Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:05 pm UTC

I'm saying he was criminally irresponsible to let that lead him to firing on an unarmed suspect. Why wasn't there more emphasis on warning Brown that he had a weapon, and ordering him to stand down?


Mike Brown was already shot in the hand when he was later gunned down by Darren Wilson.

Brown knew Wilson had a gun and that it was drawn. He charged at Darren Wilson anyway. We don't know why, but there are two witnesses (not-Wilson mind you, maybe more) that saw this happen... and the witnesses make it clear that Darren Wilson only shot at Mike Brown while Mike Brown was charging at him.

Aside from the hand-wound, which is only explained by Brown attempting to grab the gun from Darren Wilson.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:08 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:08 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
leady wrote:Statistically then these cronically racist cops are remarkably restrained generally given opportunity vs outcome stats by seveal orders of magnitude

Chronically racists cops who aren't genocidal are still racists. Also your baseline comparisons are so bad that it could be considered a joke.

Cops are not chronically racist. This is just a staggering comment. There are about 200,000 officers in the US at various levels who carry firearms and make arrests. Chronic racists as a comment to me would imply systematic racism. A significant percentage. You seriously believe that? A significant percentage of these officers are not white and a huge percentage of the ones that ARE white work with fellow officers that aren't. I know there are people who believe this. I know a significant portion of young black men believe this. It's terrible and honestly the fact that we put up with these opinions to me is a major cause of Michael Brown's death. Society should have explained what the hell police officers were for and that it was his duty under the law to obey.

Civil disobedience is the line. Non-violent free speech is the right of every american. Exercising that free speech sometimes requires going beyond what is legally allowed but it needs to be done in a non-violent way. Michael Brown robbing a convenience store and reaching into a police car is not practicing civil disobedience in the hopes of better race relations. I will cherish Rosa Parks for not giving up her seat but when the police came to arrest her for it she complied. If she had violently attacked them for trying to remove her from her seat the entire gesture is counter-productive. If Michael Brown is a symbol of anything, it's the importance of respecting authority even in a system that has flaws. These lessons were learned a long time ago and I guess most of all it hurts that we need to re-learn them. Ignoring reality in favor of a racist conspiracy and demonstrations turning violent and destructive only distances us from the goal of improving things. Race relations have improved and can improve in the future but only through objectivity, understanding, non-violence, and compassion.

I also fail to see how what is essentially a motive (Wilson = racist) for murder has anything to do with this. It's not like if Wilson is or isn't a racist implies any actual clarity on the events. A cop could be non-racist and guilty or racist and innocent. The only question the grand jury faced is if there is reason to believe he acted incorrectly as a police officer. Motive is not in question. Only after you have evidence to demean him from officer to defendant in a murder trial do you start worrying about what he thought and why he did things. A card carrying KKK member can join the police. It's a free society. That KKK member could even kill a black man in the line of duty and get a damn medal for it. Racism of the defendant is only the issue if Michael Brown's killing was avoidable. The officer says it wasn't. The state must prove otherwise. Saying he's racist doesn't change physical evidence or witness testimony to magically support a different conclusion.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:08 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
I'm saying he was criminally irresponsible to let that lead him to firing on an unarmed suspect. Why wasn't there more emphasis on warning Brown that he had a weapon, and ordering him to stand down?


Mike Brown was already shot in the hand when he was later gunned down by Darren Wilson.

Brown knew Wilson had a gun and that it was drawn. He charged at Darren Wilson anyway.

I still say, 'Mike was not charging he was dead and falling.'

Remember; Mike Brown was a young man.
Men, both young and old, are animals.

Animals keep moving for a while, AFTER they are dead.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:10 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Chronic racists as a comment to me would imply systematic racism.
Yes, congratulations, you have hit upon what everyone else with their head out of their ass has been saying for decades.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:11 pm UTC

You know it's not like you can get the testimony of a medical examiner or anything and ask him if the wounds other than the head wound were enough to suppress Michael Brown. Oh wait, they did? And he said all the other wounds were clearly not sufficient to stop him if he wanted to move? Wow. Reality is so much better than your bullshit.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:15 pm UTC

mosc wrote:You know it's not like you can get the testimony of a medical examiner or anything and ask him if the wounds other than the head wound were enough to suppress Michael Brown. Oh wait, they did? And he said all the other wounds were clearly not sufficient to stop him if he wanted to move? Wow. Reality is so much better than your bullshit.
Which testimony said that?

There were multiple autopsies, and I'm not sure how willing I am to trust the account of the guy who isn't a real medical doctor or the guy who forgot to fucking check his camera batteries before going to the crime scene. (I don't know if those were the same people, but I don't put much weight on the competence of either one if they're different.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:18 pm UTC

addams wrote:I still say, 'Mike was not charging he was dead and falling.'


Perhaps.

Spoiler:
Image


First blood splotch on the ground is 26-feet from baeline. Mike Brown's final resting place is ~50-feet from the baseline. Mike Brown ran at minimum ~24 feet while bleeding towards Darren Wilson.

That's an awfully long way to "fall". Evidence is frank: Mike Brown was charging at Darren Wilson when he died. According to witness testimony (#10 and #30), Wilson fired after Mike started charging at him. So Mike was charging for longer than 24 feet total.

Seems like a very solid self-defense case to me.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:54 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Civil disobedience is the line. Non-violent free speech is the right of every american. Exercising that free speech sometimes requires going beyond what is legally allowed but it needs to be done in a non-violent way. Michael Brown robbing a convenience store and reaching into a police car is not practicing civil disobedience in the hopes of better race relations. I will cherish Rosa Parks for not giving up her seat but when the police came to arrest her for it she complied. If she had violently attacked them for trying to remove her from her seat the entire gesture is counter-productive. If Michael Brown is a symbol of anything, it's the importance of respecting authority even in a system that has flaws. These lessons were learned a long time ago and I guess most of all it hurts that we need to re-learn them. Ignoring reality in favor of a racist conspiracy and demonstrations turning violent and destructive only distances us from the goal of improving things. Race relations have improved and can improve in the future but only through objectivity, understanding, non-violence, and compassion.

Just out of curiosity, you're saying that the American Revolutionary War was absolutely immoral and totally unjustifiable, right?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:56 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
addams wrote:I still say, 'Mike was not charging he was dead and falling.'


Perhaps.

Spoiler:
Image


First blood splotch on the ground is 26-feet from baeline. Mike Brown's final resting place is ~50-feet from the baseline. Mike Brown ran at minimum ~24 feet while bleeding towards Darren Wilson.

That's an awfully long way to "fall". Evidence is frank: Mike Brown was charging at Darren Wilson when he died. According to witness testimony (#10 and #30), Wilson fired after Mike started charging at him. So Mike was charging for longer than 24 feet total.

Seems like a very solid self-defense case to me.

50 ft is a long way to fall.
We can't, in good conscience, shoot a bunch of men to see how far they run or stumble before they lay down.

We know Chickens take a turn or two around the barnyard.
We know Elk run a distance that makes them a pain in the ass to carry out.

How far did Mike Brown run, after he was dead?
I don't know.

It is not right and proper that we discuss that detail in public.
Even though Mike is dead, I feel a duty to guard what little dignity he has left.

His mother does not want to think about it.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:59 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
mosc wrote:Civil disobedience is the line. Non-violent free speech is the right of every american. Exercising that free speech sometimes requires going beyond what is legally allowed but it needs to be done in a non-violent way. Michael Brown robbing a convenience store and reaching into a police car is not practicing civil disobedience in the hopes of better race relations. I will cherish Rosa Parks for not giving up her seat but when the police came to arrest her for it she complied. If she had violently attacked them for trying to remove her from her seat the entire gesture is counter-productive. If Michael Brown is a symbol of anything, it's the importance of respecting authority even in a system that has flaws. These lessons were learned a long time ago and I guess most of all it hurts that we need to re-learn them. Ignoring reality in favor of a racist conspiracy and demonstrations turning violent and destructive only distances us from the goal of improving things. Race relations have improved and can improve in the future but only through objectivity, understanding, non-violence, and compassion.

Just out of curiosity, you're saying that the American Revolutionary War was absolutely immoral and totally unjustifiable, right?
At the very least, when the British went to arrest Adams and Hancock in Lexington in 1775, the militia should have stood down and let them do their job instead of starting the war.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Which testimony said that?

Should I bother replying to that? How about with a quote:
Ormurinn wrote:This seems like a pretty good breakdown of physical evidence vs. testimony;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo ... e-officer/

No, you don't read anything that would actually give you information:
gmalivuk wrote:I'm not interested enough in that argument to go digging through all of everyone's testimony.


I'll do your homework this time:
from post summarizing ME wrote: The earlier wounds would not have been disabling (151:1) and would not have been disabling in combination, until the final wound to the top of the head (159:15).

and the timestamps are reference points in a discussion you can read (likely ignore):
grand jury testimony Volume 3 (Sept. 9): https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370516-grand-jury-volume-3.html
Grand Jury questions of the medical examiner wrote:Ms Whirey: Shirley Whirley. Would the combination, you said you can't talk about the sequence of the shots which occurred first, but the combination of the shots that we've seen before the fatal shot, it still would not render this person disabled.
A: Correct.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:12 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:At the very least, when the British went to arrest Adams and Hancock in Lexington in 1775, the militia should have stood down and let them do their job instead of starting the war.

Oh, yeah, no, I personally believe the Revolutionary War was a lot of immoral hogwash that got too many people killed and ended up hypocritical about its claims of "freedom".

I'm just interested to see if mosc is willing to follow his proposed beliefset to its logical conclusion.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:17 pm UTC

I'd have to pour over the Medical, again.
I don't believe it.

He was Big.
He was Not SuperHuman.

A fucking Elk can't take that much lead.
A Bear can. Mike Brown was not a Bear.

Humans are whimpy.
As animals go, humans are delicate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:22 pm UTC

You don't need a medical record. Two independent witnesses stated that Mike Brown resumed charging after getting shot numerous times. It was only the final shot to the head that stopped him.

The medical record is useful in that it confirms those two witnesses's words.

Witness #10

I'm not sure if he pulled his
pants up or?or whatever he did but I seen some type of movement and he started
charging towards the police officer. The police officer then returned fire, well,
not returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown. Um, if I had to guess the shots and
the-the distance between him and, a, Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to ten
yards and the shots that were fired was four, five to six shots fired and Mr.
Brown was still standing up. Um, and my thoughts was while he's missing this
guy this close, is he-is he hitting him or because Mr. Brown there was no
reaction from him to show that he was been hit. Um, after that, Mr. Brown then
paused. He-he-he stopped running and when he stopped running the police
officer stopped firing. And, then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge
towards him and after that the police officer returned fire and um well not
returned, I'm using wrong. . .a started to fire once more at him. Um, if I had to
guess the rounds that were fired then it would be four to five more shots and
after that Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the ground.


EDIT: Witness #30 states that Mr. Brown was walking towards the police officer, and also thinks Brown was shot in the back. But he does have the move-pause-move movement down, although it was walking instead of "charging". In any case, #30 saw Brown continue to advance towards Wilson after he was shot numerous times, and before the final fatal shot.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:56 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Which testimony said that?

Should I bother replying to that? How about with a quote:
Ormurinn wrote:This seems like a pretty good breakdown of physical evidence vs. testimony;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo ... e-officer/

No, you don't read anything that would actually give you information:
gmalivuk wrote:I'm not interested enough in that argument to go digging through all of everyone's testimony.


I'll do your homework this time:
from post summarizing ME wrote: The earlier wounds would not have been disabling (151:1) and would not have been disabling in combination, until the final wound to the top of the head (159:15).

and the timestamps are reference points in a discussion you can read (likely ignore):
grand jury testimony Volume 3 (Sept. 9): https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370516-grand-jury-volume-3.html
Grand Jury questions of the medical examiner wrote:Ms Whirey: Shirley Whirley. Would the combination, you said you can't talk about the sequence of the shots which occurred first, but the combination of the shots that we've seen before the fatal shot, it still would not render this person disabled.
A: Correct.

I'm not questioning that there was testimony to that effect, I'm questioning who gave it, particularly whether it was the same guy who isn't actually a doctor or the same guy who forgot camera batteries.

Pardon me for potentially placing less weight on the medical testimony of someone unable to do his job as a medical examiner.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:07 am UTC

An aside:
Medical examiners are often Not medical doctors.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:49 am UTC

addams wrote:I'd have to pour over the Medical, again. I don't believe it. He was Big. He was Not SuperHuman. A fucking Elk can't take that much lead. A Bear can. Mike Brown was not a Bear. Humans are whimpy. As animals go, humans are delicate.

As much as I try to avoid reading your posts due to their ability to induce headaches from utterly shit formatting (which I fixed so I could read it), you might consider actually looking at this:
Image
The shot on the top of the head is an entry wound and the shot on the eye is the exit wound of the fatal shot. The other shots, as you will notice, are all along the right edge of the body and in the right arm. I'm sure before the final shot his right arm was in bad shape but he had not sustained any "disabling" wounds. His core and head and legs were untouched before the final shot, as the medical examiner testified.

gmalivuk wrote:I'm not questioning that there was testimony to that effect, I'm questioning who gave it, particularly whether it was the same guy who isn't actually a doctor or the same guy who forgot camera batteries.

Pardon me for potentially placing less weight on the medical testimony of someone unable to do his job as a medical examiner.
Yet another conspirator! Not only did Wilson kill an unarmed man unjustifiably but he got a medical examiner to cover for him!

These comments are slanderous and unjustified.

The grand jury also heard testimony about a second, independent autopsy performed by an forensic expert hired by the Brown family, Michael Baden. Baden testified that his findings were the same as the ME’s (Vol. 23, at 108:1). With regard to the thumb wound suffered by Brown, he concluded that the thumb was just a “few inches” away from Wilson’s gun. He praised the work of a technician who had found in Wilson’s car skin tissue that appeared to be from Michael Brown’s thumb (72:20). Baden also found that Brown’s head was down when the shots were fired (71:2). (In one curious recent note, the pathology assistant heavily involved with Baden’s work was apparently a fraud, as reported in just the last few days by CNN).

The "fraud" was an assistant of Baden, who WAS NOT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER. Baden was an independent examiner paid for at least indirectly by Michael Brown's parents. And the independent examiner agreed with the medical examiner's findings in totality. So, wtf?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:08 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Why even worry all that much about how closely your story matches the evidence when you know you've got a sympathetic prosecutor handling you with kid gloves and "failing" to cross-examine
There is no cross examination in a Grand Jury. And as far as I have read to this point the only Lawyers in the room are the DA's people.
Not exactly cross examination the way it happens in a criminal case, but I mean asking any tough questions at all when the witness (who in this case was the defendant) gives incomplete or inconsistent accounts of some of the details.
Say what. Wilson wouldn't have testified under those circumstances. Would you? If you didn't plea the fifth you would be an idiot. The Grand Jury isn't a court, he would have had no representation and couldn't challenge prosecution witnesses. Not only that but statements he makes could be used against him in court. Don't think so. Guilty or innocent he would be fucked. Had the DA wanted to go there it would have been in court, it's call a preliminary hearing, as I understand it. That is the fucked up system we live under.

The idiot with no degree worked for the family I believe and the idiot with no battery worked for the police.

@Mosc

Assuming that society at large is racist(it is) it isn't unwarranted to believe the police could be as an institution. Even in the deep south not everyone was a loudmouth bigot. Racism can be more subtle than "fuck you n****r". It can be a subtle fear of faces a different color than yours. A greater certainty that the black guy walking down the center of the street is a thug. And when your job is dealing with the ass end of humanity, it acts like a magnifying glass.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:29 am UTC

"the idiot with no battery"

Forgetting a battery does not make someone an idiot or racist or incopentent or intentionally misinterpreting the evidence. He's qualified, you're not.

This is also, by a fucking mile, the most peer reviewed piece of work he will ever do in his career and the only problem you have with the guy with all the detail involved is... he forgot a battery.

Pathetic discource.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:44 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Assuming that society at large is racist(it is) it isn't unwarranted to believe the police could be as an institution. Even in the deep south not everyone was a loudmouth bigot. Racism can be more subtle than "fuck you n****r". It can be a subtle fear of faces a different color than yours. A greater certainty that the black guy walking down the center of the street is a thug. And when your job is dealing with the ass end of humanity, it acts like a magnifying glass.

That's true, Morris.

I don't want to be a Racist.
I'm not.

I had the Truth of your post brought home to me during a time when I was interacting with a lot of Black People and a lot of them were JERKS.
I got to the point, when I saw a Black Guy headed my way, I cringed and avoided him, if possible.

I could see it in myself.
I went to a friend. I said, "Talk to me. I am becoming a Racist."
He was Great. He talked and made fun of those guys. We laughed.

Then, I looked at him.
"Sadat; You're Black."

We were both laughing.
It was ok. I'm ok.

Loads of people don't know.
I think I am fortunate. I know.

We are a Racist Nation.
Not all of us are Racist.

It is not so much the color of our skin.
It IS the content of our character.

There is work to be done on both sides.
The institutions of our nation can help us or kill us.

The nation of the US has been weakened.
The institutions of our nation remain powerful.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:51 am UTC

mosc wrote:Forgetting a battery does not make someone an idiot or racist or incopentent or intentionally misinterpreting the evidence. He's qualified, you're not.

This is also, by a fucking mile, the most peer reviewed piece of work he will ever do in his career and the only problem you have with the guy with all the detail involved is... he forgot a battery.


Gmalivuk is complaining about the battery because it caused missing evidence. The Medical Examiner didn't take pictures of the diseased body at the scene. That said, there may be some missing evidence in theory, but the missing evidence cuts both ways. (in particular: the Gun was washed before it was examined. So they couldn't find any fingerprints of Mike Brown on the gun). This fact in particular only seems to hurt the defendant's case (which frankly, is plenty strong in my opinion / analysis).

For "Pictures of the Body"... no one has disagreed with the facts of the autopsy either, after three independent autopsies. (St. Louis County, FBI, and the private one by Brown's family). So I'm not entirely sure if we can gain any insight into this matter from pictures of the body. (at least, any more insight than the pretty comprehensive reports from the autopsies)

If you want other evidence to build a case, there are plenty of pictures of Mike Brown. The scene of the incident is very well documented by hundreds of photographs on the internet, and tons of youtube videos.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:05 am UTC

mosc wrote:
addams wrote:I'd have to pour over the Medical, again. I don't believe it. He was Big. He was Not SuperHuman. A fucking Elk can't take that much lead. A Bear can. Mike Brown was not a Bear. Humans are whimpy. As animals go, humans are delicate.

As much as I try to avoid reading your posts due to their ability to induce headaches from utterly shit formatting (which I fixed so I could read it), you might consider actually looking at this:
Image
The shot on the top of the head is an entry wound and the shot on the eye is the exit wound of the fatal shot. The other shots, as you will notice, are all along the right edge of the body and in the right arm. I'm sure before the final shot his right arm was in bad shape but he had not sustained any "disabling" wounds. His core and head and legs were untouched before the final shot, as the medical examiner testified.

gmalivuk wrote:I'm not questioning that there was testimony to that effect, I'm questioning who gave it, particularly whether it was the same guy who isn't actually a doctor or the same guy who forgot camera batteries.

Pardon me for potentially placing less weight on the medical testimony of someone unable to do his job as a medical examiner.
Yet another conspirator! Not only did Wilson kill an unarmed man unjustifiably but he got a medical examiner to cover for him!

These comments are slanderous and unjustified.

The grand jury also heard testimony about a second, independent autopsy performed by an forensic expert hired by the Brown family, Michael Baden. Baden testified that his findings were the same as the ME’s (Vol. 23, at 108:1). With regard to the thumb wound suffered by Brown, he concluded that the thumb was just a “few inches” away from Wilson’s gun. He praised the work of a technician who had found in Wilson’s car skin tissue that appeared to be from Michael Brown’s thumb (72:20). Baden also found that Brown’s head was down when the shots were fired (71:2). (In one curious recent note, the pathology assistant heavily involved with Baden’s work was apparently a fraud, as reported in just the last few days by CNN).

The "fraud" was an assistant of Baden, who WAS NOT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER. Baden was an independent examiner paid for at least indirectly by Michael Brown's parents. And the independent examiner agreed with the medical examiner's findings in totality. So, wtf?

Yes.
Your posts are a challenge for me, too.

I don't like your picture.
The bullet wound to Mike's side is missing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:06 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:My position has always been that there is enough conflict and inconsistency between witnesses to warrant an indictment.

How do "conflict and inconsistency" add up to probable cause? Probable cause is more than just a suspicion that someone committed a crime, or uncertainty about someone's innocence. It has to be enough evidence "to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime" (Oxford Handbook to American Law). Trials are not for sorting things out when there's conflict and inconsistency; they're for when there's already enough harmony and consistency to warrant a belief in someone's guilt, and they help to nail down that belief by holding it to the BRD standard.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:22 am UTC

mosc wrote:"the idiot with no battery"

Forgetting a battery does not make someone an idiot or racist or incopentent or intentionally misinterpreting the evidence. He's qualified, you're not.

This is also, by a fucking mile, the most peer reviewed piece of work he will ever do in his career and the only problem you have with the guy with all the detail involved is... he forgot a battery.

Pathetic discource.

I have problems with a lot of things. However if part of his job is to take pictures, than one would think he would have a working camera. When you hire a plumber does he show up and borrow your tools? I am also just as sure his peers will cringe when they read that. My idea of basic core competence requires that you have what you need for the job you do,when you need it. I suppose where you work at is different./shrug I have no idea if he is racist, I don't know him. I didn't question his qualifications, but you can be a qualified idiot. I've seen more than a few of those. Just a guess mind you, but I bet he has a spare battery now.

What kind of discourse did you expect?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:47 am UTC

Gosh.
It did not occur to me until I read your post....
These guys all work together.

No one runs around with a dead battery in their camera.
Not Jr. High School girls, not Soccer moms, not Professionals on duty.

Damn it!
They are going to get away with another one.

Mike is not Real to most people.
That fucking Uniform is!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:58 am UTC

mosc wrote:"the idiot with no battery"

Forgetting a battery does not make someone an idiot or racist or incopentent or intentionally misinterpreting the evidence. He's qualified, you're not.
Failing to do an essential part of your job *does* indicate incompetence, yes. It really does. It doesn't mean he's racist or did it intentionally, but it does mean he wasn't doing his job at that point and makes me wonder why you put so much faith in all the rest of his job.

If a dentist forgot to put a slide in the x-ray machine, would you trust his subsequent diagnosis that you need a root canal?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:51 am UTC

Mistakes aside: do you dispute any of the facts that he brought forward in the case?

I understand your criticism at the guy, but as far as applying things to the discovery of facts... I'm not sure if there's much to be had there. I do believe all three autopsies came back with the same conclusion.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:44 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Not exactly cross examination the way it happens in a criminal case, but I mean asking any tough questions at all when the witness (who in this case was the defendant) gives incomplete or inconsistent accounts of some of the details.

The difference between cross examination and direct examination is whether the lawyer asking the questions is the one who called the witness. It has nothing to do with whether the examination is an attempt to present or an attempt to disprove the witness' side of the story.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:45 am UTC

Okay, so I got my terminology wrong, but the point still stands: no one asked Darren Wilson any hard questions it's supposed to be the job of prosecutors to ask.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Say what. Wilson wouldn't have testified under those circumstances. Would you?

Normal defendants don't get that choice.


gmalivuk wrote:Okay, so I got my terminology wrong, but the point still stands: no one asked Darren Wilson any hard questions it's supposed to be the job of prosecutors to ask.

I understood your point, but the term keeps getting misused and causing confusion, so I thought I'd clarify.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:06 am UTC

K-R wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Say what. Wilson wouldn't have testified under those circumstances. Would you?

Normal defendants don't get that choice.

In a hearing for indictment, the defendant has the option of not testifying.nearly everyone avoids testifying because indictment hearings are heavily stacked to the prosecutor. The fact that the defendant was willing to testify is surprising. The fact the prosecutor kid gloved the defendant implies they had an understanding. Prosecutor takes a dive on questionable murder and cops keep giving prosecutors slam dunk cases. Can you prove that in court? No. Welcome to modern racism. It's not a tea party moron screaming obscenities, it's guys in suits and uniforms looking the other way to enable a culture of impunity.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sizik » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:26 am UTC

Can we move the Ferguson discussion to a separate thread (perhaps in SB for better quality dialog)? I'd like to be able to read about other cases of police badness without having them being drowned out.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:29 am UTC

Sizik wrote:Can we move the Ferguson discussion to a separate thread (perhaps in SB for better quality dialog)? I'd like to be able to read about other cases of police badness without having them being drowned out.

I would like this, too.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:14 am UTC

Gee. Just like grown ups.
The suggestion is seconded and the Thread is moved.

From what I have been told, you are a good bunch of Internet Posters.
I'll see you in SB.

edit: What do you want it named?

Police Officer Darren Wilson vs The People of the United States

Michael Brown Jr (May 14, 1986-August 9, 2014)

Violence and Death on the Streets of America

What? It needs a name.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:34 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
leady wrote:
sardia wrote:
leady wrote:Statistically then these cronically racist cops are remarkably restrained generally given opportunity vs outcome stats by seveal orders of magnitude

Chronically racists cops who aren't genocidal are still racists. Also your baseline comparisons are so bad that it could be considered a joke.


So we agree then that chronically racist genocidal cops are so are rare as to be useless in this case as any sort of comparison for predicting behaviour in the absence of any evidence - good

I'm afraid you don't realize that racist cops still kill abnormal number of minorities. Congrats, our cops have progressed past civil war and barely left Jim crow behind. I would say we agree but that would require you to stop the trolling.


and yet as easily shown the rate of death on arrest correlates to the arrest rate for violent offences and is much less than that for minor non-violent offences. One would expect a divergence if minor offences frequently escalated to suspect death in a disproportiate manner i.e. strongly towards the minor offence proportion.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:30 pm UTC

Citation please. Preferably one that refers to racism in its hypothesis.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:Can we move the Ferguson discussion to a separate thread (perhaps in SB for better quality dialog)? I'd like to be able to read about other cases of police badness without having them being drowned out.

Feel free to start such a thread. It would be hard to split this one with posts about it scattered back to the middle of August.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:21 pm UTC

Way back, before time began, this conversation was inconceivable to me.
Leady writes, the number of deaths at the hands of Uniformed Police in the US conforms nicely to the number of arrests.

That would not have been a possible thing.
It would not have been possible, if the Police were trained to do The Job the way it should be done.

A person is supposed to be safer in our hands than anywhere else.
Now; The Police deliver an uneven heavy handed punishment to each and every victim.

Yes. I have experience.
I don't want any more experience dealing with the US Police.

They are Not universally AssHoles.
Some seem okay-dokay. Not all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:38 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Citation please. Preferably one that refers to racism in its hypothesis.


Just google FBI crime statistics by race, US deaths during arrest by race and do your own comparison. I would expect death on arrest to correlate to arrest data based on serious crimes if the proportionality was crime related and corelate to the general arrest rate otherwise. As I suspected it matches the first .

Now that doesn't eliminate racism generally (I suspect some of the serious arrests are escalations from profiled petty offences) but I do think it kicks in touch the idea that misdemeanor arrests (like Browns would have been) spiral into disproportional death rates. You might argue that profiling finds serious offences that escalate to suspect death, but i'd have to question whether thats a bad thing.

A real study would need to go through each crime to check this cursory analysis holds, but it would need to be an big coincidence for it not to hold up.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:49 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure leady was saying the demographics of death on arrest and arrest in general lines up pretty well. I.e., if black people account for 30% of total arrests, they also account for 30% of deaths on arrest. I couldn't find years that match for those two sets of statistics:

Death on arrest 2003-2009
Arrest demographic 2011

For black people:
Death on arrest (2009): 29.9% (31.7% if you only look at homicide but thats over the whole time period not just 2009)
Arrests (2011): 28.4%

So the deaths on arrest is a little bit higher but not dramatically so.


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