Police misbehavior thread

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8211
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed May 30, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

It was not anti-Republican, it was anti-Trump.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4549
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed May 30, 2018 4:59 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I don't disagree on that, I'm saying I don't think the link above covers everything we're talking about. Regardless, we're waaaay off-track here. I don't even think that JT needs to be prosecuted here. But it doesn't change the experience of JJ throughout all of this. That she's a champ and took it in stride is remarkable, but as natraj said - not unusual for black women.


Oh, yes, I absolutely agree that pretty much a textbook case of white/male privilege, and I don't feel that anybody involved except Jackson handled it particularly well. I just disagree on the narrow point that it constitutes sexual assault if it was indeed accidental, which all of the evidence seems to indicate is the case. (My skim of the Wikipedia article on this topic also notes that this happened during an election year when the War on Iraq was just starting to turn against Bush, and making a big deal out of this may have been a deliberate tactic to divert attention away from that).

Um also... this is the Police Misbehaviour Thread, right? Not sure what all of the Trump talk here is for.

cphite
Posts: 1275
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Wed May 30, 2018 5:01 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Reinvigorating the coal industry was an important part of Trump's support that had nothing to do with race. It's stupid for economic reasons (Natural Gas production has been steadily getting more economic than coal extraction for about a decade now), but it's an issue that swayed a lot of voters in regions historically- and heavily-invested in coal mining. Trump also made a lot of noise in his campaign about bringing manufacturing back to the U.S., again stupid for economic reasons (and his protectionism of U.S. steel and aluminum has been having adverse effects on the companies that actually manufacture consumer goods in the U.S.), but in itself is not a race issue.

When it comes to political issues and electoral victories, personal prosperity has historically swamped any other issue.


This.

For a lot of the people who lived in these areas, they saw the choice as coming down to being able to have a home and put food on the table with a racist shit-bag in the White House; or not being able to have a home and put food on the table, but at least the racist shit-bag isn't there. When it comes to stuff like having a home, paying the bills, and being able to eat, the racist shit-bag thing takes a back seat real quick.

I grew up in a coal mining town... the coal mines were everything. The last one closed about 25 years ago and the town still hasn't fully recovered. It doesn't just hit the families working the mines; it hits literally every type of business in the area. There are a lot of places like that across the country; and there are lot of places that similarly rely on manufacturing. When you have one party promising to revive the thing your entire town depends on; and the other party practically gloating over the fact that it's dying and promising to keep it dead - the choice is pretty clear, no matter who the candidates are.

A whole lot of people decided to vote for the guy who they believed - rightly or not - would put them in a better position to keep their kids fed, the lights on, and a roof over their head.

Trump has proven himself to be a racist shitbag to be sure, but to tar all Trump supporters as racists is to miss important other factors that contributed to his win and to ignore the failures of the Democratic party to be able to address economic issues in a convincing way for large segments of the population. To unseat Republicans in upcoming elections it's not enough to point out how horrible they are as people (which at this point is an exercise in diminishing returns), but the Democrats will have to get ahead of the Republican claims that they bring capitalist prosperity. Unfortunately for this year's midterm elections in this regard last year's tax reform package has reduced taxes for pretty much everyone, and the inevitable price to pay for those tax reductions probably won't hit home in the voter's pocketbook for at least another year or two.


In all seriousness, if the Democratic party doesn't find some way to move on past identity politics and actually start offering real, tangible ideas on the issues that people care about - which basically boil down to being able to support themselves and their families - they're going to have a really hard time getting back into power. Pointing out how terrible your opponents are - even when it's true - by itself isn't enough to sway people who are looking for somebody to actually do something to better their lives.

Trump is a racist shit-bag, yes. The GOP has a pretty serious infestation of racist shit-bags right now. But if things keep going as they're going, and both sides keep campaigning as they are - Trump is going to be elected again, and the GOP will maintain a majority - albeit a slimmer one - in the legislature. It's already happening... Trumps approval ratings are tracking upward, and the GOP is starting to close the gap in the house and senate polling.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9989
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed May 30, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

Good Grief!
Get back to the people in your little Coal Mining Town.

Tell them Technology took the underground jobs.
And; Good Riddance! Those jobs sucked!

Mrs. Clinton said she would work toward training and employment in Green Jobs.
Much better jobs.

Instead of going down in dangerous holes, people can go up on roofs to install new roofs and panels.
There are a great many Jobs she could and would have encouraged. Coal is a Bad Banner. Tell them!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11340
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed May 30, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

addams wrote:Good Grief!
Get back to the people in your little Coal Mining Town.

Tell them Technology took the underground jobs.
And; Good Riddance! Those jobs sucked!


That is probably not going to win you many friends with the unemployed. To them, those jobs represent the good times. Yes, it may be that your employment prospects are better than theirs, but reminding of them of that fact isn't a solution, and mostly just rubs salt in the wounds.

Mrs. Clinton said she would work toward training and employment in Green Jobs.
Much better jobs.

Instead of going down in dangerous holes, people can go up on roofs to install new roofs and panels.
There are a great many Jobs she could and would have encouraged. Coal is a Bad Banner. Tell them!


There's no particular reason why green jobs ought to be concentrated where coal mining jobs used to. In fact, it's pretty counter-intuitive. Rooftop solar installers will mostly work in places with many roofs. Coal mines are mostly rural.

The wealth of jobs in the city does little to comfort the rural worker with no jobs in his town. He may not be thrilled with the idea of taking a government handout for training for an entirely new job that he needs to start at the bottom of, move to a new area to attempt, and leaving behind family homes, heritage, etc.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, you are advocating that she do exactly what she did, and which turned out to be wildly unpopular.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed May 30, 2018 7:45 pm UTC

Once again, whether or not a statement will win you friends has no bearing on its truth.

Trump voters are racist.

Coal jobs are never coming back.

The "animals" statement was in no way directly linked or limited just to gang members, that's just the bullshit apologists tell themselves to excuse a racist and dangerous instance of dehumanization which looks just like many other preludes to attempted genocides throughout history.

And all cops are bastards.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed May 30, 2018 7:48 pm UTC

(And even if it was just about MS 13, it's common practice for ICE to allege gang connections in order to convince judges to deny bail, whether or not they actually have any evidence. MS 13 are animals, every Latino we want to detain and deport is MS 13, therefore they are also animals.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1268
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Wed May 30, 2018 8:17 pm UTC

Re: Coal Jobs (spoilered because we're getting off-topic now)
Spoiler:
I hate to break it to all of those people living in these previous-coal towns, but those jobs aren't returning, because the world and technology has moved on. It sucks, but when your entire town was built on an industry that has left, it's time to leave before it becomes a ghost town. They will need to train for another field (perhaps a tangentially related one), and likely move somewhere else. There are many of these ghost towns in California, which were at one point gold prospecting towns. Once the utility of a town dries up, there's no saving it, unless someone finds some other nitch to fill in that geographic location.

I understand this is a hard truth, and not politically expedite to point out, but too bad. All of those fools who trusted that Don the con would magically bring these jobs back are just that, fools.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 30, 2018 9:23 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:Re: Coal Jobs (spoilered because we're getting off-topic now)
Spoiler:
I hate to break it to all of those people living in these previous-coal towns, but those jobs aren't returning, because the world and technology has moved on. It sucks, but when your entire town was built on an industry that has left, it's time to leave before it becomes a ghost town. They will need to train for another field (perhaps a tangentially related one), and likely move somewhere else. There are many of these ghost towns in California, which were at one point gold prospecting towns. Once the utility of a town dries up, there's no saving it, unless someone finds some other nitch to fill in that geographic location.

I understand this is a hard truth, and not politically expedite to point out, but too bad. All of those fools who trusted that Don the con would magically bring these jobs back are just that, fools.


Spoiler:
The same can be said for Detroit. Detroit was initially built around national/international trade, being on the route created by the Erie Canal.
Then the railroad happened making the Erie Canal obsolete, but by then Detroit had heavy industry. But eventually the heavy industry all but left due to legacy costs (i.e., offering ridiculously great benefits in lieu of salary but never setting aside funds for those benefits, taking a massive bonus for keeping costs down, retiring before it all goes to shit and the company needs multiple bailouts). So there's no point for Detroit to continue to exist beyond inertia.

cphite
Posts: 1275
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Wed May 30, 2018 9:41 pm UTC

addams wrote:Good Grief!
Get back to the people in your little Coal Mining Town.

Tell them Technology took the underground jobs.
And; Good Riddance! Those jobs sucked!


Some of them suck, yeah - but they were jobs. They put food on the table. And to the surprise of absolutely nobody, telling people who're struggling just to make ends meet that their old job sucked anyway wasn't a winning campaign message.

Mrs. Clinton said she would work toward training and employment in Green Jobs.
Much better jobs.


Except, they're not better jobs.

The thing about Green jobs is that they tend to be fairly short lived. Putting up solar panels or wind farms takes some manpower in the very beginning, but once they're up and running, they require very small crews to maintain them. So the notion that you're going to replace the jobs provided by a coal mine with wind and solar jobs is absurd; it's just never going to happen.

Training is all well and good; but the reality is that you're taking folks who've been working in coal for decades, training them in something completely new, and then asking them to essentially start over. That means less pay, less benefits; and that's even if we assume that it's not short term Green jobs. For just about any sort of job, starting at the bottom is going to be a pretty huge setback.

And that's why going to those areas and promising to work toward training and employment rang completely hollow in those regions - it was an empty promise, and everyone knew it.

Campaigning is about giving people a reason to vote for you. Trump gave them a reason; he offered them hope (even if it turn out to be an empty one) that an industry they depend on would be able to continue for at least a little while. Clinton gave them hand-wavy promises that something else would come along, probably, and whatever it was would be better, maybe.

Instead of going down in dangerous holes, people can go up on roofs to install new roofs and panels.


Installing panels on a roof is a one-day job... so in a typical coal town, you're talking about maybe 1000 work days total - which means that you could keep maybe a handful of guys employed for a couple of years. And that's assuming you're gonna put panels on every roof - which is unlikely since panels are expensive and everyone is unemployed.

Same thing is true for windmills... a whole lot of small towns have put up windmills over the past few years... typically involves a crew to build the parts, a smaller crew to actually put them up; and those jobs last maybe a year or two. After that, you've got a tiny crew to do maintenance. My own town did that - put up a whole slew of windmills several years ago. Made for a couple dozen jobs over two or three years; now they have one guy who does maintenance. Not exactly a bonanza of work opportunity.

There are a great many Jobs she could and would have encouraged. Coal is a Bad Banner. Tell them!


Encouragement doesn't put food on the table.

It's all well and good that Clinton wanted to encourage the creation of better jobs... but the thing is, even if folks believed that she would do that, or could do that, the reality is people need real jobs now; not hypothetical jobs that might come along someday.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Wed May 30, 2018 9:59 pm UTC

Nonexistent jobs that are gone and never, ever coming back don't put food on the table, either.

The way to help people who have lost and will continue to lose jobs to machines is well to the left of anything either major candidate was proposing in 2016, and the majority of Trump voters weren't actually the poor downtrodden coal miners everyone likes to imagine in any case. (Even if they were, how come those poor unemployed people deserve to have their concerns taken seriously, while everyone else without a job is just a lazy leach? Oh yeah, it's because the popular image of coal miners is so very white.)

In any case the economy discussion is off-topic but the Trump voters are racist part is less so, since the resurgence of open anti-(brown)-immigrant sentiment is what's allowed ICE and CBP to get even worse than they had been.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9989
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed May 30, 2018 10:21 pm UTC

Yep.
This is really frightening.
We are called less than human by the Man at the Top.

He openly encouraged violence and cruelty from Police.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoqnmrWSrs

He seems to accuse others of what he does or wants to do.
He is encouraging Police to Break the Law. (ass-hat...)

He is a criminal.
Yet; He's human.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 31, 2018 12:47 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:In any case the economy discussion is off-topic but the Trump voters are racist part is less so, since the resurgence of open anti-(brown)-immigrant sentiment is what's allowed ICE and CBP to get even worse than they had been.


Except it's mostly an ad homonym against Trump's supporters meant to end any discussion as to any legitimate concerns they may have had, to eliminate any critical examination among the Democratic party as to just why they foisted an incredibly terrible candidate upon the public, and a suicidal strategy considering that simply ignoring the actual concerns of half the country (by area that is) is only going to prevent the US from giving up its Cheetos addiction for another 4 years.

Hillary was a terrible candidate. Better than her opponent, but that's a very low bar. Syria and Libya were the result of her actions as Secretary of State. Sure, she wasn't the only person at play, but then again, the same could be said about Bush and Iraq. She won't own up to those actions, but the Democratic party needs to own up to her. And they won't as long as enough of them are willing to just blame the Russians or racism instead of actually doing some soul searching.



Oh well, here's hoping for President Elizabeth Warren 2020.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 31, 2018 3:54 am UTC

It's not meant to do anything but state a true fact.

If the fact that Trump voters are racist makes the Dems think they aren't and that they need to do nothing more than point out how shitty Trump is to win the next election, then it's true they will probably lose. But that has fuckall to do with what I mean by pointing it out.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 31, 2018 1:48 pm UTC

If you want to say that on average, Trump voters are more likely to be racist than Democrats, fine.

If you are going to argue that racism is a spectrum and thus everyone is to some degree racist, then the term loses all meaning as a descriptor.

If you are going to claim that the majority of Trump voters, let alone the overwhelming majority or every last one? Citation needed.

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6233
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu May 31, 2018 2:01 pm UTC

Trump ran on racism. He gained traction after his racist announcement speech. He was explicitly racist during the campaign. The Republican party has been focusing on suppressing the votes of minorities. The Republican voters are completely unconcerned about all of this, or the police shooting unarmed black people. So what do they have to say about racism? That anti-white racism is the real problem, and that they want to go back to the good ol' days where they didn't have to watch what they say, as they praise Trump for "telling it like it is".

Yes, every Trump voter is pretty fucking racist. I'm not sure how much more racist you can get, but at this point in time just voting for the Republican party means you don't care about the rights or lives of minorities, and most seem to see rights for minorities as being in opposition to their way of life.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu May 31, 2018 2:09 pm UTC

A lot of the last few pages need moving into the Trump Candidacy or Neo-Nazi Ned threads, because they're more on-topic there. Here's the Neo-Nazi Ned thread:
Sableagle wrote:You know The Button? There's a knock on the door, you answer it, a man in a suit presents you a box with a button on it and tells you that if you push it you'll get $1,000,000 and someone you've never met will die. That button. If you and your spouse answer the door together and he tells you you'll get $1,000,000 and someone neither of you has ever met will die, that's a little more reassuring for people into spotting technicalities. It's supposed to be a morality and consequences thing, I think, but I reckon a lot of people would smack that button right there and then, and some would ask whether it would do it again before pushing it a second time while others would just keep at it. I'd probably treat it like yellow notes in the guitar line for Eye of the Tiger (on the right here)* and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If the man in the suit explained that The Button had a 91% chance of killing one of the poorest 10% of the people in your country 1% for each other decile and you, knowing you were in the 3rd decile, pushed it anyway, that's not necessarily racist. If he said it was 95.5% and 0.5% and that the poorest 10% are 90% black and you went: "This thing kills n*****s? Why didn't you say that first? You just set that thing down on that table there, son. Honey, fetch my drumsticks!" Yeah, THAT would be racist. Supporting a policy that turns your children's future from "utterly hopeless" to "potentially decent with enough hard work" at the expense of total strangers, though, is just natural. Viewing Jews / Muslims / Blacks / Hispanics / Natives as the weeds in your vegetable patch? That's racist. Thinking your years of hard work shouldn't have come to nothing isn't.

* then pay people to clear eucalyptus off Madeira, giant hogweed off Britain, cane toads from Australia and so on, to clean hospitals (every £10 I spend paying someone to do that is £100 the NHS doesn't have to spend on treating nosocomial infections), to pick up litter all over our national parks, to make and give out bat-boxes and bird-boxes and so on, sponsor square kilometres of rainforest, buy a desolate street in Middlesbrough or Doncaster, do it up really nicely and let Refuge rent those houses from me for £1 a month plus repair costs, give every child in the whole of Cambodia a brand-new mosquito net each, hire private investigators to put together dossiers on MPs, build a solar farm and desalination plant on the coast of Syria, maybe find a large area of land nobody's ruined yet and turn it into a year-round steampunk LARP site with resident NPCs, ...
I agree with Thesh here:
... at this point in time just voting for the Republican party means you don't care about the rights or lives of minorities,
... but for the sake of pedantry I acknowledge those who occupy the sliver on the Venn diagram where nobody cares about anyone else's rights or lives at all.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11340
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 31, 2018 2:13 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Um also... this is the Police Misbehaviour Thread, right? Not sure what all of the Trump talk here is for.


Yeah, maybe the police have been good lately, and nobody has news? I dunno. Anyways, I'll spoiler the economy talk in the interests of keeping things on topic.

Spoiler:
gmalivuk wrote:Once again, whether or not a statement will win you friends has no bearing on its truth.

Trump voters are racist.

Coal jobs are never coming back.


Coal jobs have gone up under Trump. Not amazingly so, and some of these towns are still comparatively rough, but progress is progress. Politifact rates it as "In the Works".

Which is a far cry from "never coming back".

If we're looking at actions directly attributable to Trump, it's mostly rollback of environmental regulations that has resulted in an uptick in coal investment. There's definitely tradeoffs there, but the claimed impossibility is simply the Democratic platform prioritizing environmental priorities over coal jobs.


As for all cops being bastards, ehhh...look, I'll happily agree that the profession as a whole has problems, including a number of systemic issues, but that's some heavy over-generalization. Plenty of police do fine jobs, even in the US. If you're talking someone like Sherriff Arpaio, well, yeah. Dude's a power-happy bastard. Many, however, have more connection to the community and try to do a decent job. There's no point painting everyone in a profession as a dick.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8211
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu May 31, 2018 2:17 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Mrs. Clinton said she would work toward training and employment in Green Jobs.
Much better jobs.


Except, they're not better jobs.

The thing about Green jobs is that they tend to be fairly short lived.

The coal industry employed in 2014 less than 80,000 people.
Green energy jobs employ more than 800,000.
Clamoring about the loss of coal jobs is unsubstantiated populism. It really, truly, sucks when towns lose their livelihoods in this way, but this has been happening for a century, and they're in the same danger as any factory town.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9989
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu May 31, 2018 2:18 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Oh well, here's hoping for President Elizabeth Warren 2020.
Fox News has already begun to poison the well for Warren.
I spoke her name in the presence of a Fox viewer.
She knows one thing about Warren. She hates her.

Why?
Hannity told his viewers so.
He is worth his 22 million wages of the sin of lies to his owners.

To be on the Bad Side of that Media Machine must be a horrible experience.

Well done, Zohar.
Thank you for that.

Yes.
Some cops are jerks.

The last one I had contact with pulled on my heart strings.
He was so young and tender looking.

He told me people yell and cuss at him.
Poor Baby.
Last edited by addams on Thu May 31, 2018 2:23 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 31, 2018 2:21 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump ran on racism.

True

He gained traction after his racist announcement speech.

Mostly true

He was explicitly racist during the campaign.

True

The Republican party has been focusing on suppressing the votes of minorities.

Somewhat true; they are focused on suppressing the votes of Democrats.

The Republican voters are completely unconcerned about all of this

False. Many Republicans are concerned about this. The "completely" is the problem in this sentence. Even "mostly" is stretching it.

or the police shooting unarmed black people

False. Quite a few Republicans are indeed concerned with police brutality.




I'm not sure how much more racist you can get

It's a very low bar; he's a terrible, terrible creature. To be worse he'd have to be calling for the end of interracial marriage, demanding a special tax, 'voluntary' ethnic cleansing such as "Back to Africa" or similar, racial caps in colleges & hirings, etc. So basically, he's better than David Dukes.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 31, 2018 3:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If you are going to argue that racism is a spectrum and thus everyone is to some degree racist, then the term loses all meaning as a descriptor.

"____ is a spectrum and everyone is to some degree ____" is true of literally the majority of descriptors, and they all continue to have meaning just fine.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 31, 2018 3:21 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:If you are going to argue that racism is a spectrum and thus everyone is to some degree racist, then the term loses all meaning as a descriptor.

"____ is a spectrum and everyone is to some degree ____" is true of literally the majority of descriptors, and they all continue to have meaning just fine.


If we were to define "homosexuality" as anyone above a 0 on the Kinsey scale that'd mean we could say virtually all of Trump's supporters were gay, but I don't think you would agree that Trump won because of the gay vote.

Likewise, every last one of us has unconscious biases of some form, but if we were to define racism as anyone with any sort of unconscious bias pertaining to race, well, almost all humans are racist, and thus saying "all Trump voters are racist" has about as much meaning as saying "all Trump voters have stinky farts".

User avatar
Liri
Healthy non-floating pooper reporting for doodie.
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:11 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Thu May 31, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

I'm gonna refer to gmal's signature.

Point being though, one is more than ""technically"" racist if they vote for racist policies promoted via racist language.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 31, 2018 4:34 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Point being though, one is more than ""technically"" racist if they vote for racist policies promoted via racist language.

Yeah, when I say Trump voters are racists, I don't just mean they're all technically somewhere above exactly zero racism.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11340
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 31, 2018 5:18 pm UTC

Liri wrote:I'm gonna refer to gmal's signature.

Point being though, one is more than ""technically"" racist if they vote for racist policies promoted via racist language.


That depends on exactly why someone voted for Trump. If they're doing so on the basis of racist policy, then yeah, sure, racist. If they're doing so for other reasons, not so much.

Other reasons have been mentioned up-thread, most notably economy. In some cases, they might be wrong in such beliefs(Trump voters are particularly likely to view trade as harmful to American jobs, which...is a limited perspective). Still, their focus is on something other than racism in many cases.

Lets look at actual facts here. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-support-daca-but-oppose-border-wall-cbs-news-poll/ Looks like a majority of everyone, including Republicans when broken out, took the answers that were reasonably incongruent with racism. Now, obviously that's not the only way one can express racism, but we don't really have much support for all trump supporters being racist. The difference between Republicans and Democrats isn't even that immense.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu May 31, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yeah, when I say Trump voters are racists, I don't just mean they're all technically somewhere above exactly zero racism.
It still oversimplifies the issue to the point of falsity.

Trump is superior to a candidate who literally peels the skin off of live babies and eats them in the back of a pizzeria. It's not important whether such a candidate actually existed, because people don't make decisions based on the candidates that exist. They make choices based on the candidates that they believe exist. And a significant number of people (yes, I know them personally) do believe pizzagate is literally true, and that it's just the tip of the iceberg. Those people are not voting for Trump because they are racist. They are voting for him because they are hopelessly delusional and misinformed, but based on what they [think they] know, Trump is the clear lesser of two weevils, and are willing to put up with his flaws to avoid the greater weevil.

Further, as to racisim, it's just a subset of tribalism, and Trump was really playing the tribal card, not the race card.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 31, 2018 5:40 pm UTC

If they are convinced pizzagate was real but they are not up in arms over ICE and CBR's abuse of (immigrant) children, they're racist on top of deluded.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8211
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu May 31, 2018 6:03 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Liri wrote:I'm gonna refer to gmal's signature.

Point being though, one is more than ""technically"" racist if they vote for racist policies promoted via racist language.


That depends on exactly why someone voted for Trump. If they're doing so on the basis of racist policy, then yeah, sure, racist. If they're doing so for other reasons, not so much.

At the very least, they felt comfortable enough with the racism to still vote for him.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

elasto
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu May 31, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That depends on exactly why someone voted for Trump. If they're doing so on the basis of racist policy, then yeah, sure, racist. If they're doing so for other reasons, not so much.

At the very least, they felt comfortable enough with the racism to still vote for him.

It's a two-horse race. They may not have felt comfortable with it at all, but still may have felt it necessary to vote for him. For example, maybe they utterly detest racism but hate the 'murder of unborn children' even more.

It's very important to realise that most people vote for a 'lesser of two evils' and may not like their own candidate at all. It's why negative campaigning is so effective.

So, no, one can't paint all voters with even that kind of sweeping statement.

(Anyhow, this doesn't have much to do with police misbehaviour so let's move on)

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11340
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 31, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Liri wrote:I'm gonna refer to gmal's signature.

Point being though, one is more than ""technically"" racist if they vote for racist policies promoted via racist language.


That depends on exactly why someone voted for Trump. If they're doing so on the basis of racist policy, then yeah, sure, racist. If they're doing so for other reasons, not so much.

At the very least, they felt comfortable enough with the racism to still vote for him.


That is the nature of the election system. You're often selecting the lesser of two evils. Many people who voted for Clinton also acknowledged that she had flaws, but simply felt that they were lesser than Trumps. They were not necessarily advocates of these things.

Not prioritizing racism as your #1 concern to fix is not the same thing as being a racist.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10130
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 31, 2018 7:44 pm UTC

It's not an unreasonable belief that Clinton not only screwed up Syria indirectly causing Brexit and the return of the far-right to European mainstream, but that given her history she would continue to screw up the Mid-East and worse. If this is your view of her, then you could say "well, the other candidate may be a racist, but I think he will kill fewer people and his policies will lead to less blowback racism overall anyway..."

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu May 31, 2018 8:50 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:If they are convinced pizzagate was real but they are not up in arms over ICE and CBR's abuse of (immigrant) children, they're racist on top of deluded.
First, that is false. False, as in the opposite of true. False as in the think your sig says you care so much about. Supporting somebody despite racism is not the same as being racist. Second, nobody said they were not up in arms over ICE and CBR. Just that they found that less bad than skinning live babies and eating them, which is what they believe happened.

Really, you are being a one note pony here.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1268
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 31, 2018 9:07 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Supporting somebody despite racism is not the same as being racist.


It's not "kill all the blacks" racist, but it is certainly more racist than thinking that being a dog-whistling racist should disqualify one from holding office. Racism/not racist isn't an on/off switch, and supporting a racist, no matter the reason for doing so, is more racist than not supporting them.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4871
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu May 31, 2018 9:18 pm UTC

Is disowning a racist family member less racist than otherwise? Does someone who still loves their old grandpa despite his casual racism thereby more racist than they otherwise could be?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6233
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu May 31, 2018 9:23 pm UTC

If they are supporting them for office, yes, they are a racist. The question is what effects their actions will have. Now, Trump will do nothing on abortions, just appoint more conservative judges that will, along with Trump's racist policies, support the further erosion of rights for women and minorities. The gains they make on abortion are going to be very slim - to accept the racism as a tradeoff means you have to have pretty much no respect for minorities. Maybe there are hypothetical Republicans who will stick up for women and minorities, but there is no evidence presented of that here.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8211
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu May 31, 2018 9:25 pm UTC

Yeah, this isn't "being friendly with crazy grandpa", this is giving a huge amount of power to someone who can impact all of our lives.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1268
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 31, 2018 9:26 pm UTC

We're way off topic, but spoilered answer:
Spoiler:
Everyone's answer is going to be different in this, here's mine: I think that disown/not disown isn't the proper hypothetical to illustrate this example. A better example would be at a family gathering, tolerating hate speech by said grandfather is more racist than pointing out to them how it is inappropriate/wrong/racist.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11340
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 31, 2018 9:33 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:If they are supporting them for office, yes, they are a racist. The question is what effects their actions will have. Now, Trump will do nothing on abortions, just appoint more conservative judges that will, along with Trump's racist policies, support the further erosion of rights for women and minorities. The gains they make on abortion are going to be very slim - to accept the racism as a tradeoff means you have to have pretty much no respect for minorities. Maybe there are hypothetical Republicans who will stick up for women and minorities, but there is no evidence presented of that here.


In terms of practicality, I suspect you are right. Anti-abortion folks are unlikely to get any sort of big win at a federal level, I think. They're not really gaining support, there's a constitutional obstacle...it's a long shot.

But they do believe that it's literally piles of murders, so from their perspective, even slight judicial progress against such a great evil is worth significant tradeoff. Likewise, people are generally willing to accept significant tradeoffs for people they don't know in return for financial gain for themselves. I mean, pork barrel politics literally wouldn't exist otherwise. So, that's your economic folks, together with the religious/anti-abortion folks. Those are two fairly big issues within the Republican party.

Your logic boils down to expecting people to prioritize the same things as you, when that's definitely not the case in reality. Folks are accepting Trump as the option closest to their interests. Sort of. Trump still doesn't have an amazing popularity rating. By the numbers, people don't really actually love him all that much. They tolerated him enough for him to win the election, but not a good deal more.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 31, 2018 9:43 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:If they are convinced pizzagate was real but they are not up in arms over ICE and CBR's abuse of (immigrant) children, they're racist on top of deluded.
First, that is false. False, as in the opposite of true. False as in the think your sig says you care so much about. Supporting somebody despite racism is not the same as being racist. Second, nobody said they were not up in arms over ICE and CBR. Just that they found that less bad than skinning live babies and eating them, which is what they believe happened.

Okay, hypothetically let's suppose that somewhere out there may be some totally non-racist Trump voters who believe every extreme detail of the pizzagate conspiracy theory (but somehow none of the details of the multitude of implicitly or explicitly racist conspiracy theories peddled by the same sorts of places pushing the pizzagate narrative). In that case I was wrong to say all Trump voters are racist. I apologize and hereby amend my claim:

All Trump voters are at least one of racist or insane.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: addams and 18 guests