Police misbehavior thread

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:50 pm UTC

I mean, it's literally the reason why he was there. Police officers have not actually sustained a lot of casualties stopping shooters. Yes, he should have gone in.

Yeah, he retired after this incident because he didn't want to face the results of what he did. If he was too old to do his job, that was probably not the time for him to decide that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:48 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The 'police not being required to stop a massacre' thing is most likely just a way of protecting the police department from a deluge of frivolous lawsuits. The police can't be everywhere, 24/7, and it's unreasonable to demand that they prevent every single mugging that occurs. The problem is when you start allowing the police to be liable for obvious dereliction of duty, you open the legal floodgates for the questionable dereliction of duty, and pretty soon the city is bankrupt due to legal fees. The result is that we end up protecting the obviously incompetent police, even if they do get fired but only if there is a massive public outcry.

And I am honestly not sure what the policy should be.

The policy should be you enforce actual policy that you have, and not pervert it by siding with cops all the time. In Chicago, we have a Civilian Office of Police Accountability(it was previously called IPRA)...except in it's entire existence, it hasn't once found an officer negligent, or at fault despite the city paying out millions year after year. If there was ever a union that needed busting, it's the first responders union, or just the cops. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... ting-cops/

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:48 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Because determining what is reasonable would be a matter for the courts, and thus waste an inordinate amount of time/money. Not to mention that the courts aren't likelyto side against the police even in the most egregious of cases, so it's mostly a moot point.


In the UK there is a body called the independent police complaints commission, which AFAIK is responsible for deciding reasonableness before the courts get involved (I think that in some circumstances they can also deal with entire complaints without involving the courts at all, but I'm not sure how that works). Seems like a reasonable compromise solution.

Edit: didn't read Sardia's post first. Looks like that's been tried and doesn't work in the US because the entire culture around police is fucked.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:03 am UTC

oh, Quercus;
It's so true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:05 pm UTC

sardia wrote: In Chicago, we have a Civilian Office of Police Accountability(it was previously called IPRA)...except in it's entire existence, it hasn't once found an officer negligent, or at fault despite the city paying out millions year after year.


This seems like the most obvious case of bureaucratic waste ever. Sure, sure, they have an office, so they can say they did something, but it literally just exists for the convenience of those in power, not to actually do anything.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:29 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
This seems like the most obvious case of bureaucratic waste ever. Sure, sure, they have an office, so they can say they did something, but it literally just exists for the convenience of those in power, not to actually do anything.

I find it odd to characterize corruption as bureaucratic waste, like you're implying we shouldn't even have the office. Anyway, the name change was an attempt at police reform, but I'm not optimistic since the police faction had a big say in who got appointed to the board.
The board has a valuable function, they just need independence from the propolice faction, which is a problem everywhere.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
This seems like the most obvious case of bureaucratic waste ever. Sure, sure, they have an office, so they can say they did something, but it literally just exists for the convenience of those in power, not to actually do anything.

I find it odd to characterize corruption as bureaucratic waste, like you're implying we shouldn't even have the office. Anyway, the name change was an attempt at police reform, but I'm not optimistic since the police faction had a big say in who got appointed to the board.
The board has a valuable function, they just need independence from the propolice faction, which is a problem everywhere.


I mean, if it's doing nothing but clearing the police, which probably shelters them from facing justice via the courts(after all, if the board reviewed and found you did nothing wrong, that looks good in the court, right?), then I'm not sure it's producing any real value.

In theory, perhaps, a similar board without police control would be of value, but I'm not sure you can get that in Chicago. This isn't just Chicago, I agree. Baltimore certainly has no lack of problems itself.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:08 pm UTC

Bright point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th5z27ALj0I

Police getting it very right!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:22 am UTC

Yeah....
It would be nice if they were trained and held accountable to Get it Right! every time.

Driving while Black...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se4aXahuGrw

I think we should All get cameras for inside and outside our cars.
Maybe, a camera should become Standard Equipment.

(Gack!) Creeping PoliceState becomes a Runaway What?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:39 pm UTC

Police officer shoots into car full of black teenagers, killing one... and gets convicted of murder. In Texas, no less!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:44 pm UTC

addams wrote:(Gack!) Creeping PoliceState becomes a Runaway What?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1_rCrKn_E


Spoiler:
Month_old_comment.png


:P

... although in watching it again I did spot some good camerawork:

Honor_first.png


Slogan on car door in sharp focus at centre of screen. Nice one, cameraman.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:21 am UTC

The incident started when an Aurora police officer attempted to lead Seacat into an office at a Walmart, where he was suspected of shoplifting.

A suspected shoplifter who holed up in a random Greenwood Village home that was destroyed during a standoff last week fired a handgun through a garage door at a police officer and later fired several more rounds after police entered the home, an affidavit says.

Robert Jonathan Seacat, 33, is being held on suspicion of attempted first-degree murder, burglary, assault on a peace officer, multiple drug offenses and other offenses.

Seacat held police at bay for 18 hours, starting June 3, at a home in the 4200 block of South Alton Street. When he was arrested, Seacat was in possession of two loaded handguns, a shotgun and a backpack stuffed with baggies of methamphetamine, heroin and other drugs, according to an arrest warrant.

The incident started when an Aurora police officer attempted to lead Seacat into an office at a Walmart, where he was suspected of shoplifting. But Seacat ran to a Lexus in the parking lot, jumped in and fled.

He allegedly left the car at a nearby light-rail stop, fled on foot and eventually wound up at the house at about 1:40 p.m.

At one point, police entered the home and were on a lower level when Seacat, who was on an upper floor, fired four or five shots through the floor at officers below, the warrant said.

As the standoff continued into the night, police used various tactics to try to flush Seacat from the home.

By the time Seacat was taken into custody, the house sustained severe damage. Windows in the front and back were obliterated, blown out to the point of exposing the wooden frame of the house. Piles of wasted timber, wood framing, siding, exterior trim and decking were scattered around the house.

The city of Greenwood Village has offered tenant John Lech $5,000 for temporary living arrangements, it said in a news release Wednesday.

Lech was renting the home from his father, Leo, who Wednesday said that the $5,000 would pay for property damage, but it won’t cover his son’s potential housing costs.

The structure has been condemned, Leo Lech said, and it will have to be completely rebuilt, a process that could take eight to 10 months.

Area housing rentals run about $2,000 monthly, Lech said. He’s hoping the city will offer $25,000 to cover temporary housing costs and property that was destroyed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUBUBt7M3bg

Wreckage.jpg


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

That looks like rather more than a $5,000 fix-up job to me.

I feel like the city should, at minimum, put the guy up in nice accommodations while his house is being professionally fixed for him, with all costs being covered. Maybe they can take it out of the police grenade budget.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:46 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That looks like rather more than a $5,000 fix-up job to me.

I feel like the city should, at minimum, put the guy up in nice accommodations while his house is being professionally fixed for him, with all costs being covered. Maybe they can take it out of the police grenade budget.


Significantly more. The property was condemned, and a house that big goes for $300k to $500k. (A house in my neighborhood with the same floor plan as my own house, probably 1/2 to 2/3rds that size is on the market for $350k). Housing prices in the Denver Metro are only now beginning to level off... maybe.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:19 pm UTC

Jesus...how many flash bangs and bullets does it take to get a house completely condemned? It's gotta be a ridiculous pile.

Also, the strategy employed here is stupid. Shooting at someone in cover doesn't usually make them leave it. It makes them stay in it. It's why suppressive fire exists as a concept. Throw a lot of bullets someone's way so they don't stick their head up, and remain fixed in position.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:21 pm UTC

That's an old article. And I have no clue where the "$5000 would pay for property damage" part comes from since he's been suing the city for the last 3 years trying to get them to pay a proper amount to replace the house.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

A suspected shoplifter who holed up in a random Greenwood Village home that was destroyed during a standoff last week fired a handgun through a garage door at a police officer and later fired several more rounds after police entered the home, an affidavit says.

can anyone explain the sequence of events in that sentence to me?
to me, it seems like there was a home, which was destroyed last week. then, a shoplifter holed up in it. later, he fired a gun, and later still fired again.
but that can't be right, can it?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:58 pm UTC

The tense is confusing because the information that the shoplifter shot through the garage came out recently via the affidavit, but the incident itself happened last week. So the house wasn't destroyed until after he barricaded himself in it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:59 pm UTC

Willkommen im Zeitungswelt.

Headline, attention-grabbing line, sensational paragraph, start, out-of-context quote, middle, links to "related articles," end.

I think he tried to steal some stuff, got spotted, ran, drove, came to a railway crossing, ran, holed up in a house, shot through the garage door, went upstairs and shot through the floor and eventually was arrested and a search then found some drugs too, then the resident of the house came home and found a bomb site where his home used to be, and the city kind of tossed him a coin and said "Sorry about the mess" then went on with its life.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:31 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:The tense is confusing because the information that the shoplifter shot through the garage came out recently via the affidavit, but the incident itself happened last week. So the house wasn't destroyed until after he barricaded himself in it.

that makes sense. i still think they could have ordered it better, like starting with the affidavit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:14 pm UTC

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... WQUJEVDueA
CHEMNITZ, Germany — Waving German flags, with some flashing Nazi salutes, the angry mob made its way through the streets, chasing after dark-skinned bystanders as police officers, vastly outnumbered, were too afraid to intervene.

As requested by ucim, because he doesn't believe in the return of Hydra Nazis. It's police misbehaviour because there's Nazi sympathizers leaking the names and locations of the foreigners who triggered the protests.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:02 pm UTC

Thanks sardia - I must have missed this one.
sardia wrote:because he doesn't believe in the return of Hydra Nazis.
I never said I didn't believe in their return - in fact I think it may well get worse with our Supreme Tweeter. I just don't think that pre-emptively punching people is a good solution.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:25 pm UTC

Pre-emptively punching them? No. Last time they started
chasing after dark-skinned bystanders as police officers, vastly outnumbered, were too afraid to intervene
one of the people who had to do a lot of "something about them" decided that what we non-Nazis should have been using was

Image

Of course, as responsible citizens, we wouldn't want to acidentally hit any innocent civilians with a missed shot or an overpenetratingbullet, so it's important to have a good backstop behind your target.

Image

There you go. Fire towards that. That'll soak up whatever kinetic energy is left in the bullets after they've gone through the Kristallnacht reenactors.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:28 pm UTC

I didn't say you should punch them, I said you didn't believe me. To be fair, what I was claiming is terrifying. Especially since it has echoes of the Unite the Right. Cops accused of Nazi sympathizers, unprepared police, organized Nazis that inundated outnumbered others. Oh, and it's in Germany.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:59 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/world/europe/germany-neo-nazi-protests-chemnitz.amp.html&ved=2ahUKEwijjLnLjJjdAhWPEVAKHQbyDQYQyM8BMAB6BAgJEAQ&usg=AOvVaw0d3buAXmzLSFWQUJEVDueA
CHEMNITZ, Germany — Waving German flags, with some flashing Nazi salutes, the angry mob made its way through the streets, chasing after dark-skinned bystanders as police officers, vastly outnumbered, were too afraid to intervene.

As requested by ucim, because he doesn't believe in the return of Hydra Nazis. It's police misbehaviour because there's Nazi sympathizers leaking the names and locations of the foreigners who triggered the protests.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I said you didn't believe me. To be fair, what I was claiming is terrifying.
What led you to believe that I didn't believe you? And, believe you about what exactly?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:53 pm UTC

You asked me when, which can be interpreted as "prove it". Miscommunication I guess.

So yeah, Nazis are infiltrating the police and the military. And theyre much better at organizing mob assaults than expected. Do we need to go back to old days where we hang Nazis (and enablers)for their crimes?

Does stand your ground work against Nazis? Just asking for the few minorities in low power situations but somehow still have a gun. Also, does stand your ground even require a gun?
Edit: bad people still having rights is clashing with how awful Nazis are, and that they aren't a minority. Maybe just purge the Nazis out of government, military, and law enforcement?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:04 am UTC

While we are purging Nazis, could we also purge the Scientologists?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:51 am UTC

Let's wait for the Mission: Impossible films to become bad (again? YMMV).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby john_shaver » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:26 pm UTC

Hmm..too bad, it seems they have the right to take all you have. I don't know why I read that, it makes me angry. :x

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:42 pm UTC

Academic strip searched by police says refusal to cooperate was 'passive resistance'

London.

An academic arrested and strip searched after offering a boy a legal advice card has said her refusal to cooperate with police who detained her was an act of passive resistance.


It would have been interesting to see if they still detained and strip-searched her if she had identified herself. I'm inclined to think they would have, because I think that the primary "offense" she "committed" was having the temerity to offer legal advice to someone "caught in a stop-and-search sweep" (probably abusive of itself).

In any case, by my lights, strip searching her was totally unnecessary, just a little add-on punishment to remind her of her proper place in society.

Note that the police watchdog initially found nothing wrong with with her treatment, until she threatened them with a judicial review. Now they're taking another look.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:25 am UTC

Coyne wrote:It would have been interesting to see if they still detained and strip-searched her if she had identified herself. I'm inclined to think they would have, because I think that the primary "offense" she "committed" was having the temerity to offer legal advice to someone "caught in a stop-and-search sweep" (probably abusive of itself).

In any case, by my lights, strip searching her was totally unnecessary, just a little add-on punishment to remind her of her proper place in society.

Note that the police watchdog initially found nothing wrong with with her treatment, until she threatened them with a judicial review. Now they're taking another look.

This story says the officer was cleared: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... h-academic
From 30 August, is there a newer story?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:29 pm UTC

Considering this is from The Grauniad, I'm going to be a tad suspicious of the woman's side of the story. Interfering with police business is very much an issue; may not be illegal, but if the police are arresting someone and you hand the suspect something the police have every reason in the world to be suspicious of you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:10 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
An academic arrested and strip searched after offering a boy a legal advice card has said her refusal to cooperate with police who detained her was an act of passive resistance.


It would have been interesting to see if they still detained and strip-searched her if she had identified herself. I'm inclined to think they would have, because I think that the primary "offense" she "committed" was having the temerity to offer legal advice to someone "caught in a stop-and-search sweep" (probably abusive of itself).


The offense she committed was that she interfered with a legal search of a suspect. She didn't merely offer him advice; she handed him a card. It really shouldn't surprise anyone including her that handing someone an item while they're being actively searched would result in arrest.

In any case, by my lights, strip searching her was totally unnecessary, just a little add-on punishment to remind her of her proper place in society.


Whenever you're detained you're going to be searched. It's a matter of basic safety. They want to make sure that you don't have a weapon, or drugs, or anything else that might endanger yourself, other detainees, or officers. The reason they cut away her clothing is that she refused to cooperate. They're not going to just skip the search because you refuse to cooperate; they're going to hold you down and conduct the search anyway.

Note that the police watchdog initially found nothing wrong with with her treatment, until she threatened them with a judicial review. Now they're taking another look.


And the second look found nothing wrong with her treatment.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

cphite wrote:The offense she committed was that she interfered with a legal search of a suspect. She didn't merely offer him advice; she handed him a card. It really shouldn't surprise anyone including her that handing someone an item while they're being actively searched would result in arrest.


It does not surprise me that it happened, no.

But I don't think it ought to. A business card or the like isn't a security threat. And what do they need to strip search her for? In case she had more fearsome cards?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:33 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
cphite wrote:The offense she committed was that she interfered with a legal search of a suspect. She didn't merely offer him advice; she handed him a card. It really shouldn't surprise anyone including her that handing someone an item while they're being actively searched would result in arrest.


It does not surprise me that it happened, no.

But I don't think it ought to. A business card or the like isn't a security threat. And what do they need to strip search her for? In case she had more fearsome cards?

Why can't it be like the good old days, when cops could do anything they want without question? In all seriousness, police have used up any good will they have. Maybe the cop was within his power because he judged it a threat. Or maybe the cop was on a power trip, and stripped her to put her in her place . Either way, a transparent investigation is warranted.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:45 pm UTC

Her clothes had to be made transparent.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:18 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
cphite wrote:The offense she committed was that she interfered with a legal search of a suspect. She didn't merely offer him advice; she handed him a card. It really shouldn't surprise anyone including her that handing someone an item while they're being actively searched would result in arrest.


It does not surprise me that it happened, no.

But I don't think it ought to. A business card or the like isn't a security threat.


The idea is you don't want third parties exchanging anything with the person being arrested or searched. In this case it was a business card; but in other cases it could be a weapon being handed to the suspect, or evidence being handed to the third party by the suspect, etc.

Sure; once it was discovered that it was simply a business card, the officers could have let her go with a warning. But that behavior is something they want to seriously discourage, because it's the sort of thing that puts their own lives - as well as the lives of bystanders and even suspects - in danger.

The takeaway is that if you see someone being arrested or search, don't attempt to hand them something or take something from them.

And what do they need to strip search her for? In case she had more fearsome cards?


A search is a routine part of being detained - it's generally gonna happen one way or another. You don't get to politely refuse; and they don't skip it because you seem like a really nice person, or because the thing you're being detained over wasn't inherently dangerous. If you refuse to cooperate, they make you.

As a general rule, they're looking for weapons and drugs and anything else that might create a dangerous situation for you, other detainees, or corrections officers. In her case they were also looking for identification, as she refused to provide that.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:35 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
cphite wrote:The offense she committed was that she interfered with a legal search of a suspect. She didn't merely offer him advice; she handed him a card. It really shouldn't surprise anyone including her that handing someone an item while they're being actively searched would result in arrest.


It does not surprise me that it happened, no.

But I don't think it ought to. A business card or the like isn't a security threat.


The idea is you don't want third parties exchanging anything with the person being arrested or searched. In this case it was a business card; but in other cases it could be a weapon being handed to the suspect, or evidence being handed to the third party by the suspect, etc.

Sure; once it was discovered that it was simply a business card, the officers could have let her go with a warning. But that behavior is something they want to seriously discourage, because it's the sort of thing that puts their own lives - as well as the lives of bystanders and even suspects - in danger.


I think a simple statement of "we're searching the subject, please step aside" would be adequate. End of the day, it's a business card. Nobody is in danger, there is not cause to arrest or strip search her.

The takeaway is that if you see someone being arrested or search, don't attempt to hand them something or take something from them.


The takeaway is to comply with police or they will fuck up your life.

This is always the intended takeaway.

And what do they need to strip search her for? In case she had more fearsome cards?


A search is a routine part of being detained - it's generally gonna happen one way or another. You don't get to politely refuse; and they don't skip it because you seem like a really nice person, or because the thing you're being detained over wasn't inherently dangerous. If you refuse to cooperate, they make you.

As a general rule, they're looking for weapons and drugs and anything else that might create a dangerous situation for you, other detainees, or corrections officers. In her case they were also looking for identification, as she refused to provide that.


Look, not everyone being detained gets searched, and not everyone searched gets strip searched. There are escalations here that you're skimming over.

Also, in free countries, people don't have to carry ID cards. I'm not up on UK law, but a number of US states still don't require a person to provide ID to the police, and not carrying/providing ID is not legal justification for anything.

elasto
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:41 am UTC

The UK normally prides itself on minimal possible force and escalating as little as possible, with "policing by consent" being the watchword.

Arresting her seems unnecessary. Assuming she argued rationally prior to her arrest, it should have been clear it was passive resistance rather than mental illness, and therefore a strip search again seems unnecessary.

I think the panel was technically correct to conclude that the police didn't break any laws, but the police in the UK normally pride themselves on doing more than the bare minimum.

If you expect the public to not simply obey the letter of the law but its spirit, then as the authorities you have to behave in the same way. The police clearly fell short here.

@Tyndmyr: You are correct that there is no obligation to carry ID in the UK, and that failing to identify yourself should not be construed to mean anything.


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