mere perception of "I don't remember frequently seeing (my kind of) people gunned down in the street in broad daylight." Confirmation bias of the highest order.

Yeah, there are several other cases just in the past few weeks of white cops shooting unarmed black civilians. It is admittedly not always in the street in broad daylight, though. Sometimes it's in a car during a traffic stop. Other times it's in a store and the murder victim was "armed" with a toy gun or a BB gun (while white people walk around Target with openly carried rifles and no one bats an eye). Sometimes it's evening or night time.

And sometimes the unarmed black men killed by police are choked or tased to death instead of being shot, so I guess there's also that.

Ferguson has just gotten more press than the others because the cops there rolled up on protestors more heavily equipped (and more poorly trained to use said equipment) than real soldiers entering a war zone, and then the situation escalated as anyone with a pair of brain cells to rub together could have predicted.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:26 pm UTC

Unarmed does not mean harmless. The officer in the Michael Brown incident, for instance, suffered an [url="http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/"]"Orbital Blowout Fracture to Eye Socket"[/url].

Not that I know whether Michael Brown was harmless. Or whether the cop "murdered" Brown, or whether it was in self-defense. There are so many uncertainties involved that I find it hard to say anything certain, except re: the people saying anything certain. I find it pretty self-evident that the press coverage is more racially motivated than the Ferguson police. I would hope this is self-evident to everyone else, but I'm ok with having those hopes dashed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:28 pm UTC

What a mess.
I understand the following essay.
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/stor ... /14208429/

I don't think it is very helpful.
I don't think it is a Race Problem.

It is a Class problem.
I know that both Black and White men and sometimes women need protections.
I know that both Black and White men and sometimes women are victimized.

In communities without many black skinned people,
The People are still suffering.

The criminals and criminal look alikes need and deserve protection from Abuse.
That protection should be toward a human being not a Kind of human being.

Not all of our Police personal are AssHoles.
It seems the AssHoles are carrying the day.

A tough and dangerous bunch of AssHoles culls its own herd.
The last Police Officer this community lost, was lost to his own hand.

As Human Beings, we are tough on our own.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:Unarmed does not mean harmless. The officer in the Michael Brown incident, for instance, suffered an "Orbital Blowout Fracture to Eye Socket".
Says that article that uncritically uses surveillance footage that probably wasn't Michael Brown at all, given the different clothes, the presence of other video showing Brown paying for the cigars, and the fact that the store's owner says he doesn't believe it's Brown on that initial video.

At the bottom it posts a single unconfirmed tweet from a reporter claiming a bunch of witnesses (not eyewitnesses, mind you) corroborate Wilson's story. But those witnesses are apparently not reliable enough to get their account actually printed anywhere, so instead a bunch of teabagger websites (such as thegatewaypundit linked above) have taken the "story" and run with it.

Pardon me for not caring any more for what that rag claims than for what Alex Jones posts on his own conspiracy nutjob website.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
mobiusstripsearch wrote:Unarmed does not mean harmless. The officer in the Michael Brown incident, for instance, suffered an "Orbital Blowout Fracture to Eye Socket".
Says that article that uncritically uses surveillance footage that probably wasn't Michael Brown at all, given the different clothes, the presence of other video showing Brown paying for the cigars, and the fact that the store's owner says he doesn't believe it's Brown on that initial video.


Since the store incident is only tangentially connected to the shooting, I won't comment. (Though if you have a source, I'd like to see it; I've only heard allegations that it is Brown on the video.)

But I have no reason to suspect that sloppy journalism means outright fabrication. It is easier to suppose that Brown did attack a cop who claimed to receive injuries, a account police witnesses corroborate, than to suppose that journalists and police are interested in covering up a unwarranted shooting in broad daylight.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:07 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:Since the store incident is only tangentially connected to the shooting, I won't comment. (Though if you have a source, I'd like to see it; I've only heard allegations that it is Brown on the video.)
Gosh, if only people had already provided those sources here in this very thread.

"Ferguson Store Owner Says He Doesn’t Believe That’s Mike Brown On Surveillance Video"

"Michael Brown, Ferguson Victim Paid For His Rellos"

But I have no reason to suspect that sloppy journalism means outright fabrication. It is easier to suppose that Brown did attack a cop who claimed to receive injuries, a account police witnesses corroborate, than to suppose that journalists and police are interested in covering up a unwarranted shooting in broad daylight.
It doesn't need to be outright fabrication on the part of the journalists, it just needs to be one overly credulous journalist paying attention only to those witnesses who are already on the cop's side (none of them eyewitnesses, mind you, so their being on the cop's side means they heard about what happened from him). As I said, her story didn't get published, possibly because it was shitty journalism and her claims didn't have sufficient backup to meet even the low standard of evidence demanded by most of today's newspapers.

Same with the police: they don't as a whole department need to be interested in actively fabricating a story, they just need to be too willing to believe Darren Wilson's version of the story.

And if you don't think Wilson has reason to cover up what happened, you are far too gullible to even bother continuing this discussion. Keep in mind how many days he and the "witnesses" taking his side had to work on his story, compared to the actual eyewitnesses who were interviewed way back at the beginning of last week.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:37 pm UTC

Try to provide some semblance of balance. Until shown differently I assume that the officer gave a statement just after the shooting. Just as he will have been photographed. The Justice Department will be able to sort out who said what and when. If the story varies, or if the paperwork is fucked with, it is reasonable to assume that Justice will be able to ferret out that fact.

As for the store owner, what would you expect him to say, particularly during a riot. It isn't that I believe he is lying, but considering he is a member of the community and that stores have already been burnt, what expectations would you have for any reasonably prudent person. Do you expect him to stand up and say that the dead man robbed me? In any case in addition to the Justice Department there is now a Grand Jury being impaneled.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:41 pm UTC

The justice department has a big incentive to bury evidence regarding crooked cops. Waaaaaaaaaah

Edit: apparently XKCD does like the "who guards the guards" phrase.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:08 pm UTC

Yeah, I think that got filtered long ago because people were bandying it about to whine about overly "oppressive" moderator actions or something.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:21 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Maryland just Gerrymandered the only Republican District out of the state. Very solid Democratic Majority there... and the Republicans have been diluted to all hell. I guess I'm just used to Gerrymandering suppressing the minority.


Okay, think of it like this: Gerrymandering is for the advantage of politicians and political parties. It benefits the people whenever the interests of the politicians and the people are identical.

Do you think that is true in the Maryland case? Or did they do it to keep the only remaining Republican majority from being represented? Of course: They did it so the Democrats would reign supreme and the Republicans would be...oppressed.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 pm UTC

Well.
ok.

I still think it is a larger problem.
I tried to talk to a friend about a similar issue.

She said, "There is Nothing New under the sun."
I was iincredulous.

She was right.
When guns are common,
Commoners behave the same way they did years and years ago.

Can you hear a gravely voiced old Southerner?
He says, "We didn't have those problems. Gentalmen settled it a Dawn."

Still. I am with the Rioters.
Shooting people is Not Nice.

If we want people shot we can Do It!
We hire Police to be Peace Officers.

They have Got to stop shooting us.
The big Heavy Handed Busts would be nice to live without, too.

If our Police Suck.
We could Out Source.

I think it is a Great Idea.
We can turn to the UN for a second time in one year.

Is that Like a Record for us?
Gee. Do you think they will respond?

We need a PeaceKeeping Police Force to Relpace our War Active and War Worn Police Force?

Yes. Yes. It seems we do.
Who is going to write up the Statement to the UN?

Someone from Fergoson?
They will be Represnting Black, White and some other funny colored people.
Someone remind that person. ok?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:43 pm UTC

But I have no reason to suspect that sloppy journalism means outright fabrication. It is easier to suppose that Brown did attack a cop who claimed to receive injuries, a account police witnesses corroborate, than to suppose that journalists and police are interested in covering up a unwarranted shooting in broad daylight.
It doesn't need to be outright fabrication on the part of the journalists, it just needs to be one overly credulous journalist paying attention only to those witnesses who are already on the cop's side (none of them eyewitnesses, mind you, so their being on the cop's side means they heard about what happened from him). As I said, her story didn't get published, possibly because it was shitty journalism and her claims didn't have sufficient backup to meet even the low standard of evidence demanded by most of today's newspapers.


We have at least two pieces of concrete evidence that are not subject to the journalist leaning towards one side or the other: One, we have the autopsy results that contradict the claim that Brown was running away and shot in the back (he had no wounds from that direction); and two, we have the fact that the cop sustained a head injury that is consistent with being punched in the face.

Same with the police: they don't as a whole department need to be interested in actively fabricating a story, they just need to be too willing to believe Darren Wilson's version of the story.


Or... maybe Wilson is telling the truth? Maybe, as all of the actual hard evidence suggests, this kid really did attack the officer and was shot in self-defense?

That doesn't automatically imply that Wilson should have stopped him, or that he didn't somehow instigate whatever followed; but it certainly contradicts the initially reported version of events.

And if you don't think Wilson has reason to cover up what happened, you are far too gullible to even bother continuing this discussion. Keep in mind how many days he and the "witnesses" taking his side had to work on his story, compared to the actual eyewitnesses who were interviewed way back at the beginning of last week.


We have an autopsy report from a doctor selected by the family; and we have a medical report for the officer. I suppose you could argue that the latter could be faked; but surely the Ferguson police realize that the injuries to the officer would be verified by the feds. Attempting to fake that kind of medical documentation would be crazy stupid.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:53 pm UTC

The kid was 35 feet away when shot. Even if what Wilson said was true, that is NOT self defense.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Adam H » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:57 pm UTC

Who the fuck cares if Brown robbed the store? He's innocent until proven guilty by a judge or jury - which he never will be now that he's dead - so the police officer killed an innocent man. If we find out after the fact that the man was guilty, it doesn't matter - the police officer's motivations didn't change.

The only question that matters is whether the police officer was acting out of self-defense. As far as I know it's hard to tell with the information available to us. Six bullets is excessive, and there were several eyewitnesses with relatively consistent stories indicated Brown posed no threat whatsoever. But the eyewitnesses are all biased, and the preliminary autopsy doesn't really corroborate anything, so... I can't assume that the police officer didn't fear for his life.

Honestly the face punch makes me more likely to think that the cop gunned Brown down in coldish blood. My best guess for what happened would be that the cop tried to arrest Brown for the robbery, Brown punched him and ran off, cop drew his gun and told him to stop, Brown raised his hands, turned around, yelled something, maybe took a step towards the officer, and the officer unloaded on him, with the nugget of a thought in his head that with his injury he can claim self-defense.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:01 pm UTC

cphite wrote:We have an autopsy report from a doctor selected by the family; and we have a medical report for the officer. I suppose you could argue that the latter could be faked; but surely the Ferguson police realize that the injuries to the officer would be verified by the feds. Attempting to fake that kind of medical documentation would be crazy stupid.
I'm not arguing that the cop definitely wasn't injured, or that he wasn't injured by Brown.

(The account given by the friend who was walking with him would also be consistent with some injuries sustained by the cop, who allegedly grabbed Brown through his open window and pulled him toward the car. Struggling to get out of that situation could hurt the cop just as easily as aggressively struggling to get ahold of the cop's gun.)

I'm arguing that a site like thegatewaypundit is not a remotely reliable source either way, given their unquestioning repetition of other right-wing talking points.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The kid was 35 feet away when shot. Even if what Wilson said was true, that is NOT self defense.

35 feet.

That is a loong way in my world.
We can have a conversation at a yell at 35 feet.

It is strange to think of interacting with another human being at 35 feet.
With most animals, if you can get 35 feet and a tree between you, That's good.

On Stages we interact at 35 feet.
The victim ran 35 feet before he was shot in the back?

What were we Always! told?
"Never! Never! Run!!"

"Do not Ever Run from a Dangerous Animal."
A human being is a Dangerous Animal.

I don't care how fucking scary they are.
Don't Run.

ech. It might be a choice a man makes in The Moment.

Like Bear.
Are you going to Run?
Or; Follow directions and be beaten to death?

Those are tough choices.
We dare not criticize another man's choice in The Moment.

We can slow down and (shrug)...
I don't know; Moment of silence?

For What?
(shrug) I did not know him.
Did he have a Mom?

Someone could send a message to her, through Formal Channels.
Ask for a peice of Music. Not what he was listening to.

Something she would like played in The Church.
Then we could put the YouTube link here.

Oh, Fuck it.
Don't bother his Mom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZXM2eq46_s

And; We could slow down for half a tic and not say AnyThing.
Those moments of silence are a Nice, for the Moms.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby lutzj » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:39 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Who the fuck cares if Brown robbed the store? He's innocent until proven guilty by a judge or jury - which he never will be now that he's dead - so the police officer killed an innocent man. If we find out after the fact that the man was guilty, it doesn't matter - the police officer's motivations didn't change.


No sane person has suggested that people should be subject to extrajudicial killings for robbing convenience stores. But if Brown were fleeing a crime, that would explain why he found it necessary to assault a police officer when stopped in the street, lending credence to the notion that he assaulted a police officer after being stopped in the street.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:12 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28841715

"The day after the shooting, St Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar told reporters that Mr Brown or Mr Johnson allegedly pushed Officer Wilson back into his car as he was trying to get out, and proceeded to physically assault the officer. At some point, they struggled over Mr Wilson's weapon. A shot was fired in the car, at which point the officer got out of vehicle, and shot Mr Brown.

According to Mr Belmar, there was a distance of 35ft between Mr Wilson and Mr Brown when he was shot
."


This is a bit strange. The police statement matches quite precisely with the witness statement, except for that bit. More precisely, the police statement has a hole in it, being that according to the police statement Officer Wilson got out of the car immediately after the shot was fired in the car and shot again immediately, yet at that time somehow Mr. Brown had put 35 feet between him and the cop car...instantly.

In a movie this would be called a convenient plot hole...

And of course there was no reason for the other five shots.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:18 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:Unarmed does not mean harmless. The officer in the Michael Brown incident, for instance, suffered an [url="http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/"]"Orbital Blowout Fracture to Eye Socket"[/url].

Not that I know whether Michael Brown was harmless. Or whether the cop "murdered" Brown, or whether it was in self-defense. There are so many uncertainties involved that I find it hard to say anything certain, except re: the people saying anything certain. I find it pretty self-evident that the press coverage is more racially motivated than the Ferguson police. I would hope this is self-evident to everyone else, but I'm ok with having those hopes dashed.


I haven't found any reputable news source that confirms this orbital blowout thing. Considering that a normal sensationalist news outlet would LOVE confirmed information like this, I have my sincere doubts about it. Maybe it's true and they're just doing more fact checking, but one would think they'd be able to confirm something like this fairly quickly.

Of course even if it did occur, it just means the dead man here assaulted an officer before he was killed while 30ish feet away. It's not like it justifies the killing or anything as self-defense unless the victim was Dhalsim from Street Fighter.

StapleHorseOctopus wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28841715

"The day after the shooting, St Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar told reporters that Mr Brown or Mr Johnson allegedly pushed Officer Wilson back into his car as he was trying to get out, and proceeded to physically assault the officer. At some point, they struggled over Mr Wilson's weapon. A shot was fired in the car, at which point the officer got out of vehicle, and shot Mr Brown.

According to Mr Belmar, there was a distance of 35ft between Mr Wilson and Mr Brown when he was shot
."


This is a bit strange. The police statement matches quite precisely with the witness statement, except for that bit. More precisely, the police statement has a hole in it, being that according to the police statement Officer Wilson got out of the car immediately after the shot was fired in the car and shot again immediately, yet at that time somehow Mr. Brown had put 35 feet between him and the cop car...instantly.

In a movie this would be called a convenient plot hole...

And of course there was no reason for the other five shots.


I don't know about a hole here. If you're running away you could get 30ish feet away before someone could unbuckle a seat belt, get out of a car, aim and fire a weapon (6 times in this case). That said, if the only firearm in question was the officers I'm not sure why he would have felt threatened with the suspect 30 feet away. I mean if the guy had his own gun, why would he have allegedly reached for the officers one?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:26 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
But I have no reason to suspect that sloppy journalism means outright fabrication. It is easier to suppose that Brown did attack a cop who claimed to receive injuries, a account police witnesses corroborate, than to suppose that journalists and police are interested in covering up a unwarranted shooting in broad daylight.
It doesn't need to be outright fabrication on the part of the journalists, it just needs to be one overly credulous journalist paying attention only to those witnesses who are already on the cop's side (none of them eyewitnesses, mind you, so their being on the cop's side means they heard about what happened from him). As I said, her story didn't get published, possibly because it was shitty journalism and her claims didn't have sufficient backup to meet even the low standard of evidence demanded by most of today's newspapers.


We have at least two pieces of concrete evidence that are not subject to the journalist leaning towards one side or the other: One, we have the autopsy results that contradict the claim that Brown was running away and shot in the back (he had no wounds from that direction); and two, we have the fact that the cop sustained a head injury that is consistent with being punched in the face.


cphite wrote:Or... maybe Wilson is telling the truth? Maybe, as all of the actual hard evidence suggests, this kid really did attack the officer and was shot in self-defense?


Bullshit.

Did you miss the part where the shots to the arm are completely inconsistent with an attacking person being shot but entirely consistent with someone raising their hands.

True the autopsy suggest Brown was facing the cop rather than running away, but it strongly suggests he was surrendering (in fact, the doctor commented that the shot through the top of the head exiting where it did would only be possible if bent 90° or, with knees bent and getting on the ground (i.e. to surrender)).

The autopsy suggests that the eyewitness reports were not 100% accurate (but they never are), but it strongly suggests that they were correct that Brown was co-operating. If this weren't the case, the police would have been damn sure to have released their autopsy report (which was completed well before the private one and had more information available, such as the position of bullets when they were removed).

The hard evidence is all that, when shot, Brown was no threat to the cop and had committed no crime other than jaywalking.

lutzj wrote:
Adam H wrote:Who the fuck cares if Brown robbed the store? He's innocent until proven guilty by a judge or jury - which he never will be now that he's dead - so the police officer killed an innocent man. If we find out after the fact that the man was guilty, it doesn't matter - the police officer's motivations didn't change.


No sane person has suggested that people should be subject to extrajudicial killings for robbing convenience stores. But if Brown were fleeing a crime, that would explain why he found it necessary to assault a police officer when stopped in the street, lending credence to the notion that he assaulted a police officer after being stopped in the street.


Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:46 pm UTC

The New York Times has a piece on the conflicting stories. Some snippets.
The fatal confrontation began on Aug. 9 shortly after the police received reports that two men had robbed a convenience store in Ferguson. Officer Wilson, who was not responding to the robbery, had stopped to speak with Mr. Brown and a friend, Dorian Johnson. The Ferguson police chief, Thomas Jackson, said that it was around the time that Officer Wilson started talking to the two that he realized they fit the description of the suspects in the convenience store robbery.

A lawyer for Mr. Johnson said that his client was interviewed by the F.B.I. and the St. Louis County police last week for nearly four hours. In that interview, Mr. Johnson admitted that he and Mr. Brown had stolen cigarillos from the store, said the lawyer, Freeman R. Bosley Jr.

James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown’s hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.

“I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him,” Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. “The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.”
None of this excuses the shooting. But as with most things, it isn't as cut and dry as people might wish it to be. The article goes into greater detail . A good read if you don't mind being reminded about how fucked up this country is.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:05 pm UTC

Rashomon; great in movies, fucking awful in real life.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:41 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.


Apparently not great evidence since that Nytimes article has the other man's (Dorian Johnson) lawyer saying that Johnson admitted that he and Brown did steal cigarillos from the store.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Adam H » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:54 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.


Apparently not great evidence since that Nytimes article has the other man's (Dorian Johnson) lawyer saying that Johnson admitted that he and Brown did steal cigarillos from the store.

Again, who the fuck cares?

If he did rob the store, then a policeman was attempting to apprehend an unarmed suspect and shot him 6 times.

If he didn't rob the store, then a policeman was attempting to apprehend an unarmed suspect and shot him 6 times.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:20 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
Chen wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.


Apparently not great evidence since that Nytimes article has the other man's (Dorian Johnson) lawyer saying that Johnson admitted that he and Brown did steal cigarillos from the store.

Again, who the fuck cares?

If he did rob the store, then a policeman was attempting to apprehend an unarmed suspect and shot him 6 times.

If he didn't rob the store, then a policeman was attempting to apprehend an unarmed suspect and shot him 6 times.


The difference would be the potential behaviours of Brown when facing a cop. If he had just robbed a store, he was far more likely to do something stupid, which could corroborate withe the cop's version of self-defense. That's a lot of "if"s and "could"s anyway, and the evidences seem to be piling up against the police.
Last edited by PolakoVoador on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:53 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:21 pm UTC

For what its worth, the FBI is currently run by an African American named Eric Holder, who wanted to do more in the previous "race relations" disaster of Zimmerman. (But by the time it became a controversy, it was too late for the Justice Department to intervene).

Eric Holder has authorized the FBI to autopsy Brown's body a 3rd time, and has put 40 FBI agents on the case. Remember that the FBI has a different master (ultimately Eric Holder) than the local police department. So I'm quite interested to hear what the FBI has to say after all of this. They're late to the party, but I'm curious which way their evidence will go. At very least, the sheer numbers of federal agents breathing down the necks of the local cops sends a message. Furgison has 53 local cops, and now 40 FBI agents have joined the investigation.

Based on the situation, I'd have to say that the FBI will be the "tiebreaker" to this controversy. Outside of a generic Op-Ed in the local paper..., Eric Holder / FBI haven't really talked much about their evidence.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:22 pm UTC

Just read the NY Times article (was waiting for a meeting). The guy in the video was likely Brown. It says that several witnesses saw Brown fighting the officer in the car before running after a shot was fired, officer shot again, Brown turned around (witnesses can't agree whether he started running back towards the car), then officer unloaded.

Getting assaulted and killing someone after the assault is 2nd or 3rd degree murder. But thin blue line and all...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:29 pm UTC

Fighting the officer is consistent with both stories, though, since the friend walking with Brown said the cop reached out and grabbed him. Which one of them went for the gun is probably going to be impossible to ascertain, since there were probably just two people who saw that part up close, and one of them ended up murdering the other. (Yes, it may be second-degree homicide if Brown is the one who first went for the gun, but regardless of what the courts decide I refuse to call the subsequent 5-6 successful shots "manslaughter".)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.


Apparently not great evidence since that Nytimes article has the other man's (Dorian Johnson) lawyer saying that Johnson admitted that he and Brown did steal cigarillos from the store.


Last I checked, we have the owner of the store saying it wasn't him.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:32 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:For what its worth, the FBI is currently run by an African American named Eric Holder, who wanted to do more in the previous "race relations" disaster of Zimmerman. (But by the time it became a controversy, it was too late for the Justice Department to intervene).

Eric Holder has authorized the FBI to autopsy Brown's body a 3rd time, and has put 40 FBI agents on the case. Remember that the FBI has a different master (ultimately Eric Holder) than the local police department. So I'm quite interested to hear what the FBI has to say after all of this. They're late to the party, but I'm curious which way their evidence will go. At very least, the sheer numbers of federal agents breathing down the necks of the local cops sends a message. Furgison has 53 local cops, and now 40 FBI agents have joined the investigation.

Based on the situation, I'd have to say that the FBI will be the "tiebreaker" to this controversy. Outside of a generic Op-Ed in the local paper..., Eric Holder / FBI haven't really talked much about their evidence.

That's Hysterical.
The Local Boyz still outnumber them.

How well organized are those Local Boyz?
What is the FBI like, these days?

Different units are different ways, I suppose.
Are they not the ones that are fascinated with PaperWork?

Today that have added Digital Data to their list of Fascinating Stuff?
Poor Them....

How fast can they go through Digital Data?
On every Employee of the Ferguson Police Department.

Some are going to do Observation, too.
(right) They might take turns.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:43 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Chen wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:Except we have evidence that Brown didn't rob the shop so, false premise.


Apparently not great evidence since that Nytimes article has the other man's (Dorian Johnson) lawyer saying that Johnson admitted that he and Brown did steal cigarillos from the store.


Last I checked, we have the owner of the store saying it wasn't him.


Given that shop owners predicament I'd disavow that the store even exists...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:41 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:If you seriously believe those numbers are the result of anything other than racism in a town 65% black then you are completely oblivious to the facts.
If you are going to do a serious analysis, you have to take more into account.

The real question IMO is how many new hires are black vs. white. We aren't asking how racist the police force was 10 years ago.


No, actually, a law enforcement agency that is vastly nonrepresentational of the population it supposedly serves and protects is a problem regardless of why it happened. Because if you put a majority white organization enforcing laws in a majority black community, the racism of the hiring decisions aren't going to matter, the racism of the cops (and heightened sense of us-vs-them) will be your problem. For example, you might have a group of cops who feel the need to go to war as soon as the population starts gathering in any sort of number....

leady wrote:But it doesn't make it a racial execution or warrant 5 nights of running street battles


A group of people with tanks and assault weapons tossing tear gas at protestors and journalists is not actually a battle.

Battles generally have casualties on both sides. And generally everyone is armed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby lutzj » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:51 pm UTC

Belial wrote:No, actually, a law enforcement agency that is vastly nonrepresentational of the population it supposedly serves and protects is a problem regardless of why it happened. Because if you put a majority white organization enforcing laws in a majority black community, the racism of the hiring decisions aren't going to matter, the racism of the cops (and heightened sense of us-vs-them) will be your problem. For example, you might have a group of cops who feel the need to go to war as soon as the population starts gathering in any sort of number....



How would you fix this problem? Expand the police force at great expense to bring on dozens of black officers? Fire a bunch of white ones, probably leading to a showdown with the trade union? Prevent black people from moving to Ferguson, or white people from leaving, so that the demographic shift never happens in the first place?

The only fix that is practicable, and not itself racist, is to ensure that recruitment hits all areas of the community equally, that hiring is non-discriminatory (if I had to guess, this would be the main issue in Ferguson), and perhaps also encouraging young black people to become police officers. I doubt that these options are being used as much as they should be. But even if pursued aggressively, those policies can take a generation or two to take effect.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:01 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Adam H wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:If you seriously believe those numbers are the result of anything other than racism in a town 65% black then you are completely oblivious to the facts.
If you are going to do a serious analysis, you have to take more into account.

The real question IMO is how many new hires are black vs. white. We aren't asking how racist the police force was 10 years ago.


No, actually, a law enforcement agency that is vastly nonrepresentational of the population it supposedly serves and protects is a problem regardless of why it happened. Because if you put a majority white organization enforcing laws in a majority black community, the racism of the hiring decisions aren't going to matter, the racism of the cops (and heightened sense of us-vs-them) will be your problem. For example, you might have a group of cops who feel the need to go to war as soon as the population starts gathering in any sort of number....

leady wrote:But it doesn't make it a racial execution or warrant 5 nights of running street battles


A group of people with tanks and assault weapons tossing tear gas at protestors and journalists is not actually a battle.

Battles generally have casualties on both sides. And generally everyone is armed.

Not to pick a fight with you, Belial.

But; If there are no casualties on one side and a lot of casualties on the other side.
For someone, that was a successful battle.

One battle does not win the War.
One battle is a Morale Booster.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:35 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
Belial wrote:No, actually, a law enforcement agency that is vastly nonrepresentational of the population it supposedly serves and protects is a problem regardless of why it happened. Because if you put a majority white organization enforcing laws in a majority black community, the racism of the hiring decisions aren't going to matter, the racism of the cops (and heightened sense of us-vs-them) will be your problem. For example, you might have a group of cops who feel the need to go to war as soon as the population starts gathering in any sort of number....



How would you fix this problem? Expand the police force at great expense to bring on dozens of black officers? Fire a bunch of white ones, probably leading to a showdown with the trade union? Prevent black people from moving to Ferguson, or white people from leaving, so that the demographic shift never happens in the first place?

The only fix that is practicable, and not itself racist, is to ensure that recruitment hits all areas of the community equally, that hiring is non-discriminatory (if I had to guess, this would be the main issue in Ferguson), and perhaps also encouraging young black people to become police officers. I doubt that these options are being used as much as they should be. But even if pursued aggressively, those policies can take a generation or two to take effect.


Indeed. As I've noted earlier, Ferguson was majority-White 20 years ago: on the order of 75% White. The Black Majority came up ink Ferguson for some reason in the past 20 years. When you have a city flip-flop its racial demographics, of course there will be racial tensions. And what was a normal police department 20 years ago is all of a sudden no longer representative of the new-fangled immigrants to the city.

Racial tension (and heck, tension in general) is going to exist when huge swaths of a different kind of population move into a city. Techies are being derided in San Francisco, Blacks probably are derided in the historically white-city of Ferguson.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:51 am UTC

It's been awhile since I took a math class, but I'm pretty sure 3 out of 53 black cops is also extremely disproportionate in a city that's 25% black.

But the thing is, if you want more black police officers you have to stop anti-black police brutality *first*.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:01 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's been awhile since I took a math class, but I'm pretty sure 3 out of 53 black cops is also extremely disproportionate in a city that's 25% black.

But the thing is, if you want more black police officers you have to stop anti-black police brutality *first*.

Somehow, I think that is an untrue statement.
How?

It just is.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:21 am UTC

How is it untrue?

You think a lot of black folks are going to be enthusiastic about joining a police force that brutalizes their community?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:21 am UTC

lutzj wrote:How would you fix this problem? Expand the police force at great expense to bring on dozens of black officers? Fire a bunch of white ones, probably leading to a showdown with the trade union? Prevent black people from moving to Ferguson, or white people from leaving, so that the demographic shift never happens in the first place?

The only fix that is practicable, and not itself racist, is to ensure that recruitment hits all areas of the community equally, that hiring is non-discriminatory (if I had to guess, this would be the main issue in Ferguson), and perhaps also encouraging young black people to become police officers. I doubt that these options are being used as much as they should be. But even if pursued aggressively, those policies can take a generation or two to take effect.
Put the force under Federal control and mandate new training to deal with the effects of Racism. Possibly some grant money for body cameras. Fix what you have. Officers will either get with the program or leave. I'm unsure if racial quotas can be used in this situation, the courts have been chipping away at that possibility. The other possibility is to merge the department with another larger department with a larger black workforce.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:27 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It's been awhile since I took a math class, but I'm pretty sure 3 out of 53 black cops is also extremely disproportionate in a city that's 25% black.


Not necessarily. If the African American community were not generating criminology majors or whatever requirements of that City require, then its not necessarily racism. Still, they can attempt to get African American police officers from outside of the city, but I doubt that happens very often in practice.

gmalivuk wrote:How is it untrue?

You think a lot of black folks are going to be enthusiastic about joining a police force that brutalizes their community?


Or they can take a more practical solution and hire qualified African American Police Officers from outside the community to bootstrap the process. Cities aren't islands.

morriswalters wrote:
lutzj wrote:How would you fix this problem? Expand the police force at great expense to bring on dozens of black officers? Fire a bunch of white ones, probably leading to a showdown with the trade union? Prevent black people from moving to Ferguson, or white people from leaving, so that the demographic shift never happens in the first place?

The only fix that is practicable, and not itself racist, is to ensure that recruitment hits all areas of the community equally, that hiring is non-discriminatory (if I had to guess, this would be the main issue in Ferguson), and perhaps also encouraging young black people to become police officers. I doubt that these options are being used as much as they should be. But even if pursued aggressively, those policies can take a generation or two to take effect.
Put the force under Federal control and mandate new training to deal with the effects of Racism. Possibly some grant money for body cameras. Fix what you have. Officers will either get with the program or leave. I'm unsure if racial quotas can be used in this situation, the courts have been chipping away at that possibility. The other possibility is to merge the department with another larger department with a larger black workforce.


The city is 70% Black. The problem is supposed to be self-fixing if they really are a functioning democracy. The problem is that either the districts are gerrymandered to all hell, or the Black population refuses to vote (or perhaps a combination of the two). Its clear that the leaders there do not represent the population any longer.

The more telling issue is that 5 out of 6 members of the city counsel are White. I'll have to check if Ferguson has an elected Sheriff... but if so, the 67%+ African vote probably can pick a Sheriff who cares about race relations. Otherwise, they can elect a mayor (or city counsel members) who can get a Sheriff who will clean house.

The Federal Government cannot solve this issue. Its distinctly a local issue, and the population living there needs to take responsibility.
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