Police misbehavior thread

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

morriswalters
Posts: 6898
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:33 pm UTC

leady wrote:So just to be clear here - you think the burden of proof should be reversed because a lab test suggests that the human subconscious reacts marginally faster based on race? or to put it another way - because Wilson unloaded a whole 2 foot further away he needs to prove his innocence?
You can't say something about one man, even if it is generally true about men in general. The irony is that given the levels of institutional racism that exist in America, it isn't surprising that what Wilson did gets a pass, it is perfectly legal. Therein lies the injustice. Wilson is a product of the system. And it is the system that is fucked up. It's easier to show that a Department is biased and too violent, you can treat it as one statistical entity and send it the the outhouse based on its statistical record. Which is why the Justice Department has taken a number of PD's to court. You can't however do that to an individual, no matter how much he might deserve it.

The argument as espoused here glosses over the fact that too often police are to aggressive with everyone. Minorities, women, the poor to name a few. And it is further complicated by the presence of enormous numbers of guns in all parts of American society.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:35 pm UTC

leady wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The burden of proof is reversed because white men are on average racist against black people and because police choose to "shoot" black people more quickly and more often than white people, whether or not they actually see a gun.

So to argue that Wilson is not racist, you have to demonstrate that he differs from the norm. And the claim that something is abnormal is always the one with a heavier burden of proof.


So just to be clear here - you think the burden of proof should be reversed because a lab test suggests that the human subconscious reacts marginally faster based on race? or to put it another way - because Wilson unloaded a whole 2 foot further away he needs to prove his innocence?

I know you're here primarily to be a troll, but in case anyone else is reading your posts:

My position is not that Darren Wilson should be charged with a hate crime, but that he is somewhat racist.

In disagreejng with me, therefore, you're not taking the position that Wilson isn't provably a violently racist murder, you're taking the position that Wilson isn't even a little bit racist.

So yes, your claim is the one with the heavier burden of proof.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The argument as espoused here glosses over the fact that too often police are to aggressive with everyone. Minorities, women, the poor to name a few.

And the underlying structural problem is that they are held less accountable (if at all) when they brutalize black people. I'm not "glossing over" other police brutality just because I'm pointing out that it's a serious problem to let them get away with murder when it's a black victim.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10130
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:26 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The burden of proof is reversed because white men are on average racist against black people and because police choose to "shoot" black people more quickly and more often than white people, whether or not they actually see a gun.

So to argue that Wilson is not racist, you have to demonstrate that he differs from the norm. And the claim that something is abnormal is always the one with a heavier burden of proof.


This is a wild misuse of "burden of proof", which often comes about with BS claims, because it's wildly popular to push that off unto the other party.

No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

Chen
Posts: 5266
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:33 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:And the underlying structural problem is that they are held less accountable (if at all) when they brutalize black people. I'm not "glossing over" other police brutality just because I'm pointing out that it's a serious problem to let them get away with murder when it's a black victim.


Do you have stats that show its worse in terms of punishing cops when the victim is black as opposed to white or any other race? The only article I found for NYC was

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc ... -1.2037357

Now the number of incidents where blacks are victims is high (61% here) but I'm not sure how disproportionate the punishments against the cops are. 3 indictments over 179 instances is practically 0 for all intents and purposes. Morris' point that they get away with their brutality/killing against EVERYONE seems correct.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:47 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9415
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:08 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?

If your Job is to serve and protect The People in all their varied colors and creeds,
Then; You must be able to but your personal opinions of those AssHoles in it's proper place.

If it were Easy and came Natural, we would not require up to 18 weeks training.
Would we? It's an Important Job.

We put the lives of our Best and Brightest into the hands of people with 18 weeks training.

What The Fuck Is Wrong with Us!
Spoiler:
Well...I, for one, am scared. You?


Hey! I spoke to two delightful young men two days ago.
They are on the ladder up in their profession.

They are American First Responders.
They take the best training available to them.

They Are Not EMT's!
How The Fuck Does That Happen??

They would Love to have that education.
That kind of Education teaches Men, The Truth.

The Truth sets Men Free.
I liked them.

Still...I see them as imprisoned by their Ignorance.
It's Not their Fault!!

One was very interested in becoming Qualified.
The other one was interested in FootBall.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
WibblyWobbly
Can't Get No
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby WibblyWobbly » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:52 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?

Curious. Would it be valid to assume all people are, on average, heterosexual?

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm UTC

If you pick a random name out of the phonebook, then the claim that that person is heterosexual should require weaker evidence to accept than the claim that they're bi or pan or gay.

The assumption of heterosexuality should be held with less conficence than the assumption of two-armed-ness, but that doesn't make it invalid.

And degree of racial bias is continuous and less easily divided up the way we do with labels for sexual orientation. It's more like height. If I pick a random name out of the phonebook and claim that person is less than seven feet tall, would you be as unwilling to accept that assumption as you are the statement that Darren Wilson is somewhat racist?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:04 pm UTC


User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:36 pm UTC

Yes that is in fact a thing I've been saying for some time now.

Also, Wilson isn't really the equivalent of a random guy from the phonebook who I'm claiming isn't gay. He's more like a random guy who had sex with a woman and said he thought it was the right thing to do and he would do it again, and who has not tried to distance himself from the vocal support of the Westboro Baptist Church.

And then Tyndmyr pops in and says I'm homophobic for concluding that that guy isn't gay.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:44 pm UTC

Going with the gay metaphor, you are claiming that not only is he probably straight but that his straightness was what caused him to have sex with the woman. And the question everyone has is whether she was hitting on him at his car, whether or not the woman was coming on to him or not, did she have a history of being promis- ok this metaphor is breaking down.

User avatar
PeteP
What the peck?
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Going with the gay metaphor, you are claiming that not only is he probably straight but that his straightness was what caused him to have sex with the woman. And the question everyone has is whether she was hitting on him at his car, whether or not the woman was coming on to him or not, did she have a history of being promis- ok this metaphor is breaking down.

If a man is straight I would think it's rather likely that their straightness played a rather major role in having sex with a woman.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Going with the gay metaphor, you are claiming that not only is he probably straight but that his straightness was what caused him to have sex with the woman.
No, I'm claiming that his straightness played a part in his decision to have sex with her.

So yes, thank you for strengthening my point for me.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9415
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:23 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Going with the gay metaphor, you are claiming that not only is he probably straight but that his straightness was what caused him to have sex with the woman.
No, I'm claiming that his straightness played a part in his decision to have sex with her.

So yes, thank you for strengthening my point for me.

Yep.
Those straight men.
They fall for those female wiles, over and over, again.

Now; Wait!
We do have Straight Male Police that are or were Sexual Predators.

Being Straight did not cause them to be Criminals.
Being Racist does not cause Police to be Criminals.

Being Straight sure does make fucking a woman easier.
Being Racist makes being Rough with a Black easier.

What about the Equal Opportunity Police.
They will be Rough with AnyOne!
It's a rough kind of Equality.

A Black Man is not a great deal more likely to die of homicide today than he was in 1940.
White People are gaining equality. The Police do not look like Knights in Shining Armor.

They are in Armor.
It's not Shiny Armor.

The Rigs are Shiny.
They have good machines.

I am a big ole' fan of the Unimog.
The Rigs the US Police have are impossible to not Envy.

They may be, Racist Gay Idiots.
I still want to look at their Trucks.

But; I don't get near their stuff.
What is Up with those guys?
Are they afraid we will take it away from them?

Maybe; Maybe the US Police are like boys fighting for their Toys.
Don't take Boys Toys. They don't like that.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:33 am UTC

Was Wilson being straight enough to be the difference between him having sex with the woman and not having sex with the woman?

User avatar
WibblyWobbly
Can't Get No
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:44 am UTC

Never go too far with a metaphor - it won't respect you in the morning.

User avatar
PeteP
What the peck?
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:54 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Was Wilson being straight enough to be the difference between him having sex with the woman and not having sex with the woman?

I'm pretty sure that not being sexually attracted to the woman would be enough to prevent sex from happening in most scenarios. I think you should drop the metaphor it doesn't work very well for your point.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:01 am UTC

Meh, I find that gay men have plenty of sex with women.

But anyway,

Was Wilson being racist enough to be the difference between him killing Brown and not killing Brown?

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:13 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:"racism played a part" ≠ "racism killed the kid"

"Darren Wilson is somewhat racist" ≠ "Cop should be punished for hate crime!"
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:36 am UTC

Then how is Wilson's alleged racism in any way relevant?

elasto
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:32 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Then how is Wilson's alleged racism in any way relevant?

Why can't there just be a large chance racism played a small part and a small chance racism played a large part?

Why does everything have to be so binary and absolute on the internet?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:48 am UTC

The best I can come up with for Gmal is that the inherent racism was like a -2 penalty to Brown's Save vs Cop. Brown failed his saving throw but we don't know what the numbers were; he could've missed it by 1, could've missed it by 10. But that we should work to remove that penalty because no one likes it when the DM is a dick and the real world isn't a board game.

All Gmal has to say is "Neither I nor you know for certain how the Ferguson case would've played out had things been different, but inherent racism does exist, it increases the chance of people having their lives undeservedly destroyed, and we should work to nullify it to reduce the chance of innocent people being killed by the police."

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9415
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:11 am UTC

elasto wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Then how is Wilson's alleged racism in any way relevant?

Why can't there just be a large chance racism played a small part and a small chance racism played a large part?

Why does everything have to be so binary and absolute on the internet?

I was going to answer in the absolute, "No. Everything does Not have to be so Binary on the Internet."
Then I realized, "That's Wrong."

If it were not so Binary, it would not be The Internet.

The conversation keeps going back to, "Convict the Man of Racism; First."
Then we can discuss his other crimes.

I don't give a flying fuck if he is a racist or not.
He killed. He killed a person he had sworn to protect.
If that is not Murder, What the fuck is?

Killing your wife? A person you have sworn to protect?
She can be So Snotty. She can be resistant.

Is killing her Murder?
When a man swears to protect and then kills those that put their lives in his hands.
That AssHole is a Murderer. And; He's Nuts.

Because he is Nuts, you must turn him over to protective custody.
Not in the Fucking Dark. Where he disappears like so many before him.

How many innocent people are in US Prisons?
How about in her facilities for the indigent mentally ill?

And; We waste our time and intellect attempting to conform to the demands that Darin Wilson's Racist Past
is the most important thing about Darin Wilson and the US Police and their Criminal Justice System.
It's Not.

The Man, Darin Wilson, is a fucking Nutter.
His kind of Nuts is Con-fucking-tagious!
It's a Epidemic of Violence!

World! World! Protect yourselves!
Stop The Violence before it gets to Your Home!

It can become a Pandemic!
You too can live your life in Ignorance and Fear.

Even in the years 2014-2015.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18638
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:13 pm UTC

... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:23 pm UTC

Maybe he was planning a really good DARE presentation?

DARE: Drugs Are Really Excellent

User avatar
Sizik
Posts: 1154
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:48 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sizik » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:24 pm UTC

Note that it's not just "Cop happens to own 5 lbs of weed", but "Cop steals 5 lbs of weed instead of filing it in the evidence locker".
gmalivuk wrote:
King Author wrote:If space (rather, distance) is an illusion, it'd be possible for one meta-me to experience both body's sensory inputs.
Yes. And if wishes were horses, wishing wells would fill up very quickly with drowned horses.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10130
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:38 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?


As someone who has done significant work with fingerprint recognition systems, god no. That's how you end up with systems that simply do not work for people that happen to fall outside your assumptions.

Yes, your assumption may be right frequently. But it's a certainy that such a practice will result in being wrong as well. Just because something happens to be true for a majority does not mean you should assume it of everyone.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:00 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?


As someone who has done significant work with fingerprint recognition systems, god no. That's how you end up with systems that simply do not work for people that happen to fall outside your assumptions.

Yes, your assumption may be right frequently. But it's a certainy that such a practice will result in being wrong as well. Just because something happens to be true for a majority does not mean you should assume it of everyone.

i don't think the statement is "majority of white people are to some degree racists, so all white people should be labeled racist regardless of contraindicating evidence", I think the statement is "given the statistical prevalence of some degree of racism, it's fairly safe to assume some degree of racism until viable evidence arises to suggest a change in your assessment of that degree. either positive or negative".

such that when a police officer, who is a participant in a system that has documented and studied racism built into said system on several fundamental levels, commits an action it is relatively safe to assume (without need for extraneous evidence) that some degree of racism is likely to play some part in the committing of that action.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

morriswalters
Posts: 6898
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

One has to wonder if the cops ship a lot of weed via UPS? I believe 5 lbs is possession with intent to distribute in my state. Idiot.

DSenette wrote:i don't think the statement is "majority of white people are to some degree racists, so all white people should be labeled racist regardless of contraindicating evidence", I think the statement is "given the statistical prevalence of some degree of racism, it's fairly safe to assume some degree of racism until viable evidence arises to suggest a change in your assessment of that degree. either positive or negative".

such that when a police officer, who is a participant in a system that has documented and studied racism built into said system on several fundamental levels, commits an action it is relatively safe to assume (without need for extraneous evidence) that some degree of racism is likely to play some part in the committing of that action.
What's the point? What can you do with that assumption as regards to Wilson?

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:36 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:One has to wonder if the cops ship a lot of weed via UPS? I believe 5 lbs is possession with intent to distribute in my state. Idiot.

DSenette wrote:i don't think the statement is "majority of white people are to some degree racists, so all white people should be labeled racist regardless of contraindicating evidence", I think the statement is "given the statistical prevalence of some degree of racism, it's fairly safe to assume some degree of racism until viable evidence arises to suggest a change in your assessment of that degree. either positive or negative".

such that when a police officer, who is a participant in a system that has documented and studied racism built into said system on several fundamental levels, commits an action it is relatively safe to assume (without need for extraneous evidence) that some degree of racism is likely to play some part in the committing of that action.
What's the point? What can you do with that assumption as regards to Wilson?

have a dialogue about how to reduce police violence in this country that includes the concept of reducing systemic racism in the police departments that serve the citizenry? which would require, in part, the acknowledgement that race, latent or blatant racism by the individual, and systemic racism that is inherent to the way that "we as a country" approach criminal justice is a thing...and that it's a thing that we should like...totally not be ok with.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

morriswalters
Posts: 6898
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:03 pm UTC

Ok, I can get on board, in fact I already am.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10130
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:08 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:No. It isn't normal to call every person out there racist. Even if the majority of people were racist, it would still not be valid to assume individuals are without further evidence. Coming from the assumption that white people are, by default, racist is itself quite racist indeed.

The degree is different, of course, but is it also not valid to assume an individual has two arms?


As someone who has done significant work with fingerprint recognition systems, god no. That's how you end up with systems that simply do not work for people that happen to fall outside your assumptions.

Yes, your assumption may be right frequently. But it's a certainy that such a practice will result in being wrong as well. Just because something happens to be true for a majority does not mean you should assume it of everyone.

i don't think the statement is "majority of white people are to some degree racists, so all white people should be labeled racist regardless of contraindicating evidence", I think the statement is "given the statistical prevalence of some degree of racism, it's fairly safe to assume some degree of racism until viable evidence arises to suggest a change in your assessment of that degree. either positive or negative".

such that when a police officer, who is a participant in a system that has documented and studied racism built into said system on several fundamental levels, commits an action it is relatively safe to assume (without need for extraneous evidence) that some degree of racism is likely to play some part in the committing of that action.


I understand that, and disagree with it. I disagree with "safe to assume" without evidence.

It is safe to say that the system, as a whole, is biased on race, because that's well supported by evidence. You should not, however, extrapolate from the generalization to an individual who simply happens to be a member without evidence. If you do, you will frequently be wrong due to that whole 'assuming without evidence' thing. Now, I'm not saying that the evidence has to be courtroom-level proof or anything, but it should be more than a generalization from a steriotype.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:12 pm UTC

When you get right down to it, though, any amount of evidence still amounts to a probabilistic argument.

And assuming Wilson is racist isn't done without evidence, what with the whole remorselessly killing a black kid and apparently not being the least bit bothered by KKK support things.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 10130
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:18 pm UTC

There is a chance of error in most things, yes. However, generalizing from steriotypes to individuals is particularly error prone, and makes a poor policy as a result.

Using the incident to say he must have had racist reasons for the incident is..a little odd.

I had not heard of responses to KKK support. In fact, hadn't heard much about them at all, and assumed most folks were just ignoring them as obvious extremists. What has he said about this?

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:57 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:There is a chance of error in most things, yes. However, generalizing from steriotypes to individuals is particularly error prone, and makes a poor policy as a result.
It's not a stereotype, it's the results of scientific research.

Using the incident to say he must have had racist reasons for the incident is..a little odd.
How is that odd? Would it be equally odd to point out participation in a lynching as evidence for a lynching participant's racism? Why not?

I had not heard of responses to KKK support.
There haven't been any to my knowledge, which is rather the point.

If the KKK was supporting me and I had any interest whatsoever in even seeming not to be racist, I would do everything I could to distance myself from their unwanted "support".
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8727
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:09 pm UTC

Or perhaps he just doesn't want to draw any attention to the fact that they exist? He still has friends in the police force, as evidenced by him marrying an older cop in an obvious attempt to protect himself from any civil issues (wanna bet everything he owns is in his wife's name?), so he's probably been advised on what to do and what to say. If they thought repudiating the Klan was the best move he would've. You said yourself that you believe the whole department helped craft his story.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9415
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:06 pm UTC

It's a dangerous world out there.
Things. Loads of social and professional Things have changed.

When we interact with the Police;
How are we supposed to do it?

Once upon a time, when I was pulled over, I was expected to get out of my car and walk to the Police car.
They usually met me about half way. Sometimes, they stayed by their car and waited. Then we Talked.

What the Hell are we supposed to do Now??
Call them 'Sir' before and after we are Shot??

Even when dealing with other Civilians, it can be Tricky.
We can assume most people, like Mike Brown, are armed with two arms if not a 9mm.

Within the last half hour, I had a man approach my car and demand that I lower my driver's side window.
I am sure he meant No Harm. But; Fuck Him.

I insisted that he use the passenger side.
That is more comfortable for me.

When professionals first started discussing keeping people inside their cars, it was for their protection.
When people are out of their cars, they can wander into traffic. Even Police got hit, sometimes.

Is it ok for me to insist that the Police use the passenger window?
I don't like to have a conversation from the driver's seat with a person standing outside the driver's window.

If I said, "No." Would it get me shot?
If I said, "No." Would it get me arrested?

I think, "No." is the Right answer.
The Police butt is in danger on the Traffic side of the car, too.

With regular people, "No." is absolutely The Right Answer.
I decided that on my own. A guy with a gun can Veto me.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 25782
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:50 pm UTC

phlip wrote:Cop uses his words to calm down suicidal student. Is disciplined and potentially fired for not using his taser instead.
In related "good cops exist but get fired when they behave well" news:

Former Buffalo Police Officer, Cariol Horne is fighting for her pension since she was fired after 19 years on the force, over an incident in 2006 when she stopped a fellow officer from choking a handcuffed suspect.

(Horne and the then-handcuffed suspect are both black, the fellow officer is white. But I'm sure it's still just speculation to say any racism was involved...)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9415
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:38 am UTC

If the Violence of The Police is Racist and only Racist,
Then everyone else is Fine!

(phew) Everyone else can breathe a Sigh of Relief.

No! Not everyone else is Safe!
A professional white woman that can keep her mouth shut and follow orders is running a lower risk.

It is so Wrong at its Core!
No One should live in fucking Fear the way the people of the US do.

We are frightened of one another; For Damn Good Reason.
We are frightened of the police; For Damn Good Reason.

The US walked into WWII for Four Freedoms.
Those freedoms were good enough for us and for some reason we thought they were good enough for others.

1. Freedom From Want.
2. Freedom From Fear.

Those two freedoms we give to one another using the Mechanisms of our Government.
The Police, The Social Workers, The Medical Personal. The Courts and The Coast Guard. The Helping Professions.

3. Freedom of Speech.
4. Freedom of Religion.

Those two freedoms we use to give back to our nation in gratitude.
We use our education and training to write and to speak our minds.
We use our religion to support and guide us as we contribute.

It seems like such a simple recipe.
We, as a people, have fucked it up.

How did we Fuck It Up?
Let's move back up The List.

4. Freedom of Religion.
Religion is personal.
Good people get the strength to do good things somewhere.
That somewhere is often our Religions.
Somehow between the Summer of Love and Tammy Fae Baker, we lost our way.

3. Freedom of Speech.
A good number of our people do not speak for themselves.
They speak for the TV or Radio like Parrots, not Patriots.

Many of our people read and speak so poorly in their one and only one language, they can not exercise the freedom of speech.
Like the stereotype of the US American; We keep talking anyway. Whether we have something to say or not.

2. Freedom from Fear.
(Why the Hell am I bothering.)
People Like to be Scared.

It seems the American People Like that edge of fear, at all times.
It must seem Exciting. Most seem to think the Real Danger is to others.

1. Freedom from Want.
You don't have a Right in US 2015 to be free from Want.
The Internet Posters will tell you, even if you don't ask.
"No one owes you anything in the US. You want it; Take It!"

"If you want something Get a Fucking Job."
"Make a bunch of Money and buy it like a Real American Does!"

Our people have been under extreme imaginary danger for fifteen years.
When the Real Deal shows up, we don't recognize it.

I am still floored by the man that called the Police that shot him, "Sir."
"Why did you shoot me? Sir." he said.

What the fuck kind of a nation is This??
How ingrained is saying, "Sir."
That man had been Shot and he said, 'Sir.'

OK! OK! You are be Right!!
It is systemic racism.

Racism is formally taught in Police Schools!
How awful. How shameful. This is EveryOne's Problem.

That is Not OK with me.
What can I do about it??

This is EveryOne's Problem!
What can I do??

As long as I can look White, I'm going to try that
until you get back to me with a second thing I can do.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests