Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

The argument is your initial statement is that when dealing with violent white people they show restraint and violent black people they don't (paraphrased). The deaths on arrest and arrest statistics don't back that up. The statistics were showing black people corresponded to ~30% of the arrests/encounters and ~30% of the "deaths on arrest". The 30% of arrests is WAY off the demographics. But that they make up the same percentage in both means the police aren't biased in who they kill, but rather in who they stop.

This DOES matter in terms of what training needs to be done. Clearly they need training to not kill people but they also need training to not profile people. Your disparity in deaths is due to that original profiling not some need to kill black people instead of white people.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

I remember the original discussion we had and I disagree with your analysis of the numbers. The point stands - they're capable of doing better, and they're not.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm UTC

Curiosity:

Does the shoot/not-shoot dichotomy have more to do with affluence than race? Statistics aren't my field so I'd probably fark up the numbers looking in to it. My thought is that, for a variety of historical reasons, blacks and Hispanics often make up higher proportions of low-income neighborhoods. Police tensions could be made up significantly of 'class struggle' rather than just racial bias. (note: i'm sot saying that racial bias doesn't have a role to play in these incidents, just that the correlation of race and class may be concealing other influences by making it look like racism.)

Class struggles would fit more with the recorded African-American police officer firing on another black person incidents than just racism, even the "black officer trying to fit in to an environment of institutionalized racism" concept. Joining a police force has a certain class mobility to it in much the same way a medieval commoner joining the clergy was effectively elevated (and separated) from their former station in life. With police forces that engage more heavily in "Reactive Policing" than "Community policing"* having less broad community involvement reinforces the class separation between the "commoners" and the "police warrior" classes. Add to that reactive policing's emphasis on 'catching criminals' rather than the goal of community policing to "establish and maintain a safe orderly environment", the former leaves the majority of police interactions with law-breakers which may lead to a jaded and/or fearful outlook on the population s a whole, where a more holistic community-involved policing style may generate a more balanced outlook on the population as a whole.

*tl;dr: Reactive policing is an outgrowth of 20'th century motor vehicles, telecommunications, suburbanization and policing by deploying rapid response from a centralized location to a reported crime, where Community Policing involves more community patrols and community involvement, and police officers with a greater degree of autonomy than is given to reactive forces.

I'm currently at work and typing this between bouts of stuff breaking, so I hope this post is as coherent as I think it is, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:30 pm UTC

Umm, no zohar, the point is that the cops are harassing black people more often; the deaths are a symptom of that, rather than the direct result of a murderboner that cops get at the sight of black men.

And dauric, yeah, I think its more classism than racism.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Police shoot unarmed black people more often because they interact with black people more often...

Black people are the minority, so the police should interact with them less, not more. If you are claiming that there is a disproportionate amount of interaction and that this imbalance causes the Simpson's Paradox to make it appear that police shoot black people more, then I am going to have to ask you for a citation.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Does the shoot/not-shoot dichotomy have more to do with affluence than race?
Classism and racism both play a part, of course, but they see race immediately upon seeing someone's face, and class not so much. And racial disparity continues to exist in all the statistics no matter how good a job you do controlling for class.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:49 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Black people are the minority, so the police should interact with them less, not more. If you are claiming that there is a disproportionate amount of interaction and that this imbalance causes the Simpson's Paradox to make it appear that police shoot black people more, then I am going to have to ask you for a citation.
I can't speak to the Simpson's paradox -- and I don't know if I agree with the post you're replying to -- but if you need a citation that police interact with black people more often than white people, then I think you're in the wrong thread.

This phenomenon been so clearly studied and thoroughly demonstrated again and again that it's akin to asking for a citation that the earth is getting warmer. Just *asking for a citation* implies a tremendous breadth of ignorance.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:52 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Umm, no zohar, the point is that the cops are harassing black people more often; the deaths are a symptom of that, rather than the direct result of a murderboner that cops get at the sight of black men.

Why are you opposed to having two separate issues? Cops kill too many people, and they can kill fewer. That's a fact. It's not a necessity that these people be shot, it's bad training on behalf of the cops. We know this because suspects in the same circumstances end up sometimes getting shot and sometimes not getting shot, even when unarmed and in a nonthreatening position. And also cops shouldn't deal with black people as much, and that's also something that can be resolved with training and proper leadership.

I'm not sure what's unclear. Cops are racists - this may not be evident by the death rate of black people by the police but definitely is by the rate of harassment of black people. Cops are also overly reactive and violent, which is evident by the high death rate of suspects.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

Because they are separate problems that require different solutions to fix. Focus on getting cops to stop harassing black people, and that solves the problem of black people being killed more often.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:... but they see race immediately upon seeing someone's face, and class not so much.

Class can be apparent to the officers from -where- the incident takes place. Income distribution can often be mapped geographically, as officers patrolling a low income area will generally have a predisposed opinion of the class of the people they encounter there.

And racial disparity continues to exist in all the statistics no matter how good a job you do controlling for class.

But this is ultimately what I was curious about. Another question about it though, again statistics isn't my field but I know just enough algebra and programming to be dangerous*: does the reverse of this also hold true? Do the class disparities exist or disappear when the statistics are controlled for by race?

*grand upshot of this being I don't know the statistical equations, but I do know your output can sometimes depend on the order of your input.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Because they are separate problems that require different solutions to fix. Focus on getting cops to stop harassing black people, and that solves the problem of black people being killed more often.


I guarantee you police organizations go through extensive training and are perfectly capable of developing two different training programs and delivering them at the same time. Even if you have to deal with this serially, either of these issues will reduce the number of black people killed by police.

According to the stats you provided, 30% of police encounters are with black people, and black people represent about 13% of the population. Suppose to enact a fantastic racial sensitivity program that gets that rate down to 13%. So we have 30/13=2.3 times fewer black deaths (and the same number of non-black deaths). Do you really think the remaining deaths are justified? Do you really think police has to kill this many people? I doubt that very much. For one thing, a third of these deaths are of people who are unarmed, so none of them have to be killed. And we already know armed suspects can be subdued without killing. So from where I'm standing, a program to stop police killings is likely to be more effective at reducing black people's deaths than a program for reducing racial profiling. And at the end of the day, both can be done at once.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:44 pm UTC

Zohar, I think Chen was initially saying was that, according to some statistics, more black people get shot by police because more black people get stopped by police to begin with, which is its own problem, but per-stop the shooting rate was pretty even by race. So the problem is not in "training cops not to shoot black people" specifically, it's (A) training them not to disproportionately stop black people in the first place, and (B) training them not to unnecessarily shoot people they've stopped, regardless of race.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:56 pm UTC

Yes, that's why I said we should do those two things that you mentioned in the post you directly replied to, and the one before that.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 pm UTC

White people in general aren't marching in the streets due to police killing white men. It seems to me that the problem isn't that police are killing black people but that they are killing disproportionately more black people. That's what causing the psychological scars. Which has done more harm to the black community, lynching or pellagra? Which killed more?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:13 pm UTC

You are comparing deaths resulting from mob violence and a disease with deaths done by murderous cops and deaths done by murderous cops. And again you're talking about this as a false dichotomy, as if one issue must be treated before the other, when both will achieve what people are interested in, and both can occur at the same time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:...And again you're talking about this as a false dichotomy, as if one issue must be treated before the other, when both will achieve what people are interested in, and both can occur at the same time.


Both can be done at the same time yes, but there's an important distinction in that you have to get both approaches to address the right issues.

To wit:

If we assume the postulates that blacks are being stopped more often than whites, and the other postulate that police shootings are a function of stops regardless of race of the person stopped then:

An in-depth class on not shooting black people, and/or another class on lowering police interactions with potential suspects regardless of race is unlikely to have any practical effect as these classes approach the problems from the wrong perspectives. The first doesn't deal with general-purpose conflict-resolution, "mystery object in hand", 'combat paranoia', etc. issues which (given the postulates above) isn't the direct cause of shootings once the stop has been enacted. Likewise an over-broadly focused attempt to reduce police stops doesn't actually address the racism in the stops. Combined they both technically address "racism" and "excessive force", but they address them in the context of the wrong triggers.

Assuming I'm reading everyone correctly (it's Friday, i'm tired and ready to go home for the weekend, so it's no sure bet), the way I'm reading Corruptuser's argument isn't that one or the other must be done in a zero-sum resource game. My reading is they're saying both must be done because both racial profiling in police stops, and excessive use of force once stops have been initiated are both problems, but care has to be taken to match the correct trigger-response pairs in the solutions or they won't actually solve anything.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:43 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I can't speak to the Simpson's paradox -- and I don't know if I agree with the post you're replying to -- but if you need a citation that police interact with black people more often than white people, then I think you're in the wrong thread.

Imagine Adam and Ben are both professional baseball hitters. Adam hit twice as many home-runs as Ben; most people would conclude from this that Adam is a better hitter than Ben. However, if you learn that Adam went up to the plate 3 times as often as Ben, then it is clear that Ben is the better hitter. This is an example of Simpson's Paradox. Here is a video that goes into it more.

To claim that the same thing happens with police brutality toward black people is valid. However, a studying proving that would be extremely difficult. That is why I want a citation.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:47 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:<stuff>

That is literally what I wrote. For the THIRD time:
POLICE HAVE MANDATORY TRAINING. THEY CAN BE TRAINED ON MULTIPLE THINGS. POLICIES CAN BE MODIFIED.

YOU CAN TRAIN POLICE TO ARREST AND CONFRONT FEWER BLACK PEOPLE.

YOU CAN TRAIN POLICE NOT TO USE DEADLY FORCE SO READILY.

I hope that was clear that I'm talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS that both affect THE SAME THING and both NEED TO CHANGE.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:14 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Yes, that's why I said we should do those two things that you mentioned in the post you directly replied to, and the one before that.

FWIW I realize now that I was reading the bottom of page 144 (and responding to your post there, not the one right above mine), somehow not realizing at the time that there was already a page 145 with more discussion on it.

At that point in the discussion it sounded like you didn't get why the separate statistics about shootings-per-stop and stops-per-race were relevant when they just add up to shootings-per-race anyway, which I think Dauric has explained most eloquently and it sounds like you agree with so I guess problem solved? Sorry if I added any confusion from not realizing I was missing part of the discussion.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:55 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Umm, no zohar, the point is that the cops are harassing black people more often; the deaths are a symptom of that, rather than the direct result of a murderboner that cops get at the sight of black men.

Why are you opposed to having two separate issues? Cops kill too many people, and they can kill fewer. That's a fact. It's not a necessity that these people be shot, it's bad training on behalf of the cops. We know this because suspects in the same circumstances end up sometimes getting shot and sometimes not getting shot, even when unarmed and in a nonthreatening position. And also cops shouldn't deal with black people as much, and that's also something that can be resolved with training and proper leadership.

I'm not sure what's unclear. Cops are racists - this may not be evident by the death rate of black people by the police but definitely is by the rate of harassment of black people. Cops are also overly reactive and violent, which is evident by the high death rate of suspects.


While I don't disagree with anything else here, I'm not sure that root cause is "bad training".

Some cops have had plenty of training, and still partake in wildly inappropriate violence. It isn't clear that they are necessarily well meaning, and will do well if only they can get a bit more violence.

I believe cops need a good bit more punishment. Carrot and stick are both useful, but police get far less of the latter than the average person, and the lack of consequences for wrongdoing has to be at least a heavy contributing factor.

This is, of course, entirely consistent with racially unfair outcomes if you think consequences are lower, on average, for violence directed at minorities.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Imagine Adam and Ben are both professional baseball hitters. Adam hit twice as many home-runs as Ben; most people would conclude from this that Adam is a better hitter than Ben. However, if you learn that Adam went up to the plate 3 times as often as Ben, then it is clear that Ben is the better hitter. This is an example of Simpson's Paradox. Here is a video that goes into it more.

To claim that the same thing happens with police brutality toward black people is valid. However, a studying proving that would be extremely difficult. That is why I want a citation.
I am familiar with the Yule–Simpson effect. What I was responding to was this:
jewish_scientist wrote:Black people are the minority, so the police should interact with them less, not more.
Police approach black people -- either to interrogate, arrest, or otherwise harass them -- at rates significantly higher than white people. Black people also face disproportionately severe sentencing in courts for similar crimes (when compared to white people with similar criminal histories and circumstances). The justice system is rife with this sort of behavior. Racial profiling is a phenomenon that has been thoroughly studied and demonstrated.

There are three possibilities here: Police are killing black people either because: A) Police escalate to lethal violence in all interactions way too quickly, and racial profiling thereby results in them killing a disproportionate number of black people, B) Police escalate to lethal violence when dealing with black people specifically, or C) Some combination of both.

My money is on C). Either way, both of these problems -- the racial profiling inherent in our justice system and the disproportionate application of lethal force in response to little or no genuine threat -- don't strike me as entirely separate problems with separate solutions. Both are addressed with better training, holding officers accountable for their actions, and adopting better, more rigorous hiring standards.

I'd bet money that most officers who are quick to reach for their guns are also quick to suspect someone on account of their skin color -- and vice versa.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:58 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:There are three possibilities here: Police are killing black people either because: A) Police escalate to lethal violence in all interactions way too quickly, and racial profiling thereby results in them killing a disproportionate number of black people, B) Police escalate to lethal violence when dealing with black people specifically, or C) Some combination of both.

My money is on C). Either way, both of these problems -- the racial profiling inherent in our justice system and the disproportionate application of lethal force in response to little or no genuine threat -- don't strike me as entirely separate problems with separate solutions. Both are addressed with better training, holding officers accountable for their actions, and adopting better, more rigorous hiring standards.

I'd bet money that most officers who are quick to reach for their guns are also quick to suspect someone on account of their skin color -- and vice versa.


I agree that it's C, but what I'm in disagreement with Zohar on is that I'm trying to say that the problem of A is an order of magnitude worse than B. The unnecessary police shootings amount to what, 300 extra people dead? But the problem is that these 300 deaths basically have the same effect as hate crimes, in that they cause far more psychological harm than just a death would. If the racial component was eliminated, and we brought the 300 deaths down to 100 deaths, the overwhelming majority of the psychological harm disappears, and then we are just dealing with 100 deaths. While still tragic, this is a drop in the bucket compared to alcohol, cigarettes, heroin, obesity, choking, etc etc.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:16 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The unnecessary police shootings amount to what, 300 extra people dead?

~300 people have been killed by police in 2018 already. The amount per year is closer to 1,000 people.

But the problem is that these 300 deaths basically have the same effect as hate crimes, in that they cause far more psychological harm than just a death would. If the racial component was eliminated, and we brought the 300 deaths down to 100 deaths, the overwhelming majority of the psychological harm disappears, and then we are just dealing with 100 deaths.

I am confused by what you are saying.

While still tragic, this is a drop in the bucket compared to alcohol, cigarettes, heroin, obesity...

All of those things have extremely complicated causes, no clear solutions, and are not caused by people specifically charged with protecting the victims. Fixing police brutality is not easy, but I would much rather deal with that than take on the health epidemics.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:34 am UTC

Eh, I think it's pretty directly proportional to the number of unnecessary deaths. Any unnecessary death is going to fracture the community, cause distrust and other various knock on effects. I mean, Baltimore PD isn't considered super racist(it is composed of a majority of minorities, which is probably better representation than most)...but still nobody trusts it, because holy crap are they corrupt.

Law enforcement killings are probably more problematic than most forms of death, because, for murder, the standard solution is "turn to law enforcement", which doesn't work at all in this case.

I'm all for fixing other things as well, but...I can do more to fight obesity on my own than I can for police corruption, yknow?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:56 am UTC

In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:25 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The unnecessary police shootings amount to what, 300 extra people dead?

~300 people have been killed by police in 2018 already. The amount per year is closer to 1,000 people.

But the problem is that these 300 deaths basically have the same effect as hate crimes, in that they cause far more psychological harm than just a death would. If the racial component was eliminated, and we brought the 300 deaths down to 100 deaths, the overwhelming majority of the psychological harm disappears, and then we are just dealing with 100 deaths.

I am confused by what you are saying.

While still tragic, this is a drop in the bucket compared to alcohol, cigarettes, heroin, obesity...

All of those things have extremely complicated causes, no clear solutions, and are not caused by people specifically charged with protecting the victims. Fixing police brutality is not easy, but I would much rather deal with that than take on the health epidemics.


There's about 1000 police shootings a year. Most of them really are the case of a person that clearly was a threat to society; had a gun, was threatening, etc. It'd be nice if the police had captured instead of killed, but eh, not losing sleep over it. We aren't going to have police shootings at a rate similar to Sweden because guns are everywhere, so stop comparing. Of the thousand, 7% are unarmed, and a few more were only armed after the police altered the crime scene. Then you have cases like Tamir Rice, who was in a state where concealed carry was legal so whether he had a realistic toy gun or an actual gun, the police screwed up. But I don't think those cases are the majority, just disturbingly common. So, 30%.

What I am saying is very simple. The damage caused by a police shooting isn't "one person dead" but "one person dead and entire community traumatized", much like a hate crime. You get rid of the racial bias, and it's back to "one person dead", and while several hundred dead is still tragic, it does no where near as much damage as it would with the trauma.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:34 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:But the problem is that these 300 deaths basically have the same effect as hate crimes, in that they cause far more psychological harm than just a death would. If the racial component was eliminated, and we brought the 300 deaths down to 100 deaths, the overwhelming majority of the psychological harm disappears, and then we are just dealing with 100 deaths.

I am confused by what you are saying.


It's the difference between One million homes still at risk from deadly tumble dryers, 6,000 tumble dryers burst into flames in six years, 1792 deaths and 24101 people seriously injured on the roads per year, 8,697 alcohol-related deaths registered in the UK in one year and
Second Jewish building in Sweden attacked with firebombs

Molotov cocktails thrown at chapel in Malmo cemetery, two days after synagogue in Gothenburg hit; on Friday, marchers in Malmo vowed to 'shoot the Jews'


The They Are Out To Get You factor.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:01 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:We aren't going to have police shootings at a rate similar to Sweden because guns are everywhere, so stop comparing.
I'll keep comparing, thank you very much: Guns are everywhere in Sweden, too.
CorruptUser wrote:What I am saying is very simple. The damage caused by a police shooting isn't "one person dead" but "one person dead and entire community traumatized", much like a hate crime. You get rid of the racial bias, and it's back to "one person dead", and while several hundred dead is still tragic, it does no where near as much damage as it would with the trauma.
I, uh, don't think you can just kill people at random without causing significant trauma. And even if we waved our wands and magically ended racial profiling (without addressing the overwhelmingly excessive use of lethal force), police would still kill some groups disproportionately to others. It'd probably just be poor people feeling terrified instead of black people.

I'm not sure what sort of moral calculus you're trying to pull off, here? This is a complex problem with a lot of underlying causes. Racial profiling and excessive use of force are not issues that can be easily untangled. I don't think it's too much to ask for police to stop doing both.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:There's about 1000 police shootings a year. Most of them really are the case of a person that clearly was a threat to society; had a gun, was threatening, etc. It'd be nice if the police had captured instead of killed, but eh, not losing sleep over it. We aren't going to have police shootings at a rate similar to Sweden because guns are everywhere, so stop comparing. Of the thousand, 7% are unarmed, and a few more were only armed after the police altered the crime scene. Then you have cases like Tamir Rice, who was in a state where concealed carry was legal so whether he had a realistic toy gun or an actual gun, the police screwed up. But I don't think those cases are the majority, just disturbingly common. So, 30%.


Well, there's also "armed" in that it includes knives, blunt objects, etc. And that law enforcement doesn't really tally up its kills nationwide, because they're not super interested in doing so. So, underreporting problems.

For instance, in 2015, the Washington Post counted 990 people shot dead by police; the Guardian counted 1,146 killed; Fatal Encounters recorded 1,357 killed.

I'm not sure which of those is most accurate, but undercounts seem more likely than overcounts. Also, there's all the violence that stops short of killing. A beating that leaves someone injured is still pretty awful. The total number of violent crimes by police seems like it could be quite large.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:57 pm UTC

Yes, armed includes other weapons. Officially, 7% had no weapons, unofficially, a bit more had no weapons before the police killed them, so it's more like 10%. And I use 30% because my gut feeling, that I admittedly pull out my rectum, is that another 20% are cases where the person was armed but the situation could have easily resulted in an arrest if the police hadn't been so trigger-happy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 pm UTC

As I have explicitly said a program to reduce police violence across the board will lead to fewer deaths than a program that just targets racial profiling, my only conclusion is I am writing in a foreign language and you are unable to understand my words.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:48 pm UTC

Apparently we speak different languages, because I'm trying to explain to you that the number of deaths is not the core issue.

Let's say black people are 20% of the population, white people 80% (ignore hispanics and asians). There's 1000 deaths by the police per year, 400 black 600 white. Which scenario would you consider to be the greatest improvement?

Scenario A) 360 black and 540 white deaths
Scenario B) 600 black and 200 white deaths
Scenario C) 320 black and 600 white deaths

A is a mere 10% across the board
B is 20% reduction but things have gotten MUCH worse for black people
C is only an 8% reduction, but with less racism

If you were to judge things only on number of deaths, surely you'd pick scenario B, right?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:55 pm UTC

That seems a somewhat implausible trichotomy though: Any program that sought to reduce deaths across the board would be unlikely to cause an increase in the absolute number (as opposed to ratio) of black deaths.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:11 pm UTC

It is entirely plausible to have policies that adversely affect certain ethnicities while reducing death rates *cough*druglaws*cough*, but that's not the point. The point is that it's not the number of dead that's the problem but the psychological effect of racist deaths (aka hate crimes) that is.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:55 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It is entirely plausible to have policies that adversely affect certain ethnicities while reducing death rates *cough*druglaws*cough*, but that's not the point.

Do drug laws reduce death rates? All the evidence I've seen says 'harm-reduction strategies' like prescribing addicts their drug of choice in a controlled medical environment have the lowest death rates as well as (paradoxically) reducing the number of addicts overall. Our drug laws are not merely racist in execution but utterly counter-productive.

We look into the past and scoff at how backward we were back then, and think how enlightened we are now in comparison; Drug policies are going to be one of the ways future generations will look back at us and wonder why we were so stubbornly idiotic.

So I remain unconvinced: I still think that any strategy that seeks to reduce death rates across the board is unlikely to see a significant spike in absolute deaths for one ethnicity (unless it is enacted atrociously I suppose, and actually increases death rates across the board, like drug laws...)

However, I do agree that crimes that appear to be motivated by a deep-seated hatred have a deep psychological impact on the target demographic - whether that's perceived racist policing, hate crimes, or, indeed, most acts of terrorism.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:47 am UTC

In terms of police deaths, drug policies can have... weird effects. In a hypothetical situation where we decriminalized meth and managed to otherwise get it out of the hands of the biker gangs and so forth, that basically eliminates a fair chunk of police shootings of white people, but if they only way the Meth Decriminalization Act could get through congress was a compromise which made crack possession basically a life sentence, that's going to lead to more black people killed by the police. Remember how the President had wanted the death penalty for drug dealers whose drugs killed people? What do you think such a policy would actually do when it comes to police vs drug dealers?

But this is besides the point I was trying to make. Point is, it's not the number of deaths that the most serious issue.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:18 am UTC

Again, that's a somewhat weird situation; It's unlikely any such compromise could come to pass. Having said that, drug laws are just a mess as you suggest - contrast penalties for cocaine vs crack, or, until pretty recently, harsh penalties for heroin vs opioid prescriptions given a virtual free pass and handed out like candy.

I still both agree and disagree with your main point though: The deaths do have a much greater impact on communities than the mere numbers might suggest, yes, but reducing them across the board would still help everyone including those communities.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:43 pm UTC

Ugh, I don't give a shit anymore.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:02 am UTC

Zohar wrote:Ugh, I don't give a shit anymore.
Yes you do.
Like me, you are worn down and exhausted.

We care.
We are helpless.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:31 pm UTC

You misunderstand addams. It's not that I don't give a shit about police misbehavior. I'm tired of explaining people's misreadings of my posts.
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