Police misbehavior thread

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Coyne
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am UTC
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:14 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:Stop making stuff up. Guns generally are terrible for fingerprints.
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013 ... -firearms/


I agree with the fingerprints argument: guns suck for fingerprints. (Though I'm pretty sure fingerprints have been taken from guns and used in court, I imagine it's very rare.)

But that just means drop guns are even easier to plant...don't have to worry about fingerprints. An officer doing so also wouldn't have to worry about firing it; in fact it wouldn't even have to be loaded.

But that's all kind of a moot argument: these days, all an officer really needs to do is say, "I thought I saw a gun," or, "I thought he was reaching for a gun." That defense requires no physical evidence at all.
In all fairness...

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:32 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Stop making stuff up. Guns generally are terrible for fingerprints.
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013 ... -firearms/


I agree with the fingerprints argument: guns suck for fingerprints. (Though I'm pretty sure fingerprints have been taken from guns and used in court, I imagine it's very rare.)

But that just means drop guns are even easier to plant...don't have to worry about fingerprints. An officer doing so also wouldn't have to worry about firing it; in fact it wouldn't even have to be loaded.

But that's all kind of a moot argument: these days, all an officer really needs to do is say, "I thought I saw a gun," or, "I thought he was reaching for a gun." That defense requires no physical evidence at all.


Then any officer who mistakes anything that is obviously not a gun for a gun should be sacked for incompetence...

User avatar
Coyne
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am UTC
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:21 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Then any officer who mistakes anything that is obviously not a gun for a gun should be sacked for incompetence...


This is one of the reasons that body cameras need to be more widespread. Right now, the defense is purely subjective: "I believed." Body cameras give us an objective perspective, so that we can evaluate the reasonableness of the officer's claim. Absent that--and with the trust legitimately given to officers who do the job well--an officer who is a miscreant can hide behind the subjective defense, safe from any repercussion.
In all fairness...

User avatar
Paul in Saudi
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

It seems if you are sufficiently cowardly, you may kill whoever you like.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:27 pm UTC



Strictly speaking, shot in the back does not mean an unjustified killing. Human reaction times are a bit slow sometimes. There's a lag between recognizing a threat and firing, and in that time, people can move.

This, however, is not proof of the police allegations, merely an acknowledgement that they are possibly valid.

gmalivuk wrote:What? Framing someone after they shoot him requires as little as setting a gun next to him after he's down. Sometimes it requres only *saying* they saw a gun.


Precisely. If the guy has a cell phone on him, they can claim they confused that for a gun, for instance. Which is really strange, mind you, but it's worked before. It's not really a matter of a complicated frame job, but if cops can, post shooting, come up with a justification. And they generally can.

There isn't proof that this happened here, but...body-cams would at least give us a lot more to work with in that regard. And surely, there's a bias here in that police are given MUCH more latitude in shooting fleeing suspects than the rest of the population is.

CorruptUser wrote:Then any officer who mistakes anything that is obviously not a gun for a gun should be sacked for incompetence...


And convicted, just as you or I would be if we decided to shoot someone and then use such a crappy defense.

Paul in Saudi wrote:It seems if you are sufficiently cowardly, you may kill whoever you like.


*shrug* Fear shouldn't even be a factor. Acting overly fearful does not give you any more cause to kill a man. The threat *must* be legitimate for the response to be so.

Chen
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:There isn't proof that this happened here, but...body-cams would at least give us a lot more to work with in that regard. And surely, there's a bias here in that police are given MUCH more latitude in shooting fleeing suspects than the rest of the population is.


Police generally DO have more latitude in shooting fleeing suspects compared to the rest of the population. From SCOTUS in Tennessee v. Garner:

Law enforcement officers pursuing an unarmed suspect may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.


I'm fairly sure that is NOT the same standard to which an individual may shoot a fleeing felon. I'm not sure how far the "serious injury to others" part has been tested. I would presume that is why the officers here said that Ball-Bey aimed the gun at them so they shot him, rather than simply saying they shot him because they feared he'd harm someone else with the gun if they let him flee. Barring cameras we don't know about I don't see how we can be sure of the truth in this case. There's only the officers' story and a single shot out of 4 that hit and killed Ball-Bey from the back. He may have aimed at them, and turn and run after they started shooting resulting in him getting shot in the back. Or they could have just shot him in the back as he was running away without him ever having turned and/or aimed at them. Really the only other witness is the other person who was fleeing with Ball-Bey. And neither him nor the officers in question are the type of independent witness you'd want in this situation anyways.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:51 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:It seems if you are sufficiently cowardly, you may kill whoever you like.


Not exactly. One of my co-workers was a cop. 6'6, over 300 lbs, basically a shaved bear. He was NOT the best cop on the force; a little woman under 100 pounds was. Why? Well, when he had to arrive at a scene (and for some reason, him just arriving wasn't enough), the threat level had to be enough for a 300 pound man to be, umm, threatened in order for him to use pepper spray or his baton or a gun. But the tiny woman went through more pepper spray than any other cop on the force because just about everyone, armed or not, was a threat to her.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:09 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:It seems if you are sufficiently cowardly, you may kill whoever you like.


Not exactly. One of my co-workers was a cop. 6'6, over 300 lbs, basically a shaved bear. He was NOT the best cop on the force; a little woman under 100 pounds was. Why? Well, when he had to arrive at a scene (and for some reason, him just arriving wasn't enough), the threat level had to be enough for a 300 pound man to be, umm, threatened in order for him to use pepper spray or his baton or a gun. But the tiny woman went through more pepper spray than any other cop on the force because just about everyone, armed or not, was a threat to her.


Now, this just might be me, but one would think that the best cop on the force would be the one that never rarely had to resort to violence to keep the peace. I always thought it was the cops' job to de-escalate the situation, not make it worse. Just sayin'.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:24 pm UTC

Nooope. He had the least trouble of anyone on the force (most people don't fight with a shaved bear), but she was the best cop, and least likely to be injured, since going straight to pepper spray is the safest option.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:28 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Nooope. He had the least trouble of anyone on the force (most people don't fight with a shaved bear), but she was the best cop, and least likely to be injured, since going straight to pepper spray is the safest option.

how does "used her pepper spray the most" equate in your mind to "best cop"?
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:30 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Nooope. He had the least trouble of anyone on the force (most people don't fight with a shaved bear), but she was the best cop, and least likely to be injured, since going straight to pepper spray is the safest option.


I fail to see the correlation of "used pepper spray the most" and "best cop", for the reason I already noted above.

EDIT: ninja'd by DSenette.
Last edited by eran_rathan on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:31 pm UTC

"Best" from the viewpoint of the police. Least likely to be injured, most likely to arrest the suspect. Policework was safer for her than it was for my coworker...

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:39 pm UTC

well then the metric that your police department uses is completely invalid.

if big scary dude had zero violent interactions with the public, and lady cop had basically 100% violent interactions with the public, then she is, in fact....the worst cop.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:40 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:well then the metric that your police department uses is completely invalid.

if big scary dude had zero violent interactions with the public, and lady cop had basically 100% violent interactions with the public, then she is, in fact....the worst cop.


The metric from the point of view from the police. Oh, and he didn't have that many fewer violent interactions; someone crazy enough to get violent with a cop isn't going to stop simply because the cop could step on them.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:49 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
DSenette wrote:well then the metric that your police department uses is completely invalid.

if big scary dude had zero violent interactions with the public, and lady cop had basically 100% violent interactions with the public, then she is, in fact....the worst cop.


The metric from the point of view from the police. Oh, and he didn't have that many fewer violent interactions; someone crazy enough to get violent with a cop isn't going to stop simply because the cop could step on them.


Then the police department had a really fucked up metric, mate, and those people probably shouldn't be involved in police work.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:It seems if you are sufficiently cowardly, you may kill whoever you like.
Not exactly. One of my co-workers was a cop. 6'6, over 300 lbs, basically a shaved bear. He was NOT the best cop on the force; a little woman under 100 pounds was.
Even if we ignore the police's fucked up metric for "best", how is this a response to Paul in Saudi's statement?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:21 pm UTC

Got a bit off tangent; I think my original thought was about how he needed a certain "threat level" before he could engage in violence, and that the threat level was higher for him than it was for the other cops due to his size, and that "the suspect assaulted me" wouldn't be as easy to claim for a big cop as it would for a little cop. For example, the Michael Brown case; if the cop had been a 5'2 woman 1/3 the size of Brown it probably wouldn't have made the news.

elasto
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:09 am UTC

And, again, I think this points to a big difference in attitude as to what the police's job actually is.

Policing a hostile populace in a warzone, sure, perhaps the only option is to enforce rules by force. Feel free to whip out the pepper spray the moment the suspect does not comply with your demands, no matter how arbitrary.

In most other civilized nations though, it's realized that it's most productive to police by consent, by seeking to form a partnership with the public; Always first seeking to descalate any situation will entail more personal risk than always turning to overwhelming force, but it wins more hearts and minds in the long run.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:41 am UTC

But which officer will have a longer career? My coworker is no longer an officer due to injuries sustained on the job (incidentally, during a training exercise), while AFAIK the tiny woman still is. And from the viewpoint of the police...

Yes, we do need actual metrics for judging police officers, and an internal affairs that's more than just wink wink nudge nudge. I just don't see it being cheap to implement though. Other than bodycams, which actually are doubly nice; officers can't make blatant lies anymore, but it helps officers since it reduces the number of complaints filed against them.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But which officer will have a longer career? My coworker is no longer an officer due to injuries sustained on the job (incidentally, during a training exercise), while AFAIK the tiny woman still is. And from the viewpoint of the police...


so again, a completely useless anecdote? which officer will have a longer career? the one that pepper sprays everyone or the one that injures themselves during a training exercise?
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:37 pm UTC

elasto wrote:And, again, I think this points to a big difference in attitude as to what the police's job actually is.

Policing a hostile populace in a warzone, sure, perhaps the only option is to enforce rules by force. Feel free to whip out the pepper spray the moment the suspect does not comply with your demands, no matter how arbitrary.

In most other civilized nations though, it's realized that it's most productive to police by consent, by seeking to form a partnership with the public; Always first seeking to descalate any situation will entail more personal risk than always turning to overwhelming force, but it wins more hearts and minds in the long run.


I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as policing by consent. The police by definition are the violent enforcers of the laws of the state, that is their job. There are next to no scenarios that as a violator of a law that you get to argue a non-compliance. it is always escalated forced compliance and as soon as a you don't comply, then another lever is used to coerce compliance, eventually and invariably upto and including violent enforcement. This is exactly what happens in all states, whether people live somewhere they are "policed by consent" or not.

Societies "Policed by consent" in practice collapse down to societies that "obey the law" almost perfectly

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:58 pm UTC

leady wrote:
elasto wrote:And, again, I think this points to a big difference in attitude as to what the police's job actually is.

Policing a hostile populace in a warzone, sure, perhaps the only option is to enforce rules by force. Feel free to whip out the pepper spray the moment the suspect does not comply with your demands, no matter how arbitrary.

In most other civilized nations though, it's realized that it's most productive to police by consent, by seeking to form a partnership with the public; Always first seeking to descalate any situation will entail more personal risk than always turning to overwhelming force, but it wins more hearts and minds in the long run.


I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as policing by consent. The police by definition are the violent enforcers of the laws of the state, that is their job. There are next to no scenarios that as a violator of a law that you get to argue a non-compliance. it is always escalated forced compliance and as soon as a you don't comply, then another lever is used to coerce compliance, eventually and invariably upto and including violent enforcement. This is exactly what happens in all states, whether people live somewhere they are "policed by consent" or not.

Societies "Policed by consent" in practice collapse down to societies that "obey the law" almost perfectly


I think you might be confused by the US's theory of "policing by overwhelming force", rather than the original intent of the police.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

EDIT TO ADD: Most of the principles have been willfully disregarded by the US, which (IMHO) contributes in no small part to the overwhelming distrust of the cops in the US.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:47 pm UTC

The only difference in the UK and US policing styles is almost entirely due to the view of initial risk. You will find pretty difficult to see the difference in the police set up in the US hitting a suspected gang murderer and when the MET hits the equivalent under operation Trident. However the typical risk to a UK officer on a traffic stop is practically nil

If you try to ignore or walk away from a UK officer in the process of questioning you on the suspicion of a crime, then before you can say "oh my god, this country has no bill of rights" then you will be detained physically, continue to resist and you get cuffed, resist in any manner that threatens the cop in any way including speech and you are on the path to the use of punching, clubbing and tazing to force compliance whilst you lie on the floor.

Our accents might make the police seem like they are asking politely, but legally they are far more orders than the US could dream of. The difference you perceive as the police being nice is actually a complete culture of passive compliance to law, meaning that the police are a bit less clubby. In the 50s for example it was an accepted outcome that if you got drunk and picked up by the black maria that you got a kicking by the cops as a natural consequence (ditto most petty crimes). That is not "policing by consent", its a "culture of compliance" & "culture of criminal acceptance" and its looked on fondly by old folks :)

Chen
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:59 pm UTC

Im surprised they cite Canada as following the whole "policing by consent" bit. While perhaps less militarized than the US, the general police behavior is pretty similar.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:18 pm UTC

elasto wrote:And, again, I think this points to a big difference in attitude as to what the police's job actually is.

Policing a hostile populace in a warzone, sure, perhaps the only option is to enforce rules by force. Feel free to whip out the pepper spray the moment the suspect does not comply with your demands, no matter how arbitrary.

In most other civilized nations though, it's realized that it's most productive to police by consent, by seeking to form a partnership with the public; Always first seeking to descalate any situation will entail more personal risk than always turning to overwhelming force, but it wins more hearts and minds in the long run.


Even in a war zone, you don't wanna be TOO unreasonable. Yes, crazy situations exist, but getting too arbitrary/hostile/violent can just result in making more enemies. There's a balance, and good judgement is necessary.

leady wrote:I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as policing by consent. The police by definition are the violent enforcers of the laws of the state, that is their job. There are next to no scenarios that as a violator of a law that you get to argue a non-compliance. it is always escalated forced compliance and as soon as a you don't comply, then another lever is used to coerce compliance, eventually and invariably upto and including violent enforcement. This is exactly what happens in all states, whether people live somewhere they are "policed by consent" or not.

Societies "Policed by consent" in practice collapse down to societies that "obey the law" almost perfectly


Well, there's some important distinctions here that differ in policing styles. In one, the rules are community set, and everyone in the community feels some responsibility for enforcing them, though the police naturally have it as their job to do so. Still, they approach it from the perspective as part of the community.

Then there's the "screw you, we are the LAW, and even the slightest sign of dislike or disagreement with our authority will be met with overwelming force" perspective.

Yeah, sure, all law enforcement eventually requires force as an option, but how you get there matters.

elasto
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:23 pm UTC

leady wrote:The only difference in the UK and US policing styles is almost entirely due to the view of initial risk. You will find pretty difficult to see the difference in the police set up in the US hitting a suspected gang murderer and when the MET hits the equivalent under operation Trident. However the typical risk to a UK officer on a traffic stop is practically nil

If you try to ignore or walk away from a UK officer in the process of questioning you on the suspicion of a crime, then before you can say "oh my god, this country has no bill of rights" then you will be detained physically, continue to resist and you get cuffed, resist in any manner that threatens the cop in any way including speech and you are on the path to the use of punching, clubbing and tazing to force compliance whilst you lie on the floor.


This is categorically not true. Here is just one example of the fundamental differences in attitude in the UK:

Suspects fleeing police on motorcycles and mopeds in London are routinely avoiding arrest by removing their crash helmets, it has emerged.

In an email sent to the BBC in error, the Met Police revealed many suspects take off their helmets when riding away from officers in pursuit. Officers "rarely chase" helmetless riders because there is a likelihood they will die if they fall, it said.

The Met said it had a "moral duty" to protect the public and offenders.

In the message, a member of the force's staff said moped and motorcycle riding suspects were "pretty much impossible to stop". "They use these vehicles because they can go through pedestrian/baby buggy barriers," the staff member said. "Many now take their helmets off when riding away from police so we stop immediately".

In response, Det Supt Raffaele D'orsi said: "We have a moral duty and actually a mandate as police officers to protect the public, that includes offenders who are trying to escape from us.


Can you ever imagine a police officer in the US uttering that last statement? In the US, if someone is killed fleeing a crime, it's regarded as their own damn fault. In the UK, we say that most criminals don't deserve the death penalty for their crime.

It's a completely different attitude: Both the innocent and the guilty are treated with far greater respect in the UK, and that reaps a reward in terms of respect in return.

link

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:27 pm UTC

Honestly, I'd be totally okay with the whole "apprending fleeing suspects" getting dialed down some. We pretty much accept that citizens shouldn't be shooting people in the back without clear and present danger, world ain't gonna end if cops have the same burden.

speising
Posts: 2353
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:54 pm UTC
Location: wien

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:57 pm UTC

Don't they have license plates on their rides in the UK? Fleeing police seems like a delaying action, at best. And it heaps a few additional charges on them.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 pm UTC

Can you ever imagine a police officer in the US uttering that last statement? In the US, if someone is killed fleeing a crime, it's regarded as their own damn fault. In the UK, we say that most criminals don't deserve the death penalty for their crime.

It's a completely different attitude: Both the innocent and the guilty are treated with far greater respect in the UK, and that reaps a reward in terms of respect in return.


In the message, a member of the force's staff said moped and motorcycle riding suspects were "pretty much impossible to stop". "They use these vehicles because they can go through pedestrian/baby buggy barriers," the staff member said. "Many now take their helmets off when riding away from police so we stop immediately".


They are uncatchable - what you are reading is the police explaining away their inability to successfully operate. Don't read this as them being nice, its them being beaten (London is an 18th century Maze) and using the UKs 'elf and safety laws as the excuse. They seem to have no such qualms about high speed pursuits generally and regularly mow down innocent pedestrians

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:56 pm UTC

Doesn't England also have a lower crime rate and less of a problem with drugs than the US? What works in one place may not work in another.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:04 pm UTC

Its a hard comparison, because most comparisons to the US are really flawed

If you compare the UK as an effective big ass city state :) and compare it to urban USA, then its property crime is still higher (owners can't defend themselves), robbery is about the same (mostly knife rather than gun, this is one where a US as a whole comparison skews the UK to look far worse) and all gun crime is much much lower (leading to less critical pursuits, arrests and general paranoia). Removing the gun murder rate equalises that too broadly. Alcohol related stuff we win at (naturally), drugs we lose and we draw broadly on domestic stuff. I think sex stuff is about the same (again this is far worse in the UK compared to the US as a whole). But take this all with a pinch of salt because its from memory :) and i'm not going to argue mistakes

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Doesn't England also have a lower crime rate and less of a problem with drugs than the US? What works in one place may not work in another.


Our failed war on drugs is indeed also to blame for much of this, yes.

User avatar
Coyne
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am UTC
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:45 am UTC

SWAT team breaks into wrong Worcester house, residents say

Police raided the home of Marianne Diaz at 5:30 AM, Wednesday, August 19. The held her naked and at gunpoint in front of her two daughters, aged 7 years and 18 months.

"Stop [expletive] crying and take care of your [expletive] kids. At one point, they had her spread her legs for a pat search, even though she was naked. She was otherwise kept kneeling naked, at gunpoint, for ten minutes while the officers searched.

The home also contained Joshual Matos, who was sleeping, and Diaz' fiancee, Bryant Alequin. Matos' fractured wrist was reinjured during the entry of the police. Alequin was in the bathroom; he was thrown to the ground and also received an injury.

The police then proceeded to do a detailed search of the house for a person, Shane Jackson, who had not lived in the home since at least February. Nothing was seized and no one was arrested. One of the officers was reported to have said, "Oh [expletive], the snake got away."

The kicker: The no-knock warrant was prepared by Trooper Nicholas E. Nason, who stated a confidential informant had told him (in the last 72 hours) that Jackson was staying there. But Nason had subsequently verified that the electric bill was in Diaz' name, and that motor vehicles had only Diaz and someone named Shamel Legree listed at that address.

The killer: Shane Jackson had been arrested on a theft warrant two weeks prior; that warrant contained his current address, 71 Sylvan St. He had multiple open court cases that all listed that same address. Diaz resides at 17 Hillside St. Apt. 3.

District Attorney Joseph D Early Jr. said the police acted on the "best intelligence available." He is, apparently, sticking to the story that Jackson was at the Hillside address mere days before.

Before they left, the police informed Ms. Diaz that they had, "Treated her with respect."

Random thoughts:
  • Poor or no due diligence. Ignoring evidence the officer "didn't" want to hear.
  • Failure apparently, to even look up the person they were seeking. (What the hell are all those computers for, anyway?) Wouldn't you want to try last known address first?
  • The infamous confidential informant ("So, partner, you want call me and be the confidential informant this time? Or shall I?")
  • Unnecessary no-knock warrant, with a nighttime invasion.
  • Just where did they think naked Ms. Diaz was hiding a weapon?
  • A detailed search--for a person? The way I hear it, a warrant for a person allows search of anyplace a person may hide, but nothing smaller.

Would you feel respected? I wouldn't have. In fact, it looks to me like they have a complete disregard for the rights of innocent bystanders.
In all fairness...

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10495
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:34 am UTC

That's harsher than what the US typically did when raiding homes in Iraq. At least before towards the end of the war when the US brought back the death squads began relying on local militias...

User avatar
Qaanol
The Cheshirest Catamount
Posts: 3069
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 11:55 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Qaanol » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:53 pm UTC

And now for some positive news. Earlier this month a Texas police officer responding to a call at a house was bitten by a dog, and didn’t kill the dog.
wee free kings

User avatar
Paul in Saudi
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:15 am UTC

Dayton Police Officer Pulls Over Black Man For Making Eye Contact http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/Dayton-Police-Officer-Pulls-Over-Black-Man-for-Making-Eye-Contact-191723.shtml

Why yes, the police officer said so, on video.

User avatar
Coyne
Posts: 1101
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am UTC
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:23 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:Dayton Police Officer Pulls Over Black Man For Making Eye Contact http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/Dayton-Police-Officer-Pulls-Over-Black-Man-for-Making-Eye-Contact-191723.shtml

Why yes, the police officer said so, on video.


Failure to be properly subservient. That's probably the same thing that got Sandra Bland in trouble.

Growing Up African American: Struggling Through the Legacy of Slavery and Jim Crow Segregation (Google book; start with the the paragraph "Posture and Attitudes"):

In "Jim Crow" America, African American males were forced to assume the subservient posture, and they were not allowed to look Caucasians directly in the eye. [...]

If these codes were violated individuals were beaten and often lynched by mobs. During "Jim Crow" segregation African American males were particularly discouraged from looking Caucasian females in the eyes. African American males found looking Caucasian females in the eyes were convicted of "eye Rape"; They were ultimately imprisoned or hung.


But of course today's Caucasians will tell you racism is dead.
In all fairness...

Cradarc
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:30 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Cradarc » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:36 pm UTC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-sheriffs-deputy-killed-in-ambush-at-gas-station_55e1354fe4b0c818f6181672
The killer was merely defending himself because the racist cop was clearly attempting to pull out a gun and shoot him in the face.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 300 character limit.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:20 am UTC

Cradarc wrote:The killer was merely defending himself because the racist cop was clearly attempting to pull out a gun and shoot him in the face.
No, cops are the ones who usually make up bullshit stories like that.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Cradarc
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:30 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Cradarc » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:07 am UTC

Cops like the one who died? Discrimination and prejudice exists because people associate particular incidents with an entire social group. All people would make up bullshit stories to defend themselves. Isolating cops only sows distrust towards law enforcement in general.

People don't wake up one day and think "I'm going to kill a cop". Cops also don't wake up one day and think "I'm going to kill a black dude". There is a continuous social conflict between law enforcement and particular communities of young black males. Ignoring that while over-analyzing the motive behind every single shooting is detrimental to progress. There are always cases that provide solid evidence against one side over another, but demonizing either side would only push both sides further away.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 300 character limit.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests