Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:55 am UTC

What can we Do about it?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:04 am UTC

I haven't noticed; I stopped watching tv so I no longer know what the press says; BBC is my main source of American news because I don't get the impression they back any American side.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:01 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:The press has amplified this by earnestly reporting the position of Wilson's supporters and, on the other side, by earnestly reporting the position of Wilson's supporters.

These are not symmetric, and pretending otherwise helps nothing.
Thus it ever was. Why would you expect symmetry? The country is predominately white.
addams wrote:What can we Do about it?
Keep talking, and take baby steps.
CorruptUser wrote:I haven't noticed; I stopped watching tv so I no longer know what the press says; BBC is my main source of American news because I don't get the impression they back any American side.
I watch British crime shows. The cops don't carry guns.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:47 pm UTC

Article about implicit racial bias

The shoot/don't shoot study was already mentioned. Denver cops did better at correctly identifying guns than the general population, but were still significantly more likely and faster to "shoot" at pictures of black people than white people, with or without guns.

As I and others have said multiple times, we're not saying Wilson was a Klansman out to murder him some black folks (though Anonymous has claimed to have evidence linking Wilson to the KKK that they won't release at this point in order to protect their source). We're just saying that he's probably a bit racist, just like everyone else, and thus a bit faster and more likely to see black people as a threat.

The bigger problem is everything that happened after he whot Mike Brown. No medical attention, no covering or removing the body for 4.5 hours, bad evidence handling, worse "prosecutor" conduct in the Grand Jury, no indictment, media demonization of Brown from day one, trying desperately to make him responsible for his own death.

(The media demonization is more overt in Tamir Rice's case, where the local paper immediately found dirt on the murdered child's father and somehow felt that was relevant to print, rather than anything actually pertinent to the case. But the overall racist pattern is the same every time.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:06 pm UTC

I was under the impression that the worst part was during the protests after the death, where the police teargassed peaceful protesters and reporters, and then one cop aimed his rifle at the protesters and started threatening to kill them. "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" cuts both ways; if you aren't doing anything wrong you shouldn't be afraid of free speech.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:As I and others have said multiple times, we're not saying Wilson was a Klansman out to murder him some black folks (though Anonymous has claimed to have evidence linking Wilson to the KKK that they won't release at this point in order to protect their source). We're just saying that he's probably a bit racist, just like everyone else, and thus a bit faster and more likely to see black people as a threat.
You do this quite a bit. If Anonymous has something then they should put it out there in public view. Otherwise why mention it at all? We agree on the rest for what that might be worth to you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:24 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:As I and others have said multiple times, we're not saying Wilson was a Klansman out to murder him some black folks (though Anonymous has claimed to have evidence linking Wilson to the KKK that they won't release at this point in order to protect their source). We're just saying that he's probably a bit racist, just like everyone else, and thus a bit faster and more likely to see black people as a threat.
You do this quite a bit. If Anonymous has something then they should put it out there in public view. Otherwise why mention it at all? We agree on the rest for what that might be worth to you.
I do what quite a bit?

The connection doesn't need to exist for my point to stand, because my point was never that he's literally a murderous racist who goes around looking for black people to kill. But at the same time, since it's relevant to the discussion, I'm also not going to fail to mention that such allegations exist.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

Of course your points stand. Your position is cogent and well reasoned for the most part. But the addition of what Anonymous might have to say is meaningless, if the point is reasoned argument, what Anonymous might have to say, is unassailable, since they haven't said anything to date of any substance, unless you can point to it. My opinion is that you wish to say that you believe is true without giving anyone a handle to challenge it. If I challenge it, you say that you didn't say it explicitly, if I don't then you make the point without having to support it. I'm not even certain that you do it consciously.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:17 am UTC

It's worth mentioning because you people keep acting like there's this huge insurmountable burden of proof needed to claim Wilson was racist.

My response to that is twofold:
1) "Racist" is not the same as "KKK member", and given that most people have some racial bias that leads to making biased threat assessments and that those assessments in turn lead to disproportionately killing black people, the burden of proof for "Darren Wilson is racist" is actually less than the evidence needed for the "nuh-uh" response.
2) In addition, "KKK member" isn't such an impossibly huge leap to make, either. I remain agnostic as to whether there is in fact a connection between them and Wilson, but even without the Anonymous claim it isn't as inconceivable as some people are making it out to be. A number of people at all levels of government, from cops to (possibly) presidents, have in the past turned out to be Klansmen. The KKK has supported Darren Wilson throughout this ordeal, and he has done nothing to distance himself from that support.

Are expressing no remorse for killing an unarmed black teenager and expressing no objection to vocal support from KKK members the kinds of things we should expect from a totally not even a little bit racist person?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:02 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:In addition, "KKK member" isn't such an impossibly huge leap to make, either. I remain agnostic as to whether there is in fact a connection between them and Wilson, but even without the Anonymous claim it isn't as inconceivable as some people are making it out to be. A number of people at all levels of government, from cops to (possibly) presidents, have in the past turned out to be Klansmen. The KKK has supported Darren Wilson throughout this ordeal, and he has done nothing to distance himself from that support.
Do you not see that this is exactly the type of thing that is done to Blacks all the time. Brown was a thug, Brown was a demon. And people buy into it. It isn't that it is inconceivable, but nothing suggests that either is true. And no evidence exists to this point to say that Wilson was a racist or a member of the KKK. When there is evidence then it will be worth talking about, until then it is gossip. It's probably better that I get out of this conversation, it isn't going anywhere positive, and I am sure that other people have other things to say.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:10 am UTC

I see it as less "racism" and more "prejudice". The distinction is very subtle and the results are almost indistinguishable, but the root cause is not.

Racism is where you believe that people of different races naturally have different abilities/worth/etc. Prejudice is where you, consciously or unconsciously, believe that a person is going to behave in a certain way based on various characteristics, and yes there is a huge overlap. The human mind likes organizing everything into categories, as this lets us get through this world without wasting processing power. Quickly you scan someone; fat neckbeard and fedora, you assume that person is also an MRA atheist that lives in a basement, you have prejudice about that person. You may be wrong; it could just be a guy with bad fashion, but in your experience every fat neckbeard with a fedora also is an MRA atheist that lives in a basement. But the human brain likes to be quick, and hates to be wrong.

Everyone has prejudices. Think you don't? See an elderly haggard guy in cheap and worn clothing? Your prejudice assumes he is also homeless and is going to beg for money, so you take actions to avoid him. Ladies, every time you walk alone down the street and notice a guy come up to you, do you take any 'evasive maneuvers' to avoid him? You assume he's trying to hit on you; maybe he's just trying to ask for directions? You don't know, but you have (justified) prejudices against guys that approach you in the street.

And yes, unfortunately the person's race will get mixed in with those prejudices.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:34 am UTC

The fine points of our Natural Ordering of The World based on Experience is an important conversation.
This Thread is about the Misbehavior of, primarily, US Police.

There is No Doubt, the US Police have in the past and continue to Misbehave.
Why they Misbehave is an important question for Criminal Justice Majors and Psychological Warfare Majors.

I think our primary concern should be in putting a Stop to this particular kind of Crime.
It is a crime to Kill people. Unless the Killer is under direct orders. Then the guilt moves Up.

How to Stop the Crime of Police Abuse?
If you had a group of people that were Killing and Abusing people while in Uniform in a Word Problem at University;....
What tools were you given to Solve that problem with? What tool were you taught to use? In Word Problems?

In all my hours of sitting in Lectures, I do not remember being given an equation ....

Sane people don't do those things.
....War makes people Nuts.

When a people has Criminals in Uniform, like the US does, that people needs OutSide Help.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby wumpus » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:45 am UTC

The County Executive of a Maryland county recently discussed his encounters with the police:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md- ... story.html

One thing that got me about this incident was that I have been assuming that Montgomery County cops are the least likely of any local cops in Maryland to pull this type of thing (and some of the least likely local cops in the US). Go pretty much anywhere else (maybe not neighboring Howard County) and everything will get much, much, worse*.

* This includes Prince Georges County (due East of Montgomery. The University of Maryland is there, and I lived there when I attended). The odd thing here is that PG County has been "wealthy/middle class black" for at least 30 years. Pretty much any cop who started when this wasn't true has already retired. Yet the cops there are notoriously trigger-happy. When I understand the racial and political dynamic that causes this I will be enlightened about race and politics in the US.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mousewiz » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:12 am UTC

wumpus wrote:The County Executive of a Maryland county recently discussed his encounters with the police:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md- ... story.html

One thing that got me about this incident was that I have been assuming that Montgomery County cops are the least likely of any local cops in Maryland to pull this type of thing (and some of the least likely local cops in the US). Go pretty much anywhere else (maybe not neighboring Howard County) and everything will get much, much, worse*.

* This includes Prince Georges County (due East of Montgomery. The University of Maryland is there, and I lived there when I attended). The odd thing here is that PG County has been "wealthy/middle class black" for at least 30 years. Pretty much any cop who started when this wasn't true has already retired. Yet the cops there are notoriously trigger-happy. When I understand the racial and political dynamic that causes this I will be enlightened about race and politics in the US.


I have trouble believing that the two incidents had anything to do with racial profiling. I base my lack of belief on the fact that since the mid 90s, as a white dude, I've also had two similar encounters with the police. Don't get me wrong, it's quite unpleasant and they shouldn't be acting like that because, as mentioned in the article, sometimes people don't have level headed reactions to aggressive tones, but it seems like a stretch to say he was profiled due to race.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:35 pm UTC

Wait, I thought that this whole discussion has been about the cop being likely to be so overtly racist that its a viable motive for cold blooded murder - but now we are tying the decision to a tiny prediliction under lab conditions with all other factors removed, that people are slightly racist in millisecond instictive responses?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:52 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:And no evidence exists to this point to say that Wilson was a racist

On the contrary, I think his lack of remorse and lack of interest in distancing himself from explicit KKK support both count as evidence of racism (above and beyond the fact that he is a white person living in a racist society, of course).

CorruptUser wrote:I see it as less "racism" and more "prejudice". The distinction is very subtle and the results are almost indistinguishable, but the root cause is not.

Racism is where you believe that people of different races naturally have different abilities/worth/etc. Prejudice is where you, consciously or unconsciously, believe that a person is going to behave in a certain way based on various characteristics, and yes there is a huge overlap.
...
Everyone has prejudices. Think you don't?
...
And yes, unfortunately the person's race will get mixed in with those prejudices.

Are you really so dedicated to your claim that Wilson isn't racist that you'll try to define your way out of it by making this sort of "distinction"?

If the prejudice is based in whole or in part on race, then it is a racist prejudice and I'm going to keep calling that racism, especially when it so regularly gets black people killed with impunity.

And if my reminders that everyone's a little bit racist bother you so much, why should your "everyone's a little bit prejudiced" line be any different?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby rat4000 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And if my reminders that everyone's a little bit racist bother you so much, why should your "everyone's a little bit prejudiced" line be any different?
There is a real difference between explicit and implicit attitudes, so it seems reasonable to have a terminological difference also.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:54 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And if my reminders that everyone's a little bit racist bother you so much, why should your "everyone's a little bit prejudiced" line be any different?


Because it's overly simplistic for a very complex issue. We're all academics here, are we not?

As for me "defending" Wilson from accusations of racism, I never once claimed he wasn't a racist. I have been very adamant not that Wilson is unbiased, but that YOU have no evidence of racism that is not circumstantial.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

there isn't any circumstancial evidence either, just supposition

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:04 pm UTC

That he was previously in a police force that was disbanded for being too racist for Missouri IS circumstantial evidence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:04 pm UTC

I honestly cannot even remember what the underlying debate of this argument is. gmal and CU, what are both of you trying to dispute, again?
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That he was previously in a police force that was disbanded for being too racist for Missouri IS circumstantial evidence.


Its not because the causal chain requires massive leaps of logic that just can't be inferred without additional information or assumptions.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:37 pm UTC

Whether or not racism played a role in Brown's death.

Gmal- YES
Me- Insufficient evidence

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:50 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That he was previously in a police force that was disbanded for being too racist for Missouri IS circumstantial evidence.


I posted earlier about this and the only corruption I found reference to about that previous police force was extra overtime that was being paid out without overtime actually being done.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Whether or not racism played a role in Brown's death.

Gmal- YES
Me- Insufficient evidence

Well then, as far as going forward, can we not just say that racism clearly played a part in the general police force's response to the protests, and that the police department as a whole requires racial sensitivity training? It's not like either side is debating whether Wilson in particular should be charged with a hate crime, so it seems pointless to focus on the individual suspect.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:22 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:It's not like either side is debating whether Wilson in particular should be charged with a hate crime, so it seems pointless to focus on the individual suspect.

Yeah, maybe CorruptUser forgot about that time I pointed this out, 14 pages ago?
gmalivuk wrote:"racism played a part" ≠ "racism killed the kid"

"Darren Wilson is somewhat racist" ≠ "Cop should be punished for hate crime!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:48 pm UTC

Yet you've been arguing that Wilson is racist. If it wasn't a cause of Brown's death, what does it matter? More importantly, why do you care?

I mean, if you are going to claim that Wilson's 'racism' had no effect on the outcome, then it's not really an issue is it?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:35 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Yet you've been arguing that Wilson is racist. If it wasn't a cause of Brown's death, what does it matter? More importantly, why do you care?

I mean, if you are going to claim that Wilson's 'racism' had no effect on the outcome, then it's not really an issue is it?
I am not going to claim nor have I ever claimed in the past that his racism had no effect on the outcome. I still stand by what I wrote 14 pages ago: Darren WIlson is at least somewhat racist and racism played a part in the homicide of Michael Brown.

I continue to discuss it only because you people are so unwilling to accept that very weak claim on anything less than the strength of evidence it would take to convict Wilson of a race-based hate crime in a criminal trial.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:06 am UTC

What do you mean "you people"?

(you kinda set yourself up for that one)

My threshhold of evidence for accusing someone is Clear and Convincing Evidence (most likely), not Beyond all Reasonable Doubt (almost certainly). You have yet to provide that. You haven't even provided a Preponderance of the Evidence (more likely than not). At best you have Reasonable Suspicion (possibly).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:37 am UTC

We have Clear and Convincing Evidence that the US Police are Violent, Ruthless, Well Armed Murders on special days when they are being filmed.
On all the other days they will Hunt Down and Kill their Own. I don't care what color you are. That bunch is Dangerous!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:07 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I am not going to claim nor have I ever claimed in the past that his racism had no effect on the outcome. I still stand by what I wrote 14 pages ago: Darren WIlson is at least somewhat racist and racism played a part in the homicide of Michael Brown.

I continue to discuss it only because you people are so unwilling to accept that very weak claim on anything less than the strength of evidence it would take to convict Wilson of a race-based hate crime in a criminal trial.


Please at least be consistent - multiple times you have suggested a narrative of events that absolutely infers that Wilson was a racist murderer with racism being the prime motive. You have never suggested once that the only racism is in the final twitch reaction time of Wilson in gunning down a charging Brown

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:20 am UTC

This guy says what some of us think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO-UW_-DxmA

Not me.
I think he is too fucking calm about the whole thing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:31 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What do you mean "you people"?

(you kinda set yourself up for that one)

My threshhold of evidence for accusing someone is Clear and Convincing Evidence (most likely), not Beyond all Reasonable Doubt (almost certainly). You have yet to provide that. You haven't even provided a Preponderance of the Evidence (more likely than not). At best you have Reasonable Suspicion (possibly).
My point is that "not racist" is the wrong prior to start with.

The burden of proof is on people claiming Wilson differs significantly from the norm for white men and for cops.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

So what exactly is the white on black murder rate ?

193 / 300000000 = 0.0001 %

so apparently you need to reverse the burden of proof because those irredeemably racist white men murder black men in the US at a rate of 1 in 1 million

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

The burden of proof is reversed because white men are on average racist against black people and because police choose to "shoot" black people more quickly and more often than white people, whether or not they actually see a gun.

So to argue that Wilson is not racist, you have to demonstrate that he differs from the norm. And the claim that something is abnormal is always the one with a heavier burden of proof.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:55 pm UTC

So which is it Gmal? Are you claiming that racism was responsible for Brown's death or not?


And ignoring the irony of the racism in your post decrying racism (I'm not a racist I'm a 'racial realist'!), what do you suggest as a solution? If it's 'screen out 80% of applicants', that's not an option in nearly every department and you know it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

I don't think his position is all that complicated... Certainly not worth all this hair-splitting.

Seems to me he's saying that there is undeniable systemic racism in play but that, in his opinion, there is additionally circumstantial evidence that Wilson may be racist above and beyond the norm.

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There seems to be a certain irony in play that Gm is getting a far more forensic cross-examination than Wilson had to endure!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:09 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So which is it Gmal? Are you claiming that racism was responsible for Brown's death or not?
Do I need to quote myself from 15 pages ago yet again? I'm claiming it played a part, as I've always claimed.

And ignoring the irony of the racism in your post decrying racism
Which racism in my post? The fact that white people are on average biased against black people is not a racist claim, it's a straight reporting of research data.

(I'm not a racist I'm a 'racial realist'!), what do you suggest as a solution? If it's 'screen out 80% of applicants', that's not an option in nearly every department and you know it.
Training to combat the biases you know are probably there in that 80%. Harsh penalties for racial profiling and other racially biased policing (or at the vary least stop having that kind of racist behavior be part of department policy). Accountability for cops who kill unarmed civilians of any race, rather than letting the ones who kill black people mostly get off without so much as a slap on the wrist.

Even if you could screen out racists at the beginning, that isn't going to solve anything if department policy is still to stop and frisk black and brown people, and if extrajudicial homicide of black people continues to go completely unpunished much of the time.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:21 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The burden of proof is reversed because white men are on average racist against black people and because police choose to "shoot" black people more quickly and more often than white people, whether or not they actually see a gun.

So to argue that Wilson is not racist, you have to demonstrate that he differs from the norm. And the claim that something is abnormal is always the one with a heavier burden of proof.


So just to be clear here - you think the burden of proof should be reversed because a lab test suggests that the human subconscious reacts marginally faster based on race? or to put it another way - because Wilson unloaded a whole 2 foot further away he needs to prove his innocence?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:40 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Training to combat the biases you know are probably there in that 80%. Harsh penalties for racial profiling and other racially biased policing (or at the vary least stop having that kind of racist behavior be part of department policy). Accountability for cops who kill unarmed civilians of any race, rather than letting the ones who kill black people mostly get off without so much as a slap on the wrist.

Even if you could screen out racists at the beginning, that isn't going to solve anything if department policy is still to stop and frisk black and brown people, and if extrajudicial homicide of black people continues to go completely unpunished much of the time.


I find nothing in this section that I disagree with.

elasto wrote:There seems to be a certain irony in play that Gm is getting a far more forensic cross-examination than Wilson had to endure!


Yeah, the courts really need to treat cops just like they treat the average joes.


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