Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:27 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Coyne wrote:Racists, police, and a larger group of anti-progressives, regard #BlackLivesMatter as a threat on a par with the Black Panthers.

Regarding the Black Panthers as a threat in the first place is already racist and anti-progressive, or at the very least ignorantly credulous of racist and anti-progressive propaganda.

Given that he considers BLM a good thing, I'm thinking, 'close enough'.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:56 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Coyne wrote:Racists, police, and a larger group of anti-progressives, regard #BlackLivesMatter as a threat on a par with the Black Panthers.

Regarding the Black Panthers as a threat in the first place is already racist and anti-progressive, or at the very least ignorantly credulous of racist and anti-progressive propaganda.

I understand that; I committed a mea culpa. Those groups regard Black Panthers as an existential threat, but that's self-referential: X hates Z the same as X hates Y.

Unfixable, too. I hope the rest of my post makes sense.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:07 am UTC

sardia wrote:Given that he considers BLM a good thing, I'm thinking, 'close enough'.

Given Ferguson, what kind of response would you think is good? Never mind, I get it: Saint Darren and the servants of light and all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:16 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Coyne wrote:Racists, police, and a larger group of anti-progressives, regard #BlackLivesMatter as a threat on a par with the Black Panthers.

Regarding the Black Panthers as a threat in the first place is already racist and anti-progressive, or at the very least ignorantly credulous of racist and anti-progressive propaganda.


Well, there are the Black Panthers and the New Black Panthers; the latter are about as progressive as the Klu Klux Klan.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... ther-party

The Black Panther Party of the 60s and 70s isn't around anymore.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:54 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Coyne wrote:Racists, police, and a larger group of anti-progressives, regard #BlackLivesMatter as a threat on a par with the Black Panthers.

Regarding the Black Panthers as a threat in the first place is already racist and anti-progressive, or at the very least ignorantly credulous of racist and anti-progressive propaganda.

I understand that; I committed a mea culpa. Those groups regard Black Panthers as an existential threat, but that's self-referential: X hates Z the same as X hates Y.

Unfixable, too. I hope the rest of my post makes sense.
That part also made sense. I didn't think you were saying the BPP was a threat, I just think it's always important to address the myth that they were every time it comes up.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:45 pm UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:05 pm UTC



That's kinda what I had assumed the reason was to begin with. Now granted, I'm not sure how a trained officer with a rifle misses his original target with 3 shots at 50 yards, when not being pressured or moving. Though in this case it's a good thing he did.

From what I've read they were called in because someone thought the autistic man had a gun and was going to kill himself. Even if that was the case, why the hell would you SHOOT the person moving their supposed gun around, if you were called in to try and prevent them from killing themselves in the first place?

And also, who the hell calls the cops when someone is playing with a damn truck, thinking it's a gun? Do people just think that anyone holding anything is a gun in the states? Come on now.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:19 pm UTC

Uhhh, the point is, that's a horribly unconvincing reason.

I mean, the fact that he's also apparently an incompetent marksman is a gimmie, given the situation, but if you shoot someone accidentally, why the shit would you cuff them?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:27 pm UTC

Handcuffing accurately from 50 yards may be difficult?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby phlip » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:49 pm UTC

Say you were in a situation where there were two people, and you thought one was a threat. Even putting aside how ridiculous it is to think that, let's grant that for the sake of argument. You fire three shots at them... two miss, and one hits the wrong guy. What's the chain of logic from there to handcuffing the guy you (supposedly accidentally) shot, denying them medical assistance, and then standing down as though the threat had been dealt with?

Like, if they thought truck guy was the threat... why would they stop shooting and calm down, given none of their shots hit their mark?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:57 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Uhhh, the point is, that's a horribly unconvincing reason.

I mean, the fact that he's also apparently an incompetent marksman is a gimmie, given the situation, but if you shoot someone accidentally, why the shit would you cuff them?


Oh the handcuffing and letting them bleed part is completely incomprehensible. I was just talking about the actual shooting part. Which is at least something that could be understood though still ridiculously horrible.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:04 pm UTC

phlip wrote:Like, if they thought truck guy was the threat... why would they stop shooting and calm down, given none of their shots hit their mark?


Precisely. Their actions match what you would expect to see if the person who was hit was perceived as the threat.

It does not match the story at all.

It's a remarkably shitty story.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:48 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Uhhh, the point is, that's a horribly unconvincing reason.

I mean, the fact that he's also apparently an incompetent marksman is a gimmie, given the situation, but if you shoot someone accidentally, why the shit would you cuff them?


Oh the handcuffing and letting them bleed part is completely incomprehensible. I was just talking about the actual shooting part. Which is at least something that could be understood though still ridiculously horrible.

No it doesn't make sense if they actually thought they had reason to shoot the other one why would hitting the wrong one suddenly eliminate the threat and allow them to go handcuff him?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:40 pm UTC

Chen wrote:


That's kinda what I had assumed the reason was to begin with. Now granted, I'm not sure how a trained officer with a rifle misses his original target with 3 shots at 50 yards, when not being pressured or moving. Though in this case it's a good thing he did.

From what I've read they were called in because someone thought the autistic man had a gun and was going to kill himself. Even if that was the case, why the hell would you SHOOT the person moving their supposed gun around, if you were called in to try and prevent them from killing themselves in the first place?

And also, who the hell calls the cops when someone is playing with a damn truck, thinking it's a gun? Do people just think that anyone holding anything is a gun in the states? Come on now.

There have been a number of cases where police murder the suicidal person they were called to save.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:54 pm UTC

phlip wrote:What's the chain of logic from there to handcuffing the guy you (supposedly accidentally) shot
Not that the rest of it makes sense, but apparently it is standard police procedure in the US to hand cuff people who are shot(accidentally or not) simply because shot people tend to be pissed and or unpredictable.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/04/wh ... eople.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/nyregion/18cuffs.html
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:57 pm UTC

Okay, that's still kind of bewildering. But on a general policy basis, now.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:14 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
phlip wrote:What's the chain of logic from there to handcuffing the guy you (supposedly accidentally) shot
Not that the rest of it makes sense, but apparently it is standard police procedure in the US to hand cuff people who are shot(accidentally or not) simply because shot people tend to be pissed and or unpredictable.

To be fair, those guidelines do specify cuffing "suspects" who the police have shot, not anyone who they've shot. (For example, when the NYPD sprayed nine innocent people with bullets in 2012, they at least had the decency not to do that.) Though as we see here, that subtle distintion may not always count for much.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:35 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:No it doesn't make sense if they actually thought they had reason to shoot the other one why would hitting the wrong one suddenly eliminate the threat and allow them to go handcuff him?


I assume the other, more rational cops there, informed their trigger happy colleague that the man on the ground (either of them) was not in fact a threat.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:08 am UTC

So I was reading about all the inconsistencies, and I agree their story doesn't make any sense at all.

And I think it says things about policing in the US: That the police don't care if we know they're lying. It says a lot about accountability, and the fawning obeisance of so much of the citizenry.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:19 pm UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:13 am UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:41 am UTC


Look, the only reason so many die in jail is because we jail so many people. That's definitely a better way of putting it. Yup, not wrong at all.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:52 am UTC

I think a better way of putting it is "7000 people no longer have to live in Texas". Ahaha aheh heh. Ahem. *cough*

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:53 am UTC

http://www.inc.com/will-yakowicz/cops-s ... anies.html

Local law enforcement in California is ramping up raids on legal medical marijuana companies that are licensed by the cities - so basically, the cities license them, and then once they get enough assets, they raid them and seize them since they are violating federal laws, presumably for the sole purpose of increasing revenue. No criminal charges are ever filed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:29 pm UTC

God, why can't California be more like Albany, NY or Providence, RI, where the businesses just remember to pay their bribes on time and the police leave them alone?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:52 pm UTC

In a non-American case, a Canadian court has thrown out a terrorism case, with the two accused having been charged with attempting to place pressure cooker explosives outside a legislature building. The judge issued a scathing rebuke of the officers involved in the case, finding that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had clearly entrapped a mentally unstable couple into engaging into an action that they never would have otherwise.

B.C. Supreme Court Justice Catherine Bruce wrote:"This is truly a case where the RCMP manufactured the crime [...]

Simply put, the world has enough terrorists. We do not need the police to create more out of marginalized people who have neither the capacity nor sufficient motivation to do it themselves."


Shortly after being freed by the Court, the couple were immediately arrested again, the Crown this time detaining them until a "terrorism peace bond"--basically a court order that can restrict the movements or activities of suspected terrorists--can be arranged.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:12 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
phlip wrote:What's the chain of logic from there to handcuffing the guy you (supposedly accidentally) shot
Not that the rest of it makes sense, but apparently it is standard police procedure in the US to hand cuff people who are shot(accidentally or not) simply because shot people tend to be pissed and or unpredictable.

To be fair, those guidelines do specify cuffing "suspects" who the police have shot, not anyone who they've shot. (For example, when the NYPD sprayed nine innocent people with bullets in 2012, they at least had the decency not to do that.) Though as we see here, that subtle distintion may not always count for much.


It really depends on the situation. It's standard procedure to cuff people whenever there is any question as to their intentions, state of mind, etc.

Bear in mind that while it's easy to point out glaring mistakes after the fact, in the heat of the moment it's really different. I'm not defending the cop in this case - I think he fucked up - but it's not necessarily a malicious thing. In a matter of seconds he has to decide if two grown men sitting on the ground are a threat, whether or not what one of them is holding is a weapon, whether that object is being used in a threatening manner, and so forth.

Once the shots were fired and the police got close, things become more clear - the thing is a toy and not a gun, the guy isn't making any overtly threatening movements. But until it's absolutely clear that neither is a threat, they're going to be treated as possible threats. That means restraints, and that also unfortunately means withholding medical care until after you've cleared the guy for any weapons he may be holding.

For me, this instance looks more like a matter of poor training than anything else; an officer lost his composure and fired.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:33 pm UTC

See, everyone keeps saying this. The whole "heat of the moment" thing. But what makes THAT a moment?

If someone's trying to kill me, I or anyone else will always have to decide fairly quickly to stop it. But mostly, we don't murder each other for sitting down, holding a toy car, or talking to someone who is. Everyone else seems to manage this fairly easily.

Why are cops so shitty at this decision making?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:48 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:See, everyone keeps saying this. The whole "heat of the moment" thing. But what makes THAT a moment?

If someone's trying to kill me, I or anyone else will always have to decide fairly quickly to stop it. But mostly, we don't murder each other for sitting down, holding a toy car, or talking to someone who is. Everyone else seems to manage this fairly easily.

Why are cops so shitty at this decision making?

Because cops are trained to see everything as a threat, even if the threat isnt real or even common. When you have officers being hammered with videos showing all the ways cops have died in the past, it instills a sense of shoot first and ask questions sometimes. Maybe. Doesn't that sound familiar to you? 'Threats are everywhere, always be vigilant, etc etc'.
Last edited by sardia on Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:59 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Because cops are trained to see everything as a threat, even if the threat isnt real or even common. When you have officers being hammered with videos showing ask the ways cops have died in the past, it instills a sense of shoot first and ask questions sometimes. Maybe. Doesn't that sound familiar to you? 'Threats are everywhere, always be vigilant, etc etc'.


Doesn't help in this case that the initial call was "someone is suicidal and has a gun". Or that another officer seemed to confirm to the one who shot that the man sitting down had a gun.

Course there's also the other guy yelling at it's just a toy truck and that he's an autistic patient just playing with it, that should have been taken into account. What he's saying can be heard on the video, so presumably the cops were close enough to hear that too. I can't seem to find how far they were when they shot, but you'd think they'd be able to tell a toy (that doesn't LOOK like a gun) from a real gun. Then again, the officer missed his target and hit the other man with 3 shots from a rifle so maybe they were further away...or he's an absolutely terrible shot.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:26 pm UTC

Also many white shooters with actual guns often manage to be brought in without being shot at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:31 pm UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:14 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Then again, the officer missed his target and hit the other man with 3 shots from a rifle so maybe they were further away...or he's an absolutely terrible shot.


That is a very specific kind of terrible shot.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:29 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Chen wrote:Then again, the officer missed his target and hit the other man with 3 shots from a rifle so maybe they were further away...or he's an absolutely terrible shot.


That is a very specific kind of terrible shot.


In re-reading my post it implies he hit the guy with 3 shots. He actually only hit the other guy once and 2 shots missed. The fact he hit the other guy in the leg too does seem to at least indicate he wasn't intentionally shooting at that guy. I'm still sticking with my terrible shot comment (or the very far away comment).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:04 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:See, everyone keeps saying this. The whole "heat of the moment" thing. But what makes THAT a moment?


It's about stress. Two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them with a toy, is easy to dismiss as nothing from the sidelines - especially after the fact. But when you're actually there, and you've got to decide within a few seconds what they're doing and whether they pose a threat to you or anyone else, that's a lot to process in a moment.

If someone's trying to kill me, I or anyone else will always have to decide fairly quickly to stop it. But mostly, we don't murder each other for sitting down, holding a toy car, or talking to someone who is. Everyone else seems to manage this fairly easily.


But the point is, he didn't shoot the guy for lying down, or holding a toy car, or for talking. My hypothesis is that he shot because he didn't know what the two of them were doing there, didn't know what the guy was holding in his hand, and he saw something - maybe just a flinch - that prompted him to fire his weapon.

Why are cops so shitty at this decision making?


Because they're human. And, because they aren't trained nearly well enough.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:See, everyone keeps saying this. The whole "heat of the moment" thing. But what makes THAT a moment?


It's about stress. Two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them with a toy, is easy to dismiss as nothing from the sidelines - especially after the fact. But when you're actually there, and you've got to decide within a few seconds what they're doing and whether they pose a threat to you or anyone else, that's a lot to process in a moment.


Average people encounter two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them holding an innocuous object ALL THE TIME. And then manage to not kill anyone.

Sometimes we even see people holding things that we cannot immediately identify, and we restrain ourselves from shooting wildly.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:12 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Why are cops so shitty at this decision making?


Because they're human. And, because they aren't trained nearly well enough.

This doesn't really explain why cops outside the US don't kill as many people.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:21 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Average people encounter two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them holding an innocuous object ALL THE TIME. And then manage to not kill anyone.

Sometimes we even see people holding things that we cannot immediately identify, and we restrain ourselves from shooting wildly.


Uh the people who started this whole situation called the cops saying someone was going to kill themselves with a gun. So yes they themselves didn't kill anyone but they certainly made a similar mistake to the ones the cops did, with respect to what the guy was holding.

The cops arrived with that bad information, combined with one cop who was trigger happy/twitchy whatever. The circumstances are significantly different compared to just a random person walking by on the street.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:00 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:See, everyone keeps saying this. The whole "heat of the moment" thing. But what makes THAT a moment?


It's about stress. Two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them with a toy, is easy to dismiss as nothing from the sidelines - especially after the fact. But when you're actually there, and you've got to decide within a few seconds what they're doing and whether they pose a threat to you or anyone else, that's a lot to process in a moment.


Where is this time pressure you propose coming from? Say they can't tell what it is but even if they believe he has a gun that doesn't mean they have to start shooting immediately. So why exactly do you propose they had to act in seconds. Apparently another officer said for some reason that he had a gun, did he also say "he is preparing to shoot him"? Otherwise I don't exactly see the need to start shooting without properly checking the situation, presumably he had this gun for a while and the police probably didn't teleport there.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:30 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Average people encounter two grown men sitting on the ground, one of them holding an innocuous object ALL THE TIME. And then manage to not kill anyone.

Sometimes we even see people holding things that we cannot immediately identify, and we restrain ourselves from shooting wildly.


Uh the people who started this whole situation called the cops saying someone was going to kill themselves with a gun. So yes they themselves didn't kill anyone but they certainly made a similar mistake to the ones the cops did, with respect to what the guy was holding.

The cops arrived with that bad information, combined with one cop who was trigger happy/twitchy whatever. The circumstances are significantly different compared to just a random person walking by on the street.


So? Regular people get bad information all the time. Cops outside the US get bad information all the time.

You're still not providing a delta.


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