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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:17 pm UTC
by cphite
Zohar wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:the police said that they were glad to have gotten to meet "one of the good people" of their community, which gave me the impression that their day-to-day run-ins must be with people who are a lot more unpleasant to deal with than someone just stressed as hell about their job.

Or that they judge people as being equivocally good or bad without any nuance.


Or sometimes it's just nice to show up to a call like that and find that somebody isn't beating the hell out of somebody else... or it might have been because he answered the door and didn't immediately throw something or start screaming at them... Domestic abuse cases absolutely suck most of the time, regardless of who is doing what; and much of the time they're catching hell from both the victim and the abuser.

In all seriousness, for the cops who respond to those sorts of calls, having someone merely answer the door and explain that they're stressed can be the highlight of their day.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:37 am UTC
by natraj
uhhh no i have seen cops answer the calls for black people who are Just Having A Stressful Day and i have seen them respond with violence to people who were in no way violent to them.

because they look at a black person in emotional crisis and assume they're a threat, without giving the opportunity to prove otherwise. whereas they look at white/many nonblack people and give them the space to talk and explain. i have personally witnessed cops answer the door, see a black person looking distressed and put their hands on their guns and address them aggressively EVEN WHEN the person opens with "i'm sorry officer i just ____" and the like.

idk why y'all are falling over yourselves to excuse the culture of violence that happens with police. yes, #notallcops or whatever but do you seriously think the difference is that poor people/black people/etc are just worse people? there's an ingrained culture of assuming that if you're in certain neighborhoods, if the people who answer the door are black, etc, the cops should be on the defensive, and they act accordingly, and it escalates situations that have zero need for escalation.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:59 am UTC
by Pfhorrest
For my part I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm of a generally anti-authoritarian bent and used to get pulled over almost every night just so the same goddamn cops could run my license and see if I had any warrants on me yet (even though I never did), which would probably get called a DWB if I was black. I was surprised by how non-confrontational that interaction I related last page went, seriously taken aback by it because I assumed it was going to go much worse until it didn't. But I can understand how people whose job involves frequent hostile interactions would tend to get preemptively hostile in response to it. Not that that excuses anything, but it seems a worthwhile thought when brainstorming a practical solution to the problem, like people have been here. Cops frequently have hostile interactions as a normal and expected part of their jobs, and that would tend to make anybody more hostile in response, so how can we make sure that the people entrusted with deadly force don't end up responding like that, but better than just anybody would?

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:51 am UTC
by CorruptUser
...fill the police force with people who aren't naturally hostile to black people, such as other black people?

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:07 am UTC
by sardia
CorruptUser wrote:...fill the police force with people who aren't naturally hostile to black people, such as other black people?

You'd need to exceed a critical amount or else the black cops just emulate the discriminatory behavior of white cops. *

*IIRC it requires like half the force and leadership positions before discrimination stops.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:03 am UTC
by elasto
Pfhorrest wrote:Cops frequently have hostile interactions as a normal and expected part of their jobs, and that would tend to make anybody more hostile in response, so how can we make sure that the people entrusted with deadly force don't end up responding like that, but better than just anybody would?

That doesn't really explain it though as other Western countries don't generally have your problem. Either our cops don't frequently have hostile interactions, or they do but our recruitment or training process keeps them from becoming jaded.

At this point it is a chicken and egg thing: Your cops go into encounters in a hostile and defensive fashion, and the poor and minorities are fearful and defensive in return, but, as I've said before, the cops are the professionals here - the ones who theoretically volunteered for this job in order to serve society - so they are the ones that have to break this cycle of violence and mistrust.

Can't see it taking less than a generation though.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:29 pm UTC
by Chen
There are definitely less killings in many western countries. My gut attributes this to the gun culture in the US, but someone correct if other correlations have been made.

In terms of overall police brutality though, that tends to be a problem anywhere you give people the authority to use force over others. I'm not sure how the numbers actually compare. I mean there's a march against police brutality every year in here in Montreal (which inevitably ends after the marchers end up torching some cars or breaking windows =/).

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:20 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
The core of the problem is that police assume that a suspect is armed until proven otherwise.

All other pieces are irrelevant. Is there racism involved? Of course it is, when the police are less likely to be convinced that the suspect is not armed simply because dark skin is the perfect camouflage for a shiny chrome-plated handgun /snark. But the problem is still that the police assume the person is armed until proven unarmed.

So yes, it's the guns. Police shootings, school massacres, muggings at gunpoint, mothers forced to watch as their own babies descend into the earth, immigrants fleeing from war torn countries shielding their wives with their bodies only for a bullet to be deflected off of the radius in their own forearm and into their wife's chest, that's just the small price for the freedom of being able to buy a gun secondhand without so much as a background check.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:01 pm UTC
by sardia
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/themethodsman/68745
Interesting study in the annals of internal medicine.
the so-called "gun show loophole" dangerous? According to this study appearing in the Annals of Internal Medicine, the answer is yes, if only modestly.

Given the limited political and financial capital, it is prudent to focus resources on changes that are the most effective, instead of least.
If anything, forcing the government to fund scientists for the study of guns would be the most beneficial. We are at the cigarette Maker's destroy the evidence stage. Need to get more funding out there, so we know what works.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:11 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
Not referring to the gun show loophole. That's maybe 2% of all guns used in crimes. I'm referring to the 80% of guns used in crimes that were bought/gifted secondhand from friends/family or fences.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:33 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
elasto wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Cops frequently have hostile interactions as a normal and expected part of their jobs, and that would tend to make anybody more hostile in response, so how can we make sure that the people entrusted with deadly force don't end up responding like that, but better than just anybody would?

That doesn't really explain it though as other Western countries don't generally have your problem. Either our cops don't frequently have hostile interactions, or they do but our recruitment or training process keeps them from becoming jaded.

I thought it was clear that I was tacitly assuming the latter by asking that question (or rather, relaying my impression that previous discussion in this thread tacitly assumed the latter by discussing that question).

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:27 pm UTC
by eran_rathan
CorruptUser wrote:The core of the problem is that police assume that a suspect is armed until proven otherwise.

All other pieces are irrelevant. Is there racism involved? Of course it is, when the police are less likely to be convinced that the suspect is not armed simply because dark skin is the perfect camouflage for a shiny chrome-plated handgun /snark. But the problem is still that the police assume the person is armed until proven unarmed.

So yes, it's the guns. Police shootings, school massacres, muggings at gunpoint, mothers forced to watch as their own babies descend into the earth, immigrants fleeing from war torn countries shielding their wives with their bodies only for a bullet to be deflected off of the radius in their own forearm and into their wife's chest, that's just the small price for the freedom of being able to buy a gun secondhand without so much as a background check.


welll...

on the one hand you've got this, http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man- ... o-53995212

and on the other, http://abcnews.go.com/US/unarmed-man-ki ... d=53902320 (annoying autoplay on the second, apologies.)

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:53 pm UTC
by Mutex
Pants down, don't shoot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43574249

A US police officer shot dead an unarmed man walking in traffic with his trousers down, and his family says it looks like "premeditated murder".

Police dashcam video shows Danny Ray Thomas, 34, walking towards the officer on a road in Houston, Texas, last Thursday before a gunshot rings out.

Deputy Cameron Brewer repeatedly shouts "get down on the ground" before firing. Both the officer and victim are black.

Mr Thomas' family say he suffered from depression after his children died.

(...)

Houston Police Department said in a statement last week that Mr Thomas was found "walking in the middle of the intersection" of a busy road in the city.

Deputy Brewer noticed him with "his pants around his ankles, talking to himself and hitting vehicles as they passed by".

"Thomas then struck a white vehicle, and the driver exited and engaged in a physical altercation with the suspect," Houston police said.

The Harris County Sheriff's deputy saw the fracas and stopped his car to intervene.

"Fearing for his safety, the deputy discharged his duty weapon, striking Thomas once in the chest," said Houston police, which is leading the investigation.

So, a man who is clearly unarmed, and physically prevented from suddenly rushing the officers (or indeed anyone), seems to be having a mental breakdown of some sort. Yup, I can't see a way out of that situation without shooting him dead.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:57 pm UTC
by Weeks
Just one shot? Guess the training has paid off!

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:46 pm UTC
by SecondTalon
CorruptUser wrote:Paramedics aren't armed on the job, but you can bet your ass that if they were there'd be a lot more euthanasia.

Ask any paramedic about “alternative” uses of an oxygen tank.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:53 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
Don't those explode if they rupture, as proven in the documentary "Jaws"? Because all I'm thinking of is a paramedic whacking people over the head with a tank, and I can't imagine that's safe for anyone.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:00 pm UTC
by natraj
if oxygen tanks exploded when used to whack people upside the head there'd be way more ambulances going up in flames in dc every day, the entire city is made out of potholes and medics drive like we're in the fast and the furious those things are getting jostled and banged about constantly

oxygen tanks do explode but i wouldn't look to jaws as a barometer of realism

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:59 pm UTC
by Sableagle
natraj wrote:if oxygen tanks exploded when used to whack people upside the head there'd be way more ambulances going up in flames in dc every day, the entire city is made out of potholes and medics drive like we're in the fast and the furious those things are getting jostled and banged about constantly

oxygen tanks do explode but i wouldn't look to jaws as a barometer of realism


I looked for video of what happens. I found some. Bad language is included.

https://youtu.be/3_El-4k7xds?t=161
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaYVZEDrktE
https://youtu.be/y9agVr5LPx4?t=64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dup0BQqU8Pg

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:31 am UTC
by dubsola

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:05 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
The video on that site does not play for me. If anyone else has that problem, try this one.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:09 am UTC
by Tyndmyr
CorruptUser wrote:...fill the police force with people who aren't naturally hostile to black people, such as other black people?


This is already the case in Baltimore(well over half the force and leadership), and Baltimore PD has a lot of problems. You could, I suppose, argue that it's not intrinsically racist thanks to the police force makeup...but ultimately, if it's a bunch of cops beating the shit out of unarmed people, does it really matter? It's still fucked up.

CorruptUser wrote:So yes, it's the guns. Police shootings, school massacres, muggings at gunpoint, mothers forced to watch as their own babies descend into the earth, immigrants fleeing from war torn countries shielding their wives with their bodies only for a bullet to be deflected off of the radius in their own forearm and into their wife's chest, that's just the small price for the freedom of being able to buy a gun secondhand without so much as a background check.


I dunno. In at least some of these cases, there's very clearly no actual gun. I mean, look at the drop gun thing I posted earlier. They're carrying drop guns specifically in case of shooting people who don't have a gun.

And MD has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, so it ain't that.

Plenty of police brutality happens when it is blindingly obvious that there is no gun there.

natraj wrote:if oxygen tanks exploded when used to whack people upside the head there'd be way more ambulances going up in flames in dc every day, the entire city is made out of potholes and medics drive like we're in the fast and the furious those things are getting jostled and banged about constantly

oxygen tanks do explode but i wouldn't look to jaws as a barometer of realism


This is truth, yeah. You can, in theory, knock the valve off, but I've seen a lot of tanks mistreated, and I've never seen a tank rupture. I'm sure you can get it to happen if you work at it, but paramedics with oxygen tanks are probably not half the danger cops are.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:22 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
Here is a whole big feature on a corrupt task force by the BBC. I have only read part of it so far, but I can already tell this is a Pulitzer Prize worthy report.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:43 pm UTC
by Mutex
Did you mean to include a link?

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:36 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
Yes. Yes I did.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:45 am UTC
by natraj

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm UTC
by Zohar
And they're not even trying to claim they followed proper procedures.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:17 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
So I discovered this the other day, but I think I'll link to it every time there's one of these cases.

Judge rules white girl will be tried as black adult

Spoiler:
This is america; no one should be treated like a black man

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:43 am UTC
by Tyndmyr
Okay, so...a pipe like that doesn't really resemble a gun all that much. This is worse than the bb guns or toy guns...at least those have roughly the right shape, sort of.

This is a valve and a small bent pipe, not even really in a gun like shape, unless one is very imaginative.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:34 am UTC
by Dr34m(4+(h3r
I pointed a knife at a couple of police officers the other day to try to get them to kill me and they didn't even arrest me.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:12 am UTC
by Coyne
Tyndmyr wrote:This is a valve and a small bent pipe, not even really in a gun like shape, unless one is very imaginative.


Hey, any port shape in a storm.

Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:I pointed a knife at a couple of police officers the other day to try to get them to kill me and they didn't even arrest me.


Sanity check needed.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:10 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
Well, it's shiny. In combat situations, the brain shuts down. The frontal lobe along with higher thought ceases to function, and it's all the hindbrain, and it's all about survival without any ability to assess new information. At this point the only thought a person has is any training they've had, and the training that the police have is "perp with gun, SHOOTSHOOTSHOOT!" The police see a person with any object, it's shiny it must be a gun, or it's black it must be a gun, or he's putting his hands down OHSHITHESREACHINGFORHISGUN.

In short, we should test officers for how well they can think in combat situations, train them to not assume everything is a gun, or maybe only let them carry stunguns.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:19 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
Responding to a call /= combat situation.

I think that's the problem, there.

Edit: Upon reflection, that's still too kind. Military folks accept surrender from folks with actual guns all the time, in combat situations, without losing their shit and emptying magazines everywhere.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:31 pm UTC
by jewish_scientist
CorruptUser wrote:In combat situations, the brain shuts down.

Citation Needed

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:41 pm UTC
by Zohar
Also somehow their brain still manages to function when it's a white person.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:53 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
@Tyn

Soldiers shoot surrendering soldiers all the time. You can't compare police shooting people to soldiers not shooting people without comparing frequency.

@JS heres your cite

@Zohar

Rewatch the video of the Mesa Arizona police killing the terrified white guy.

Police shoot unarmed black people more often because they interact with black people more often and thus end up in fight or flight mode with black people more often. You could argue that part of it is because due to unconscious biases (aka a form of racism) being in a confrontation with a black person is more likely to trigger fight or flight than with a white person, but once fight or flight is triggered...

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:01 pm UTC
by Zohar
CorruptUser wrote:@Zohar

Rewatch the video of the Mesa Arizona police killing the terrified white guy.

Police shoot unarmed black people more often because they interact with black people more often and thus end up in fight or flight mode with black people more often. You could argue that part of it is because due to unconscious biases (aka a form of racism) being in a confrontation with a black person is more likely to trigger fight or flight than with a white person, but once fight or flight is triggered...


There are dozens of cases of police calmly walking up to a white man armed with an actual gun and arresting them without firing a shot. Somehow the same doesn't happen with black people. I don't give a shit whether their fight or flight instinct is triggered or inoperative or they roll a die to decide if they want to murder someone. At some point, they're able not to do this to white people and consistently do this to black people. There is nothing unavoidable about this.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:17 pm UTC
by Chen
Zohar wrote:There are dozens of cases of police calmly walking up to a white man armed with an actual gun and arresting them without firing a shot. Somehow the same doesn't happen with black people. I don't give a shit whether their fight or flight instinct is triggered or inoperative or they roll a die to decide if they want to murder someone. At some point, they're able not to do this to white people and consistently do this to black people. There is nothing unavoidable about this.


Please show some numbers for this. The numbers that were looked at back in the thread were showing that once the interaction with the police occurred, the rate of death was similar. It was the rate of interaction which was grossly skewed when it came to black vs white.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84861&p=4304787&hilit=Chen#p4304787

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:48 pm UTC
by Zohar
The fact police are able of arresting violent white men armed with guns means they can do the same with black men. The rates by which it happens are irrelevant.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:54 pm UTC
by CorruptUser
Zohar wrote:The fact police are able of arresting violent white men armed with guns means they can do the same with black men. The rates by which it happens are irrelevant.


Police also kill white people that are unarmed, and do sometimes arrest armed black men.

The fact police are able of arresting violent black men armed with guns means they can do the same with white men.

The rates by which it happens absolutely do matter.

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:15 pm UTC
by Zohar
I'm not sure I understand your point. Police brutality is a recurring issue. We know it can be curbed by policy and training. We know it's avoidable since it doesn't happen in every single encounter. So it should be done. I'm not sure what else you're arguing about.