Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:39 pm UTC

Military police behaving badly:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 79686.html

Thomas Fulton, 28, and Jeremy Jones, also 28, are accused of raping army corporal Anne-Marie Ellement on November 20 2009. The two men, who have since left the army, have admitted having sex with Corporal Ellement but have said she consented.

Fulton - the boyfriend of Cpl Ellement's friend Cpl Sarah Noteyoung - and Jones were at the bar along with two others when she arrived. She later recounted drinking a total of eight drinks there, including shots and a Red Bull cocktail with vodka. Ms Whitehouse told the panel Cpl Ellement, Jones and Fulton - wearing their uniforms - were seen flirting and kissing at the bar.

Cpl Ellement, then 28, said she told him she found the idea of a threesome "disgusting" and she would never have one. The three colleagues went upstairs to Jones's room at about 12.30am so he could get changed to go out to another bar, she added.


qui custodet ipsos custodes and all that, eh? Must have been very reassuring for any drunken thug whose libido sometimes took priority over his desire to obtain consent, knowing that the military police felt the same way. Probably not the story the army would rush to include in its recruitment material at a girls' school, though.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:45 am UTC

I'm curious as to who is testifying about the victim's statements. Such as the one where she found threesomes disgusting. Is the prosecutor allowed to be making these hearsay statements? Were they written down before the death of the victim?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:16 pm UTC

? She died two years after that she had plenty of time to make statements to a lawyer or the police.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:20 pm UTC

They were arrested right after the fact. Sounds like they've got her story on a video interview. Probably the case just took 6.5 years to get to trial, maybe in part due to her death. No idea, but courts are slow.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:52 pm UTC

My question was more to how the statements would be brought up in court. Who's going to be the witness that can be cross-examined when statements like that are made?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:45 am UTC

Chen wrote:I'm curious as to who is testifying about the victim's statements. Such as the one where she found threesomes disgusting. Is the prosecutor allowed to be making these hearsay statements? Were they written down before the death of the victim?

There are exceptions to hearsay, though I don't know which of those might apply here. But if, for example, two people heard her say that, it would be evidence.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:46 am UTC

I assume that if she made an official statement to the authorities than that'll count as evidence, even if she died later.

The problem I see is that she can't give any additional statements, can't answer questions or give clarifications. I'm not a legal expert, but I can see that severely undermining usefulness of her statement in a trial. Any decent lawyer should be able to find plenty of nits to pick: "According to her testimony, X happened. But her testimony doesn't say when X happened, so ...".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:33 pm UTC

Not really police in this story...it's the authorities at private prison companies...but that just makes it more horrifying, doesn't it? Key snippets:

In their financial reports, prison companies chalk up negative publicity generated by riots and other problems as a cost of doing business, but even violence and disorder can bring in revenue.

A 2015 study found that the average prisoner at private prisons in Mississippi spent an additional two to three months behind bars because private facilities handed out twice as many conduct violations as public facilities. The government typically pays prison companies a daily rate for each prisoner held in a private facility, and holding one prisoner an extra two months costs about $3,000.

[...]

The bulk of CCA and GEO Group's multibillion-dollar revenue stream comes from taxpayers, but both companies have found a way to avoid paying millions of dollars in income taxes by converting themselves into real estate investment trusts, or "REITs." Activists say these diverted tax revenues encourage powerful investors to manipulate politicians and shape public policy to favor incarceration.

[...]

Shareholders, including wealthy employees with stock in the companies, can now benefit from mass incarceration tax-free.

Alex Friedmann, the associate director of the Human Rights Defense Center and managing editor of Prison Legal News, said the idea that CCA and GEO Group are real estate companies is largely based on fiction.

"[It's] a stretch, but not as great a stretch as claims that private prisons are cost-effective, provide equivalent services as government-run prisons and are accountable to the taxpaying public that funds private prison contracts," Friedmann told Truthout.

[Full story here.]

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:11 am UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:54 am UTC


That story is obviously appalling in and of itself, but why was he even locked in jail to begin with? Even if the staff genuinely thought he was choosing not to drink for days all the while screaming for people to help him, surely his mental illness was obvious to all? I mean, the original call to the police was because of a mental breakdown, and he was only charged with a misdemeaner. Why wasn't he sent straight to hospital for his mental issues even if we put to one side his physical issues?

And all this in the richest - and some would claim the greatest - country in the world; Nay, in the history of the world...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Military police behaving badly.

Update:

Former soldiers cleared of raping female colleague Anne-Marie Ellement

Thomas Fulton and Jeremy Jones, both 28, were found not guilty of two charges of rape but told their conduct on the night of 20 November had nonetheless been "disgraceful".

Cpl Ellement was found hanged in her barracks at Bulford in Wiltshire on 9 October 2011, almost exactly two years after engaging in a drunk threesome with the two men while they were stationed in Germany.

A seven-strong court martial board on Thursday found the sex was consensual, but judge Jeff Blackett nonetheless condemned their behaviour on the night in question.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:19 am UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:30 am UTC


Your link is just a ripoff link. Here's the original.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -died.html
"“Despite medical staff’s incorrect diagnoses of Mr. Williams before his death, the undisputed evidence is that the medical professionals who examined and treated Mr. Williams sincerely believed he was faking paralysis,” Brewster wrote."
How incompetent is the medical staff there? Or is medical staff a fancy way of saying minimum wage slave who got handed a medical flier?
Edit: nevermind, the source article indicates that nurses thought he was fine. The cops are institutionally cold and uncaring, we all get that. But why are the nurses so incompetent?
"Williams told nurses he couldn’t move and felt like his neck was broken, court papers state. One nurse told sheriff’s investigators she massaged his neck for a bit, then left him in the cell. She told an oncoming nurse that Williams was “fine” despite his complaints, according to a disciplinary report for the employee found in court documents. one nurse told him he should be “ashamed” of his behavior and to “quit faking.” She also told him to get his “nasty ass” in the shower, court documents say."


The only thing I can say is if a problem ends with a person, then you didn't really find the source of the problem. What's going on here where incompetent nurses and incompetent/racist jailers don't know how to do their jobs?
"a larger systemic issue, particularly with the Tulsa County sheriff’s office,” he added. “When you allow corners to be cut and view human life as less than human life, very evil, tragic things happen.”"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HES » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:46 am UTC

There is a really easy test if you think someone is faking paralysis (or unconsciousness) - lift their hand above their face, and let go.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:56 pm UTC

HES wrote:There is a really easy test if you think someone is faking paralysis (or unconsciousness) - lift their hand above their face, and let go.

The bigger issue is even using the cruel, inefficient test they used, they disregarded it anyway. They thought he was faking it, so they left him without water for hours. At that point, assume he's paralyzed .

This scandal only makes sense when you read the source article. This is a lack of funding and resources issue. All these dumb excuses are just excuses not to raise taxes on these cheapskates public.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:10 pm UTC

HES wrote:There is a really easy test if you think someone is faking paralysis (or unconsciousness) - lift their hand above their face, and let go.

This is really dumb. Most paralysed people aren't completely paralysed. Paralysis often happens due spinal injury. This means they still have full control over all muscles above the neck, and depending on the type of injury they'll often have some control over some muscles lower down.

If you'd read the article you'd know that that was the case here as well.
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Illinois considers trying to limit prison for the innocent.

Postby wumpus » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:42 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada ... ntent=link

Pretty bad when you understand that the legal system will simply take whoever the cops first arrest and lock them up. Illinois now considering not prosecuting and throwing into prison the obviously innocent by adding some sort of "pretrial check" before the "lock up the defendant" trial.

The steps needed up from "rock bottom" in the US should scare anyone.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:07 am UTC

Yes.
It is frightening in the USA.

The Terrorists have won.
Many of us are Terrified.

Yet; You bring good news, for some.

Once arrested in the USA,
the outlook is grim.
Moreland did not know it at the time, but she was the beneficiary of a new programme created by St Clair County State's Attorney Brendan Kelly: the Actual Innocence Claim Policy and Protocol. It is a unique, pre-conviction intervention which attempts to prevent the "actually innocent" from going through a trial, taking a plea deal, or ending up in prison.

To take a plea deal is So common.
What would you do?

If told, "We Can convict you!"
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"You go home."

"Don't sign these papers;"
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Think about it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:28 pm UTC

Surely, even if someone IS faking, the correct procedure for that is not "let them slowly die", yes?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:59 am UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:57 pm UTC


Unfounded accusation of stealing a tomato.

Maybe the mall security guard ( guy hired by Walmart when he's not working for city) wanted to give the guy the city's money by beating him in an unjust manner. It's his way of spreading the wealth.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:26 pm UTC

Article uses "Robocop mode", a story of crazed unstoppable violence, and a defeated person rebuilt with titanium limbs.

Hopefully this ends with Carnegay's explosion filled quest for justice.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:57 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Article uses "Robocop mode", a story of crazed unstoppable violence, and a defeated person rebuilt with titanium limbs.

Hopefully this ends with Carnegay's explosion filled quest for justice.


Yeah, but it also involves the development of a murderous and malfunctioning law enforcement robot, and I think we can all agree we have enough murderous and malfunctioning law enforcement as it is.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:34 pm UTC

(The video doesn't work for me, probably because I disabled that miserable Flash, so here's a Youtube.)

How about that manager? "He stole a tomato from us back in October 2014." Talk about a memory, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby solune » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:12 am UTC

Cop found guilty, and the juge is pretty pissed at the cop's lawyer
The victim and his team had to spend about 300k$ to successfully procecute the cop.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ijuin » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Surely, even if someone IS faking, the correct procedure for that is not "let them slowly die", yes?


The catch is that they refused to believe that he was dying until it was too late.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:58 pm UTC

Well if someone doesn't drink (among other things) they will eventually die.

(Nevermind that we all eventually die).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:02 am UTC

solune wrote:Cop found guilty, and the juge is pretty pissed at the cop's lawyer
The victim and his team had to spend about 300k$ to successfully procecute the cop.

I see evidence of flashing lights, both in the behavior of other motorists, and in the white stripes along the highway. It's hard for me to believe the motorcyclist drove for three miles, at least, and never noticed. I can't tell about siren.

Yes, it was excessive force, but I just wish the plaintiff hadn't been such an obvious scofflaw. "I didn't see you for three miles, officer. La-dee-dah!" BS
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:24 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
solune wrote:Cop found guilty, and the juge is pretty pissed at the cop's lawyer
The victim and his team had to spend about 300k$ to successfully procecute the cop.

I see evidence of flashing lights, both in the behavior of other motorists, and in the white stripes along the highway. It's hard for me to believe the motorcyclist drove for three miles, at least, and never noticed. I can't tell about siren.

Yes, it was excessive force, but I just wish the plaintiff hadn't been such an obvious scofflaw. "I didn't see you for three miles, officer. La-dee-dah!" BS

Would you prefer that only virgins blessed by saints are allowed to press charges against criminal police officers? The world isn't black and white, and prosecutors have to do the best job they can with the cards dealt.

PS Authority figures do what you suggest all the time, and it's unconstitutional. All people have equal protection under the law, alleged criminals (speeding drivers ) too. What you're suggesting is especially malicious because your ignorant viewpoint is widely held. Did you know that you can get away with raping a prostitute because prosecutors wish she wasn't an obvious scofflaw? It's the same reason you can torture black people. Just sprinkle crack on them, and all their rights go away.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:07 am UTC

It's a good idea for everyone to periodically review these handy tips for police interactions. Obviously, your local laws may vary.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:24 am UTC

sardia wrote:Would you prefer that only virgins blessed by saints are allowed to press charges against criminal police officers? The world isn't black and white, and prosecutors have to do the best job they can with the cards dealt.

PS Authority figures do what you suggest all the time, and it's unconstitutional. All people have equal protection under the law, alleged criminals (speeding drivers ) too. What you're suggesting is especially malicious because your ignorant viewpoint is widely held. Did you know that you can get away with raping a prostitute because prosecutors wish she wasn't an obvious scofflaw? It's the same reason you can torture black people. Just sprinkle crack on them, and all their rights go away.

Whoa up there.

I was just pointing out that I have no problem with him and the officer sharing a prison cell for a while; the officer for abuse of authority, battery and assault with a deadly weapon, and the citizen for fleeing/evading and perjury. I think they'd make fine company, learn a great deal from each other.

It's just that it damages my sympathy for this scion of society, that he's such an obvious liar. Not to mention being a complete idiot: come on, speed-passing a police car?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:30 am UTC

Coyne wrote:It's just that it damages my sympathy for this scion of society, that he's such an obvious liar. Not to mention being a complete idiot: come on, speed-passing a police car?

It was unmarked.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby solune » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:58 am UTC

Coyne wrote:I see evidence of flashing lights, both in the behavior of other motorists, and in the white stripes along the highway.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Are you talking about the rainbow (red/green/blue) artefacts caused by the camera optics ?
The driver doesn't seem to be in a hurry at all. He slows down before passing cars, and at each turn. He seems to be driving exactly like someone who cares a bit about safety but not too much about legal speed limits.

Anyhow the big point here, and in all of this thread is not the initial incident, but how hard it was to get to a trial at all.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:37 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
Whoa up there.

I was just pointing out that I have no problem with him and the officer sharing a prison cell for a while; the officer for abuse of authority, battery and assault with a deadly weapon, and the citizen for fleeing/evading and perjury. I think they'd make fine company, learn a great deal from each other.

It's just that it damages my sympathy for this scion of society, that he's such an obvious liar. Not to mention being a complete idiot: come on, speed-passing a police car?

Imagine the driver was a pedophile that kicked bunnies, and then the cops did the same thing. Any jury who shares your beliefs about being sympathetic would give the cops a pass. A lot of people have this belief and all it does is give a pass to criminals who victimize anyone who is unsympathetic aka minorities. That's why it's a bad idea and why it's unconstitutional.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:33 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Coyne wrote:
Whoa up there.

I was just pointing out that I have no problem with him and the officer sharing a prison cell for a while; the officer for abuse of authority, battery and assault with a deadly weapon, and the citizen for fleeing/evading and perjury. I think they'd make fine company, learn a great deal from each other.

It's just that it damages my sympathy for this scion of society, that he's such an obvious liar. Not to mention being a complete idiot: come on, speed-passing a police car?

Imagine the driver was a pedophile that kicked bunnies, and then the cops did the same thing. Any jury who shares your beliefs about being sympathetic would give the cops a pass. A lot of people have this belief and all it does is give a pass to criminals who victimize anyone who is unsympathetic aka minorities. That's why it's a bad idea and why it's unconstitutional.


Coyne hasn't said anything about giving the cops a pass, just that the cop being a violent lunatic doesn't negate the fact that the victim also broke the law (a much less serious law).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:18 pm UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:
Coyne hasn't said anything about giving the cops a pass, just that the cop being a violent lunatic doesn't negate the fact that the victim also broke the law (a much less serious law).
actually it often does negate any crimes done by police officers. Try to remember the last time a man was convicted of raping a prostitute. It doesn't happen often because the victim isn't sympathetic.
What purpose does it serve to bring up how sympathetic the victim is?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:51 pm UTC

Grop wrote:Well if someone doesn't drink (among other things) they will eventually die.

(Nevermind that we all eventually die).


Yeah.

It shouldn't be that hard to track if a prisoner is eating and drinking. Particularly if he's just laying there constantly, doing nothing.

If you have a pet that does that, you check up on them. Means something is wrong. Even kids get that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:31 am UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:48 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:On Anniversary of Freddie Gray’s Death, Plainclothes Baltimore Cops Shoot 13-Year-Old Who Was Carrying a Fake Gun

(In addition to being on the anniversary of Freddie Gray's death at the hands of Baltimore cops, this happened days after Cleveland agreed to (have its taxpayers) pay $6M for the murder of Tamir Rice.)

There's something to be said of having settlements come out of the police budget instead of the general funds budget. But then again, if you had the clout to do that, you wouldn't have a police problem in the first place.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:41 am UTC

sardia wrote:Imagine the driver was a pedophile that kicked bunnies, and then the cops did the same thing. Any jury who shares your beliefs about being sympathetic would give the cops a pass. A lot of people have this belief and all it does is give a pass to criminals who victimize anyone who is unsympathetic aka minorities. That's why it's a bad idea and why it's unconstitutional.


This is extremely poorly written. Taken at face value, it would suggest that you think the pedophile should walk away free and clear because the cops violated his rights. Maybe pick up a million $ or so to help him commit crimes more effectively.

I don't like rights violations. There are times when rights violations suppress evidence--perhaps a confession--in which case the accused may walk due to lack of evidence. But a rights violation is not, per se, exoneration...or at least it shouldn't be; and it isn't a drop-in substitute for conviction. Consider the "bunnies" the pedophile "kicked"...do you think that is in their best interests, for the jury to just wink and let the pedophile go do it again?

It isn't only the police that must be accountable for crimes committed. This thread is about the problem we have where the police are not accountable: it is not a bleeding-heart session for miscreant citizens.
In all fairness...


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