Police misbehavior thread

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Dauric
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:01 pm UTC

speising wrote:
elasto wrote:
pogrmman wrote:I support everybody getting a defense. It would be horrible to have a legal system in which this wasn't the case.

However, the defense they are using doesn't seem particularly strong here... Granted, I didn't see the event, so I don't know the full story, just what has been reported.

I agree, but what other defence could they invoke? It's clear the injuries occurred and it's clear that the police caused them; The only angle the defence team can possibly take is that the injuries were accidental. They'd be failing in their duty not to try.

They could claim it was necessary and justified self defense.


Given the injuries... That sounds terrifyingly worse.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:20 am UTC

Yeah. Given that the guy's clothes were removed and he was anally raped, claiming that doing so was 'necessary and justified' paints the officers in an even worse light than simply saying 'we didn't mean it to happen'.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Netreker0 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:09 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
pogrmman wrote:I support everybody getting a defense. It would be horrible to have a legal system in which this wasn't the case.

However, the defense they are using doesn't seem particularly strong here... Granted, I didn't see the event, so I don't know the full story, just what has been reported.

I agree, but what other defence could they invoke? It's clear the injuries occurred and it's clear that the police caused them; The only angle the defence team can possibly take is that the injuries were accidental. They'd be failing in their duty not to try.


I don't think you understand what an attorney's obligations are. An attorney of any sort has an ethical obligation not to submit any argument or defense that isn't factually or legally justifiable. This isn't widely enforced with sanctions--often, it happens because a young attorney or even an experienced one in a particularly complex area of law makes an honest mistake, and we don't want to punish that too harshly, but this also means that some (well, probably many) less honest attorneys can get away with very closely skirting the line of what is a plausible argument.

But the ethical obligations are clear. For a defense attorney, this means you're not supposed to let your client testify if you know he plans to lie, and you're not supposed to raise a defense that you know to be based on a lie, such as blaming someone else when you know your client did it. Their duty in general is not "do anything and everything possible, no matter how dishonest or illegal, to get their client off," but rather to provide the best legally and factually supportable defense possible. In the case of a client they know did something wrong, that means holding the prosecution to the very high standard of proof required by law. The prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This means proving every single element of the crime. In theory, you don't need to prove your client innocent because, according to the law, it's the burden of the state to prove that you committed the crime, and we don't believe that a random person should be forced to jump through hoops to prove that you're a good person simply because someone, somewhere got it in their head to accuse you of a crime.

I know this doesn't sound like much, but in our system it's actually a tremendous value-added. There are bad convictions all the time (by that, I mean cases the prosecution legally should not have won, and not necessarily cases where the convicted person was actually innocent.) When you have a PD handling a few hundred cases a year, he might not notice that the prosecution hasn't actually provided evidence supporting their claim that a certain aspect of the crime happened, or do a great job pointing out that the shaky case was far short of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There are even appellate cases where a conviction was overturned, not because the crime was later found unconstitutional or the police did something wrong, but because a panel of judges looked at the evidence and concluded that, even if you assume take all of the prosecution's evidence to be 100% credible, it still didn't add up to a crime. Juries are human--sometimes they convict people because they're tired and want to go home, they can't get past their own biases and preconceived notions, or they don't really understand the law the trial is based on. Sometimes, they simply don't like the defendant. A good, honest defense attorney's job is to get the jury past any issues that would prevent them from giving the defendant a fair trial, and then do everything they can to convince them that in a fair trial, the government has fallen short.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:09 am UTC

Netreker0 wrote:I don't think you understand what an attorney's obligations are. An attorney of any sort has an ethical obligation not to submit any argument or defense that isn't factually or legally justifiable.

If the jury buys the argument, then by definition it was factually and legally justifiable. You are putting the cart before the horse here in attempting to pre-judge.

But the ethical obligations are clear. For a defense attorney, this means you're not supposed to let your client testify if you know he plans to lie, and you're not supposed to raise a defense that you know to be based on a lie, such as blaming someone else when you know your client did it.

Their duty in general is not "do anything and everything possible, no matter how dishonest or illegal, to get their client off,"

Therefore I'd assume that they don't know it to be based on a lie.

The defence team could of course be acting dishonestly or illegally - just as anyone, anywhere, at any time could be - but I (unlike you?) am presuming them innocent until proven guilty on this front.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:08 am UTC

elasto wrote:If the jury buys the argument, then by definition it was factually and legally justifiable.
Uh.... no. That's like saying that if the electorate votes in a blundering racist misogynistic egocentric factually challenged misspeller, that the resulting hairdo is by definition factually and legally Tremendous as the Leader of the once Free World.

If the jury buys it, then that is the decision. That doesn't make it justifiable. It just makes it over with.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:04 am UTC

Netreker0 wrote:I don't think you understand what an attorney's obligations are. An attorney of any sort has an ethical obligation not to submit any argument or defense that isn't factually or legally justifiable. This isn't widely enforced with sanctions--often, it happens because a young attorney or even an experienced one in a particularly complex area of law makes an honest mistake, and we don't want to punish that too harshly, but this also means that some (well, probably many) less honest attorneys can get away with very closely skirting the line of what is a plausible argument.


I'm pretty sure that if this was done via the testimony of the defendants (I don't see how else it would have been introduced) and they want to give the testimony, this is actually a really tricky legal scenario with no clear answer. To report on the defendant would violate confidentiality rules and to refuse to present the defense would violate either the defendants right to a lawyer or their right to testify in their own defense. I don't know about you but I really don't want to live under a legal structure where any of those protections can be thrown out so I'll take the bad with the good.

http://www.law.ua.edu/pubs/jlp_files/is ... 3art11.pdf

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sizik » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:50 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Hands up, still shot.
On Wednesday, WSVN aired a cell phone video reportedly taken moments before caregiver Charles Kinsey was shot by North Miami police. In it, Kinsey, who survived, can be see lying on the ground with his hands raised, explaining that him and the autistic man he was assisting are unarmed.


The officer has now been charged.
Jonathon Aledda, a four-year veteran of the department, faces charges of attempted manslaughter, a third-degree felony, and culpable negligence, a first-degree misdemeanor, according to the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

Jeronimo Yanez, the Minnesota police officer who fatally shot Philando Castile during a traffic stop last year, was found not guilty of second-degree manslaughter Friday.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/us/philan ... index.html

Not surprising, but what the hell? What kind of evidence does it take to find a policeman guilty? It seems Philandro did everything he was supposed to do (or what apologists say POC should do when dealing with cops), and yet was still killed in front of his fiancee and four year old kid, after being pulled over on a routine traffic stop.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:58 pm UTC

The only way they could possibly be found guilty is if they could prove premeditation.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:42 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:The only way they could possibly be found guilty is if they could prove premeditation.

No, the defense was demanding that the officer be given some deference because of the drugs and the speed of the killing. The jury agreed with that, but it doesn't rule out a civil case. ( Civil cases only need more likely than not compared to beyond a reasonable doubt)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Opus_723 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:55 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:The only way they could possibly be found guilty is if they could prove premeditation.

No, the defense was demanding that the officer be given some deference because of the drugs and the speed of the killing. The jury agreed with that, but it doesn't rule out a civil case. ( Civil cases only need more likely than not compared to beyond a reasonable doubt)


I know I should go track that down in it's proper context, but what the hell? The speed of the killing?

Like, 'it's not my fault, I killed him so fast I couldn't possibly have had time to think things through"?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:10 am UTC

More and more, I'm thinking that police officers should stop being trained to reach for their gun first, and instead have the taser be the primary weapon, but fired about as often as they currently fire guns rather than being a 'when all you have is a hammer' sort of thing.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:53 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:The only way they could possibly be found guilty is if they could prove premeditation.

No, the defense was demanding that the officer be given some deference because of the drugs and the speed of the killing. The jury agreed with that, but it doesn't rule out a civil case. ( Civil cases only need more likely than not compared to beyond a reasonable doubt)

Civil suits only penalize the taxpayers; the officer is generally immune from civil penalties if what they did was part of their dties.

Since Mr. Yanez was found not guilty, he will almost certainly be ruled immune.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby hollow » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:11 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:More and more, I'm thinking that police officers should stop being trained to reach for their gun first, and instead have the taser be the primary weapon, but fired about as often as they currently fire guns rather than being a 'when all you have is a hammer' sort of thing.

I imagine the fear is that cops might just default on tasers more often, for situations that don't really require use of force. Presumably, the taser being less likely to kill could mean that there's less of a stigma against its use (and abuse) over something like a pistol. Of course, tasers aren't guaranteed less than lethal, so more casual uses could mean more deaths from cardiac arrest. (This is the same argument against "shoot them in the leg" ideas.)

Tasers are also a lot less reliable in stopping people, too. So I doubt police unions will let such a change go unopposed.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

As a forewarning, the report is really long, and there's been almost no resolution, so everything reported here is alleged. Albeit, with lots of supporting evidence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/17/us/m ... banks.html
Spoiler:
Go to St. Augustine, he was told, to reinvestigate the death of 24-year-old Michelle O’Connell, shot while packing to leave her deputy sheriff boyfriend, Jeremy Banks. The fatal bullet came from his service weapon.
Agent Rodgers had been summoned here twice before to answer questions about cases involving the St. Johns County sheriff, David B. Shoar — examining whether his officers had drawn their guns and used pepper spray to break up a peaceful graduation party in an African-American neighborhood (they had), and whether a political supporter of the sheriff had engaged in improper conduct with minors (he hadn’t).
This time, the stakes were higher. There was a dead body — a single mother of a 4-year-old girl — and the sheriff’s office had chosen to investigate its own deputy, poorly as it turned out. Because detectives quickly concluded that Ms. O’Connell had taken her own life, they had done little investigating.
Now, with crucial evidence missing or unexamined, Agent Rodgers had to make sense of the mess. And that meant possibly antagonizing one of Florida’s most powerful sheriffs. A mercurial leader, unctuous one moment, bitingly critical the next, Sheriff Shoar didn’t countenance challenges to his authority. He had resisted the O’Connell family’s demands for an outside review of the case for nearly five months.
When the sheriff finally agreed, his office had one requirement — that Agent Rodgers, and only Agent Rodgers, conduct the investigation, according to Steve Donaway, a former supervisor with the state investigative agency. (The sheriff disputes that.)
It took the agent only two weeks to find evidence that fundamentally changed the complexion of the case. Two neighbors told him that they had heard cries for help on the night of the shooting, prompting the medical examiner to change his ruling from suicide to “shot by another.” As the investigation moved toward homicide, the local state attorney suddenly recused himself, prompting the governor to appoint a special prosecutor.
But the medical examiner changed his mind yet again, and the special prosecutor, citing insufficient evidence, closed the case without bringing charges. And for a year, that’s where the case stood — closed if not forgotten.
Then, in 2013, I flew to St. Augustine and asked the sheriff for files related to the shooting. I came to write about the O’Connell case as part of an examination, in collaboration with the PBS public affairs program “Frontline,” of how the police investigate domestic violence allegations in their ranks.
My record request was routine, but Sheriff Shoar didn’t view it that way. In his world, an out-of-town reporter “poking around” a closed case “kind of stunk,” he said, and he alerted prosecutors so they wouldn’t be caught off guard. But when the sheriff learned that I had already asked Agent Rodgers’s supervisor for an interview, and that he had not been notified, the sheriff erupted, suspecting, incorrectly, that the agency was behind my visit.

TLDR Sheriff controls town with iron fist and patronage jobs. All the sheriff's deputies have a history of domestic violence, and there was a report of a suicide with a deputy's wife. The suicide turns out is a coverup for a deputy murdering his wife. The sheriff orders everything covered up, and then the special agent investigating the sheriff's office to be investigated and fired.

It's a long convulted story, and most of it is just coverups, intimidation, and bribery. Basic example,
For the O’Connells, the grief has been compounded by the sheriff’s embrace of one of their own — Michelle’s brother Scott. Mr. O’Connell was fired from the sheriff’s office for losing his temper after learning there would be no charges in his sister’s death. But Scott was rehired after he concluded that Agent Rodgers manipulated the family into believing that Ms. O’Connell had been murdered.Patty O’Connell, who now cares for Ms. O’Connell’s 10-year-old daughter, Alexis, wants nothing to do with her son Scott. “There cannot be forgiveness until he says he is sorry for lying about Michelle,” she said. “I know it must eat at his conscience.”
Scott O’Connell did not return a message seeking comment.
The two local medical examiners who sided with Sheriff Shoar experienced their own setbacks in March, when the Florida Medical Examiners Commission accused them of violating state rules in their handling of the O’Connell case.

So yea, this is what happens when law enforcement gets sizable power over a community. You get a bunch of thugs covering up their own crimes and then trying to get everyone corrupted too. The town is deeply divided, most of the ones who matter still think the sheriff's office is innocent. I found this man's statement very appropriate.
Chief Hardwick criticized parts of Agent Rodgers’s inquiry, but in an interview with F.D.L.E. investigators, he called the sheriff’s 152-page report “a biased opinion.”
“I’ll be honest with you,” he said. “I’m tainted. Everybody’s tainted. The media’s tainted us. The conversations among cops that are local has tainted us.”
What happened, he said, is not fair to anybody. But, he added, “that’s just the way it is.”

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:48 pm UTC

Cops Sent Warrant To Facebook To Dig Up Dirt On Woman Whose Boyfriend They Had Just Killed

The Officer Yanez case; after Castile was killed, his girlfriend Diamond Reynolds made and posted a video of the aftermath. As part of their "investigation", the cops sent a warrant to Facebook for, well, everything about Ms. Reynolds. As if something she did would prove the killing of Castile was justified.

Spoiler:
To "win" at killing citizens, you must start the spin immediately. Yanez spun his own, speaking to a lawyer less than two hours after killing Castile. Local law enforcement did the same thing. Documents obtained by Tony Webster show Special Agent Bill O'Donnell issued a warrant to Facebook for "all information retained" by the company on Diamond Reynolds, Castile's girlfriend. This was to include all email sent or received by that account, as well as "chat logs," which presumably means the content of private messages. The warrant also demands any communications that may have been deleted by Reynolds, as well as metadata on photos or videos uploaded to Facebook. It came accompanied with an indefinite gag order.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:10 pm UTC

hollow wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:More and more, I'm thinking that police officers should stop being trained to reach for their gun first, and instead have the taser be the primary weapon, but fired about as often as they currently fire guns rather than being a 'when all you have is a hammer' sort of thing.

I imagine the fear is that cops might just default on tasers more often, for situations that don't really require use of force. Presumably, the taser being less likely to kill could mean that there's less of a stigma against its use (and abuse) over something like a pistol. Of course, tasers aren't guaranteed less than lethal, so more casual uses could mean more deaths from cardiac arrest. (This is the same argument against "shoot them in the leg" ideas.)

Tasers are also a lot less reliable in stopping people, too. So I doubt police unions will let such a change go unopposed.


Police chiefs to discuss offering guns to all frontline officers

Also up for discussion, sources say, is the introduction of more specially trained armed officers in cars, and offering handguns to some patrol officers as well as the idea that all frontline officers could be offered training to carry a gun.

One option in the paper for getting armed officers more quickly to the scene of an attack is for officers to be offered a sidearm, like officers in the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI).

In a recent survey of Met officers, the Metropolitan Police Federation found just over half said they would carry a gun routinely if asked to do so. One in 10 said they would quit rather than carry a firearm.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:15 pm UTC

I guess this is technically police misbehavior--the best kind of police misbehavior.

German police officers expelled after public sex, group urination, and a strip tease involving a service weapon ahead of G20 summit

Spoiler:

More than 200 police officers in Germany have been sent home for bad behaviour, after throwing a wild party that included a couple having sex in public, men urinating in the open, and an officer performing a striptease and dancing with her gun.

The officers in question were on secondment from the Berlin police to help with security at next week’s G20 summit in Hamburg which will bring Theresa May and Angela Merkel together with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.

More than 20,000 officers are being drafted into the city, with reserved coming from as far away as Austria and the Netherlands. But the Berlin contingent have been sent home in disgrace after staging a party that seems to have shocked their colleagues.



A spokesman for the Berlin police defended the officers, saying they were “only human”.

And one of the officers involved in the party told Bild newspaper he didn’t see what all the fuss was about, because it was just a “normal night for Berlin”.

The German capital prides itself on being a party city. But the policeman’s ball staged in Hamburg appears to have been a wild night even by Berlin standards.

The police reportedly got bored with the lack of television at their makeshift accommodation in converted shipping containers, and decided to stage their own entertainment.
FAQ | G20

What ensued reportedly included officers watching as two of their number had sex on top of a security fence, a female officer performing an exotic dance in her bathrobe, using her gun as a prop, and several male officers standing in a row and urinating together in public.

The music went on until 6.30am.

Colleagues from another German police force, North Rhine-Westphalia, shared the Berlin officers' accommodation but did not join the party.

When they came to complain about the noise at 3.30am, a fight reportedly ensued.

The night of excess may have played into the Berlin mythology, but it has come as something of an embarrassment to the city’s police.

“Good behaviour is important for police officers,” Thomas Neuendorf, a spokesman for the Berlin force, told German television.

“To put it plainly, you cannot party like crazy and f*** in public.

“We are talking about heavy drinking in their free time before an assignment and these are not 16-year-olds on a school trip. We do not have all the details yet but there are pictures and we have asked for statements. There will be consequences.”


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:42 am UTC

The police reportedly got bored with the lack of television at their makeshift accommodation in converted shipping containers, and decided to stage their own entertainment.


I'm assuming that sounds much worse than it actually is, right? Like "coverted shipping containers" were actually completely made up to be accommodations, rather than say throwing some lighting and a bed into an actual shipping container?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HES » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:14 pm UTC

I presume it was just written by someone who doesn't know what a portacabin is.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

Image search suggests it really is made of shipping containers.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Liri » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:35 am UTC

I'm buds with an architect who's fond of using shipping containers in his buildings.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:35 am UTC



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