Police misbehavior thread

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Chen
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:52 pm UTC

Those all sound like bona fide reasons to me.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:28 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Goal: Police force that, excepting for bona fide reasons*, does not treat suspects differently based on race, sex, gender, age, ethnicity, affluence, sexuality, religion, political affiliations, body modifications, disability, nor obesity.


many of those are not protected characteristics and saying they can't treat suspects differently leads to absurd conclusions like not being allowed to rule someone out of a murder with a sniper rifle based on disability:blindness.

Or not being able to take into account that someone is a supporter of nambla in a sex abuse case because "political affiliations".

Or not being able to take into account gang membership tatoos because "body modifications".

Or not being able to take into account the suspects obesity when there's really really deep footprints at the murder scene.


Those are all bona fide reasons.

If your witness said the criminal had a tattoo of a dragon on his left arm, you damn well start questioning people with dragon tattoos on their left arms. If your witness made no mention of tattoos, you don't get to harass people with tattoos just because tattooed people are obviously guilty.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:38 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Goal: Police force that, excepting for bona fide reasons*, does not treat suspects differently based on race, sex, gender, age, ethnicity, affluence, sexuality, religion, political affiliations, body modifications, disability, nor obesity.


many of those are not protected characteristics and saying they can't treat suspects differently leads to absurd conclusions like not being allowed to rule someone out of a murder with a sniper rifle based on disability:blindness.

Or not being able to take into account that someone is a supporter of nambla in a sex abuse case because "political affiliations".

Or not being able to take into account gang membership tatoos because "body modifications".

Or not being able to take into account the suspects obesity when there's really really deep footprints at the murder scene.


You know what we mean (from Wikipedia): Discrimination as disadvantageous treatment or consideration.

So reviewing your list:

Ruling out someone who is blind, when the crime required someone sighted, is not disadvantageous for the blind person (or the sighted person).

NAMBLA is a gray organization, and gang membership in a known criminal gang isn't even gray. This is like saying that we couldn't investigate someone who belonged to the Mafia, because of their organizational association. You're reaching.

Deep footprints are evidence and it isn't disadvantageous to look for someone heavy, if you have evidence of someone heavy. Disadvantageous would be when there are no footprints, but you only look at obese people because you happen not to like obese people.

...and mostly that's what discrimination comes down to. "Bubba" assumes Abe is a criminal because he's black, Muslim, Jew, obese, a young male, poor as dirt, gay, or a member of the NRA; when none of those things are associated particularly with criminality (except in Bubba's bigoted beliefs).
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:26 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
mosc wrote:
sardia wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/police-misconduct-cleveland/19893125/?showmenu=true

The doj calling out Cleveland police as widely incompetent and violent.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/form ... olice-are/
Police officer reporting racists in his department.

Now show me proof you aren't racist leady. Statistical proof.

You know there is a world where these things are true and where the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner were not homicides. I call it reality. It's an ugly place with lots of immorality but also you know, sometimes people do stupid things and sometimes accidents happen and it's generally not part of some huge conspiracy against you.

I agree with your cause. I disagree with the focus on Brown and Garner. To me, the cause is just and has plenty of evidence to support it. Brown and Garner being murdered? Not so much. Someone wears an "I can't breathe" t-shirt, I just think you lack a healthy skepticism necessary for our modern world. Frankly, that takes away from the very cause that person is trying to support.

I'm surprised you are questioning the garner case. Its one of the more clear cut ones, not to mention on video. Compare garner to that racist clive d Bundy. One sold cigarettes illegally, the other stole from federal lands, and brought mobs wielding guns while threatening insurrection. The difference in treatment is stunning, not just from the cops, but from libertarians and conservatives.
Also, you might want to get tested for hidden bias towards minorities. Its not as subtle as you may think.

Edit fixed Bundy name


Yeah, Garner case seems fairly strong on evidence. Granted, I suspect that the difference here is not just racism...but that the Bundy lot was heavily armed, and Garner was emphatically not. Stole from federal lands is not quite accurate, but certainly, one can argue that the police were...rather more motivated not to escalate to force by the presense of a lot of opposing force. In the Garner case, we have a cop that seems to lack any significant deterrence from violence whatsoever.

Disincentives certainly matter with crime in general, surely they also matter with regards to criminal police activity.

Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane. When people are saying that the power to tax is the power to destroy, THIS is what is being referenced. No threat was posed to anyone by some dude selling a couple of cigarettes. Like...maybe you hand the guy a ticket. Maybe. Seriously, not that big of a deal.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:51 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane.

You can do what you want now if it's not violent without being arrested? Or is not complying with officers who think you did a non-violent crime your civil right?

Officer: You're under arrest
Civilian: Leave me alone
Officer: You're resisting arrest and will be forcefully taken down
Civilian: keep your hands off me
...

This is not going to end non-violently in any type of non-fantasy world.

Taking him down was done as best they could and inadvertently resulted in his death and was clearly not intended if you watch the whole video.

There is part of me that says putting a 350 pound asmatic man on his stomache and pushing him down to ensure he can't get up is asking for breathing problems but I fail to see another workable strategy for the officers to take him into custody when he clearly wasn't willing to go peacefully.

Police brutality it is not.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:00 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane.

You can do what you want now if it's not violent without being arrested? Or is not complying with officers who think you did a non-violent crime your civil right?

Officer: You're under arrest
Civilian: Leave me alone
Officer: You're resisting arrest and will be forcefully taken down
Civilian: keep your hands off me
...

This is not going to end non-violently in any type of non-fantasy world.

Taking him down was done as best they could and inadvertently resulted in his death and was clearly not intended if you watch the whole video.

There is part of me that says putting a 350 pound asmatic man on his stomache and pushing him down to ensure he can't get up is asking for breathing problems but I fail to see another workable strategy for the officers to take him into custody when he clearly wasn't willing to go peacefully.

Police brutality it is not.

There just seems to be nothing nice to say to you. You can't be reasoned with, To break down this post here we'd have to spend pages addressing your wrong assumptions before we could even get back to how wrong post is. It sucks that people like you exist.
Last edited by Zcorp on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:13 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:11 pm UTC

What exactly am I not listening to you on? I hear your outrage. I'm upset somebody died too. I just don't blame someone right away and try to understand the situation that lead to their death. For example if a kid jumps out in front of a car and gets killed I'm not going to crucify the driver as a homicidal maniac without evidence that they did something wrong. Hitting the kid isn't wrong in and of itself from the driver's perspective. You can be outraged about the event all you want but the driver may have had little or no decisive roll in the outcome.

Similarly, the officers in question have a job to do and it includes arresting people. It includes arresting people who refuse to be arrested. That's going to be a somewhat violent situation and you expect in some situations the person you're trying to arrest, even if they're not considered "armed and dangerous" is going to get hurt. Dead? No. But there are extenuating circumstances which I detailed that are not "officer dun go psycho and killed a dude".

There's this picture of the officer with his hands around the neck of Mr. Gardner. It's real. It's also a screen grab of a video. The time of contact between his hands and Mr. Gardner's neck is extremely short. He did not intentionally choke him to death nor did he even have time to say "I can't breathe" before the officer's hands were OFF of his neck. The picture is taken from the video intentionally to distort the event into a moment in time you can play out in your brain for much longer than it actually happened.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:22 pm UTC

mosc wrote:What exactly am I not listening to you on? I hear your outrage. I'm upset somebody died too. I just don't blame someone right away and try to understand the situation that lead to their death. For example if a kid jumps out in front of a car and gets killed I'm not going to crucify the driver as a homicidal maniac without evidence that they did something wrong. Hitting the kid isn't wrong in and of itself from the driver's perspective. You can be outraged about the event all you want but the driver may have had little or no decisive roll in the outcome.

Cool example. Why are you trying to associated choking someone with an action that one of the individuals has no control over?

Similarly, the officers in question have a job to do and it includes arresting people.

The job of the officer is in theory to enforce our laws in such a way that society is better.


There's this picture of the officer with his hands around the neck of Mr. Gardner. It's real. It's also a screen grab of a video. The time of contact between his hands and Mr. Gardner's neck is extremely short. He did not intentionally choke him to death nor did he even have time to say "I can't breathe" before the officer's hands were OFF of his neck. The picture is taken from the video intentionally to distort the event into a moment in time you can play out in your brain for much longer than it actually happened.

I don't care what you say you've seen. You don't understand what you saw. You are making really wrong and stupid assumptions so that you can hold your belief that what the officers did was ok. Do you even know how long it takes to choke someone out?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:27 pm UTC

We just gave you an example of a white guy brazenly committing a crime, admitting to it , and openly defying the police. Was not hurt at all. Pay attention.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

Garner wasn't 'choked out'. He was an unhealthy man who was manhandled into cardiac arrest. The eggshell skull rule* would mean that this is manslaughter, if the police did anything unlawful in their handling. Like, you know, using a chokehold that is explicitly forbidden from being used.

*If due to your negligent actions a person is severely injured, you are liable even if the actions wouldn't have harmed a healthy person as severely. For example, if you wrestle someone to the ground and this causes them to go into cardiac arrest, even if a healthy person would've been fine you are responsible.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:48 pm UTC

The video is very clear that there was no choke hold used. The officer had his entire weight held by his left hand on Gardner's neck while he was off the ground. Not a hold. There was a moment, a very fleeting moment captured in a screen grab that goes around, that he has both hands together with gardner's neck in between. It is milliseconds, not a minute. Watch the whole video, don't look at a picture. It's very clear.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:55 pm UTC

mosc wrote:The video is very clear that there was no choke hold used. The officer had his entire weight held by his left hand on Gardner's neck while he was off the ground. Not a hold. There was a moment, a very fleeting moment captured in a screen grab that goes around, that he has both hands together with gardner's neck in between. It is milliseconds, not a minute. Watch the whole video, don't look at a picture. It's very clear.

Again, do you know how long it takes to choke someone out?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

What the hell are you asking? Choking someone out meaning kill them? Make them pass out? A choke hold is about cutting blood flow off to the brain causing the person to pass out. The bloodflow to Mr. Garner's brain was never cut off. His windpipe was damaged and he laid a tremendous amount of weight on his belly without the strength to breathe with asmatic lungs through a constrained airway. That's what killed him. He was not "choked out". He said "I can't breathe" 11 times after hitting the ground. He was having trouble breathing but did not have any hands around his neck when he said those words. His windpipe had been damaged. Again, WTF are you talking about? Did you actually watch a video clip of this event longer than 5 seconds?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:00 pm UTC

mosc wrote:What the hell are you asking? Choking someone out meaning kill them? Make them pass out? A choke hold is about cutting blood flow off to the brain causing the person to pass out. The bloodflow to Mr. Garner's brain was never cut off. His windpipe was damaged and he laid a tremendous amount of weight on his belly without the strength to breathe with asmatic lungs through a constrained airway. That's what killed him. He was not "choked out". He said "I can't breathe" 11 times after hitting the ground. He was having trouble breathing but did not have any hands around his neck when he said those words. His windpipe had been damaged. Again, WTF are you talking about? Did you actually watch a video clip of this event longer than 5 seconds?

I'm talking about a choke out...Do I really need to explain to you what that is? here's a hint, if you don't know google will tell you very quickly...

Again, how long do you think it takes to choke someone out?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:03 pm UTC

Do you know the gross national product of Zimbabwe? Here's a hint, I don't see how it's related either.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:04 pm UTC

Image

here you see a couple of white dudebros carrying loaded (and quite likely chambered) AR-15's around inside of a target. notice their astounding lack of police wrestling them to the ground and their marked not-deadness

Image
here's a picture of one of the cliven bundy protest yahoos aiming a loaded weapon at a crowd of people...some of whom are federal agents. notice is complete lack of deadness


Image

here you see the face of a man who was shot, while carrying a toy gun around, in a store, that notably sells toy guns. notice his complete and total overwhelming surplus of deadness



you can imagine these things mean whatever you want. but the fact that a bunch of white dudes can walk around with REAL guns in public places, and on some occasions ACTUALLY point them at people, and a black person can't should throw up some flags.

I live in an open carry state, and very few people in this state are not aware that it's an open carry state. I can assure you that there are VERY few black people who could get away with actually legally carrying a weapon in view. but I see white people with all manner of firearms on their belts at any give point in time. last time I went out for Mexican I counted at least 6 different side arms within view of my table.

mosc wrote:What the hell are you asking? Choking someone out meaning kill them? Make them pass out? A choke hold is about cutting blood flow off to the brain causing the person to pass out. The bloodflow to Mr. Garner's brain was never cut off. His windpipe was damaged and he laid a tremendous amount of weight on his belly without the strength to breathe with asmatic lungs through a constrained airway. That's what killed him. He was not "choked out". He said "I can't breathe" 11 times after hitting the ground. He was having trouble breathing but did not have any hands around his neck when he said those words. His windpipe had been damaged. Again, WTF are you talking about? Did you actually watch a video clip of this event longer than 5 seconds?
how exactly was his windpipe damaged? have you noticed that there was an autopsy released?

An autopsy by the city’s medical examiner found that Mr. Garner’s death was a homicide resulting from the chokehold — a maneuver banned by the Police Department in 1993 — and the compression of his chest by police officers.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:08 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Do you know the gross national product of Zimbabwe? Here's a hint, I don't see how it's related either.

That you don't see how it is related is kind of the point. You don't have a clue what you are talking about but want to have an opinion anyway.

Again, how long do you think it takes to choke someone out?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:15 pm UTC

Actually, I think mosc doesn't have a clue what you're talking about, seeing as how you've refused to elaborate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:17 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Actually, I think mosc doesn't have a clue what you're talking about, seeing as how you've refused to elaborate.

Both, but I'm not asking him to understand what I'm talking about, at least not yet, and again that he doesn't know is part of the point. I'm asking him to tell me how long he thinks it takes to choke someone out.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:31 pm UTC

Depends how rough you want to get. Cutting off the air can take a couple of minutes. If you go for the jugular, it can take a matter of seconds. But if you slam into the jugular, the spike in blood pressure could drop someone nearly instantly (note that this can cause serious injury).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:53 pm UTC

I would point out that the Black Panthers open carried in Oakland, California in the 60's, a period that was more racist than today. And I'm just as sure Blacks carry today in my home city, open or not. Garner died of multiple causes, and most of them were the responsibility of the arresting officers. But his physical condition didn't help, not his desire to fight back. After being arrested 30 times he had to know the routine. And the Grand Jury didn't indict. Put not your faith in the Grand Jury. That is the system at work. The other parts of the system are still working, that would be the feds, who didn't didn't shoot Bundy. At the risk of being called a racist, the Uniform Crime Report suggests that Black should fear other Blacks. The homicide numbers show the numbers for Black on Black murders almost the same as White on White murders despite Blacks being just 13 percent of the overall population. Don't trust over simplistic explanations. Racism isn't always as clear cut as it seems to be. And society on both sides of the line have been damaged by it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zcorp » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Depends how rough you want to get. Cutting off the air can take a couple of minutes. If you go for the jugular, it can take a matter of seconds. But if you slam into the jugular, the spike in blood pressure could drop someone nearly instantly (note that this can cause serious injury).

I know how long it takes. I want to know how long mosc thinks it takes. He has made, at least two statements so far about the length of the duration of contact with Garner's neck. He claims to have watched the video, so he should know that there is contact with his neck for ~16 seconds.

Now to make his claim that is a 'extremely short amount of time' we have to understand what type of time frame we are talking about, what length of time can be considered short or long in this scenario. Since I started asking how long he thinks it take to choke someone out, in an attempt for him to learn about that time frame himself, he as further revealed his ignorance. He seems to believe that the officer only has 'both hands together' for 'milliseconds' and not 'a minute.'

Anyone who actually watches the video can clearly see that the officer has his hands together for about half of the total duration in which there is contact with Garner's neck. Then anyone that knows how long to choke someone out would laugh at the statement that 'it was for less than a minute' used as an argument for being a short amount of time to choke someone.

You have to be a special kind of stupid to make yourself look dumber when being called out on how wrong you are.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:00 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I would point out that the Black Panthers open carried in Oakland, California in the 60's, a period that was more racist than today. And I'm just as sure Blacks carry today in my home city, open or not. Garner died of multiple causes, and most of them were the responsibility of the arresting officers. But his physical condition didn't help, not his desire to fight back. After being arrested 30 times he had to know the routine. And the Grand Jury didn't indict. Put not your faith in the Grand Jury. That is the system at work. The other parts of the system are still working, that would be the feds, who didn't didn't shoot Bundy. At the risk of being called a racist, the Uniform Crime Report suggests that Black should fear other Blacks. The homicide numbers show the numbers for Black on Black murders almost the same as White on White murders despite Blacks being just 13 percent of the overall population. Don't trust over simplistic explanations. Racism isn't always as clear cut as it seems to be. And society on both sides of the line have been damaged by it.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/state ... nd-murder/
Your post is out of context. Whites kill the majority of whites because murder is a social crime . it had nothing to do with racism in cops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:10 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
morriswalters wrote:I would point out that the Black Panthers open carried in Oakland, California in the 60's, a period that was more racist than today. And I'm just as sure Blacks carry today in my home city, open or not. Garner died of multiple causes, and most of them were the responsibility of the arresting officers. But his physical condition didn't help, not his desire to fight back. After being arrested 30 times he had to know the routine. And the Grand Jury didn't indict. Put not your faith in the Grand Jury. That is the system at work. The other parts of the system are still working, that would be the feds, who didn't didn't shoot Bundy. At the risk of being called a racist, the Uniform Crime Report suggests that Black should fear other Blacks. The homicide numbers show the numbers for Black on Black murders almost the same as White on White murders despite Blacks being just 13 percent of the overall population. Don't trust over simplistic explanations. Racism isn't always as clear cut as it seems to be. And society on both sides of the line have been damaged by it.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/state ... nd-murder/
Your post is out of context. Whites kill the majority of whites because murder is a social crime . it had nothing to do with racism in cops.

A more appropriate statistic is the amount of police interactions that end in the death or serious injury when the subject is black vs when the subject is white. Which.....constitutes a fairly large disparity. Even removing injury/death and just going on drug related interaction....how much more likely is a white kid with the absolute minimum amount of pot on them to be let off with a warning than a black kid of the same age.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:30 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane. When people are saying that the power to tax is the power to destroy, THIS is what is being referenced. No threat was posed to anyone by some dude selling a couple of cigarettes. Like...maybe you hand the guy a ticket. Maybe. Seriously, not that big of a deal.

Did they actually have any evidence of him doing that? As far as I read they just suspected him because he had done it before.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:10 am UTC

Relevant:http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/03/20/149006684/trayvon-martin-shooting-what-if-shooter-was-black
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:48 am UTC

Wow. That's amazing Kryten. I think that's worth quoting in case people skip over your link.

Correll has been testing this hypothesis since 2002. Mostly, he's looked at bias when police officers decided to shoot, but he has also tested other members of the community.

Here's how his test works: He gives the participant two buttons: Shoot or don't shoot. Then he presents pictures of black men and white men. Some are holding guns, others are holding harmless things like wallets and cellphones. The point is to shoot the guys with guns. What Correll has found is that no matter the race or the age of the shooter, he or she is more likely to fire at an unarmed black man. They're also less likely to shoot an armed white man.

"Everybody was faster to shoot a black target than a white target, and the magnitude of that bias was equivalent" regardless of race, said Correll.

...

Correll points out another important point of his research: Age hasn't mattered in his research. So, participants who grew up in a more overtly racist time were just as likely to shoot the black target as younger participants who have grown up in a country that just elected its first black president.

It's a bleak landscape, Correll admits, and he hasn't found any evidence that cultural sensitivity training curbs people's biases.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:00 am UTC

sardia wrote:Your post is out of context. Whites kill the majority of whites because murder is a social crime . it had nothing to do with racism in cops.
It isn't the fact that Blacks kill Blacks and Whites kill Whites, it's that the rate is six or so time greater with Blacks for the same crime. One might expect that the White rate would be greater. Which if you chose to take it out of context could imply that Blacks are more prone to murder than Whites. There are many reasons why it is true, but the point is numbers, particularly imprecise ones are useless to put racism as the face of every police contact between cops and Blacks. The deaths of Garner and Brown could be the result of hyper violence in the police forces overall, with racism the minor component. That doesn't help Brown or Garner but is important in the overall context. The nature of the contacts, the facts that Blacks approach stops already feeling aggrieved, mixed with hyper violence of the part of the police is a recipe for disaster.



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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:03 am UTC

I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:35 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?
Is it wrong to believe differently than you?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:48 am UTC

Are we playing question tennis now?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:57 am UTC

mosc wrote:What the hell are you asking? Choking someone out meaning kill them? Make them pass out? A choke hold is about cutting blood flow off to the brain causing the person to pass out. The bloodflow to Mr. Garner's brain was never cut off. His windpipe was damaged and he laid a tremendous amount of weight on his belly without the strength to breathe with asmatic lungs through a constrained airway. That's what killed him. He was not "choked out". He said "I can't breathe" 11 times after hitting the ground. He was having trouble breathing but did not have any hands around his neck when he said those words. His windpipe had been damaged. Again, WTF are you talking about? Did you actually watch a video clip of this event longer than 5 seconds?

You're thinking about strangling someone. They are two different things.

Choking = cutting off air supply (which is why one chokes on food/inhaled foreign bodies)
Strangling = cutting off blood supply (to anywhere so you can have strangulated hernias, etc).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:18 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?

I do not know.

I think these deaths are caused by more than Racism.
Yes. Racism is a dangerous MotherFucker.

Violence in nature and culture Kills.
Racism without violence is simply limiting.

A mother with a limited child grieves.
So does a mother with a dead child.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:43 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?


Well one obvious one is that continuing to label these events racism, does seem to cause an immense amount of social discord. So if they are being mislabeled ....

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:58 am UTC

leady wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?


Well one obvious one is that continuing to label these events racism, does seem to cause an immense amount of social discord. So if they are being mislabeled ....

I see fear as a social problem.
I fear the men and women in uniform about as much as I can fear anyone.

Your point?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:13 am UTC

leady wrote:Well one obvious one is that continuing to label these events racism, does seem to cause an immense amount of social discord. So if they are being mislabeled ....


A am sorry, I don't see it being obvious. What is this social discord, and how is it a problem?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:28 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:You have to be a special kind of stupid to make yourself look dumber when being called out on how wrong you are.
Zcorp wrote: It sucks that people like you exist.

Zcorp, you are banned from this thread. Also, this is a warning about your general attitude in N&A. The next time you cross the line, you will be banned from the N&A board

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:11 am UTC

A am sorry, I don't see it being obvious. What is this social discord, and how is it a problem?


Rioting & looting based on eroneous media fueled race baiting would certainly one. "hands up" is still in the zeitgeist even after being proven to be nonsense.
Last edited by leady on Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:14 am UTC

No question tennis. I'm just not certain that I can add more to what I've already said. A short example perhaps. Wilson is a racist. This is your thesis. Prove it. And do so at the level expected in a court of law.

The event at or inside the car could have been initiated by Wilson. There is no doubt that he emptied a clip into Brown. Wilson certainly had to chase him down to do so. But where in all that is the racism? In a manner which can be proven. The event in itself isn't proof. To establish racism you would have to show a pattern of behavior based on events prior to that point. Can you do so?

Wilson could be incompetent. Or poorly trained. He could be exactly what we expect of our police, aggressive. He could be racist. Or he could be a all of those things. I know racism exists. I know that I am a racist, even though I have spent a lot of time trying not to be one. I think you might prove some police departments are. But you aren't trying to throw them in jail. Show me Wilson is. I think he might have committed manslaughter, maybe. But the process, as fucked up as it is, is running its course. And to this point he has gotten a pass. The Justice Department gets a shot next. After that is civil court and the lawsuits.

Now if you want to argue institutional racism is society in general and in the police overall, I'm on board. But it isn't the type where Wilson said I want to shoot a n***** tonight. Or at least I doubt that you can show it. Even if it's true. Now that is why.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:40 pm UTC

The reason I have to keep asking you that question is because you keep going on about how impossible it would be to "prove" Wilson killed Brown just because racism when I've never said otherwise.

I don't want these killer cops charged with being racist, I want them charged with (some degree of) homicide.

The racism that I have the biggest problem with is that they are consistently *not* being charged with anything whatsoever. So whether an individual cop is racist or not, the message being sent to cops in general is that killing blck people is no big deal and you'll probably get away with it.
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Leady, the social discord you're seeing is the result of police consistently getting away with murdering black people. It is not the result of us pointing out that it's always black people they get away with murdering.

You sound like someone who argues against getting screened for cancer on the grounds that what we don't know can't hurt us.
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