Police misbehavior thread

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elasto
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:57 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Shooting random officers is, I agree with Zamfir here, certainly the wrong kind of violence. But some kind of retaliation against abusive cops is necessary if you ever want to change the system in a meaningful way. Violence is the only language bullies understand.

I don't think bullying is the core problem - I think cowardice is. Cops have the mentality to protect themselves at all costs, using violence as a preemptive solution. As such, I think the cop shootings are not merely wrong but counterproductive. It'll reinforce the us-vs-them, this-is-war, bunker mentality.

Nowhere is such cowardice revealed more clearly than when cops refuse to give medical treatment to people they've shot - preferring to keep themselves safe at all costs.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HES » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:59 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I think the cop shootings are not merely wrong but counterproductive.

Undoubtedly.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:02 pm UTC

I don't like to post in this thread, but...
Diadem wrote:Shooting random officers is, I agree with Zamfir here, certainly the wrong kind of violence. But some kind of retaliation against abusive cops is necessary if you ever want to change the system in a meaningful way. Violence is the only language bullies understand.
Be careful how you think about this. This was perhaps inevitable, but it is certainly undesirable. If they can shoot at cops, then they can shoot at anybody. And the bullies all don't wear blue and they may be better armed than the police. We've spent the last 20 or so years training people to kill other people. This just feeds into a downward spiral. And revolution is a nasty way of getting things done, ask the people in Syria or the 629,000 who died in the American Civil War.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:13 pm UTC

HES wrote:
elasto wrote:I think the cop shootings are not merely wrong but counterproductive.

Undoubtedly.


Nothing else has worked. All non violent measures have been tried. The current status quo was unacceptable and needed to be disrupted. This event will certainly cause a disruption. Its hard to know exactly how things will turn out over the next while as a result of this.

But I doubt we will see a spike in police shootings. Rightly or wrongly, there are consequences now.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:24 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Nothing else has worked. All non violent measures have been tried. The current status quo was unacceptable and needed to be disrupted. This event will certainly cause a disruption. Its hard to know exactly how things will turn out over the next while as a result of this.

I disagree. Even if what you say is true - that all non violent measures have been tried and failed - that doesn't mean things can't get worse. The police could become even more paramilitary than they already are.

Any politician looking to demilitarise the police just had one hand tied behind their back with this shooting.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:24 pm UTC

HES wrote:Was he killed by the explosives, or were the explosives used in the operation that killed him? It's not clear from the article, and blowing people up seems a bit beyond the police's remit.



According to NPR this morning, it sounds like he was killed by the explosive set by the police.

"A standoff then ensued, which ended when the suspect was killed just before 3 a.m. local time. Police Chief Brown says the department used a "bomb robot" to place a device "where the suspect was" and detonate it — a move that he said was made to prevent any further risk to police officers."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... now-friday

EDIT: updated info seems to confirm that the bomb killed the suspect.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... ?tid=sm_fb
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:15 pm UTC

The police have used bombs before to kill people they can't bother to be arrested. During some racial protest in apartments they firebombed the buildings because there was too much resistance. Not that it is an excuse, buy there's a precedent.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:28 pm UTC

Here's what I found interesting.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dallas ... or-n605896

Police in Dallas used a robot with an explosive device to kill a suspect involved in a coordinated ambush against officers.

"We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was," Rawlings told reporters. "Other options would have exposed our officers in grave danger."

Peter W. Singer, a technological warfare expert and author of "Wired For War," told NBC News that using mobile robots — or MARCbots (Multi-Function Agile Remote-Controlled) — to detonate explosives was documented during the early days of the Iraq War — but it's not something he has heard of in domestic policing.

"Yes, this is 1st use of robot in this way in policing. Marcbot has been ad hoc used this way by troops in Iraq."


Ladies and Gentlemen, we now have precedent for lethal use of drones in policing. There was already a precedent for explosives. Now there's one for explosives+robots

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:31 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
HES wrote:
elasto wrote:I think the cop shootings are not merely wrong but counterproductive.

Undoubtedly.


Nothing else has worked. All non violent measures have been tried. The current status quo was unacceptable and needed to be disrupted. This event will certainly cause a disruption. Its hard to know exactly how things will turn out over the next while as a result of this.

But I doubt we will see a spike in police shootings. Rightly or wrongly, there are consequences now.

The current status quo *in Dallas*, where the police were making a good-faith (and successful) effort at improvement?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... olved.html

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:53 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:The current status quo *in Dallas*, where the police were making a good-faith (and successful) effort at improvement?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... olved.html
Yeah, it really sucks that for the most part this happened to one of the departments in the US that was very much trying to reduce officer on citizen violence. The shootings are just really misplaced.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mcd001 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:28 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Obviously the actions of the snipers need to be and should be punished. But they are understandable.

gmalivuk wrote:Sure, it's tragic on a personal level for the families and friends of the dead cops, and it's tragic on a national level for the "war on cops" myth it will bolster, but the consistent refusal of cops everywhere to condemn the violence committed by their "brothers in blue" makes it awfully hard for me to feel particularly broken up about the fact of some cops getting killed.

Tyndmyr wrote:It's not *right*. But it's kind of inevitable when the problem doesn't get fixed the right way. If you've ever watched action movies, think back on how many of them star a person who tries over and over again to be peaceable, but keeps getting treated injustly (and often violently), until he goes on a murder rampage. Which we, the audience, cheer, because the previous abuses have justified this reaction.

Diadem wrote:Shooting random officers is, I agree with Zamfir here, certainly the wrong kind of violence. But some kind of retaliation against abusive cops is necessary if you ever want to change the system in a meaningful way. Violence is the only language bullies understand.

I am sickened and disgusted by these remarks.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

Are you equally sickened and disgusted by the fact that police have killed 608 people so far this year?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:42 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Are you equally sickened and disgusted by the fact that police have killed 608 people so far this year?
Probably not all 608 but a good portion of them, yes?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:53 pm UTC

Dominique Hazzard wrote:Last night, we watched in real time as the Dallas Police set up a black man for harm. That was their MINIMUM level of maliciousness. Because they KNEW that the officers were shot by folks with sniper rifles, but they still decided to tweet out a photo of a black man carrying an AR-15, with the caption "This is one of our suspects! Please help us find him!" The tweet and photo are still up on their account.

During a protest ABOUT black men who were killed for Having-Gun-While-Black in open carry states, the police decided to sic a lynch-happy nation on this man and put him in danger for absolutely no reason. His life did not matter enough to them for them to do one iota of research.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:58 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Are you equally sickened and disgusted by the fact that police have killed 608 people so far this year?


How many of them were from the Dallas Police Department?

Unfair generalizations are always unfair. The color of your skin does not determine who you are. And some asshole cop in Ferguson, Missouri does not necessarily reflect upon Dallas's leadership and/or their police response.

And I can say that if the Dallas shooter was number 608 (or 609) then this was a justified killing. The other 607 killings, well, we can discuss those as well. But that number contains both good and bad cases. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your political alignment), the cops of the USA are run by tens of thousands of different organizations. The FBI are a separate police force from NYPD, who are separate from Dallas, who are different than Ferguson cops.

Different hiring practices, different levels of training, different levels of race relations. What DOES seem to be the case is that the Dallas cops were protecting the citizenry as they were protesting in a "Black Lives Matter" rally, so the Dallas cops were doing something commendable when they were killed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mcd001 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:26 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Are you equally sickened and disgusted by the fact that police have killed 608 people so far this year?

No. I am dismayed by this, but I am not disgusted. I am dismayed that police in this country must face an increasingly hostile populace radicalized by increasingly hostile rhetoric from increasingly racist activists and groups (yes, this includes you, BLM). The end result of this constant drum beat of anti-police rhetoric is entirely predictable. The police will withdraw from those places where they aren't wanted and thugs and criminals will fill the vacuum. There is even a name for this: the Ferguson Effect.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:59 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:There is even a name for this: the Ferguson Effect.
There are names for many fictional things: dragons, Narnia, Ewoks, etc.

Police have gotten safer over the years, yet they've killed more and more people. And unarmed black people are 3-4 times more likely to be killed by police than unarmed white people.

Police wouldn't have to deal with such a hostile populace if they stopped murdering people. Police kill more people in this country than the total murder rate in multiple other countries.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:02 pm UTC

It would be interesting to find out the numbers of police killed (or injured) in routine traffic stops (ever) vs the number that they've killed (injured too).

And then to compare the numbers of people killed in routine traffic stops by police in the US vs other countries.

Somehow I think the data would be hard to find.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:38 pm UTC

Probably very hard, yes.

Wikipedia does have people killed by US police by year though:
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2016 (listed: 65)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2015 (listed: 391)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2014 (listed: 627)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2013 (listed: 338)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2012 (listed: 602)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2011 (listed: 166)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2010 (listed: 288)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, 2009 (listed: 64)
List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States prior to 2009 (listed: 223)

2009: Obama effect?

British list for comparison

They've also got an incomplete list of officers killed in the line of duty:
According to the FBI, from 1980–2014, an average of 64 law enforcement officers have been feloniously killed per year. Those killed in accidents in the line of duty are not included in that number.[1]

2010
161 law enforcement officers were killed in 2010. The average from 1990-2010 was 164 per year.[2]

2011
The FBI reported that in 2011, "72 law enforcement officers from around the nation were killed in the line of duty, while another 53 officers died in accidents while performing their duties."[3] NBC News reported 165 dead.[4]

2012
For 2012, the FBI records 49 deaths in the line of duty.[5] The FBI Fund counted 49 federal, state and local officers to have been killed in 2012.

2013
The Officer Down Memorial Page reports 114 deaths in the line of duty.[6] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund counted 102 federal, state and local officers to have been killed in 2012.[7] The official count from the FBI is that 27 law enforcement officers were 'feloniously' killed in the line of duty in 2013 (the lowest in a 35-year period 1980-2014), and an additional 49 died in accidents (total: 76).[1][8]

2014
The Officer Down Memorial Page reports 133 deaths in the line of duty.[9] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund counted 126 federal, state, local, tribal and territorial officers killed.[10] The preliminary count from the FBI is that 51 law enforcement officers were 'feloniously' killed in the line of duty in 2014, and an additional 44 died in accidents (total: 95).[8]

2015
The Officer Down Memorial Page reports 129 deaths in the line of duty.[11] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund count for federal, state, local, tribal and territorial officers killed has not yet been released.

2016
The Officer Down Memorial Page reports 58 deaths in the line of duty as of July 7.[12] The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund count for federal, state, local, tribal and territorial officers killed will not be released until 2017.


British list for comparison

Out of 800,000 or so sworn officers and a population of 300,000,000 ... the police have the higher attrition rate and it's not a patch on the annual death toll on the roads, either way.

If you really want a scary statistic for comparison, 64 out of 800,000 is 8 per 100,000, notably higher than the US average violent death rate of 5.56 per 100,000 per year, and Lesotho's annual HIV death toll is 761.77 per 100,000 per year.

Geneva, Switzerland: population 188,634 (2012)
1.325 homicides by gunshot per 100,000 per year. Swiss average: 0.57 violent deaths per 100,000 per year. Cities are scary places.



Geneva's obviously got a higher "gun homicide" rate than Switzerland, and the USA on average has ... 2.64 times the "gun homicide" rate that Geneva has? I have no idea whether the police are even included in that rate, but damn, somebody's doing something wrong.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mcd001 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:45 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:mcd001 wrote:
There is even a name for this: the Ferguson Effect.

There are names for many fictional things: dragons, Narnia, Ewoks, etc.

Yes. Unfortunately, the Ferguson Effect is not among them. Deny it all you want, but it IS real:

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482123552 ... study-says

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ct/412351/

http://nypost.com/2016/05/24/the-fergus ... rime-wave/

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... d-thoughts

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-new-nat ... 1432938425

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:14 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:mcd001 wrote:
There is even a name for this: the Ferguson Effect.

There are names for many fictional things: dragons, Narnia, Ewoks, etc.

Yes. Unfortunately, the Ferguson Effect is not among them. Deny it all you want, but it IS real:

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482123552 ... study-says

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ct/412351/

http://nypost.com/2016/05/24/the-fergus ... rime-wave/

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... d-thoughts

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-new-nat ... 1432938425

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the ... -ferguson/
Isn't it weird that despite the effect, the police are still killing folks at the same rate as before?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:31 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Geneva's obviously got a higher "gun homicide" rate than Switzerland, and the USA on average has ... 2.64 times the "gun homicide" rate that Geneva has? I have no idea whether the police are even included in that rate, but damn, somebody's doing something wrong.


Isn't that common knowledge? Michael Moore made a movie on that topic. People in the US kill each other, several times as much as in any other democracy.

This thread is mostly about US police misbehavior, because in most other countries cops hurt people with a baton instead of killing them with a gun.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:35 pm UTC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... round.html
Cops shoot another guy who was on the ground. He died in surgery later.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:39 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:Yes. Unfortunately, the Ferguson Effect is not among them. Deny it all you want, but it IS real
The primary data supporting the claim is murder rates in large cities, which were higher on average in 2015 than in 2014 or 2013, but pretty on-par with the average in 2012.

From the recent DOJ study:
Researchers would have been in a better position to begin addressing the 2015 homicide rise, with evidence rather than speculation, if timely crime data had been available as the increase was occurring. We would have known whether the homicide rise was confined to large cities, whether other crimes were also increasing, and whether arrest rates were falling. The debate over the homicide increase would have been better informed. Technical impediments to the monthly release of crime data no longer exist. A large and worrisome increase in homicide should be the catalyst to finally bring the nation’s crime monitoring system into the 21st century.


So, the requisite data weren't actually available at the time the study was written. And that's what you're basing your claim on?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:03 am UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/scien ... iness&_r=0
Wait, why are the cops using robots with bombs on them? That can't be legal. When did Congress authorized this?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mcd001 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:05 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:So, the requisite data [on Ferguson effect] weren't actually available at the time the study was written. And that's what you're basing your claim on?

Not just the statistics, which (unsurprisingly) you were able to find a competing study with a contradicting conclusion. That seems to be the norm for *any* controversial topic with associated statistical data--there is statistical 'evidence' to support whatever conclusion you want. The cynic in me takes such evidence with a large dose of salt, especially when it flies in the face of human nature. Cops are human, after all. I have heard interviews on the radio and read accounts of police officers explicitly stating that they have changed the way they do their jobs in the aftermath of Ferguson and similar events.

And really, on a thread that's all about how incompetent and corrupt police are, you're going to argue that they will continue to fully engage in police work for a resentful citizenry in unappreciative neighborhoods, undeterred by protests and hateful rhetoric? That sounds nothing like the vicious, bullying, psychopathic cowards I read about on this forum.

Incidentally, there also seems to be a criminal component to the Ferguson effect, such that criminals become more emboldened at the same time the police pull back. (I learned about *that* reading the NIJ study you linked to.)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:14 am UTC

mcd001 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:So, the requisite data [on Ferguson effect] weren't actually available at the time the study was written. And that's what you're basing your claim on?


Not just the statistics, which (unsurprisingly) you were able to find a competing study with a contradicting conclusion. That seems to be the norm for *any* controversial topic with associated statistical data--there is statistical 'evidence' to support whatever conclusion you want. The cynic in me takes such evidence with a large dose of salt, especially when it flies in the face of human nature. Cops are human, after all. I have heard interviews on the radio and read accounts of police officers explicitly stating that they have changed the way they do their jobs in the aftermath of Ferguson and similar events.

And really, on a thread that's all about how incompetent and corrupt police are, you're going to argue that they will continue to fully engage in police work for a resentful citizenry in unappreciative neighborhoods, undeterred by protests and hateful rhetoric? That sounds nothing like the vicious, bullying, psychopathic cowards I read about on this forum.


If they don't want to do their jobs, then fire them and replace them with people who do. It's the American way.

The choice is not between police who are needlessly violent or no police at all.

Unrelated, but this article makes the pitch that a huge part of the problem is that the primary purpose of police many communities isn't to do actual police work, but to generate revenue for the city/county/whatever through levying fines. This type of incentive system tends to disproportionately hurt the poor and minorities, as well as create conflict between citizens and police, since the latter are looking for reasons to charge you in order to meet their quotas. Source is Mother Jones, so YMMV on some of the details, but in principle this does seem like a really terrible way to do things.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:40 am UTC

mcd001 wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Obviously the actions of the snipers need to be and should be punished. But they are understandable.

I am sickened and disgusted by these remarks.


If you cannot understand their grievances, or why they are lashing out, then the failing I would say is in you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:58 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
mcd001 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:So, the requisite data [on Ferguson effect] weren't actually available at the time the study was written. And that's what you're basing your claim on?

Not just the statistics, which (unsurprisingly) you were able to find a competing study with a contradicting conclusion. That seems to be the norm for *any* controversial topic with associated statistical data--there is statistical 'evidence' to support whatever conclusion you want. The cynic in me takes such evidence with a large dose of salt, especially when it flies in the face of human nature. Cops are human, after all. I have heard interviews on the radio and read accounts of police officers explicitly stating that they have changed the way they do their jobs in the aftermath of Ferguson and similar events.
And really, on a thread that's all about how incompetent and corrupt police are, you're going to argue that they will continue to fully engage in police work for a resentful citizenry in unappreciative neighborhoods, undeterred by protests and hateful rhetoric? That sounds nothing like the vicious, bullying, psychopathic cowards I read about on this forum.

If they don't want to do their jobs, then fire them and replace them with people who do. It's the American way.
The choice is not between police who are needlessly violent or no police at all.
Unrelated, but this article makes the pitch that a huge part of the problem is that the primary purpose of police many communities isn't to do actual police work, but to generate revenue for the city/county/whatever through levying fines. This type of incentive system tends to disproportionately hurt the poor and minorities, as well as create conflict between citizens and police, since the latter are looking for reasons to charge you in order to meet their quotas. Source is Mother Jones, so YMMV on some of the details, but in principle this does seem like a really terrible way to do things.

We can't fire the police, they're under the protections of the unions. Where's the Republicans when you need them? Oh that's right, Republicans only bust unions that don't vote for them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:25 am UTC

I have several conflicting thoughts about the violence.

First and foremost, violence of this type forecloses non-violent options. I don't think those were exhausted before by any means. But now look: #BlackLivesMatter discredited, to many minds. Police violence justified to many minds. Has or has not this event damaged the chances of political resolution? Given the circumstances and the political damage, I'm going out on a limb and saying sniping these police officers was unconscionable. (More on unconscionable later.)

Second is an open comment directed to those who refuse to recognize the circumstances under which blacks live, which are oppressive. Enthusiastic supporters of the Second Amendment endlessly remind us that its purpose is to ensure the people can "overthrow oppression." This is what overthrow of oppression looks like: it looks like murder...to the oppressors. This is how the "Minutemen" we're so proud of looked to the British. Think about that.

Next, a comment on tragedy. The death of Alton Sterling was a tragedy. The death of Philando Castile was a tragedy. The deaths of five officers today was...five tragedies. These aren't separable by degree. It isn't any more acceptable to shoot "that thug" than it was to shoot these officers; and a big part of the problem is those who think there is a difference. Not anyone in particular, but quite a few people in general...starting with those who immediately set out to prove every dead black man was "a thug" and, therefore, his death was "a service" not a tragedy.

Bombing of the suspect. Yeah, the Philadelphia police did that once upon a time, and it was a PR disaster. From the Wikipedia article on MOVE, 1985 Bombing:

The MOVE Commission issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."

Well we'll see, won't we? But I kind of think this bombing was unconscionable, too. Bombs tend to be indiscriminate killers.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:36 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
The MOVE Commission issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."

Well we'll see, won't we? But I kind of think this bombing was unconscionable, too. Bombs tend to be indiscriminate killers.


Its worth noting that the size of the 2 bombs dropped were extremely small, one pound. They were designed to start a fire (I think?) and they did. It wasn't the bombs that destroyed all those houses but the fires they caused, which the fire department chose not to put out. This isn't a commentary at all on the actions, just some information.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:37 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:So, the requisite data [on Ferguson effect] weren't actually available at the time the study was written. And that's what you're basing your claim on?

Not just the statistics, which (unsurprisingly) you were able to find a competing study with a contradicting conclusion. That seems to be the norm for *any* controversial topic with associated statistical data--there is statistical 'evidence' to support whatever conclusion you want. The cynic in me takes such evidence with a large dose of salt, especially when it flies in the face of human nature.

I did not find a competing study. I found the very DOJ study your articles were based on.

It's not my fault your secondary sources misrepresented the primary sources they were supposed to be reporting on.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:26 pm UTC

sardia wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/science/dallas-bomb-robot.html?ref=business&_r=0
Wait, why are the cops using robots with bombs on them? That can't be legal. When did Congress authorized this?

It's a bomb disposal robot with a bomb disposal charge. Using it on a person is new, but also not uniquely lethal in contrast to, say, a gun. Apparently, bomb disposal robots carrying mines instead have been used by the US military, and the robots themselves are of the same model, but the bomb-disposal bomb charge would be much less destructive. The possibility of collateral damage in the otherwise empty parking garage would be minimal, presumably less than in a scenario where the charge was used to set off a bomb in an evacuated parking garage, since the suspect was not himself an explosive device. Whether police expected the explosion to actually kill him isn't clear.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:29 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
sardia wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/science/dallas-bomb-robot.html?ref=business&_r=0
Wait, why are the cops using robots with bombs on them? That can't be legal. When did Congress authorized this?

It's a bomb disposal robot with a bomb disposal charge. Using it on a person is new, but also not uniquely lethal in contrast to, say, a gun. Apparently, bomb disposal robots carrying mines instead have been used by the US military, and the robots themselves are of the same model, but the bomb-disposal bomb charge would be much less destructive. The possibility of collateral damage in the otherwise empty parking garage would be minimal, presumably less than in a scenario where the charge was used to set off a bomb in an evacuated parking garage, since the suspect was not himself an explosive device. Whether police expected the explosion to actually kill him isn't clear.

We also have tanks and rpgs, but we don't use them on civilians*. The chance of collateral damage there is the same, but we don't use them. You're not concerned at all that the police are using bombs?

*Technically there's lots of armored vehicles going around from surplus army stuff, but people just jerk off in them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:49 pm UTC

sardia wrote:We also have tanks and rpgs, but we don't use them on civilians*. The chance of collateral damage there is the same, but we don't use them. You're not concerned at all that the police are using bombs?



News seems to indicate they tried negotiating for hours after which he stopped negotiating and began firing at the cops again. Presumably they couldn't get their own sniper in any type of vantage position so they used another method to kill him. I imagine they deemed there was no collateral damage risk and used the explosive charge. I don't really see a problem with this vs say using a flash bang to stun him and then riddle him full of bullets.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:40 pm UTC

sardia wrote:We also have tanks and rpgs, but we don't use them on civilians*. The chance of collateral damage there is the same, but we don't use them. You're not concerned at all that the police are using bombs?

I'm not unconcerned. The militarization of US police forces is definitely a concern. I'm also not outraged, or making comparisons to using RPGs or firebombing residences.

I'm not sure what you mean the risk of the collateral damage that police forces would entail by using a tank or RPG is "the same" as. It's presumably similar to the risk of collateral damage entailed in using those things in combat, which is singificantly higher than anything we're talking about here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:58 pm UTC

Militarization of police is a concern, but at most a secondary one. The primary concern when the police are blowing up people should be that they are essentially committing extrajudicial assassinations.

They guy may have been obviously guilty, but that's still up to the a judge (or jury I guess, in the US case) to decide. The job of the police is to arrest suspects, not to kill them. And sure, that is not always possible. But it often seems that the US police isn't even trying, and simply prefers executing suspects over arresting them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:14 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Militarization of police is a concern, but at most a secondary one. The primary concern when the police are blowing up people should be that they are essentially committing extrajudicial assassinations.

They guy may have been obviously guilty, but that's still up to the a judge (or jury I guess, in the US case) to decide. The job of the police is to arrest suspects, not to kill them. And sure, that is not always possible. But it often seems that the US police isn't even trying, and simply prefers executing suspects over arresting them.

As long as we're clear that that has nothing to do with whether a gun or an explosive is used and aren't just getting distracted by novelty, sure.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:02 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Its worth noting that the size of the 2 bombs dropped were extremely small, one pound. They were designed to start a fire (I think?) and they did. It wasn't the bombs that destroyed all those houses but the fires they caused, which the fire department chose not to put out. This isn't a commentary at all on the actions, just some information.


Yes, the bombs dropped on MOVE were small. They were ultimately still ruled unconscionable.

Also, a side note: The firemen were stood aside because the police were afraid MOVE would shoot at them...well, at least they stood aside until the fire was good and out of control.

But the loss of all the houses was a major part of the political outrage: there were accusations that the city deliberately withheld fire control--in fact that they used the bombs in the first place--as an ill-conceived spur-of-the-moment "urban renewal" effort. That conclusion doesn't have anything to do with reality, I think, but politics isn't about logic or reality.

Talking now about Dallas: I get that from a logical standpoint, it didn't make much difference whether bomb or gun. Dead is dead. But then there's the political conclusions that will be drawn. I suspect that this bombing is going to get translated, by some groups, as a message: "You'd better all be good little n***rs blacks or we're going to bomb you back to the stone age." Just how do you think that message would play, politically?

If that's the sense, it will play as the hob-nailed boot of oppression.

So time will tell, but I suspect the endgame conclusion is going to be: unconscionable.
In all fairness...


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