Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:41 am UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Given all of that, for people to continue to tar and feather him seems counterproductive toward the goal of having a good faith discussion of the issue.
Tar and feather? Like the Tulsa Outrage?

But with 140 pages of thread history that I'm not going to read, maybe he's simply run out of strikes, in which case I'll take your word for it and leave it to you.
http://forums.xkcd.com/search.php?f=9&t=84861&author=jewish_scientist

jewish_scientist wrote:Just because every time you have interacted with the cops they were mean does not mean that all cops are mean. Maybe you should take a statistics class before condemning a million people.
jewish_scientist wrote:I think people are being really unfair to the cops by generalizing these incidents of corruption. The problem is that someone doing their job poorly, such as a cop shooting an armed suspect, is news and a person doing their job correctly, such as a cop shooting an armed suspect, is not. I remember a while ago that the FBI investigated someone, did not find sufficient reason to continue the investigation, and stopped investigating; when this person actually became a terrorist and killed many people, the FBI was heavily criticized for stopping the investigation. However, the dozens of times investigations are stopped and people end up being innocent are never reported and investigations resulting in arrests much less publicized. It's Survivor Bias in reverse.
emphasis mine.

I think it's rather clear that jewish_scientist believes in some manner of "nuanced approach" towards cop apologism, er, the problem with police behavior in the US (and elsewhere, but particularly there). I think it's bullshit. I'll never tire of drawing the comparison with the actual murder that happened, because it (the murders) happens a lot. And nobody said, "jewish_scientist should be banned", "j_s is racist", "j_s is a cop apologist" (except me), or "j_s sympathizes with cops more than the lives of black people".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:23 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Nearly 1000 people were killed by police last year. 68 were unarmed. So 7% of the time a police officer decides to shoot someone to death, that person is unarmed...

Given the number of police who plant weapons on people they’ve shot as well as the utter lack of any sort of consistent reporting - or any reporting - I trust those numbers about as much as I trust homeopathic medicine.

That is, not at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:35 am UTC

yeah also the cops are extremely creative about what counts as being armed once they have assaulted/killed someone. i know multiple people who were beaten or shot by cops while unarmed in any practical sense of the word (empty handed, not holding any weapon) who after the fact were listed as armed because on a later search the police found things like multitools/small folding utility knives on them.

so y'know "armed" with a two inch knife folded in their backpack that the police never saw or knew about until after the person was bloody in handcuffs but on paper!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:20 pm UTC

Hey now, unlike homeopathic medicine, those numbers do contain some truth. 7% really were unarmed. And another 20% were also unarmed but a knife mysteriously appeared. Or Tamir Rice, who had a toy gun. That was in his pants and not drawn. In a state with open carry laws such that even if it was real it would have been legal. Dafuq?

But to me, even if that 7% was true with no framings or so forth, that's still obscenely high.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

Yeah in 7% of cases the victims were so obviously unarmed that even the cops were forced to admit it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm UTC

San Diego County deputy is arrested on suspicion of lewd acts on a child, a year and a half after the initial accusation.

San Diego County officials said Knight was relieved of his peace officer powers and placed on leave.

Knight, who worked as a jailer, had come under scrutiny in 2014 when he was suspended for using an inappropriate neck hold to force a handcuffed jail inmate to the floor.

At the time, department officials said they had learned about the neck-restraint incident after Knight told another deputy about it. They placed him on indefinite suspension and accused him of using improper force and failing to file a report.

He appealed the suspension to the county Civil Service Commission, which determined it was unwarranted and ordered he be reinstated and receive back pay with interest.

[San Diego County Sheriff Bill] Gore sued the commission, seeking to have the decision overturned, but a Superior Court judge upheld the commission's decision.


About a month ago, here's what happened with San Diego County Sheriff's Deputy Richard Fischer:

Sheriff's deputy arraigned on 14 charges related to sexual misconduct allegations, pleads not guilty

In all, Fischer was charged with one count of sexual battery and 12 counts of assault and battery by an officer and one count of false imprisonment. The charges could put him in prison for up to 14 years.

...

Fischer was being accused of pushing women’s hands onto his genitals and groping women’s breasts.

Many of the women also reported this disquieting behavior: Fischer made implied threats, reminding them that he knew where they lived and alerting them that he would be checking up on them.


He's free on $100,000 bail.

His preliminary hearing is set for May 2. The primary election for Sheriff and District Attorney is June 5. Hmmm.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:36 am UTC

In all, Fischer was charged with one count of sexual battery and 12 counts of assault and battery by an officer and one count of false imprisonment. The charges could put him in prison for up to 14 years.


Odd coincidence, 14 years for 14 crimes. Oh wait, I get it: wobblers, misdemeanors, up to one year each. Concurrent no doubt, if he gets any time at all.

Wobblers are most likely to result in a misdemeanor conviction if the facts show that the defendant’s behavior was not particularly egregious or if the defendant does not have a serious criminal record. Grand theft auto is an example of a crime that may be tried and punished as a misdemeanor or a felony.


I mean, I think we can pretty much take it as given that they don't regard this as an egregious crime. Anyone want to take the other end of a bet that he gets no more than fourteen $100 fines?

Oh and don't forget the best part. If he's convicted of misdemeanors, after he overcomes the terrible burden of the sentence, he gets to go on being a cop
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:20 am UTC


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:11 am UTC

I hope every color and every gender joins in.

If he had held his phone over his head,
they would have accused him of using it as a weapon.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:30 pm UTC

Well to be fair, the scariest thing a crooked cop has to face is a recording device...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby wumpus » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Nearly 1000 people were killed by police last year. 68 were unarmed. So 7% of the time a police officer decides to shoot someone to death, that person is unarmed...

Given the number of police who plant weapons on people they’ve shot as well as the utter lack of any sort of consistent reporting - or any reporting - I trust those numbers about as much as I trust homeopathic medicine.

That is, not at all.


Generally speaking, the only reason a cop would use a drop gun if it was due to old habits. The current "license to kill" simply doesn't require any credible threat before a cop unleashes a wall of lead at a suspect. Granted, there have been high visibility cases where cops have removed "something" from their vehicle before discovering a gun in a the car.

There has also been a reasonably high profile shooting where the police PR department claimed it was a "good kill" because the [black] suspect had a gun in the trunk of the car (or equally unreachable).

Using a drop gun in the age of cell phones would show a cop dumb enough to be a cop. While I still expect that the repercussions would be little more than getting a new job in a worse force, the repercussions of executing unarmed criminals are effectively zero in the USA (there's always the danger of being made an example if you were caught using a drop gun).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:41 am UTC

Oh, drop guns are definitely still a thing.

https://www.theroot.com/baltimore-cops-kept-toy-guns-to-plant-just-in-case-they-1822546984

Seriously, living next to Baltimore gives me an unending stream of such articles. It's kind of insane. The newspaper(http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/investigations/bs-md-ci-gun-arrests-drop-20171107-story.html), on the other hand, is now complaining that gun arrests are down since they took the corrupt cops off the job...no shit, you guys. They literally made up evidence. Of COURSE they got lots of arrests. They're not good arrests. It's not some movie "slightly bent the rules to get results" crap, they're straight up framing people, stealing shit for their own gain, etc.

Yeah, they probably can mostly get away with shooting unarmed people. But they're not above framing you just to screw you over.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:33 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You do realize that shooting in video games is much different than shooting a real gun? Shooting a person and hitting is hard, aiming is much tougher than it looks, people don't do you the courtesy of holding still, and so forth. Even in close quarters, most of the shots missing is normal in real life.
Well, er, yeah (and they still write to me around this time every year to make sure they know where to find me in case they need to remind me).

I didn't say "if he misses," though. I specified if the cop has no idea where the bullet went.

To take video-game examples, if I shoot at those two infected standing around unaware of our presence in this image:

Image

Any bullet that misses is going into the trees and the causeway beyond them. If it hits anyone else, it's hitting another infected, which is fine.

Problem is that some cops seem to be applying that last bit to shooting in urban areas. They're not thinking "infected" but they're thinking something bad.

In this case:

Image

... if *I* take the shot and miss, I'm shooting into the building. Will that building stop a 5.56 from getting in and hurting someone inside? Am I sure? Francis to my left, though, could take the shot with his bigger rifle and have nothing behind that target but concrete barriers, which stand a pretty good chance of stopping even that 7.62x51. If Zoey loops round behind Francis to get to his left, she'll have a better angle than that with her 5.56, so if that was someone we needed to shoot, that would be the way to do it. Actually, that's someone we need to *not* shoot.

If I take *this* shot, where's the bullet going?

Image

Through that ugly little freak, sure, but then where? See that city behind him? THAT is the problem. At the moment, a cop fires a lot of shots, there's a distant "FOOP!" and up comes the text saying Sergeant Johnson killed a Boomer. They SHOULD be thinking more as if they're here:

Image

That's another of those things I really prefer to leave well alone. One stray bullet through that door and she is likely to change his tune. Unarmed, unarmoured citizenry in poor neighbourhoods don't get to do that. They rely on the justice system to chance his tune for them. It's not doing so.

So, next time a cop fires ten rounds in an area with 2,934 people/km2, we ought to be asking for an account of where those 10 bullets went.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:45 pm UTC

Dude...

:|
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:55 pm UTC

Hypothetical. What happens if we were to require every cop to carry a flashbang? Would there be fewer injuries or more? Cops making a no knock raid, and bang every room befire moving in. Owner doesn't get the chance to be a "threat to my fellow officers lives". But every person in the house has tinnitus, and if the flashbang fell into a crib...

What about rubber bullets? Can handguns be equipped with those or only rifles? They aren't safe, get shot in the eye and it will blind you permanently if not damage your brain, and if there's less lethal weapons the cops may use them more frequently.

If every department is going to have a SWAT team, what about having all beat cops be armed only with less l lethal equipment such as stun guns and pepper spray and so on?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Dude...

:|


Yeah, yeah, I know, the heels are ridiculous. I replaced that mod with the SAS one anyway.

What? You'd have preferred stills from bodycam footage of a real police shooting?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:51 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
Liri wrote:Dude...

:|


Yeah, yeah, I know, the heels are ridiculous. I replaced that mod with the SAS one anyway.

What? You'd have preferred stills from bodycam footage of a real police shooting?


I think it goes back to the "The police shouldn't be shooting in the first place." point made earlier in response to Jewish_Scientist's critique of their shooting technique.

Personally I'm of the opinion that both are true. Police should be treating force of any kind (lethal or less-than-lethal) as a last resort, not as a panic response. When they do use lethal force (because the nature of the job is unfortunate there is occasion where it is necessary) it should be used responsibly, not just blazing wildly dumping entire magazines of ammo until the imagined threat dissipates.

Ironically, for all the concerns about the "Militarization of the Police", I'm somewhat of the opinion think military-styled training and discipline might actually be called for in many police departments to fix both these issues (a tendency to panic and the inability to handle firearms under stress per the most basic safety rules). Many municipalities could benefit from a more rigorous training regimen including SESAMS situation training (primarily to get the panic response under control, but also to practice deescalation techniques while under stress), as well as significant book-and-classroom coursework.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Hypothetical. What happens if we were to require every cop to carry a flashbang? Would there be fewer injuries or more? Cops making a no knock raid, and bang every room befire moving in. Owner doesn't get the chance to be a "threat to my fellow officers lives". But every person in the house has tinnitus, and if the flashbang fell into a crib...

What about rubber bullets? Can handguns be equipped with those or only rifles? They aren't safe, get shot in the eye and it will blind you permanently if not damage your brain, and if there's less lethal weapons the cops may use them more frequently.

Devices that achieve the same tactical effect of a flashbang or rubber bullets also carry greater risks; therefore flashbangs and bullets made from alternative materials are superior weapons due to the principle that the least amount of damage possible should be done to a target. That being said, maybe we should give flashbangs to only SWAT teams a.k.a. the people who are actually trained to use them.

Oh, and to answer your questions; the weapons effect implies that situations will not escalate as often (assuming that officers armed with a flashbang are more likely to use it than a gun), this is some complicated statistics because an increase in flashbang use could correlate to a decrease in other tactical weapon use, they cause much less injury than full metal jacket and hollow point*, and yes.


If every department is going to have a SWAT team, what about having all beat cops be armed only with less l lethal equipment such as stun guns and pepper spray and so on?

This is a very reasonable measure that I would support if it was only implemented in low-crime areas. By low-crime I am referring to areas where beat cops are highly unlikely to encounter an armed and aggressive assailant. In other words, we should treat the 5 police officers in the middle of Nowhere, Nebraska differently than the 1,590 officers in Detroit.


*Rubber bullets and other bullets made from alternative materials should not be used as a form of crowd control.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Hypothetical. What happens if we were to require every cop to carry a flashbang? Would there be fewer injuries or more? Cops making a no knock raid, and bang every room befire moving in. Owner doesn't get the chance to be a "threat to my fellow officers lives". But every person in the house has tinnitus, and if the flashbang fell into a crib...

What about rubber bullets? Can handguns be equipped with those or only rifles? They aren't safe, get shot in the eye and it will blind you permanently if not damage your brain, and if there's less lethal weapons the cops may use them more frequently.

If every department is going to have a SWAT team, what about having all beat cops be armed only with less l lethal equipment such as stun guns and pepper spray and so on?


I think you'd have more incidents with less lethal weapons. You'd have them used as compliance tools rather than a direct replacement for lethal force.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:45 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Hypothetical. What happens if we were to require every cop to carry a flashbang? Would there be fewer injuries or more? Cops making a no knock raid, and bang every room befire moving in. Owner doesn't get the chance to be a "threat to my fellow officers lives". But every person in the house has tinnitus, and if the flashbang fell into a crib...

What about rubber bullets? Can handguns be equipped with those or only rifles? They aren't safe, get shot in the eye and it will blind you permanently if not damage your brain, and if there's less lethal weapons the cops may use them more frequently.

If every department is going to have a SWAT team, what about having all beat cops be armed only with less l lethal equipment such as stun guns and pepper spray and so on?


I think you'd have more incidents with less lethal weapons. You'd have them used as compliance tools rather than a direct replacement for lethal force.


The thing is many current police are showing disappointing levels of competency with standard service weapons, handing out flashbangs without proper training is likely to show that they may be "Less than Lethal" but they're far from "Harmless" and you're likely to have an increased incidence of not just 'suspects' but also bystanders being injured or killed. It's still an explosive charge in that canister, and it's an Area of Effect weapon. The officer that doesn't have the trigger discipline to not empty an entire magazine might throw two or three FBs "just to make sure", and that's not counting his partner doing the same thing at the same time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:06 am UTC

Dauric wrote:Personally I'm of the opinion that both are true. Police should be treating force of any kind (lethal or less-than-lethal) as a last resort, not as a panic response. When they do use lethal force (because the nature of the job is unfortunate there is occasion where it is necessary) it should be used responsibly, not just blazing wildly dumping entire magazines of ammo until the imagined threat dissipates.

Ironically, for all the concerns about the "Militarization of the Police", I'm somewhat of the opinion think military-styled training and discipline might actually be called for in many police departments to fix both these issues (a tendency to panic and the inability to handle firearms under stress per the most basic safety rules). Many municipalities could benefit from a more rigorous training regimen including SESAMS situation training (primarily to get the panic response under control, but also to practice deescalation techniques while under stress), as well as significant book-and-classroom coursework.


Oddly enough, things like "be careful about what's behind your target" are standard things taught in the civilian world. It was certainly taught to me at 12(customary age of training in MN). It's not really a big deal, and every year, millions of hunters go out into the woods, shoot at deer, and generally manage to avoid shooting any bystanders at all. It isn't exactly apples to apples with police shootings, but the sheer numbers involved are staggering.

A big difference is that police often do shoot until the magazine pings empty, but this isn't really standard anywhere else. It's literally just a police thing. It's not a military thing, it's not a civilian thing. Even when civilians use guns in self defense, they almost invariably stop shooting when the person goes down. Go look up the most recent stories for your area. They fire, at most, a handful of rounds.

Police appear to be MORE panicky than the average civilian. Perhaps it's contagious fire. Cop next to me fire, so I fire too. Everyone pulls the trigger until empty. Wild overkill.

Panic alone doesn't explain it, even. Give a bunch of police batons, and you'll end up with instances of six police beating the shit out of one dude who is definitely unable to pose a threat.

This doesn't seem to be an average person issue. Average people don't roam in packs shooting or beating the shit out of people. It's a gang violence issue.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:43 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I keep suggesting it, but it bears repeating. If a cop shoots someone, justified or not, automatic loss of 1 week's pay for the entire department. "God dammit Steve, why'd you have to go and shoot that ******? Don't give me any of that 'I felt in danger of my fellow officers lives' crap, I'm already living paycheck to paycheck, asshole! You are paying my cable bill this month, one way or the other!"
The more I think about it, the better I like it.

If a firearm is discharged and hits a person, Everyone! loses a weeks pay.
The men and women in Blue will start thinking of ways to take 'them' in without holes in 'them'.

We have some very creepy, fucked-up behavior from Cops without use of Guns.

Women are at high risk once inside a cage.
Our black men are not making it that far.

It's Wrong!
We all know it is.

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Flattering as it may be, Black Men are Not dangerous.
Spoiler:
Hispanic Men are Not sexual assaulters, either.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:01 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Police appear to be MORE panicky than the average civilian. Perhaps it's contagious fire. Cop next to me fire, so I fire too. Everyone pulls the trigger until empty. Wild overkill.

Panic alone doesn't explain it, even. Give a bunch of police batons, and you'll end up with instances of six police beating the shit out of one dude who is definitely unable to pose a threat.

This doesn't seem to be an average person issue. Average people don't roam in packs shooting or beating the shit out of people. It's a gang violence issue.


I think part of it (and this is from conversations I've had with an ex-police officer friend of mine) is that they're constantly exposed to the worst of humanity, which creates and reinforces the "everybody's guilty of something" mentality. Being immersed in social interactions with criminals skews their perception of people in general, so that even though the vast majority of people are (mostly) law abiding and (relatively) good the police officer is constantly looking for the threat.

More police community outreach would probably help, "cops walking the beat" interacting with the community on a daily basis rather than holing up in the fortress/police precinct waiting for 911 calls or driving through in their cars without meaningful interaction. Problem being the suspicion between police and the communities they work in runs pretty deep both ways at this point, I'm not sure how to get from "here" to "there".
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:24 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Police appear to be MORE panicky than the average civilian. Perhaps it's contagious fire. Cop next to me fire, so I fire too. Everyone pulls the trigger until empty. Wild overkill.

Panic alone doesn't explain it, even. Give a bunch of police batons, and you'll end up with instances of six police beating the shit out of one dude who is definitely unable to pose a threat.

This doesn't seem to be an average person issue. Average people don't roam in packs shooting or beating the shit out of people. It's a gang violence issue.


I think part of it (and this is from conversations I've had with an ex-police officer friend of mine) is that they're constantly exposed to the worst of humanity, which creates and reinforces the "everybody's guilty of something" mentality. Being immersed in social interactions with criminals skews their perception of people in general, so that even though the vast majority of people are (mostly) law abiding and (relatively) good the police officer is constantly looking for the threat.

More police community outreach would probably help, "cops walking the beat" interacting with the community on a daily basis rather than holing up in the fortress/police precinct waiting for 911 calls or driving through in their cars without meaningful interaction. Problem being the suspicion between police and the communities they work in runs pretty deep both ways at this point, I'm not sure how to get from "here" to "there".

The people who claim that are often police shills/unions. Is there any hard data behind the hard life of out of shape donut munchers?*

*Ad hominin not withstanding

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:03 pm UTC

There's also the fact that other professions who similarly see some of the worst of the worst don't go around shooting a thousand people a year.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

But those others do have high rates of burn out and suicide too. Give them guns, and I guarantee your CPS workers will turn into a death squad.

Ok, idea for a movie. A CPS agent and an IRS tax officer are married, and they both snap. Directed by Quentin Tarantino.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:44 pm UTC

It is supremely easy to get guns in this country - if someone is interested in shooting someone else, the fact their job doesn't give them a gun wouldn't stop them. Also. you don't see firefighters going around axing people but they also have very high suicide in the workplace rates.

Besides, if that's the problem, the solution is easy - take all the cops' guns, then offer them all mandatory mental health support.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Also. you don't see firefighters going around axing people but they also have very high suicide in the workplace rates.

Firefighters typically aren't asked to deal with other people who intend to inflict harm. It's not just the stress-in-abstract, but the specific source of the stress: other human beings who intend to harm yet another human being.

If you're about to point out the irony of police harming people when their job is to stop people from harming people I'd point you to Nietzsche: "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

It's that bit self reflection "should see to it...he does not become a monster" that police training and mental support needs to emphasize.

Besides, if that's the problem, the solution is easy - take all the cops' guns, then offer them all mandatory mental health support.

I don't think the first part is actually practical, given the job that police need to do. I do think that the second half is not only necessary, but decidedly lacking in U.S. policing.

Keep in mind that police in the U.S. are organized by city, not at state or federal levels. Hiring, equipping, training, provisions for mental support, etc. are not uniform across the nation or indeed across any individual state as each city and town has to make their own budgetary decisions on how to, and how much to pay for law enforcement.

Perhaps it would be beneficial overall if some of that control was shifted up a level or two, to county or state levels. Have mandatory police training from accredited statewide police training academies, as opposed to the current hodge-podge of whatever a city bothers to fund (if they bother to sufficiently fund training at all).

And on top of the training going in funding at the state or county level for mental health for police officers, again instead of each city and town fending for it's own.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:36 pm UTC

I challenge you to find a paramedic who hasn't had (repeated) experience with aggressive, agitated patients who wish to do them harm.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

Paramedics aren't armed on the job, but you can bet your ass that if they were there'd be a lot more euthanasia.

You seem to think that cops literally wake up in the morning saying "hoo-boy, today's the day I get to kill somebody's son!" That's not what happens at all.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

They are "armed" with all the equipment necessary for euthanasia, though, so you kinda just disproved your own claim.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I challenge you to find a paramedic who hasn't had (repeated) experience with aggressive, agitated patients who wish to do them harm.


It's an interesting comparison, but it just goes back to the same point about training and workplace culture.

Paramedics are steeped in saving lives. Professionally their first view of an environment isn't threat analysis, it's injury triage. Looking for the people who need help first. Assessing people as a threat comes secondary to saving the injured.

Police are called on to be "Monster Hunters", and to be fair there are humans with monsterous intent that require that kind of profession to deal with. That said the culture in police departments has become driven almost exclusively by this "monster Hunting" philosophy. I think this has little to do with policing itself (as police in other countries can keep from murdering innocents, it can't be the nature of the job), but rather that for as long as I can remember, and probably longer than that "Tough on Crime" politics has generally been favored in the U.S.

It's a concept called "Tone at the Top", somewhat broadly stated that the behavior of people at the top of an organization will filter down the ranks through everyone else. In the U.S. there's a long history of politics that emphasizes criminals as monsters that need to be dealt with. The "War on Drugs" is the poster child for this kind of mentality, where people who are ill are treated as criminals rather than as people who need help.

For police it's hard to get much more "at the top" than the politicians and career bureaucrats who get in to their offices by espousing these policies (unless you want to point all the way to the voters that make these policies successful ate getting these people in to office*). Paramedics often as not work for private companies that provide ambulance services rather than for political entities.

*(personally I think this gets muddied with modern(post WWII) marketing, but that's for another time).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:03 pm UTC

The police's moto is literally "to protect and serve". And police in other countries somehow don't have the same murder rates that police in the US have. It is not an obvious necessity of the world that police murder people, and you're treating it like it is.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:The police's moto is literally "to protect and serve". And police in other countries somehow don't have the same murder rates that police in the US do. It is not an obvious necessity of the world that police murder people, and you're treating it like it is.


Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Dauric wrote: I think this has little to do with policing itself (as police in other countries can keep from murdering innocents, it can't be the nature of the job), but rather that for as long as I can remember, and probably longer than that "Tough on Crime" politics has generally been favored in the U.S.


There is a need for police. I find the attitude of "GARR Police Bad!" to be not constructive. I'm more interested in why this disparity exists. It's not that U.S. police have guns either, many other countries have police that are more heavily armed than we have in the U.S. and they manage to not be murder machines.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:12 pm UTC

Apologies, your reply was posted while I was editing a different reply, so there were a few mixed messages there.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:13 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Apologies, your reply was posted while I was editing a different reply, so there were a few mixed messages there.

No problems, the internet loves us all in it's own way (and usually ignores our safewords).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:15 pm UTC

This conversation reminds me of an anecdote that I might have already shared upthread: I work from home, and one day I was having a really stressful day at work and screaming about it alone inside my house. A neighbor must've heard that and called the cops, who came by to make sure nobody was getting murdered or anything. At the end of the interaction (during which I was very embarrassed and apologetic about them having to come out there), the police said that they were glad to have gotten to meet "one of the good people" of their community, which gave me the impression that their day-to-day run-ins must be with people who are a lot more unpleasant to deal with than someone just stressed as hell about their job.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:18 pm UTC

TBH, I think it's because of the gun culture. In Germany, it's quite rare for someone, even criminals, to have a loaded gun in the house. The police aren't thinking "this person probably has a gun" every time they make an arrest. In the US, guns and especially handguns are so prevalent that cops assume the person is armed until proven otherwise. The suspect reaches for his cell-OHSHITGUN*BANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANG*. Oops, "I felt endangered for my fellow officers lives".

High death rates by cops, along with mass school shootings and muggings at gunpoint and murder in general, are the price we pay for the freedom to buy and sell firearms second-hand from "friends" without having to do any sort of background check, and having guns untraceable. Thank you NRA, because ensuring I can resell my gun is far more important than stopping perhaps a thousand murders each year with just the most common sense of gun control laws.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:19 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:the police said that they were glad to have gotten to meet "one of the good people" of their community, which gave me the impression that their day-to-day run-ins must be with people who are a lot more unpleasant to deal with than someone just stressed as hell about their job.

Or that they judge people as being equivocally good or bad without any nuance.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:39 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:This conversation reminds me of an anecdote that I might have already shared upthread: I work from home, and one day I was having a really stressful day at work and screaming about it alone inside my house. A neighbor must've heard that and called the cops, who came by to make sure nobody was getting murdered or anything. At the end of the interaction (during which I was very embarrassed and apologetic about them having to come out there), the police said that they were glad to have gotten to meet "one of the good people" of their community, which gave me the impression that their day-to-day run-ins must be with people who are a lot more unpleasant to deal with than someone just stressed as hell about their job.

The cop was talking about minorities. If you were black, you'd be beaten up or shot etc etc. Generally, you'd be treated much worse, and with less sympathy.


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