Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SDK » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:54 pm UTC

He's a big guy. They've seen guys smaller than him smash through glass like it's nuthin' in the movies.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:57 pm UTC

I don't see why every shooting by cops doesn't have a root cause analysis done.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:03 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I don't see why every shooting by cops doesn't have a root cause analysis done.

The short answer is because they don't want to conduct one, and nobody has the pull to compel them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:20 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Angua wrote:I don't see why every shooting by cops doesn't have a root cause analysis done.

The short answer is because they don't want to conduct one, and nobody has the pull to compel them.

This.

And because it would do nothing to support their narrative most of the time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Vahir » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:12 pm UTC

Maybe this specific case wasn't so clear cut?

North Carolina officers repeatedly warned an armed man to drop his gun before fatally shooting him, a police chief said after a night of protests.


Seems like it was justified now.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:38 pm UTC

Police had said he reached into his car through the window to retrieve the gun, pictures showed the window was up. His family and a woman who saw him every day said he always read a book as he waited for one of his kids to get of the bus. His family also said he disliked guns and never owned one.

In any case, the impulse to use lethal force before exhausting other possibilities is still one of the main issues here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:23 pm UTC

Is there a video of the shooting? A bit grim but I would need to see it if available.

Also, I think it might be prudent to issue all cops stun guns, and make THAT the first thing they draw unless the suspect is actually aiming at someone. Of course, being an idiot who likes to think he knows everything, for all I know that will cause the police to kill more people by being even more likely to start shooting their stun guns, which can cause heart attacks and injuries during the takedown.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:06 am UTC

Terence Crutcher was hit with a tazer then shot at the same time.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mambrino » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:20 am UTC

Angua wrote:Terence Crutcher was hit with a tazer then shot at the same time.


From layman's perspective, sounds like a terrible coordination and communication by the officers on the scene.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:44 am UTC

Just to avoid confusion there are two shootings that happened recently here. One where the guy was supposedly reaching into a closed car window and was shot and another where a guy with an actual gun got out of a car and was shot.

It's somewhat interesting that the second one is the one that had the mass protests about it whereas the first one seems like a MUCH more egregious shooting.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:59 am UTC

The second one has people disputing whether or not he did have an actual gun though. Apparently the mayor will be reviewing the dash cam footage, but they're not going to release it (which I feel is fair enough). I would have preferred if the footage was being reviewed by some sort of judge/court but I guess the mayor will have to do.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:09 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Also, I think it might be prudent to issue all cops stun guns, and make THAT the first thing they draw unless the suspect is actually aiming at someone. Of course, being an idiot who likes to think he knows everything, for all I know that will cause the police to kill more people by being even more likely to start shooting their stun guns, which can cause heart attacks and injuries during the takedown.


Everyone visualizes taser use as displacing guns. In practice, people use the tasers as a compliance tool, and still use the guns.

Training issue, maybe, but then we get back to just training them not to shoot everyone in the first place. The root problem isn't a lack of tech.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:17 pm UTC

Trump said he found the footage of Crutcher's shooting "troubling", and that it looked like the guy was complying. I'm pretty much completely numb to the terrible things Trump says now, when he says something non-terrible it knocks me sideways.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SDK » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:26 pm UTC

Didn't Trump also say that the police should start frisking people at random?

Aaaand after writing that I did a quick google. Indeed, he did say that, but I was also shocked to learn that many US cities already do this, despite it being deemed unconstitutional and unfairly targeting minorities. Well done, American police. I didn't think you could surprise me anymore.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:01 pm UTC

North Carolina hasn't had a good national headline in a while.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PeteP » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:42 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Didn't Trump also say that the police should start frisking people at random?

Aaaand after writing that I did a quick google. Indeed, he did say that, but I was also shocked to learn that many US cities already do this, despite it being deemed unconstitutional and unfairly targeting minorities. Well done, American police. I didn't think you could surprise me anymore.

Don't worry it is his solution for violence in black communities (or at least the question he answered was about that) so we can probably assume it won't be entirely random and will uphold the unfair targeting instead!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:35 am UTC

And remember, my friends, future events such as these will affect you in the future.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:17 am UTC

I count 12 shots, one slightly blurry as the officer shooting is behind a tree, evenly spaced as if it's SOP to empty the entire magazine into the target.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:07 am UTC

So, I keep seeing on facebook a lot of ex-military people saying that they had a lot of de-escalation training they were supposed to do before firing at someone. Does anyone have a more official source for that?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:46 pm UTC

Well at least in the Israeli military, during training we're told to do the following:
1. Call out "Stop where you are"
2. Call you "Stop where you are or I shoot"
3. Cock your rifle twice
4. Shoot a warning shot in the air
5. Shoot at their feet
6. Shoot at center of mass (torso)

While also calling out the equivalent in Arabic as well (which we are taught).

Obviously you're only supposed to continue to the next step following the previous one's failure to stop the target.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:25 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Well at least in the Israeli military, during training we're told to do the following:
1. Call out "Stop where you are"
2. Call you "Stop where you are or I shoot"
3. Cock your rifle twice
4. Shoot a warning shot in the air
5. Shoot at their feet
6. Shoot at center of mass (torso)

While also calling out the equivalent in Arabic as well (which we are taught).

Obviously you're only supposed to continue to the next step following the previous one's failure to stop the target.


Step 4 (and 5 to a lesser degree) seems pretty damn dangerous in any type of urban situation. Are these specifically for when you're in the field or something? Doing that in a city seems like a terrible idea.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:31 pm UTC

I was a non-combatant (but still had my own rifle) and this was mostly for guard duty on our base. So no, not really for city interaction. Presumably they had other training.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:13 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Well at least in the Israeli military, during training we're told to do the following:
1. Call out "Stop where you are"
2. Call you "Stop where you are or I shoot"
3. Cock your rifle twice
4. Shoot a warning shot in the air
5. Shoot at their feet
6. Shoot at center of mass (torso)

While also calling out the equivalent in Arabic as well (which we are taught).

Obviously you're only supposed to continue to the next step following the previous one's failure to stop the target.


This is essentially the same for US military training as well. Warning shot is context dependent, and not required. Shooting at feet is not a step. But you are obviously supposed to call commands, loudly and clearly, in simple words, while making intent to stop using deadly force plain.

You're not supposed to just light up the whole area with no prior attempt to de-escalate, save for during active combat scenarios.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby New User » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:07 pm UTC

Angua wrote:So, I keep seeing on facebook a lot of ex-military people saying that they had a lot of de-escalation training they were supposed to do before firing at someone. Does anyone have a more official source for that?
Zohar wrote:Well at least in the Israeli military, during training we're told to do the following:
1. Call out "Stop where you are"
2. Call you "Stop where you are or I shoot"
3. Cock your rifle twice
4. Shoot a warning shot in the air
5. Shoot at their feet
6. Shoot at center of mass (torso)

While also calling out the equivalent in Arabic as well (which we are taught).

Obviously you're only supposed to continue to the next step following the previous one's failure to stop the target.

This doesn't describe de-escalation. You're describing the appropriate steps for escalation of force. De-escalating is what you'd do to lower the aggression or lethality employed by either party. Or, maybe I'm wrong? Are these just different words used to describe the same thing? Is escalating force until the opposing party submits considered de-escalation?

When I was in the US Army, I never heard of de-escalation. The only guidance I remember was all about appropriate escalation of force (similar to what Zohar described), and de-escalating a situation wasn't discussed. This was only when I was overseas in the Iraq conflict. Presumably, we were expected to escalate force until the enemy party submits. Also, the guidance I heard while there was that lethal force is acceptable if you're being attacked (I don't remember there being any in-depth definition of what it means to feel you're being attacked, or any differentiation between being attacked with obviously lethal force, like say, a rifle or grenade, compared to being attacked by a thrown rock or shoe). Essentially that can mean that any display of force against the US forces could be met with lethal force. I know for a fact we could respond with lethal force if the enemy displays lethal force (meaning if they point a weapon at you, or in the case of personnel designated as enemies by the command, simply having weapons in their possession is grounds for lethal application of force). What I'm getting at here is that escalation of force for the military is different from what we expect from the police. I have never been an armed guard, except when I was in Iraq. Any guard duty I performed in garrison was unarmed, so if there was any kind of armed intruder, I guess I could just ask nicely that they de-escalate the situation for me. There were armed guards at key facilities in military bases, it's just that I never actually performed that duty. Maybe they heard of de-escalation, but I doubt it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:13 pm UTC

Hmm, that's a good point. I mean, it's clear most cops involved in these cases don't follow escalation of force procedures like I described in the first place, but it's a good question whether or not they receive training to try and de-escalate matters. As natraj mentioned earlier in the threat, EMT personnel certainly do (and practice it in their work), it should be par for the course for policemen to do so as well.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:25 pm UTC

New User wrote:This doesn't describe de-escalation. You're describing the appropriate steps for escalation of force. De-escalating is what you'd do to lower the aggression or lethality employed by either party. Or, maybe I'm wrong? Are these just different words used to describe the same thing? Is escalating force until the opposing party submits considered de-escalation?


That's a fair point. Proper escalation and de-escalation are different things. The first is definitely trained in the military, the latter rarely is.

But even the first seems to be an issue in many of these events, where police escalate unnecessarily. It's not merely a failure to de-escalate, it's a pattern of unwarranted escalation.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:59 pm UTC

It's been a while, but the wording for guard duty was along the lines of: "You may only use lethal force to stop a person or persons from committing an act likely to cause death or very serious injury to someone other than the person or persons committing the act and if no other means of stopping them are available." That means we wouldn't be allowed to shoot people for throwing shoes. If you've got a mate standing by with a foam fire extinguisher, that rules out crude petrol bombs, too. On operations, you could be told to shoot to prevent theft of or damage to mission-critical equipment, which could include your generator's fuel supply, but thrown shoes are unlikely to break anything a squaddie could even get to the field without breaking it himself.

The first place I can recall hearing of "de-escalation" was in the article about the Scottish police training the US police in the subtle art of not killing every black male they see (after the NYPD chief found out that Scottish police aren't routinely armed with guns, last had a fatality in the line of duty back in 1996 and, across the whole country, shoot people an average of once every five years).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:53 am UTC

I wander into U-Tube for a little mindless entertainment.
What I find is, 'The News, in the US, is paid entertainment'.

The Pulitzer Prize is still a serious award for writing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize

The following is an interview of a Pulitzer Prize winner.
The interview is about the work that won him the Prize.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXi3dKUgRy0

He says, "Three people are shot and killed by Police in the US, everyday."
Those three people are more likely than not to be brown or black people.

It may be acceptable.
It may still be legal.

It is the job Police are trained and paid to do.
I maintain it remains Police Misbehavior.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:40 pm UTC

And remember, my friends, future events such as these will affect you in the future.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:39 am UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the ... by-police/
Image
1348 deaths caused by police. An additional 1,053 people died in local jails and 3,927 died in state and federal prisons, an increase over last year.* This data isn't cheap, it costs $40,000 a month to track police related deaths.

*This includes justified and unjustified deaths where police were involved. The article isn't clear if the increase is due to better data, or the situation getting worse.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:54 am UTC

The people of the USA live in an active War Zone.
Gee. What are The People to do to make Peace?

I know what most are doing.
Nothing. Watching it on TV.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:01 am UTC

sardia wrote: This data isn't cheap, it costs $40,000 a month to track police related deaths.


I understand you're paraphrasing the article, but this is bullshit.

a $40,000 a year salary is a little over $19 an hour. This is the low-middle end of a salary for a white-collar job, and is around the upper end of "lower class" or the low end of "Middle Class" depending on who's numbers you find.

Having that expenditure per month equates to twelve number jockeys pouring over the police-involved fatality numbers every year -For The Entire United States of America-. Let me reiterate: Twelve people analysing data for a population of well over 300 million.

And it's not even twelve people doing the analysis if you factor in building rent, electricity, administrative costs, IT support, ongoing software development, etc., etc., etc., all are probably part of that $480,000 a year. But even if their numbers are strictly the salaries of those twelve people in a room pouring over police and news reports, -It's the expense for an office of twelve people.

RTI International, the company doing the work, may not be allocated that kind of money by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, or they may be allocated just barely that much so to them it feels expensive, but for what amounts to the salaries of twelve low-paid desk jockeys is -not- terribly expensive in the larger picture of national data gathering and analysis and well worth the money spent as it helps us address the problems of police abuse of power.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:21 pm UTC

Bristol police taser their own black race relations adviser after mistaking him for wanted man

Judah Adunbi, 63, was a founding member of the city’s Independent Advisory Group, which works to improve ties between the police and ethnic minority communities.

He was tasered after apparently being mistaken for a wanted suspect by two police officers.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:26 pm UTC


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby pogrmman » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:23 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Just going to leave this here.

French Police Sodomized Young Black Man By Accident: Investigators


How can that be accidental? Seriously -- the excuse they have in the article seems weak, especially when mixed with all the rest of the stuff it says happened to the guy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:10 pm UTC

Jeff Sessions: ‘It’s not insensitive to civil rights to stop monitoring police’

Attorney General Jeff Sessions said his Justice Department would pull away from Obama-era pledges to monitor police departments in a bid to counter the high number of deaths at the hands of law enforcement.

Mr Sessions said that former President Barack Obama’s moves to provide federal oversight to the police served to undermine their effectiveness across the US.

"We need, so far as we can, in my view, help police departments get better, not diminish their effectiveness," Mr Sessions said to the National Association of Attorneys General.

"And I’m afraid we’ve done some of that. So we’re going to try to pull back on this, and I don’t think it’s wrong or mean or insensitive to civil rights or human rights."


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:How can that be accidental? Seriously -- the excuse they have in the article seems weak, especially when mixed with all the rest of the stuff it says happened to the guy.

The authorities have charged the police officers with assault and rape; The defendants' legal team are claiming the injuries were accidental. Everyone is entitled to a defence, however laughable it may seem. I'm sure the court will come to the correct conclusion.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby pogrmman » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:54 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
pogrmman wrote:How can that be accidental? Seriously -- the excuse they have in the article seems weak, especially when mixed with all the rest of the stuff it says happened to the guy.

The authorities have charged the police officers with assault and rape; The defendants' legal team are claiming the injuries were accidental. Everyone is entitled to a defence, however laughable it may seem. I'm sure the court will come to the correct conclusion.



I support everybody getting a defense. It would be horrible to have a legal system in which this wasn't the case.

However, the defense they are using doesn't seem particularly strong here... Granted, I didn't see the event, so I don't know the full story, just what has been reported.

I am glad to see that they went through and charged the officers involved.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:10 am UTC

pogrmman wrote:I support everybody getting a defense. It would be horrible to have a legal system in which this wasn't the case.

However, the defense they are using doesn't seem particularly strong here... Granted, I didn't see the event, so I don't know the full story, just what has been reported.

I agree, but what other defence could they invoke? It's clear the injuries occurred and it's clear that the police caused them; The only angle the defence team can possibly take is that the injuries were accidental. They'd be failing in their duty not to try.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:51 am UTC

elasto wrote:
pogrmman wrote:I support everybody getting a defense. It would be horrible to have a legal system in which this wasn't the case.

However, the defense they are using doesn't seem particularly strong here... Granted, I didn't see the event, so I don't know the full story, just what has been reported.

I agree, but what other defence could they invoke? It's clear the injuries occurred and it's clear that the police caused them; The only angle the defence team can possibly take is that the injuries were accidental. They'd be failing in their duty not to try.

They could claim it was necessary and justified self defense.


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