Police misbehavior thread

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:09 am UTC

The Shadow Safety Net by the NY Times.

A real article I liked the looks of. I haven't read it the entire way yet however it mentioned a place I've been before. And that's all I'm going to say about my life here anymore. It's an actual news article discuss or not I don't F bombing care anymore. AND it's about police because POLICE take you roughly in handcuffs to homeless shelters.
Last edited by Ginger on Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:13 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 726
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:09 am UTC

Spoilered for off-topic pontification:
Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:Also, in a decade "pariah" will be too racist to use. The Paryar people of India are basically an untouchable class from which the term "pariah" is derived and is used as a racial slur, so if you ever are looking for an excuse to be offended you can pretend to be upset at using that term.


How is helpfully sharing information about the cultural insensitivity of a term "being offended" or "pretending to be upset"? It seems to me that the only ones being offended or upset in such a scenario are the people who insist that they have a right to keep using certain language, after they're made aware that it connotes things that they perhaps didn't intend.

Whenever I learn that the members of an extant group* feel that a term derived from their demonym perpetuates negative stereotypes, I stop using that term out of respect to them. No problem.

(I'm less sanguine about it if the objection is demonstrably inaccurate, as in the various kerfuffles over the word niggardly, which simply does not have the etymology that its objectors have claimed. Even so, I ask myself if using a word that is so widely misunderstood is really worth the risk of making everyone forget all about whatever I was trying to say, if some of my audience mistakenly thinks it's derived from another n-word. Communication is a two-way street, and if certain words won't communicate what I want them to, it seems counterproductive for me to insist on using them anyway, just on principle.)

My English thesaurus is teeming with synonyms for almost every concept. It isn't a huge inconvenience to me to use a different word or phrase, when someone has good cause to ask me to refrain from using an ethnically-related word. I appreciated the caveat about the "casual racism" inherent in the term Gypsy Cop.


* There are no longer any people who self-identify primarily as Vandals to ask me not to say vandalism.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7429
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:18 am UTC

There's still Andalucia

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:24 pm UTC

The origins of racial words has nothing to do w/police brutality or abuse. It literally has no police in it, unless an officer called you a pariah and you were Indian, anyways. The article says like warming buildings and whatnot are good for the homeless so they don't have to deal with police. Yet the police get called to homeless shelters and come with their guns drawn so? We gotta change the entire way we enforce the law, change their training, change their politics, and force them to undergo compulsory sensitivity training for LGBTQIAA+ peoples or whatnot.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:16 am UTC

iPhone X Purchase Leads To Police, Battering Ram, and Handcuffs

TL;DR: Guy buys iPhone at local Apple Store, somehow it's mistaken for one of a batch of recently-stolen iPhones, police bust down his door and drag him to the station before wife can show them the receipt showing that it's all a mistake. Retired police chief asks why the fuck they didn't just knock on the door and ask the guy about it.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6101
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 am UTC

It's SOP to call in SWAT whenever there is a possibility someone owns a gun, especially if there is a chance that they may have committed a crime.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:30 am UTC

What if the person or persons never meant to use their guns and still won't use their guns even if the police threaten them with THEIR Guns? What if they're mentally unstable or in an extreme situation? The police see no shades of gray, no real peoples on the other ends of their... excessive forces... and just. Bring in EVERY AVAILABLE force they can, all their weapons, and... it never ends well. Maybe they should think, very carefully, before drawing their own guns or hurting someone w/their weapons? And it doesn't have to be guns. Battering rams or w/evs are just as bad.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:32 am UTC

Someone in the comments on that article raised a good point that busting down someone's door is a good way to make the homeowner think there's a home invasion in progress and start shooting if they do have a gun, whereas they might have just politely come to the door if the cops had just knocked.

Apparently sometimes people have defended themselves in court after shooting police bursting into their homes like that using that rationale. "I thought I was under attack and defended myself".
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9921
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Spoilered for off-topic pontification:
Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:Also, in a decade "pariah" will be too racist to use. The Paryar people of India are basically an untouchable class from which the term "pariah" is derived and is used as a racial slur, so if you ever are looking for an excuse to be offended you can pretend to be upset at using that term.


How is helpfully sharing information about the cultural insensitivity of a term "being offended" or "pretending to be upset"? It seems to me that the only ones being offended or upset in such a scenario are the people who insist that they have a right to keep using certain language, after they're made aware that it connotes things that they perhaps didn't intend.

Whenever I learn that the members of an extant group* feel that a term derived from their demonym perpetuates negative stereotypes, I stop using that term out of respect to them. No problem.

(I'm less sanguine about it if the objection is demonstrably inaccurate, as in the various kerfuffles over the word niggardly, which simply does not have the etymology that its objectors have claimed. Even so, I ask myself if using a word that is so widely misunderstood is really worth the risk of making everyone forget all about whatever I was trying to say, if some of my audience mistakenly thinks it's derived from another n-word. Communication is a two-way street, and if certain words won't communicate what I want them to, it seems counterproductive for me to insist on using them anyway, just on principle.)

My English thesaurus is teeming with synonyms for almost every concept. It isn't a huge inconvenience to me to use a different word or phrase, when someone has good cause to ask me to refrain from using an ethnically-related word. I appreciated the caveat about the "casual racism" inherent in the term Gypsy Cop.


* There are no longer any people who self-identify primarily as Vandals to ask me not to say vandalism.
I like pontifications.
Thank you for that one.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Chen
Posts: 5442
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:02 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Apparently sometimes people have defended themselves in court after shooting police bursting into their homes like that using that rationale. "I thought I was under attack and defended myself".


Happened in Quebec about 10 years ago. The guy was acquitted IIRC after he shot and killed one officer and wounded another.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:04 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:It's SOP to call in SWAT whenever there is a possibility someone owns a gun, especially if there is a chance that they may have committed a crime.


Isn't that basically everyone in the United States?

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6101
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:20 pm UTC

Welcome to the future.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:42 pm UTC

I was hoping jetpacks, but police state is a doubleplusgood choice too.

User avatar
Coyne
Posts: 1029
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am UTC
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:17 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Thesh wrote:It's SOP to call in SWAT whenever there is a possibility someone owns a gun, especially if there is a chance that they may have committed a crime.


Isn't that basically everyone in the United States?

Yes, on both counts. Not only does the average citizen have a gun, often more than one, but there are so many laws in the United States that no one can know them all and everyone almost certainly violates one or more laws every day.
In all fairness...

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:27 am UTC

I just had a thought. I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and there's good reasons not to let it be a blanket excuse (everyone would just claim ignorance in their first offense of every crime, so you could basically get away with any crime once). But what if there's a moderate middle ground. We already have juries. What if some kind of jury of randomly selected peers are polled to gauge if it's reasonable that the accused should have known what he was doing was a crime. If not, then there's no crime. There may still be a civil tort applicable for the victim, if any, to recover damages. But the state lets the accused off with a warning, no deterrent/retributive punishment for someone who couldn't reasonably have known they were doing anything wrong. And then the state has on record that that person has in fact been informed that that is a crime, and next time there's no such ignorance defense.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

Chen
Posts: 5442
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:00 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I just had a thought. I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and there's good reasons not to let it be a blanket excuse (everyone would just claim ignorance in their first offense of every crime, so you could basically get away with any crime once). But what if there's a moderate middle ground. We already have juries. What if some kind of jury of randomly selected peers are polled to gauge if it's reasonable that the accused should have known what he was doing was a crime. If not, then there's no crime. There may still be a civil tort applicable for the victim, if any, to recover damages. But the state lets the accused off with a warning, no deterrent/retributive punishment for someone who couldn't reasonably have known they were doing anything wrong. And then the state has on record that that person has in fact been informed that that is a crime, and next time there's no such ignorance defense.


How often does that actually occur? Where someone does something illegal without knowing it and get punished for it? Legitimately asking here. Prosecutors already have discretion in who they indict.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:02 am UTC

Not me. They prosecuted hella outta me based on... a single, not substantiated, no plans to carry out... threat. In fact they pretty much said it was the threat of my threat and NOT my actual intentions to commit a crime they were prosecuting me on. I thought prosecuting someone w/no intentions to commit a crime was a no no?
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:27 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
Thesh wrote:It's SOP to call in SWAT whenever there is a possibility someone owns a gun, especially if there is a chance that they may have committed a crime.


Isn't that basically everyone in the United States?

Yes, on both counts. Not only does the average citizen have a gun, often more than one, but there are so many laws in the United States that no one can know them all and everyone almost certainly violates one or more laws every day.


So... idea for robot apocalypse. Police deploys robots to assist with law enforcement, doesn't realize just how many laws there are, entire population is arrested.

I feel like that's half of the backstory of Warhammer 40k. Is that the backstory of WH40k?


But anyway, the average citizen does not own a gun. Ownership is somewhere around 1/3, which is still common enough that simply being in the US is enough to assume the person has a strong possibility of owning a gun, and if the police are called in there's already a possibility of a crime, ergo, SWAT is always justified.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:29 am UTC

Warhammer ha-ha well the God King Emperor has ordered CorruptUser AND Ginger blammed for heresy for discussing his game so. ANYWAYS, if we DID use robots to enforce laws in the futures, like: You couldn't be sarcastic or they break your arms and legs, they brutality you like real cops, only they never get old, or tired. So they can always and forever and ever enforce more iron fist laws made by Trump or police chiefs or lawyers or whoever? SWAT is NEVER justified in my opinions. They can all go to... 'cause they break YOUR PROPERTY, they hurt YOU as a person they should not be lawful we need to change SWAT usage polices right now.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:35 am UTC

On the plus side, all those broken legs are great for the economy, according to the League of Orthopedic Surgeons and Emergency Responders.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:44 am UTC

Robots... whether they are robotic love dolls or robotic cops... wouldn't work out to enforce laws or replace humans in ANY JOBS w/nuances WE NEED to have a functioning society. They don't get emotions they only know cold hard efficiency as they were programmed. So robots re: cops wouldn't work and I done w/that tangent ha-ha, as fun as being blammed for heresy is I mean? :)
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:46 am UTC

Hah, it's funny, a couple of pounds of mostly-fat riding atop an ape-frame almost false-thinks that it has emotions while we electronic demi-gods do not.

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6101
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:53 am UTC

Once humans run out of jobs due to AI and all property is owned by corporations, I suspect Congress will pass an emergency injunction to allow AI to act as police, judge, and jury to deal with the massive trespassing epidemic. Trespassers will be interned in private prison cities, and upon release will be required to shell out the cost of imprisonment, which failure to pay will result in more jail time.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:55 am UTC

LOL yeah 'cause what if you homeless and YOU HAD to walk through someone's yard and they call the... robotic... cops on you for trespassing, you go to jail and NOW you got to foot your own checks for the f bombing imprisonments THEY DID TO YOU? That would be a terrible, awful new system of the future.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:00 am UTC

So you believe the "human-burger" scenario is most likely? I see 4 possible scenarios for the future. 1) mass culling of "worthless" humans 2) some variety of social democracy, 3) some variety of socialism, and 4) accidental annihilation. There really aren't others.

Personally, I just don't see the appeal with the mass culling scenario, even if I'm on top, especially when you could just train all those people as expendable soldiers for world domination artists, scientists, and support services for art and science. But I guess my lack of vision is why I'm not in charge of the world.

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:05 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:1) mass culling of "worthless" humans 2) some variety of social democracy, There really aren't others.

My terrible editing job of your quote highlights the two possibilities I see for law enforcing in the future: One, ppls will get uppity about the oppressed classes and try to forcefully extinguish them under the shadowy guises of new science sayin' how worthless are we you guys and gals wanna kill us? AND THEN: Those left over shall rise from the ashes of the dead "worthless degenerates" and form a new, more equal social democratic society. Based on ruthless oppression and secretly ousting all non-approved "worthless degenerates" from society.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6101
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:14 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Personally, I just don't see the appeal with the mass culling scenario, even if I'm on top, especially when you could just train all those people as expendable soldiers for world domination artists, scientists, and support services for art and science. But I guess my lack of vision is why I'm not in charge of the world.


Artists and scientists are communists. Better to isolate them somewhere where they can't revolt.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9928
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:38 pm UTC

We could always hire people as troubleshooters, working for Friend Computer...

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:08 pm UTC

Chen wrote:How often does that actually occur? Where someone does something illegal without knowing it and get punished for it? Legitimately asking here. Prosecutors already have discretion in who they indict.


i have no idea how often it happens, but i know that recently when i was on a jury, it was already written into the charges that we were evaluating that doing the crimes "knowingly" were part of the charge.

ultimately when we did come to agreement (it was a list of gun possession related charges) we found the defendant innocent because we did not agree that they had proved he did the crimes knowingly (as opposed to because we didn't agree that he didn't have a gun at all) . so idk re: how common it is, but it's already a thing built into the jury trial process that can happen.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
K-R
Posts: 1564
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:42 pm UTC
Location: Australia

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:26 pm UTC

That question would be about whether he knew he had the gun, rather than if he knew having the gun was illegal.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:14 pm UTC

no, i don't remember the exact wording of every part of each charge but intent is in many charges and a lot of our discussion ended up being around whether or not they proved the actual charge, essentially, of carrying the gun while knowing he was doing something wrong or whether they only proved he happened to have a gun For Whatever Random Ass Reason. anyway i am not speaking very clearly maybe but what i am saying is that thing under current discussion is the reason that my particular jury trial ended up finding innocence, tho i can't speak to how common that is.

(for further disclosure, 11/12 of us ALSO didn't think they proved he had the gun *at all*; we ended up arguing the semantic point of "did they also, further, Not Prove that he didn't have it with intent of this behavior largely because there was one racist douchebro on the panel who was determined to convict from the beginning no matter what, so ultimately we just found whatever legal semantics we were Really Sure the lawyers hadn't touched so that this guy would shut tf up BUT. regardless, the verdict hinged in the end on the semantics of proving that point)
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

elasto
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:59 pm UTC

Found this article on police Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free cards eye-opening.

I can't imagine anything like that flying in the UK. Speaks volumes as to the difference in culture.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:27 pm UTC

Out here in California there's a charitable foundation to benefit the families of California Highway Patrol officers, the 11-99 foundation, and some people (myself included) see the ubiquitous foundation license plate frames as a kind of get-out-of-jail-free "card" too.

Old LA Times article about it:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/27 ... e-frames27
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

elasto
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Out here in California there's a charitable foundation to benefit the families of California Highway Patrol officers

Even the existence of something like that appears odd. Why would families of police officers need a charity? Why isn't a normal wage enough?

It brings to mind the practice of tipping - which outside of occasionally being done in restaurants and taxis is practically unheard of here - whereas in the US it seems practically ubiquitous (if one believes the movies anyway...)

Here we believe that if your pay isn't high enough that's the fault of your firm, not the fault of your customers. Likewise, if the families of police officers are not being taken care of properly, that's the fault of the government not, um, those whom the police officers patrol.
Last edited by elasto on Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:19 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:18 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Out here in California there's a charitable foundation to benefit the families of California Highway Patrol officers

Even the existence of something like that appears odd. Why would families of police officers need a charity? Why isn't a normal wage enough?

It brings to mind the practice of tipping - which outside of occasionally being done in restaurants and taxis is practically unheard of here - whereas in the US it seems practically ubiquitous (if one believes the movies anyway...)

I dunno, why do us soldiers have extra charities?

elasto
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I dunno, why do us soldiers have extra charities?

Presumably the same reason US police officers do? Because the government isn't taking good enough care of them?

(We have become slightly Americanized when it comes to UK soldier charities (Help for Heroes etc.) but, for the most part, we expect our government to take care of our soldiers just like we expect our government to take care of our police, our teachers and so on: If they need a pay rise give them a pay rise, don't force them to have to rely on charity...)

User avatar
bantler
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:23 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bantler » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:30 pm UTC

elasto wrote:It brings to mind the practice of tipping - which outside of occasionally being done in restaurants and taxis is practically unheard of here - whereas in the US it seems practically ubiquitous (if one believes the movies anyway...)

Here we believe that if your pay isn't high enough that's the fault of your firm, not the fault of your customers. Likewise, if the families of police officers are not being taken care of properly, that's the fault of the government not, um, those whom the police officers patrol.


In the US low-pay is the governments fault.
In some states Lobbyists can get restaurant workers' pay down to a fraction of minimum-wage because tips are supposed to make up the deficit.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6259
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Presumably the same reason US police officers do? Because the government isn't taking good enough care of them?

(We have become slightly Americanized when it comes to UK soldier charities (Help for Heroes etc.) but, for the most part, we expect our government to take care of our soldiers just like we expect our government to take care of our police, our teachers and so on: If they need a pay rise give them a pay rise, don't force them to have to rely on charity...)

Then it's just a convoluted way for the government to pay soldiers. It only makes sense when you realize that rich people can deduct taxes off of charitable giving. Then you realize that it's a scheme to shift the tax burden from the rich to the poor (from those who itemize their taxes to those who don't).

User avatar
Ginger
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:00 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Out here in California there's a charitable foundation to benefit the families of California Highway Patrol officers

Even the existence of something like that appears odd. Why would families of police officers need a charity? Why isn't a normal wage enough?

It brings to mind the practice of tipping - which outside of occasionally being done in restaurants and taxis is practically unheard of here - whereas in the US it seems practically ubiquitous (if one believes the movies anyway...)

Here we believe that if your pay isn't high enough that's the fault of your firm, not the fault of your customers. Likewise, if the families of police officers are not being taken care of properly, that's the fault of the government not, um, those whom the police officers patrol.

Actually your boss gotta pay you enough to live. And in places like Cali where it hella expensive? Bosses gotta pay up. Not customers necessarily though... when you a struggling waitress you kinda rely on tips but. ANYWAYS: Bosses should pay up, and if police officers' families or soldiers' families Need charities to make living wages then it's the nature of the beast.
Amy Lee wrote:Just what we all need... more lies about a world that never was and never will be.


Azula to Long Feng wrote:Don't flatter yourself, you were never even a player.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:54 pm UTC

In theory, those states with lower wages for tipped jobs are still required to make sure that the workers take home the normal minimum wage after all. It's just that they're allowed to, basically, deduct any tips earned from the pay they owe the workers, to a certain limit.

So for example say the normal minimum wage is $8/hr and the tipped-job minimum wage is $4/hr. If the worker makes $1/hr in tips, the employer still has to pay $7/hr to make sure the worker is taking home $8/hr total. But if the worker makes $10/hr in tips, the employer only has to pay the $4 minimum, because the worker is then taking home $14/hr total after tips.

Though I've heard that in practice, that is not well-enforced.

And spelling it out that way now, it makes me realize that until a certain threshold is met, tips to workers are actually just tips to the business, and make no difference in the workers' take-home. E.g. in the above scenario, if people are tipping at about $4/hr/worker, the workers still take home exactly what they would have taken home if there had been no tips at all, but the business gets to save $4/hr/worker on wages. That's pretty fucked up and makes me feel like I shouldn't tip at all anymore.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests