Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon May 14, 2018 2:11 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.


Maybe people are so afraid of the police shooting them that they're firing in self-defense when seeing a cop? Both my and your arguments are equally bullshit.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 14, 2018 2:17 pm UTC

The simplest way to get people to stop killing the police is to have the police held accountable when they kill people so that the justice system is not viewed as the enemy...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
sociotard wrote:I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.

"These two things kinda happen together, therefore I think we should focus on the orders-of-magnitude less serious problem that will be extremely complex to solve first, and only after taking care of that should we look at the much more serious problem that could be greatly reduced simply by holding police accountable for the homicides they commit."


By population, the police are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by the people than the people are to be killed by police.

My implication was that police in the US were more likely to shoot first because they were more afraid of being shot, and that maybe we should look at the systemic causes of violence instead of treating police like bad actors.

Wow, liberals really don't have any mercy for the police. I thought it was just a conservative smear.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Mon May 14, 2018 4:03 pm UTC

The police are meant to be the good guys and the trained professionals here; there is not an equivalence between police killing citizens and citizens killing the police.

Obviously we should look at the systemic causes of violence, but unfortunately for conservatives that tends to be poverty, poor education, poor life opportunities and so on - issues which their policies tend to exacerbate.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 14, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:By population, the police are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by the people than the people are to be killed by police.
Police signed up for that job (and it's not in the top 10 dangerous job, nor is it even the most likely job to get you killed by violence), civilians didn't.

Also, how do those statistics look if you narrow it down to people of the race and age range most likely to be killed by police?

Wow, liberals really don't have any mercy for the police.

I'm not a liberal, but yeah, #ACAB.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon May 14, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:My point is that stereotypes are dangerous, not that they are wrong.


Certainly. If one were to assume that a person was a racist merely because he'd not had much education, or assumed someone wasn't racist because they were successful, you could easily err.

A statistical tendency can exist, but over-reliance on that knowledge does land people in hot water all the time.

So, it may be that some racist police are otherwise competent...but I would imagine that those who are racist and who kill people without reasonable cause are less likely to be competent. Even if one entirely ignores the racist factor, competency and killing people who have done nothing to deserve it are sort of exclusive properties.

sociotard wrote:I'm pretty confident about most of the data, except "rate of gun ownership". Evidently it was found by survey (because the government can't track it) and people are as honest on gun ownership questions as they are on penis length questions. I mean, any study that says Hawaii has a higher rate of gun ownership than Texas . . .


That is pretty odd. The "US cops shoot it out lethally with civilians more frequently in general" does match other data I've seen, but I do have trouble believing that Hawaii has more guns than Texas.

I'm also not sure that number of laws is a good metric. Laws are not a fungible good like barrels of oil or something. A law banning a wide class of weapons is treated identically to a law that pre-empts local firearm regulation, but the two laws are nothing alike. Quantity of law doesn't really indicate quality, and this is true regardless of what side of the argument you are on.

I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.


The two are definitely interrelated. That said, I can't reasonably categorize all police violence as reactive. This thread has a large number of examples where the police resorted to violence without first being threatened themselves.

That sort of thing seems like it should be entirely addressable without dealing with police security at all. Their motivation there isn't so much security as it is compliance. Police routinely resort to tasers, batons, physical violence, or firearms merely to enforce compliance.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Mon May 14, 2018 7:27 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.

Maybe we should have them all wear always on bodycams so that we can start gathering data that can be used with AI in the future to help warn them of danger. If we wait for the AI tech to get there before we start gathering the data, it will be that much longer before it is functional and many more police will die. I'm sure we can figure out other uses for the footage in the meantime.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 pm UTC

The guy has "tard" in his name. Can we just ignore them until proven that it is not a troll?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:I put together a chart for an argument on another forum and thought I'd share. The US has more police shootings than any other developed country, but it also has the most shootings of police. That trend continues on a state to state basis. I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.


Sure looks to me like gun control laws + lower gun ownership solves both problems.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 14, 2018 8:28 pm UTC

Well you know, the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun is if the bad guy didnt have a gun in the first place. Wait...

Guns dont kill people, people with guns do. Wait, no, bullets do. Umm...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Mon May 14, 2018 9:47 pm UTC

Guns don't kill people, people who say "guns don't kill people" kill people. With guns.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Tue May 15, 2018 5:51 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
sociotard wrote:By population, the police are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by the people than the people are to be killed by police.
Police signed up for that job (and it's not in the top 10 dangerous job, nor is it even the most likely job to get you killed by violence), civilians didn't.

1) I draw a very stark distinction between "Job that killed a person by accident" and "Job that killed by violence". I am aware that Police are not as likely to die on the job as loggers or some kinds of fisher. However, we are apes. Humans tend to react very differently to the threat of an accident than to the threat of human-on-human violence, with further distinctions based on whether our ape-brain recognizes the source of violence as in-group or out-group (as you alluded to, this is often where the racial bias nastiness pops up). While I agree that learning to overcome the instinctive over-reaction to threat-of-violence is an ideal, it is a very high ideal and I don't feel justified holding everyone to that standard. The basal in me empathizes with the basal in you. EDIT: I empathize with over-reacting to the threat of violence, not to racism. Still, while racial bias is a factor here, it isn't everything.

2) I am not aware of other jobs that are more likely to kill by violence. This Vox article marks it as having the highest murder rate, but it suspiciously doesn't include sex workers. If you have data showing which jobs are more likely to face on-the-job violence, I'd love to see it.

3) I absolutely do not accept the argument that police fatalities are okay because they signed up for it. On a smaller scope, people who get customer service sign up knowing they'll get berated and sworn at, but that doesn't mean they have to accept it. It is still wrong. So it is with police. They want to live. They want their friends to live. They shouldn't be expected to be cannon fodder.

gmalivuk wrote:Also, how do those statistics look if you narrow it down to people of the race and age range most likely to be killed by police?


Very well, I'll look that up for you. Again, these are mere napkin-grade calculations.
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Using the Washington Post data, I get, over a 3.25 year period, 1544 white people killed, 775 black people, and 549 Hispanic. The Census gives 194552774 white people in the country, 33947837 black, and 35305818 hispanic. That works out to 2.4 white people per million white guys being killed by cops, 7.0 black people per million black people, and 4.8 Hispanic per million hispanic. Yep, it looks like cops are more likely to shoot people of color.

I use the FBI data next, for officers killed. 517 Killed by White people, 197 killed by black people, 51 by hispanic (over a 10 year period). 1,001,984 officers, so 51.6 officers per million officers killed by white people, 19.7 officers per million killed by black people, and 5.1 officers per million killed by Hispanic people.

So, while lumping everybody together leaves police an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by people than people killed by police (about 23 times more likely), police are only about three times more likely to be shot by black people than black people shot by police. That really emphasises the racism aspect.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue May 15, 2018 6:45 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:By population, the police are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by the people than the people are to be killed by police.

My implication was that police in the US were more likely to shoot first because they were more afraid of being shot, and that maybe we should look at the systemic causes of violence instead of treating police like bad actors.

Wow, liberals really don't have any mercy for the police. I thought it was just a conservative smear.


Just because someone feels fear does not mean that this fear is rational, and ought to be given credence.

I don't really care if a policeman claims to feel afraid, when it should be obvious that the individual he is shooting is unarmed and no real threat. If the fear ain't justified, he ought not be shooting. Color of skin isn't a reason. Disrespect isn't a reason.

I'm not at all liberal, so I don't think you can reasonably dismiss my viewpoint as mere partisanship.

I'm not contesting that there may be some police shootings that are justified. Merely that there are a fairly consistent number that are not. Even if one assumes that the only dodgy ones are the ones listed in articles posted here, there's a pretty steady supply of them. Reasonably, I suspect that we're likely missing a number of cases. Police generally have several advantages when describing a situation, so a lot of these videos rely on someone happening to catch them on video. That obviously doesn't happen in every case. So, there are probably further bad shoots that simply never come to light because the only non-cop witness is dead.

LaserGuy wrote:Sure looks to me like gun control laws + lower gun ownership solves both problems.


I mean, if you believe that Texas doesn't have many guns, but Hawaii does, then sure.

sociotard wrote:2) I am not aware of other jobs that are more likely to kill by violence. This Vox article marks it as having the highest murder rate, but it suspiciously doesn't include sex workers. If you have data showing which jobs are more likely to face on-the-job violence, I'd love to see it.


Any profession that involves "talking to the police" appears to be pretty rough. A big problem with the numbers is that, generally, killings by police are not counted as part of the murder rate.

Also, the military exists, and deals with violence and death. And yet, somehow military folks usually don't engage in the same patterns of behavior police do. Sure, war crimes are a thing, but they are far less frequently a thing, as compared to the violence faced.

Also, retail workers are killed in violent incidents that nearly equal police officer deaths. If one counts robberies and the accompanying threats of violence, as well as injuries lesser than death, it appears that retail workers also experience a lot of violence, yet very few retail workers kill customers. If one counts cashiers and other retail workers together, they definitely beat out police officers by a huge margin. Per capita, it might not be as high, but the risk is not distributed evenly. Folks who work at convenience stores, late at night, or who handle money are wildly disproportionately likely to experience violence. And yet, those people do not exhibit the lethal behavior of police.

sociotard wrote:3) I absolutely do not accept the argument that police fatalities are okay because they signed up for it. On a smaller scope, people who get customer service sign up knowing they'll get berated and sworn at, but that doesn't mean they have to accept it. It is still wrong. So it is with police. They want to live. They want their friends to live. They shouldn't be expected to be cannon fodder.


As compared to the people killed by police, who largely did not sign up for that, I sympathize less with the police. Of course, police do not deserve to be murdered, and nobody wants that, but if one party in a situation has all the choice, and the other has none, then yeah, the person choosing bears the responsibility for the outcome.

And reasonably speaking, when one selects a job, they ought to accept involved risks. You sign up for the military, you acknowledge that there's some risk you might end up deployed

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Tue May 15, 2018 9:07 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Sure looks to me like gun control laws + lower gun ownership solves both problems.


I mean, if you believe that Texas doesn't have many guns, but Hawaii does, then sure.


Not looking at specific states, just the trends as presented. Yes, there are definitely suspect parts of the data.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed May 16, 2018 2:39 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Sure looks to me like gun control laws + lower gun ownership solves both problems.


I mean, if you believe that Texas doesn't have many guns, but Hawaii does, then sure.


Not looking at specific states, just the trends as presented. Yes, there are definitely suspect parts of the data.


If the data is suspect, then the trends directly resulting from that data must also be suspect.

Let's look at Hawaii. Guns have to be registered with police within five days of purchase. Therefore, we can get pretty accurate gun ownership numbers without relying on surveys. Looks like we have 7,105 guns on the registry(CBS News), and about 1.4 million people(wikipedia). Now, even if I assume that every gun is owned by a different person(highest rate of gun ownership), which is...kind of optimistic, that only gets us about a gun for every 200 people. Half a percent, not nearly half the population.

That's a really big difference, about two orders of magnitude. That calls into question pretty much everything else.

If you prefer, you could instead track handgun permits, if you wish to see how many people are actually carrying firearms. In Hawaii, they have(2014, most recent numbers I could find), 183 permits. They do not allow carry without a permit, nor do they recognize permits from other states, so this should give you a pretty accurate idea of how many folks are legally carrying. Given Hawaii's distance, it seems unlikely that they are strongly affected by neighboring state's policies...by any indication, they appear to have extremely low rates of firearm ownership or use.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Wed May 16, 2018 3:40 pm UTC

I agree. It is possible the survey just had bad luck in its sampling, or it is possible people lied. Either way, it throws the whole study into question.

It's a shame, because as near as I can tell, there is no way to GET good data on by-state rates of gun ownership or guns per capita. In fact, many of the obvious ways to get it are illegal.

At least the law counts are valid. Sure, laws are not fungible, but they do give a good indicator a given state is practicing some gun control.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 17, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:At least the law counts are valid. Sure, laws are not fungible, but they do give a good indicator a given state is practicing some gun control.


Law counts are likely accurate(it's at least roughly close enough that the states I know don't stand out as obviously wrong), but may not be the best way to track how much gun control a state has. We might be better off using some admittedly less granular, but more objective count such as carry permits.

Maps of such things are available at https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/

As a source, they're obviously anti-gun control, but they have no particular reason to misrepresent the present state of laws.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sun May 20, 2018 6:22 am UTC

Black homeless man trying to buy food with a $10 bill? Apparently that warrants three months in jail waiting for the secret service to determine whether it is counterfeit or not. Turns out it was not.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 20, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Black homeless man trying to buy food with a $10 bill? Apparently that warrants three months in jail waiting for the secret service to determine whether it is counterfeit or not. Turns out it was not.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... l-is-real/


What was he on probation for?

Assuming that story isn't missing any key details, that homeless guy should get in contact with an attorney. Could get a decent settlement from the city...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sun May 20, 2018 3:28 pm UTC

He's suing the Burger King. But it doesn't matter what he was on probation for, as there was no reason to believe he violated probation. He was literally arrested for possession of money.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun May 20, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Black homeless man trying to buy food with a $10 bill? Apparently that warrants three months in jail waiting for the secret service to determine whether it is counterfeit or not. Turns out it was not.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... l-is-real/

Why not take 3 months? NHI, so I'm sure nobody felt any need to rush.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Sun May 20, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
Thesh wrote:Black homeless man trying to buy food with a $10 bill? Apparently that warrants three months in jail waiting for the secret service to determine whether it is counterfeit or not. Turns out it was not.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... l-is-real/

Why not take 3 months? NHI, so I'm sure nobody felt any need to rush.

"NHI"?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun May 20, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

I didn't recognise it, but Google suggests that 'NHI' = 'No Human Involved'

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Sun May 20, 2018 7:38 pm UTC

That's what I found too but wanted to double check with Coyne.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sun May 20, 2018 7:52 pm UTC

I suspect Coyne is being sarcastic, but yeah that's a common police dismissal of crimes involving poor people or sex workers or other folks they can get away with not caring about.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun May 20, 2018 9:41 pm UTC

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Because there sure didn't seem to be much urgency about getting this homeless man out of jail. He's probably out now only because the Court inquired as to the status of the case. It would not surprise me a bit if the money was determined to be valid quite some time before his release, but no one bothered to follow up.

Yes, NHI=No Human(s) Involved. It is one of the more odious police abuses, in which police services, investigation, or civil rights are withheld or deprioritized from people who are deemed "worthless or useless." I suspect it in this case because the individual was both homeless and a convicted criminal (probation), both of which are prone to NHI classification.

It may not be only the police in this case, public defender may have dragged their feet as well.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 20, 2018 11:55 pm UTC

According to the article the article referenced, he was released in February of 2016, or 2015 or whatever. In Boston...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon May 21, 2018 5:28 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:According to the article the article referenced, he was released in February of 2016, or 2015 or whatever. In Boston...

He was in jail from November 2015 to February 2016.


ETA:

The thing is, it is not only the police who misbehave...

Before the Law

Prestia said, “The million-dollar question is: When did they really know they didn’t have a witness? Did they really not know until 2013?” He suspects that, as he wrote in his complaint, they were “seeking long, undue adjournments of these cases to procure a guilty plea from plaintiff.”


Likewise, in the Ellis case, it is legitimate ask when they actually knew the bill was not counterfeit. It could well have been weeks before he was actually released. Did the police delay examining the evidence? Did the prosecutor delay dismissing the case? Not on the record. All we know for sure is, there was no apparent urgency to get Ellis out.

Sometimes civil rights just aren't a priority.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 21, 2018 1:27 pm UTC

He isnt suing the police though. Something is missing from the story.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Mon May 21, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

Feels like the sort of thing the police would have immunity from prosecution over - else every person eventually found innocent could sue over how long it took to clear them.

(Not saying I agree with that, but it feels like the sort of thing an overzealous legislature would do to 'prevent spurious lawsuits'...)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 21, 2018 6:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:He isnt suing the police though. Something is missing from the story.

What fantasy world do you live in where every wronged person has the time and money to fight a protracted legal battle against the state?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 21, 2018 6:53 pm UTC

The one where the attorneys work for 30-40% of the settlement.

Cites have had to pay out massively for wrongful imprisonment in the past, and the attorneys werent paid up front.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 pm UTC

"Cities have had to pay out" is ever so slightly different from "every person the city ever legitimately wronged sued the city"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Mon May 21, 2018 8:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:He isnt suing the police though. Something is missing from the story.


He would be hard pressed to win a suit against the police because, as shitty a situation as it was, they were technically following procedure. He wasn't being held for the allegedly counterfeit bill - he was being held on a probation violation that was triggered by the arrest on the allegedly counterfeit bill. And even though that charge turned out to be wrongful, until it was actually dropped he was technically still considered in violation of probation; so there was little chance of his being released during that time. They'll argue that they aren't responsible for the fact that it took the Secret Service three months to clear him.

As an aside, this sort of thing happens way more often than you might think; people waiting weeks or months before being cleared of charges. It's pretty rare that they sue successfully.

And as far as the Secret Service goes... good luck suing a federal agency for taking a long time. I suppose it's possible - but good luck. They investigate that sort of thing by order of scale; and so a single $10 bill is going to get pushed to the back of the line many times before it even gets looked at.

His suit against Burger King is his best bet, as they are the ones who wronged him initially, and there is actually a chance of winning. I hope he does.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 21, 2018 8:37 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:"Cities have had to pay out" is ever so slightly different from "every person the city ever legitimately wronged sued the city"


Your original question was whether every wronged person had the time and money. Im referring to this case.

In this particular case, as an unemployed homeless guy, time is the only resource he doesn't lack. So yes, he has the time. In a legal system where attorneys charge based on the settlement rather than the service, money is irrelevant. So he has the money.

He doesnt need a good attorney, or really he wont get a good attorney and thus he wont get what he deserves, but he can just go to a claims mill that charges 50%, the attorney has a paralegal file the paperwork, it goes in the system back and forth, no trial, city settles for $100/day, settlement is $10000, attorney takes $5000 and he gets $5000, end of story.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Mon May 21, 2018 9:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:"Cities have had to pay out" is ever so slightly different from "every person the city ever legitimately wronged sued the city"


Your original question was whether every wronged person had the time and money. Im referring to this case.

In this particular case, as an unemployed homeless guy, time is the only resource he doesn't lack. So yes, he has the time. In a legal system where attorneys charge based on the settlement rather than the service, money is irrelevant. So he has the money.

He doesnt need a good attorney, he can just go to a claims mill that charges 50%, the attorney has a paralegal file the paperwork, it goes in the system back and forth, no trial, city settles for $100/day, settlement is $6000, attorney takes $3000 and he gets $3000, end of story.


The city isn't likely to settle on this one. From their perspective, the police department followed the law. The guy was on probation, and his arrest triggered a violation of his probation. It's standard procedure to hold someone for a probation violation until it's resolved; and they have no control over how long it takes for the Secret Service to clear someone. The success rate for suing police departments for following the rules is pretty slim.

Dude is better off focusing on Burger King. They demonstratively wronged him; and they've got incentive to settle, just to avoid the press. I don't think he's going to get what he's asking, even before the lawyers take their cut; but he'll most likely get something.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 21, 2018 9:23 pm UTC

Eh, youre probably right.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby orthogon » Mon May 21, 2018 10:11 pm UTC

If he was on probation, presumably that means he was released before the end of a prison term to which he was sentenced for a previous real offence? So in effect he didn't get to not serve some of the time that he might otherwise have not had to serve, as it were. Sure, it sucks, but he didn't strictly speaking get wrongly incarcerated - he just did more time for the original offence than he might have done. Decisions to release prisoners on probation are often quite opaque and discretionary - the recent Warboys case in the UK put this issue in the spotlight. I'm absolutely not saying it's ok, though.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon May 21, 2018 10:28 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:So in effect he didn't get to not serve some of the time that he might otherwise have not had to serve, as it were.

Wut.

Also, no, that's not a justification to the arrest.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby orthogon » Mon May 21, 2018 10:36 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
orthogon wrote:So in effect he didn't get to not serve some of the time that he might otherwise have not had to serve, as it were.

Wut.

Also, no, that's not a justification to the arrest.

No, absolutely not. Doesn't sound like they had grounds to arrest him. But the parole situation magnified the effect of the unnecessary arrest by orders of magnitude.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.


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