Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?

Innocent until proven guilty? A judicial process that is hopefully a few steps above public lynchings? A system were evidence and facts are required to accuse someone of a crime?

Is that shit not pretty damn important to you too?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:00 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Leady, the social discord you're seeing is the result of police consistently getting away with murdering black people. It is not the result of us pointing out that it's always black people they get away with murdering.

You sound like someone who argues against getting screened for cancer on the grounds that what we don't know can't hurt us.


and I would argue that the police do get away with suspect homocide generally (some reasonably, some less so) and that referencing it as a black issue with false details in the media causes the discord.

My metaphor would be someone so paranoid about lung cancer, they get x-rayed every month and hence get cancer

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:05 pm UTC

leady wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Leady, the social discord you're seeing is the result of police consistently getting away with murdering black people. It is not the result of us pointing out that it's always black people they get away with murdering.

You sound like someone who argues against getting screened for cancer on the grounds that what we don't know can't hurt us.


and I would argue that the police do get away with suspect homocide generally (some reasonably, some less so) and that referencing it as a black issue with false details in the media causes the discord.

My metaphor would be someone so paranoid about lung cancer, they get x-rayed every month and hence get cancer

a better metaphor would be someone who has all of the symptoms of lung cancer, and they get an x-ray every month that really kind of suggests that their problem MIGHT be lung cancer....but every doctor they go to says "nah....it's not lung cancer, have you tried eating more vegetables?"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:13 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The reason I have to keep asking you that question is because you keep going on about how impossible it would be to "prove" Wilson killed Brown just because racism when I've never said otherwise.

I don't want these killer cops charged with being racist, I want them charged with (some degree of) homicide.

The racism that I have the biggest problem with is that they are consistently *not* being charged with anything whatsoever. So whether an individual cop is racist or not, the message being sent to cops in general is that killing blck people is no big deal and you'll probably get away with it.
You say they killed because they were racist. But if what Wilson did was criminal and motivated by racism you have to connect the dots. If you can show it then you have a slam dunk. If you can't show it then you are left trying to show why he did it. The law, like it or not, gives him lots of latitude. You can't walk around it. I want them charged with a crime, But within the bounds of the law. I'll buy into some type of special prosecutor, to take the politics out of the equation.

Statistically I will swear that cops are at least as racist as society if not more racist. But what I can show with statistics is a fact about a group, not any individual. It isn't "fair" bit it is what it is. And you continually gloss over the idea that Blacks aren't the only one killed. They aren't. Cops seem to have a "shot first and let God sort it out" attitude. But given the amount of bias built into the system against Blacks in general and the greater level of poverty it isn't surprising that Blacks get killed at a greater rate.

Without data you will always have people who think that racism isn't involved. But if you can't quantify it, you can't prove it. Look, I know something is wrong, but the question in my mind is what exactly to do about it. And to continue the Cancer analogy everyone is playing with, doing a double Mastectomy and missing that the Cancer has metastasized elsewhere, won't save the patient.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?


Because accuracy matters, and unfounded accusations weaken an argument, not strengthen it. Police misbehavior is a problem even if it isn't racist. Don't kill a strong case by trying to shoehorn in every social crusade you might be interested in if the evidence isn't strong enough for it.

After all, are you gonna say Garner's death is entirely ok even if it's somehow proven that it happened for non-racist reasons?

PeteP wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane. When people are saying that the power to tax is the power to destroy, THIS is what is being referenced. No threat was posed to anyone by some dude selling a couple of cigarettes. Like...maybe you hand the guy a ticket. Maybe. Seriously, not that big of a deal.

Did they actually have any evidence of him doing that? As far as I read they just suspected him because he had done it before.


I don't care if he did it or not. Even if he did it, it doesn't justify the reaction. If he did or not isn't really relevant. The cop doesn't need to escalate to force either way. No credible threat existed to anyone, therefore, there is no reason to escalate.

DSenette wrote:you can imagine these things mean whatever you want. but the fact that a bunch of white dudes can walk around with REAL guns in public places, and on some occasions ACTUALLY point them at people, and a black person can't should throw up some flags.

I live in an open carry state, and very few people in this state are not aware that it's an open carry state. I can assure you that there are VERY few black people who could get away with actually legally carrying a weapon in view. but I see white people with all manner of firearms on their belts at any give point in time. last time I went out for Mexican I counted at least 6 different side arms within view of my table.



Uh, black dudes open carry too. In fact, in response to these killings, they have been. This has been a footnote in the media reporting, because it doesn't really fit the narrative.

Cops are notably more willing to open up on one dude carrying a toy gun then a whole bunch of them carrying guaranteed real ones. I suspect this is because the latter involves a high probability of danger to the cops themselves.

mosc wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Also, the idea that you need to escalate over some dude selling cigarettes is...insane.

You can do what you want now if it's not violent without being arrested? Or is not complying with officers who think you did a non-violent crime your civil right?

Officer: You're under arrest
Civilian: Leave me alone
Officer: You're resisting arrest and will be forcefully taken down
Civilian: keep your hands off me
...

This is not going to end non-violently in any type of non-fantasy world.

Taking him down was done as best they could and inadvertently resulted in his death and was clearly not intended if you watch the whole video.

There is part of me that says putting a 350 pound asmatic man on his stomache and pushing him down to ensure he can't get up is asking for breathing problems but I fail to see another workable strategy for the officers to take him into custody when he clearly wasn't willing to go peacefully.

Police brutality it is not.


Police threats do not justify police violence. No, you do NOT have to do whatever a policeman wants you to do in all circumstances. Or at least, you shouldn't.

Is it right to kill people to enforce such a minor law? Do you really think that every single law on the books is worth lives to enforce? Some, sure. But every trivial one like this?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?

Innocent until proven guilty? A judicial process that is hopefully a few steps above public lynchings? A system were evidence and facts are required to accuse someone of a crime?

Is that shit not pretty damn important to you too?

They are important... To everyone, including the black people killed by the cops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:47 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
mosc wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?

Innocent until proven guilty? A judicial process that is hopefully a few steps above public lynchings? A system were evidence and facts are required to accuse someone of a crime?

Is that shit not pretty damn important to you too?

They are important... To everyone, including the black people killed by the cops.

Even when I can see with my own eyes that it was mosc, I'm having a hard time believing anyone could write those words non-ironically.

"Innocent until proven guilty" makes sense with crimes because the consequence of being proved guilty is serious and possibly deadly. Being racist is not a crime. Being accused of being racist is not anything even a little bit like a lynching. The consequences of being called racist are virtually nil on average, and decidedly positive if you surround yourself with people who think blacks are getting too uppity.

These cops are the ones who summarily judged guilty and then committed extrajudicial homicide before any such innocence could be assessed. The cops are the ones most nearly engaging in public lynchings.

Yes, we would all like a judicial system that does better than public lynchings, which is why killer cops need to be held accountable for their actions.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:50 pm UTC

In fact, the comparison of the social function of cop-committed murders of black people with the social function of lynching has been made extensively and intelligently and I suggest you all google that shit up before you suggest for even a second that it's the cops who are being lynched.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

Wait, how is 'excessively harsh treatment of criminals because of race' the same as 'murdering people for trying to better themselves because of race'?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

Oh man now we're interested in analogical parity? Like, a minute ago when mosc was comparing "cops being held in any way accountable for their pattern of racist murders" to lynching, we were fine with that, but now that I'm comparing "racist murders by community authorities" to "racist murders by community authorities" we're worried the analogy might be missing some nuance?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
sardia wrote:
mosc wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I once again have to ask: What do you people expect to accomplish by continuing to bend over backwards to find possible excuses for how each individual case of cops killing unarmed black people might not be racism?

Innocent until proven guilty? A judicial process that is hopefully a few steps above public lynchings? A system were evidence and facts are required to accuse someone of a crime?

Is that shit not pretty damn important to you too?

They are important... To everyone, including the black people killed by the cops.

Even when I can see with my own eyes that it was mosc, I'm having a hard time believing anyone could write those words non-ironically.

"Innocent until proven guilty" makes sense with crimes because the consequence of being proved guilty is serious and possibly deadly. Being racist is not a crime. Being accused of being racist is not anything even a little bit like a lynching. The consequences of being called racist are virtually nil on average, and decidedly positive if you surround yourself with people who think blacks are getting too uppity.

These cops are the ones who summarily judged guilty and then committed extrajudicial homicide before any such innocence could be assessed. The cops are the ones most nearly engaging in public lynchings.

Yes, we would all like a judicial system that does better than public lynchings, which is why killer cops need to be held accountable for their actions.


While the cops do need to be punished, this course of "it doesn't hurt, so why not" is strange.

I'm sure if I called you a racist or any number of things right now, it would be fairly unlikely to affect you in any significant way. However, it would still certainly be rude to do so without a fair degree of certainty, yes? I think we're all on the same page there.

And false accusations CAN be damaging. People have had careers ended by them. Throwing around accusations casually without evidence is unwise. As for the positive...pssh. Nobody thinks you are labeling cops as racist in order to improve their social status. That's not even plausible.

Looking for evidence before labeling people is important. Even if they're people on the other side of the argument. Perhaps especially then.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, how is 'excessively harsh treatment of criminals because of race' the same as 'murdering people for trying to better themselves because of race'?
You're begging the question by referring to all of them as "criminals".

A lot of lynching victims had totally committed "crimes", too. (As in, people generally made up some crime as an excuse for the murder, because "he's black and we just don't like ni**ers" didn't fly all that well as a justification even back then.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:54 pm UTC

And in the vast majority of cases, they were petty criminals whose deaths were massively disproportionate retribution. I don't see 'police kill petty criminals for being black' as having the same effect/'purpose' as 'mob burns down The Black Wall Street for daring to have any money'.

Sure, excessive sentencing of black convicts, police brutality, etc etc, do make it harder for petty criminals to escape poverty and arguably starves the local communities of skilled workers/incomes, but it's not even close to the same as murdering the people who do become successful.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:02 pm UTC

Did you know that "lynch" actually has a meaning? And that that meaning doesn't include burning down neighborhoods?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:26 pm UTC

Also, several of the recent "crimes" for which black people have been killed have included "jaywalking", "Holding a pellet gun in front of the rack that sells pellet guns in an open carry state", and "cosplaying".

Like, aside from the fact that you don't seem to understand what lynching is, you're really showing your ass here by making this about "disproportionate harshness" toward "petty criminals". Those people? Not any kind of criminals.

Furthermore? Extrajudicial execution on-site by a cop is not actually a punishment for any crime. So the victims' status as any kind of criminal is, in addition to anything else, massively irrelevant. Murdering a criminal is still murder, not "excessive sentencing".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:33 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:And false accusations CAN be damaging. People have had careers ended by them.

If true accusations of racism had ended Wilson's career back when they were first given, Brown would be alive right now.

So, just, y'know, don't.

Just fucking don't.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:04 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Did you know that "lynch" actually has a meaning? And that that meaning doesn't include burning down neighborhoods?


I used that example because it was probably the worst case of mass murder we ever had. It was a pogrom. Sure, it wasn't a mob chasing down one person, giving a fake trial and then killing that person while everyone partied, it was a massive act of terrorism in which many black people were killed, for the crime of not "knowing their place". That's effectively what lynching is, is it not?

Yesterday the mobs murdered black kids for becoming too successful.
Today the police murder black kids for the slightest screwup.

Sometimes the police screw up even more massively like the case of John Crawford. But that was a police screw up in which a man was effectively murdered. But how does that send a message similar to the lynchings of yesterday?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:11 am UTC

Belial wrote:I suggest you all google that shit up before you suggest for even a second that it's the cops who are being lynched.


Since CorruptUser apparently can't manage that himself, here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:18 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:And false accusations CAN be damaging. People have had careers ended by them.

If true accusations of racism had ended Wilson's career back when they were first given, Brown would be alive right now.

So, just, y'know, don't.

Just fucking don't.

Evidence? Or are we just calling every cop who's ever used lethal force either intentionally or inadvertently a racist against whatever race was involved?

Cause when I see people rioting calling for action against a person who has been found innocent by due process of law, I do tend to think lynch mob. Now, due process of law can be a crock of shit but I'd tend to want to see some evidence. And if due process of law is a crock of shit, that's a hell of a bigger deal than an individual I'm sorry to say.

I don't read the law to be that a white cop can kill a black person whenever they want. That's not the law even if it was once before. I don't think a grand Jury is supposed to believe everything a police officer says with no other evidence or let a white guy off the hook cause he's white. I like our current laws on the matter and haven't heard anybody actually criticizing the LAW on here. So if the law is just and the court is just and you don't agree with the ruling... hmm. Maybe you haven't actually weighed the evidence very well? I tend to agree with our legal system the vast majority of the time. It gets things wrong sometimes but these two cases we're talking about... there is a plethora of evidence and testimony. Those are not the type of situations where the outcome is generally wrong.

So I guess I see racist cops and I see profiling and I hate racist people of all professions and I hate profiling but I also love the legal system. I also have a healthy skepticism. I'm not buying wrongful deaths in these cases. There are plenty other cases of wrongful deaths but they seem to be the ones that are actually prosecuted so not worth protesting over? Just the ones where the cop "gets away with it"? Sad.

...

People don't like random chance, especially in matters of life and death. When somebody dies, particularly if they're young or perceived to have great potential (famous), their deaths are hard for people to deal with. Our natural coping mechanism is to add cause of death until it reaches such a weight as to balance the effect of the death. Conspiracy of outside parties where there was none, intent of malice when random chance contributed significantly, extenuating circumstances being changed, ignored, or added in order to add more nuance. Deaths at the hands of police will never be easy to deal with and the current relations between blacks, specifically young male blacks, and police is fuel for the fire.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:18 am UTC

When did I ever say the cops were being lynched?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:42 am UTC

mosc wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:And false accusations CAN be damaging. People have had careers ended by them.

If true accusations of racism had ended Wilson's career back when they were first given, Brown would be alive right now.

So, just, y'know, don't.

Just fucking don't.

Evidence? Or are we just calling every cop who's ever used lethal force either intentionally or inadvertently a racist against whatever race was involved?

No, I'm calling him a racist because his previous police force was dissolved for race-based corruption.

Like, he, and his fellow cops, were ''already'' called on their racism, and it sure as shit didn't end his career.

Jesus, this is a well-known fact of the case. Have you kept up with those at all?

Cause when I see people rioting calling for action against a person who has been found innocent by due process of law, I do tend to think lynch mob. Now, due process of law can be a crock of shit but I'd tend to want to see some evidence. And if due process of law is a crock of shit, that's a hell of a bigger deal than an individual I'm sorry to say.

Maybe you should be looking into all the evidence that experts, not just internet peons like us but the ABA, FBI, etc. have been bringing up.

I like our current laws on the matter and haven't heard anybody actually criticizing the LAW on here.

Then you haven't been listening.

We've criticized that the governer has no legal obligation to appoint special, independent prosecutors (resulting in the blatant farce we saw at the grand jury). We've criticized stuff like "Stand your ground". We've criticized the laws that make it acceptable for cops to be armed with military surplus like they're about to topple a third-world nation. We've criticized the laws that allow the audits and internal affairs to be handled so close to in house that it is essentially nothing more than a pinkie swear that we'll totes behave, promise!

There are plenty other cases of wrongful deaths but they seem to be the ones that are actually prosecuted so not worth protesting over? Just the ones where the cop "gets away with it"?


People protest over those, too, to ensure that justice is met. The media just doesn't report on it so much. Plus, there's the fact that when the system does work, what really is the point of protesting the system? Like, what the hell are you criticizing here? That people don't bitch when society manages to be just?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:When did I ever say the cops were being lynched?
You didn't, but I figured you would be capable of reading the first half of that sentence even if the second half didn't apply to you.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:08 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:No, I'm calling him a racist because his previous police force was dissolved for race-based corruption.

Like, he, and his fellow cops, were ''already'' called on their racism, and it sure as shit didn't end his career.
I don't suppose you can demonstrate that Wilson himself was a racist? This Washington Post article seems fairly straightforward and it never makes that claim. In point of fact it describes Wilson as being free from any kind of trouble before the point where he shot Brown. It doesn't seem to support the narrative you want to espouse.

edited link

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:08 am UTC

Profiling based on groups is only bad if it gives the outcome you don't like seems to be a consistent viewpoint

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:23 pm UTC

Do you have any idea how interesting, goofy and joyful the Mechanisms of Justice can be?
When Justice is Not required to be Sudden and Sure; Many hands make Light Work.

Many hands make Light Work.

Justice is a Goddess.
When people work for Justice, those people would be Arrogant to think They Alone act as her Servants.

Many hands make Light Work.

edit: Damn it!
My Point is Not that Many Hands make Light Work.
My Point is Many Eyes make Clear Vision.

We need more people to see with their very own eyes.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:No, I'm calling him a racist because his previous police force was dissolved for race-based corruption.

Like, he, and his fellow cops, were ''already'' called on their racism, and it sure as shit didn't end his career.
I don't suppose you can demonstrate that Wilson himself was a racist? This Washington Post article seems fairly straightforward and it never makes that claim. In point of fact it describes Wilson as being free from any kind of trouble before the point where he shot Brown. It doesn't seem to support the narrative you want to espouse.

edited link

The "narrative that I want to espouse" is that accusations of racism don't "taint someone's career" in the way that was claimed.

Yes or no, did coming from a police department that was dissolved for being too racist for Missouri prevent him from finding a new job in the exact same field? Did he and his fellow cops at least have to move across the country or change their identities to escape their allegedly tainted legacy?

No?

Then why are we claiming that accusing the policing system of racism, with evidence, is such an abhorrent thing to do that we should not call it out as a problem if we see it?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:44 pm UTC

So out of curiousity how many cops in a force of 45 needs to do something materially and recordably racist to get it disbanded and for its members to be so dangerous to be prejudged? One assumes it needs to be above 30% to avoid accusations of hypocrasy

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:49 pm UTC

leady wrote:So out of curiousity how many cops in a force of 45 needs to do something materially and recordably racist to get it disbanded and for its members to be so dangerous to be prejudged? One assumes it needs to be above 30% to avoid accusations of hypocrasy

The real question is how much of a screwup is a police department that has to be seized by the feds? They either can't or won't fire the racists.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

leady wrote:So out of curiousity how many cops in a force of 45 needs to do something materially and recordably racist to get it disbanded and for its members to be so dangerous to be prejudged? One assumes it needs to be above 30% to avoid accusations of hypocrasy

I'm not arguing that it should follow him his entire life. I'm a big believer in forgiving people once they make amends for what they've done.

However, the claim is "if you accuse them of being racist, it will taint their career forever!"

Not only does that not happen in the real world, even if it did, it would have saved someone's life. So let's just not flog that misbegotten chud of a claim, okay?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:53 pm UTC

Hmm you sure his old department was closed due to race based corruption and not just regular corruption? The only article I found regarding corruption inquiries in Jennings was:

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Corrupti ... 82614.html

And that seems to talk about getting paid for overtime they didn't do.

The only evidence we have of Wilson's racism is that he's as much a racist as practically anyone in america is. That is to say, he lives in a society that has pervasive, systemic racism present in it. That systemic racism may have made him more afraid for his life when he shot brown and it may even have contributed to him stopping Brown and in how he chose to speak/deal with him. I haven't seen any other articles talking about how he particularly targetted blacks or even any other problems he has been involved in. I'm pretty sure its the distinction between this "directed racism" and "systemic racism" (for lack of better terms) that people are talking around each other about. Saying he is a racist because he is part of a society where racism is prevalent is accurate, but hardly useful. Calling someone a racist because their history of actions/behavior show him racially discriminating would be more useful, should there be evidence to support it. That doesn't appear to be the case here.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:08 pm UTC

http://m.theatlantic.com/national/archi ... on/383681/
Have we brought up that police are trained to fear everything and to shoot first?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:http://m.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/
Have we brought up that police are trained to fear everything and to shoot first?


I recently heard a term from it from a business owning chap I follow...elite panic. He suggested that one of the greatest dangers in times of emergency or unrest is not actually your fellow random dude. Yeah, that happens, but the biggest danger is from those in charge getting overly fearful, and responding overly harshly. This seems relevant to this scenario...

Shooting first isn't invariably a problem. If a threat is real, well, yeah, you wanna shoot before they do. But fearing everything IS a problem. Police really don't die all that frequently. And when they do, it's mostly traffic accidents. So...from a rational perspective, training them to use seatbelts and what not is going to be more pragmatic. I do not think that police need any particular deference with regards to self defense shootings. In other words, they should only shoot for the same level of credible danger that would be acceptable for anyone else.

KrytenKoro wrote:
leady wrote:So out of curiousity how many cops in a force of 45 needs to do something materially and recordably racist to get it disbanded and for its members to be so dangerous to be prejudged? One assumes it needs to be above 30% to avoid accusations of hypocrasy

I'm not arguing that it should follow him his entire life. I'm a big believer in forgiving people once they make amends for what they've done.

However, the claim is "if you accuse them of being racist, it will taint their career forever!"

Not only does that not happen in the real world, even if it did, it would have saved someone's life. So let's just not flog that misbegotten chud of a claim, okay?


The claim was really more that unwarranted claims were damaging. The idea that if only we'd have painted all folks from a group with the same broad brush, we'd be better off is...both mostly unrelated and very dangerous.

First off, you can't really use a single anecdote to disprove something. Unwarranted claims can still be damaging overall even if in a particular case they are not.

Secondly, encouraging people to be sloppier with evidence and quicker to jump to conclusions is highly likely to have undesirable effects. There is a wealth of history that bears this out.

Thirdly, judging individuals by the groups they happen to be a part of, without any additional evidence applying to that individual, is a HUGE problem, and not one that should be encouraged, regardless of if that group is race based or say, police. Just because a group has a statistically provable problem overall does not mean every member of that population has that problem.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Trebla » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The only evidence we have of Wilson's racism is that he's as much a racist as practically anyone in america is. That is to say, he lives in a society that has pervasive, systemic racism present in it. That systemic racism may have made him more afraid for his life when he shot brown and it may even have contributed to him stopping Brown and in how he chose to speak/deal with him. I haven't seen any other articles talking about how he particularly targetted blacks or even any other problems he has been involved in.


This is very well put and perfectly describes my view of the situation though I wasn't able to articulate it so well.

It may very well be statistically accurate to say that white Americans are systemically racist and more afraid of blacks than whites... but to immediately say "that must be why Wilson shot Brown" is ridiculous. Systemic racism is a problem. The incident in question is a travesty with an unfortunate outcome. Maybe the two are related.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Belial » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:27 pm UTC

I mean, if we super want evidence of Wilson being a racist, let's go with the fact that, during his testimony, he described someone the same size as him as "A demon" while calling him "It".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:36 pm UTC

Wilson's career is over. It would be dangerous for him to continue in law enforcement in the US. It may be that this is as good as it gets.
Tyndmyr wrote:Shooting first isn't invariably a problem. If a threat is real, well, yeah, you wanna shoot before they do. But fearing everything IS a problem. Police really don't die all that frequently. And when they do, it's mostly traffic accidents. So...from a rational perspective, training them to use seatbelts and what not is going to be more pragmatic. I do not think that police need any particular deference with regards to self defense shootings. In other words, they should only shoot for the same level of credible danger that would be acceptable for anyone else.
One of the problems here is that guns present a balance of force issue. If you carry one and get involved in an altercation, the risk always exists that someone will take it away from you and shoot you with it. Police get paid to place themselves in those type of situations. If you carry and I assume that you do, you should be aware of that. Your gun protects you if you keep enough distance to shoot and stop someone. If they get close, gun becomes the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks, the property of whoever ends up with it. If anything police having guns makes the overall situation much more dangerous. And given that there are more guns in this country than people, I am not prepared to disarm them. And police may well not die anymore frequently than they do because they do shoot first.
Belial wrote:I mean, if we super want evidence of Wilson being a racist, let's go with the fact that, during his testimony, he described someone the same size as him as "A demon" while calling him "It".
Take it to federal court and try selling it. If Justice thinks they can, then they will charge him with a hate crime. However it would have been interesting if in the Grand Jury room he had described Brown as a choirboy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Nordic Einar » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:44 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Cause when I see people rioting calling for action against a person who has been found innocent by due process of law, I do tend to think lynch mob. Now, due process of law can be a crock of shit but I'd tend to want to see some evidence. And if due process of law is a crock of shit, that's a hell of a bigger deal than an individual I'm sorry to say.


We live in the United States - our President has found legal justification for extra-judicial assassinations of american citizens using drones if they MAY be involved in terrorism. Due Process of Law in the US is a crock of shit here.

mosc wrote:I don't read the law to be that a white cop can kill a black person whenever they want. That's not the law even if it was once before. I don't think a grand Jury is supposed to believe everything a police officer says with no other evidence or let a white guy off the hook cause he's white. I like our current laws on the matter and haven't heard anybody actually criticizing the LAW on here. So if the law is just and the court is just and you don't agree with the ruling... hmm.


See, I think I found the problem. You are under the impression that the court & our legal system are Just. Many of us in this thread have a fundamentally different belief on the nature of our courts.

morriswalters wrote:Wilson's career is over. It would be dangerous for him to continue in law enforcement in the US. It may be that this is as good as it gets.


And he made $500,000 from a single interview alone. You'll forgive me if this doesn't feel like much of a silver lining.

morriswalters wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, if we super want evidence of Wilson being a racist, let's go with the fact that, during his testimony, he described someone the same size as him as "A demon" while calling him "It".
Take it to federal court and try selling it. If Justice thinks they can, then they will charge him with a hate crime. However it would have been interesting if in the Grand Jury room he had described Brown as a choirboy.


This is a thing that those of you who are defending Wilson as Not Racist keep doing in this thread: equating the identification of race as a STRONG influence in these proceedings as a call for prosecution under a hate crime. This is a red herring. Stop doing that. Seriously, stop.

edit to avoid double posting and also holy shit my tags got fucked up in there.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:56 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The claim was really more that unwarranted claims were damaging. The idea that if only we'd have painted all folks from a group with the same broad brush, we'd be better off is...both mostly unrelated and very dangerous.

Which is why I'm not having that idea.

Unless I'm very much lost here:

1) someone claimed that people criticizing the police and justice system in Ferguson, MO, and related was akin to a lynching.
2) someone (I think the same someone, but not sure) claimed that the accusations of racism would permanently taint these peoples careers, so we can't just be "bandying those about" (as if the people alleging racism have no evidence and are being hypochondriacs)
3) I'm saying -- if (2) wasn't a blatantly false, moronic thing to worry about -- a beautiful derailment of any type of rational, cogent thought -- then it would have meant that a person would still be alive. Even in the world where that's a real thing to worry about (that it will taint a career irrepairably, not just that it would be potentially false), having done so to the people that posters are claiming are being lynched would have saved at least one life.

So.

Let's.

Just.

Not.

(And let me just be clear -- if Wilson can't get a job in law enforcement again, it's not because he was accused of being a racist. It's because he killed an unarmed man.)

First off, you can't really use a single anecdote to disprove something. Unwarranted claims can still be damaging overall even if in a particular case they are not.

See next to last paragraph above for why "it's just anecdotal!" makes no sense in this thread of thought.

Secondly, encouraging people to be sloppier with evidence and quicker to jump to conclusions is highly likely to have undesirable effects. There is a wealth of history that bears this out.

I'm not encouraging them to, I'm not even encouraging that people should be barred from jobs for being racist. I'm pointing out that the "OBJECTION!" is so far beyond rational as to be obscene.

Thirdly, judging individuals by the groups they happen to be a part of, without any additional evidence applying to that individual, is a HUGE problem, and not one that should be encouraged, regardless of if that group is race based or say, police. Just because a group has a statistically provable problem overall does not mean every member of that population has that problem.

Again, I'm not the one who brought up the idea of people being tarred and feathered as a group. I'm saying it abso-fucking-lutely doesn't happen, and isn't a relevant worry to the person we were talking about.

Police get paid to place themselves in those type of situations.

I hate this idea, because it is so persuasively false.

They don't get paid for that. They get paid to place themselves in those type of situations and resolve them toward the greater peace of society, in accordance with the law. Otherwise they'd just be a company of David Blaines and Chris Angels, getting money for putting themselves in stupidly dangerous situations.

If you forget the last part, then you're basically saying that it would be equally acceptable for them to accomplish their "goal" by simply shelling the area the perp is in, justice be damned (to be fair, that has happened before, though I forget which city -- gmalivuk and sardia could probably name it off the top of their heads. Detroit, maybe?).
Last edited by KrytenKoro on Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:04 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:00 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I mean, if we super want evidence of Wilson being a racist, let's go with the fact that, during his testimony, he described someone the same size as him as "A demon" while calling him "It".


"He looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked."

He used the word "it" when describing the scene when he used a simile.

It's a pain to get any kind of unedited transcripts.

Nobody wants to include more than a sentence or two because it makes a narrative harder to carry and both sides are pissing in the fountain of truth by quote-sniping fragments of sentences.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:08 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I mean, if we super want evidence of Wilson being a racist, let's go with the fact that, during his testimony, he described someone the same size as him as "A demon" while calling him "It".


If you're on trial for killing someone and alleging self-defense, demonizing them (usually figuratively, literally as well in this case) is probably going to be pretty common.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:15 pm UTC

Chen wrote:If you're on trial for killing someone and alleging self-defense, demonizing them (usually figuratively, literally as well in this case) is probably going to be pretty common.


Yep, with the other side doing the opposite using words like "boy", "kid" etc to try to paint a mental picture or them as a doe eyed child.
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