Police misbehavior thread

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morriswalters
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:53 am UTC

@elasto
I'd like to think that it was true. And I don't mind prisons that don't produce better criminals. The criminal justice system in the US falls between bad and terrible. It doesn't produce good outcomes. I just have a very pessimistic view after watching it get worse over the years.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:40 am UTC

ucim wrote:What are the side effects? Could you give this "dollar" to everyone and get the same result (no violent crimes at all)? Didn't the Reavers do that?

It's not sufficient to be good, one must be good for the right reasons.
The point of the hypothetical isn't to explore the ramifications of a world where magic dollars somehow prevent crime; the point is only to determine how much people value punishment over peace.
ucim wrote:Actually, this sounds like somebody who actually murdered for a dollar, so it directly relates to your statement. Yeah, it's not "one dollar", it's "room and board", but close enough to show that ridiculing the idea isn't completely justified.

Jose
If someone is willing to murder you for a dollar, they're probably willing to murder you for *looking* at them funny. The dollar hypothetical incentivizes them only in the sense a sprig of parsley incentivizes me to eat steak. I was probably going to do it anyway; you just threw in a tiny bonus.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:52 am UTC

Are we talking "dollar" as in "a relatively small incentive for murder" or "literally just a single US dollar"?

Because for virtually everyone, even in the poorest places on Earth, there are far easier ways to get a single, literal dollar than murdering someone. Mugging someone, for example. But for "relatively small incentive for murder", you'd be surprised at just how little hitmen and mercenaries cost in some places.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:13 am UTC

Fine; make it a penny.

If you still want to be absurdly pedantic, make it the smallest denomination possible from the lowest value currency currently available.

The point isn't to figure out at what point people will murder for money; the point is to determine whether or not people can stomach providing some form of reward in response to murder if the reward is certain to prevent any additional murders.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:25 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
It's not sufficient to be good, one must be good for the right reasons.

Jose


Unless you're being sarcastic and i failed to spot it, why? I mean, I know I want my own reasons for behaviour to be well-justified as far as possible, but unless I have a personal relationship with them I don't think I really mind why other people behave as they do. I can't think of a way it really affects me.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:42 pm UTC

If that could work, it might make sense to give one of these magical dollars to everyone, before they even do any crime.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:01 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Fine; make it a penny.

If you still want to be absurdly pedantic, make it the smallest denomination possible from the lowest value currency currently available.

The point isn't to figure out at what point people will murder for money; the point is to determine whether or not people can stomach providing some form of reward in response to murder if the reward is certain to prevent any additional murders.


The problem I have with it is that without a disincentive to murder it relies on people's goodwill not to. Call me a cynic but I dont trust people that much. Especially in emotionally charged circumstances. Are you going to be the guy who fires the employee who hasnt ever committed a violent crime?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:13 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The problem I have with it is that without a disincentive to murder it relies on people's goodwill not to. Call me a cynic but I dont trust people that much. Especially in emotionally charged circumstances. Are you going to be the guy who fires the employee who hasnt ever committed a violent crime?
The notion that the only thing standing between us and murder is the threat of punishment isn't cynical; it's absurd.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

I'd like to introduce the Kohlberg scale. Basically, people "move up" in moral reasoning from "avoid punishment/gain advantage" (1&2) to "this is what's expected/law and order" (3&4) to "this is the social contract/these are universal human rights" (5&6). It's a bit dated, but a surprisingly large number of adults (and virtually all children) are still in the first category. So yeah, avoiding punishment is an incentive. Whether or not most people are 3+, the fact is that there are adults that are still in stage 1 or 2, assuming they do have morals in the first place.

Question: Do you include "victim fighting back" or "reprisals from family of victim" as "threat of punishment"?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

Effectively this situation exists for law enforcement. It is a reasonable assumption that an officer will kill exactly one time. With little or no penalty. How is this different than the hypothetical?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:53 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Effectively this situation exists for law enforcement. It is a reasonable assumption that an officer will kill exactly one time. With little or no penalty. How is this different than the hypothetical?

That's not how police operate. It's usually the same few officers who commit most of the offenses. They're like the Clinton era super predators, but operate with impunity.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

There are 27000 cops in NYC. Assuming an average career length of 20 years, that would imply that in NYC, cops kill 1350 people a year. Yet the number of people killed by all cops in the entire country per year is anywhere from 500 to 1200 (the exact figures don't exist, oddly; low estimate from FBI high from Teh Gradiuan). And that includes the times when it was a justifiable homicide, though we will of course disagree at the percent of which are justified versus the questionable versus "oh shit HE HAS A WALLET".

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The notion that the only thing standing between us and murder is the threat of punishment isn't cynical; it's absurd.


Well there are people who kill nowadays, premeditated, while there still is the threat of punishment. There are definitely people out there who would do so if there was in fact no punishment. Certainly a good number of people won't murder for reasons other than the law, but with the level of violence, intolerance and the like we see, I'd be very wary of giving some of those people a free pass.

Now I will grant, it may still be worthwhile in this oddly specific scenario to still do it. Removing recidivism may be a net gain compared to any added murders that would come due to lack of disincentive.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:51 pm UTC

The law doesn't just prevent murder, it also replaces it.

For instance, Chicago's high murder rate is the result of mistrust in the police and the lack of access to an effective justice system. I wish I could find that really awesome sociology paper about the movement from an honor based culture to a dignity based culture, as that helps explain a lot. Basically, the justice system replaces the whole honor based culture where people personally settle disputes with duels and so forth, but if people can't acquire justice because the legal channels don't exist, well, people acquire justice through other means.


Edit: Found the paper. Really awesome read.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

I've been impressed by the Cure Violence project's approach, which treats civilian violence as a contagious disease, and takes a public health approach rather than a punishment-based one.

The human desire to retaliate for acts of violence breeds additional acts of violence, unless the people affected are given non-violent alternatives that still meet their social and emotional needs.

Thanks for that paper, CorruptUser. I'll check it out.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:19 am UTC

That organization seems like it has a very very thoughtful approach to dealing with violence. I support it too. And as someone whom has grown up in a violent household I definitely think we need more options to stop domestic abuse. Even just more organizations like the one ObsessoMom posted. Someone to follow up and help people getting counseling or whatnot. Instead of just calling the police and having them taken away in handcuffs to jail.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:56 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:
natraj wrote:police kill a six year old child when they start a shootout in a trailer park (in otder to shoot an unarmed fleeing suspect, who they also killed) and shoot through the wall of his mobile home.

Did you read the article or watch the video?

Did you think part of the article contradicted that take?

No. However, when you hear the officer's briefing of the events, it becomes clear that this is not one of those cases where it is police are definitely in the wrong. This incident could use this as a case study in a law class on when police officers are allowed to use force.

CorruptUser wrote:If A files the false police report, how responsible is A for the damage that follows?

The 3rd video on in the article says, "The FBI says that swatters can be federally prosecuted for conspiring to obstruct justice, device fraud, and/ or conspiracy to retaliate against a witness, victim, or informant."

If you meant 'damages' as in monetary loss, which would be a civil case, then the case is going to the Supreme Court.

If B provides A a false address, is B in any way responsible for damage that happens at that address?

Either this is also going to the Supreme Court, or the Supreme Court has already ruled on this exact case.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:16 pm UTC

Supreme Court? Aren't we skipping a few steps? Circuit court, court of appeal....

Anyway, as of about an hour ago, the guy who made the call will be extradited from California to Kansas for felony prosecution there.

Los Angeles TV station ABC7 wrote:A Los Angeles man accused of making a hoax phone call that led to a deadly police shooting in Kansas is expected to be extradited to the Midwestern state for felony prosecution.

Tyler Barriss, 25, appeared briefly Wednesday morning in an L.A. courtroom, where he waived his right to an extradition hearing. He was being held without bail.

[...]

A fugitive warrant said [Tyler] Barriss was charged with making a false alarm, which covers calling police or a fire department and knowingly giving false information. It's a low-level felony in Kansas that carries a maximum of 34 months in prison, though other charges could be filed after Wichita prosecutors review the results of a police investigation.

Hmmm, this is interesting (spoilered for off-topic digression):

Spoiler:
Los Angeles TV station ABC7 wrote:In October 2015, Barriss was charged with making hoax bomb threats that resulted in the evacuation of the ABC7 building in Glendale on two separate days. He served two years in L.A. County jail after being convicted in that case.

So ABC7 may have a bit of schadenfreude while reporting this. Another ABC7 story:

Suspect in Kansas 'swatting' hoax was convicted of making bomb threats to ABC7 in 2015

Los Angeles TV station ABC7 wrote:In October 2015, Tyler Raj Barriss was charged with two felony counts of false report of a bomb to a business, one felony count of criminal threats, and one misdemeanor count of dissuading a witness from reporting a crime, according to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office.

...

"In the state of California, it is illegal to call in an emergency knowing that it is false and that is exactly what he did. The other issue in this case is that somebody died. So, it begs the question whether in the state of Kansas he will be charged with some sort of negligent homicide," attorney Lisa Houle said.

Barriss may appear in court for an arraignment hearing on the Kansas case as early as Tuesday morning.


Ken White at the legal blog Popehat wrote a piece in 2015 on what should be done (legislatively) to deal with SWATting. He considered SWATting to be attempted murder. Although the Barriss case is the first one that actually resulted in a death, there had already been several non-fatal SWATting-related shootings by then.

Ken White at Popehat wrote:Some of this bloodbath is because of poor training, reckless tactics, and a sick law enforcement culture. But some is inherent in the situation. If you send people with weapons, worried for their lives and the lives of innocents, into a high-stress situation where they don't know what's going on or who is on the scene, sooner or later people are going to die.

Swatters are indifferent to that result at best, and hope for it at worst.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:04 am UTC

Cops aren't worried for the lives of the innocent. They're worried about their own precious precious lives ONLY. I've been treated terribly by cops every time and they'd make threats like dumping me somewhere still in handcuffs because I made a bad joke about them. They Might Care when you're nice, submissive and compliant like a good lady girl thing but then they stop caring if them Invading Your Life and Being Forceful makes you talk back and they probably start thinking about how best to get rid of you. I can't imagine what they think about people with guns because I only had a knife--That I definitely wasn't using to stab anyone but me. And the cops treated me like garbage.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:20 am UTC

Just to share my own counter-anecdote, after many years of thinking poorly of the cops after being routinely (like, almost daily) harassed by traffic cops for essentially driving after dark in a town where that just isn't done:

I have some mental health issues that sometimes in moments of extreme stress cause me to scream violently and bang on things and sometimes to hurt myself. On a couple of occasions, neighbors have been afraid that someone was being murdered in my house, and called the cops. The first time, I thought "oh fuck cops are here, I'm in trouble". But they were super nice to me and just wanted to make sure I was okay, and said not to worry about the disturbance (as I was apologizing for it), it's no trouble to them and they enjoy getting to meet the good people of their community (in more or less those exact words, spoken very sincerely). They also complimented the decor inside my trailer, and then left without a citation or anything and wished me a good day. The few other times they had to come by, they already knew what was going on and said it was basically perfunctory, they got a call and have to come make sure I'm okay and not killing myself or something.

I'm definitely not saying this to diminish what Ginger or anyone else has gone through, and those kinds of experiences she describes are what I imagine by default that most run-ins with the cops would be like. I was almost literally speechless and taken aback with how unbelievably gentle and caring these cops were. I just feel like some anecdotes like that are worth sharing as well, since apparently (contrary to my expectations) the cops aren't all bad.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:48 am UTC

Pfhorrest's story inspired me. I had a nice cop drag me away once. He didn't make me wear handcuffs and talked about being a caregiver to cray-cray girls like me. I guess that's how he protects the community? But he Still Told Bad Bad Little G that she can't protest her incarceration and technically had no rights for at least three days after being committed. I stand by my position that most cops are evil-evil dominance obsessed pigs. But don't let them hear that because even the nice ones will still take you to where you don't wanna go against your will and tell you to like it. At least he tried to explain what cops do to me though.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:17 pm UTC

i, too, have had interactions with police where they did their jobs and did not murder me. should we have a thread for tracking that? this is not that thread.

note that i am not trying to mock y'all bc tone is a hard text thing.

just, like, i don't think that anyone who argues that all cops are bastards means that every individual cop is personally committing these violent brutal acts, but that each and every cop is complicit in upholding a terrible system even when they do their jobs perfectly.

i have met cops who were perfectly nice to me and didn't murder me at all, and asked me (super ~*politely and kindly*~!) if they wanted me to arrest the homeless person who was talking to me.

i have met cops who were perfectly nice to me and didn't murder me at all, although they did joke (haha!) about how, you know, they COULD murder me if i was rude to them because, you know, Cop, haha! hilarious, anyway what am i doing this weekend how about a drink?

i have met cops who were perfectly nice to me and didn't murder me at all, but holy carp if you heard the things they said about my patients (who subsequently didn't want treatment, for fear we would mistreat them like the cops JUST HAD or simply for fear we were cops.)

i honestly think it does active harm trying to promote the idea of Good Cops especially as a tool in emotional crisis - i understand that you had a good experience when the cops did your wellness check, xxx i am genuinely glad for that. but please understand that the overwhelming majority of people killed by police are not JUST black and brown people -- they are also people with mental illness/in emotional crisis. calling the cops for a wellness check/for someone in emotional crisis is often going to do more harm than good and puts that person's life in serious riskrisk. i have literally watched my patients harmed by police when we could have deescalated the situation, most likely, but many police do.not.even.try. i am not saying that many police will shoot them first don't get me wrong but they'll just come in, manhandle the person into submission regardless of their level of compliance/distress (which can lead to harm, obv.) which does not help people who are stressed and upset and may be in all kinds of emotional crisis already.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
ucim wrote:It's not sufficient to be good, one must be good for the right reasons.
Unless you're being sarcastic and i failed to spot it, why? I mean, I know I want my own reasons for behaviour to be well-justified as far as possible, but unless I have a personal relationship with them I don't think I really mind why other people behave as they do. I can't think of a way it really affects me.
There are several parts to this, but before addressing them, I'd like to rephrase (and answer) the underlying original question... which to me is "if there were a reasonable way to get people to never murder again, without punishing them, would you be in favor of it?" to which I would answer Yes, probably. Maybe. But this magical dollar isn't it.

First off, being magic it undermines people's autonomy. I think it's important that I (for one) have autonomy (what is often called "free will") and to do good because I choose to do it. The ability to say "yes" is meaningless without the ability to say "no". I do not want a pill, potion, or magical dollar to take over my psyche and ensure that I conform to the norms of whoever is giving these things out. And sauce for the goose... everyone else should have that same right. I don't want to live in a world of zombies - of false people.

It also needs to be clear to people why something is good or bad. Not just murder, but all sorts of other stuff. (To dodge the claim of moving the goalposts, I'll presume that this magical dollar also addresses other forms of evil, even though that's explicitly not stated.) And not just in the practical sense of "should I refrain?" but also in the senses of "how should I judge?" and "how should I use my observations of others to guide myself?" This is what it means to be a whole person. This is what it means to be human.

Punishment tells others that the punished action is wrong. For that reason it probably is still necessary.

Rehabilitation doesn't take that away, but magical dollars do.

Rehabilitation is much preferred over punishment. The problem with rehabilitation is that it requires people to care enough about other people who have hurt them, and it's so much easier to just put them away, and live with other people who have not hurt them.

So, let me turn the question around. I'm aware that punishment costs money; crime does too. But what if there were a way that could actually rehabilitate people, leaving them whole and human. How much would you be willing to take out of your own pocket to do this for the next person convicted of murder?

Because while vengeance may be part of the reason for the system we have now, convenience is the other.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

That actually all makes sense. I misinterpreted it as a variant of the old "atheists/Christians/Jews/Hindus etc. etc. aren't properly good because their reasons for being good aren't the right ones". That argument particularly annoys me, which is why the tone of my reply was perhaps overly pointed.

I'm not entirely in agreement with your points, mainly because I'm not certain we have all that much free will in the first place (though to live a reasonable life we probably have to act as if we do), nor do I believe that most people (including myself) have clarity about their real reasons for acting most of the time (rather than a post-hoc rationalisation). In other words, I think it's at least possible that we don't actually have the things which the magical dollar threatens to take away.

I'm entirely in agreement with your points on rehabilitation though. In answer to your question, at least 5% of my taxable income beyond what is already taken in taxes* and substantially more if I was rich enough to still maintain a good quality of life in spite of that. A good rehabilitative justice system would be one of the best things that could happen to society and I'd be willing to pay as much as I could reasonably afford to get it.

*Admittedly this is nothing at all right now, but then at the moment I can't afford to contribute financially to any of the causes I really care about.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

I think the magic dollar wasn't meant to imply any kind of mind-controlling magic, but just a "the details don't matter" kind of "magic". I imagine a conversation like this:

A: "So say it was proven that greatly increased welfare programs especially targeted at those likely to commit crimes would lead to a 99% reduction in crime. Would you be in favor of that?"

B: "I don't want to spend that kind of money."

A: "Well imagine that it only cost a dollar per person, the point here is to ask if you'd be okay with nice things happening to criminals if it makes them stop committing crimes."

B: "How are you going to fund that kind of welfare at a dollar per person!?"

A: "I don't know, magic, that's not the point. Forget about the cost to you. Someone is offering to do nice things for criminals in order to make them less likely to commit crimes. Are you okay with that or not?"

And apparently most of the B's surveyed said "Fuck no I'm not! Criminals need to suffer, not be rewarded!"

(This is something I've been expecting to come up over in my Applications of Omnipotence forum game thread. You're using your omnipotence to personally offer every single person in the world basically their own custom-tailored heaven dimension. But, even the criminals? People in jail? Won't a lot of other people have a problem with that? Even if you're taking away all the criminals, you're taking them to somewhere really super nice. Everyone else gets their own equally super nice place, but are they going to be okay with you offering that same thing to baby torturing incest rape-murderers?)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:19 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I think the magic dollar wasn't meant to imply any kind of mind-controlling magic, but just a "the details don't matter" kind of "magic".
Right. I use the dollar only to indicate the sum is trivial both to the person receiving it and the person expending it.

I get what ucim is saying, and I'm opposed to mind control; just imagine the expenditure somehow accomplishes the same thing as other countries' extensive rehab programs.

That being said, it's just a silly hypothetical -- and like all silly hypotheticals, it doesn't survive any significant amount of scrutiny. The point is that America is obsessed with punishment over results.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:12 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:I think the magic dollar wasn't meant to imply any kind of mind-controlling magic, but just a "the details don't matter" kind of "magic".
Right. I use the dollar only to indicate the sum is trivial both to the person receiving it and the person expending it.

I get what ucim is saying, and I'm opposed to mind control; just imagine the expenditure somehow accomplishes the same thing as other countries' extensive rehab programs.

That being said, it's just a silly hypothetical -- and like all silly hypotheticals, it doesn't survive any significant amount of scrutiny. The point is that America is obsessed with punishment over results.

You got a good couple pages of discussion out of it, at least.

It's very synonymous with the War on Drugs. Speaking of, how about that chief law enforcement officer, eh? (I think it's already been posted about in the Trump thread)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:13 am UTC

Mind control is precisely the point. To change people you need to rewrite them. And we can't do that. You want to take a person and rewrite their personality in such a way that the never feel the need to do murder again. And even if you could, what do you do when the reality the produced them rewrites them again? Children are blank slates. We make them criminals. If you can't fix that then how in the fuck do roll back the clock in rehabilitation? It's late, I'm in a funk, and I apologize if I offended anyone.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:41 am UTC

I think the suggested mechanism was not to change the people per se, but to change the inputs to the people that result in murderous outputs. Like you say, we all start out blank slates; or at the least, we all start out according to very similar basic templates. A long series of inputs eventually puts some of us into such a state that further inputs result in murder as an output. A first step would be to take people already in that state and block the inputs that result in murder outputs; that is to say, take people out of the contexts that drive them to crime. That's what I thought we were mostly talking about. E.g. feed people so that they stop stealing for food, etc. Rehabilitation goes a long step past that (a good one, but still): feeding them further inputs to get them back to the state where they're no less likely to murder than the rest of us.

As for how to keep them from being put right back into such a murder-happy state by life again? Once more, stop the inputs that put people into such a state.

Generally, most of all of this boils down to doing various nice things for people. That tend not to prompt people to crime itself, and to put (or keep them) them in a state where fewer other things prompt them to crime too.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:48 am UTC

I think it's worth explicitly noting that Hippo's hypothetical is not about the criminal, but about the mindset of those who would stand in judgement.

What the magic dollar does to the criminal's mind is not the point. It is only a magic dollar because it is a cheap and effective method for reducing crime that improves the criminal's life to even the most marginal degree.

The fact that people by-in-large have a problem with giving the magic dollar to the criminal, despite it's effectiveness in reducing crime, is the point. That punishment for criminal behavior is more attractive than rehabilitation, it is more politically advantageous to spend thousands to make the criminal worse off, then to spend a lesser amount reducing crime if reducing crime means the criminal gets something out of it.

Again, Hippo's hypothetical does not examine the criminal or the crime, but the mindset of the public and the systems that stand in judgement and pass sentences.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:To change people you need to rewrite them. And we can't do that.
You can't rewrite them, but as Pfhorrest says, you can help them to rewrite themselves. People rewrite themselves every day, a little at a time. And it's more than "look at this: bad leads to bad. Now look at this...". It may be necessary, but it's not sufficient. Likewise, just being nice to them is also not sufficient. People are complicated.

We do a disservice to ourselves and to society when we think of it as an either/or.

Dauric wrote:The fact that people by-in-large have a problem with giving the magic dollar to the criminal, despite it's effectiveness in reducing crime, is the point.
But I also think that thinking it's driven by revenge is the wrong takeaway.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:03 am UTC

Yes, exactly.

Ask people would they rather:
pay a lot to hurt criminals while deterring crime only a little?
or
pay only a little to help criminals while deterring crime a lot?

And (apparently) people choose the former over the latter, even though the cost to nominal benefit (deterrence) ratio is less. Showing that that nominal benefit isn't really what people are willing to pay for: the real product they're buying is petty vengeance, because the amount they're willing to pay is proportional to the pain inflicted on criminals, regardless of its deterrence of crime.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:25 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:...the real product they're buying is petty vengeance...
No, the real product they are paying for is simplicity. Like FPTP voting, punishment for crime is easy to understand. That's what people want. No complicated moral questions, no grey areas, no hashing out what the best goals for society are... just a simple rule. You hurt me, I hurt you.

Thinking it's for vengance's sake is wrong. It's for simplicity's sake.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:20 am UTC

LOL Magic Mind Control Monies be turning G on right meow. Anyways the current rehabilitation system is not set up to actually help criminals. At best they treat you like a child addicted to cray-cray thoughts that must be punished with jail/prison/mental hospitals and medications/lectures from therapists and service workers/lectures from your friendly cops or lawyers dealing with you about how evil you are, taking away transgender women's makeups and girly stuffs and sticking them in MALE PRISONS if they have the wrong parts. It's not gonna make me wanna stop committing crimes. It's gonna make me feel like they created crimes to commit against me. I definitely feel stripped of my womanhood every time I deal with law enforcement because they're not at all interested in helping criminals rehabilitate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:10 am UTC

Ginger wrote:Anyways the current rehabilitation system is not set up to actually help criminals.

There is, as far as I can tell, no system of rehabilitation in the US. Just systems of punishment, some of which are disguised as systems of rehabilitation. For genuine rehabilitation you have to look to places like Norway

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:43 am UTC

I've mostly dealt with the mental health rehabilitation system and never actually even went to jail. But it's still dehumanizing and rarely rehabilitates and the cops still get called on you. Unless you think and believe plying young women and men with Ativan until they're drooling and under hypnosis/control counts as rehabilitation. So that Norway "Has no Life Sentence or Death Penalty" and treats its prisoners like grownups is actually truly truly refreshing. Their island seems about as minimal of a punishment as you could get. I think I like-like Norway now. <3

The cops used to get called on me all the time though. And they always, always threaten you with prosecution/jail time. "If I have to come back Zuri Chloe Zoey you are goin' to freakin' Jail." And that one time when the owners of Allegiance House in Chewelah called the cops on me because I was um... looking at their garbage in their garbage bin? And the cop almost took me away but settled for giving me a lecture like my stepfather to his stepdaughter instead.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:12 pm UTC

Be careful when comparing crime and incarceration rates between countries. While Sweden does indeed have a lower crime and incarceration rate, part of the reason for the low incarceration rate is that house arrest and ankle bracelets are exceedingly common and don't get added in to the rates. Which is a good thing, IMHO, and should be done more often in the US for petty crimes like tagging a wall and so forth, preventing kids from learning from hardened criminals in prison.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:51 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Be careful when comparing crime and incarceration rates between countries. While Sweden does indeed have a lower crime and incarceration rate, part of the reason for the low incarceration rate is that house arrest and ankle bracelets are exceedingly common and don't get added in to the rates. Which is a good thing, IMHO, and should be done more often in the US for petty crimes like tagging a wall and so forth, preventing kids from learning from hardened criminals in prison.

You can't extract incredibly cheap labor out of people under house arrest.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

If house arrest doesn't get counted in the US or in Sweden as incarceration, then why do we need to be careful about the comparison? It shows how many more people are in jail or prison in the US, which it seems is exactly what the comparison is supposed to do.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:24 pm UTC

idonno wrote:You can't extract incredibly cheap labor out of people under house arrest.

Most of those people under house arrest are still allowed to work, making re-integration a non-issue...


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