Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

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Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Aikanaro » Tue May 29, 2012 12:52 am UTC

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/27/11908278-standing-ovation-greets-pastor-charles-worley-who-made-anti-gay-statements?lite
Spoiler:
MSNBC.com wrote:By Isolde Raftery and James Eng, msnbc.com

Although gay rights and anti-hate groups responded with outrage when a North Carolina pastor called for gays and lesbians to be fenced in so they eventually die off, he was greeted with a standing ovation by his church members when he approached the pulpit, the Hickory Record reported.

“I appreciate all the support,” Pastor Charles Worley told the 100 or so congregants at Providence Road Baptist Church near Maiden, N.C., on Sunday, according to the Record. Several members stood and spoke out; others threw up their hands in support of their pastor.

“I’ve got a King James Bible,” Worley said, according to the Record. “I’ve been a preacher for 53 years. Do you think I’m going to bail out on this?”

Demonstrators wanted him to do just that.

More than 1,000 people gathered in front of the Justice Center in nearby Newton waving signs with messages such as "Will God judge me for loving or hating?" and "Don't Fence Me In," Reuters reported. Some people dressed in rainbow colors, and entire families chanted "Preach Love Not Hate."

The protest was in response to a sermon the 71-year-old Worley delivered on May 13, Mother’s Day, apparently in response to President Barack Obama’s public endorsement a few days earlier of same-sex marriage. Just a day before Obama’s announcement, North Carolina voters approved by a considerable margin a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage and same-sex civil unions in their state.

In the sermon, an animated Worley told the congregation of his independent Baptist church:

“I figured a way out, a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers but I couldn’t get it pass the Congress – build a great big large fence, 50 or a hundred mile long. Put all the lesbians in there, fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals. And have that fence electrified so they can’t get out.

“And you know what? In a few years they will die out. You know why? They can’t reproduce. If a man ever has a young'un, praise God he will be the first.”

Worley continued, his voice rising: “I tell ya right now, somebody said, 'Who you gonna vote for?' I ain’t gonna vote for a baby killer and a homosexual lover! You said, ‘Did you mean to say that?’ You better believe I did!”

Worley’s speech went viral after the Catawba Valley Citizens Against Hate grabbed a clip from the church’s web site and posted it on YouTube, Reuters reported.

But Worley may have hindered the efforts of those who champion his cause, Jay Michaelson, author of “Gay vs. God? The Religious Case for Equality” wrote on Huffington Post. He said that Worley’s comments are “undermining the efforts of more moderate gay-bashers like the Family Research Council's Tony Perkins to disguise anti-gay bias as something other than hatred.”

Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, also condemned Pastor Worley’s statements.

“Pastor Worley's vicious and mean-spirited assault on gays and lesbians is bad enough,” Lynn said. “His pulpit command that people not vote for President Obama is a violation of federal tax law. I urge the IRS to act swiftly to investigate this matter."

A religious watchdog group has filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service, asking that it investigate the church’s tax-exempt status. Federal law prohibits non-profit groups from endorsing candidates.

David Freidman, the regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, which fights hate speech, said Worley owed the gay and lesbian community a “swift and unequivocal apology.”

Another Baptist church with a similar name was targeted by people angered by Worley’s sermon. The Providence Baptist Church in Charlotte, N.C., distanced itself from Worley, calling his words “hateful and violent.”

The church web site specifies that it is a “moderate” cooperative Baptist Fellowship congregation of approximately 2,000 members.

“Jesus is our model for living and His presence is our source of strength for life,” said a statement on the church’s web site. “Jesus preached a Gospel of love. So do we. Jesus preached that we love our neighbor, whether that neighbor is like us or not.”


Idiocy, misinterpreted bible-thumping, and bad science all together. Like some unholy trinity, ironically....

EDIT: Really, it should just come down to one thing, if folks THINK about it: Legally recognized gay marriage is inevitable. Whether it's a few years from now, or fifty years from now, sooner or later it IS going to happen. So the question isn't whether you should support it or not....but how you want future generations to view you. Which side of history do you want to be with, civilized, evolving humans, or unbending dinosaurs?
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ghostbear » Tue May 29, 2012 1:26 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:EDIT: Really, it should just come down to one thing, if folks THINK about it: Legally recognized gay marriage is inevitable. Whether it's a few years from now, or fifty years from now, sooner or later it IS going to happen. So the question isn't whether you should support it or not....but how you want future generations to view you. Which side of history do you want to be with, civilized, evolving humans, or unbending dinosaurs?

I don't think that's a good reason to get someone to back off their beliefs at all. There are plenty of reasons these people are wrong -- that history will eventually look on them poorly isn't a particularly compelling one. If anything, it'll make them stick to their guns even more; they'll see the inevitability as a great affront that they must stop at all costs. They should be opposed because of why they're wrong, not because of how many people in the future will disagree with them.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 29, 2012 1:35 am UTC

Oh, I agree there should be a fence built to house all those gays; just make it so large that it surrounds everything except the church*.

*Since Poe's Law may be invoked for those that don't get what I'm saying, "in" and "out" of a fenced area are a matter of perspective. For example, build a fence around the north pole. The north pole is fenced in. Now expand it. More area is fenced in. Expand it until it is approaching Antarctica; is Antarctica now inside or outside the fence? Basically, by fencing in everything that isn't the church, you are fencing the church in.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby ShootTheChicken » Tue May 29, 2012 1:55 am UTC

Trigger warning for homophobic unpleasantness:

Spoiler:
Fencing in all the homosexuals -> the homosexuals all dying out. Doesn't this suggest that homosexual children are only raised by homosexual parents? And doesn't that... not make any sense?
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Cathy » Tue May 29, 2012 2:06 am UTC

Response

Spoiler:
I would assume this idiot is one of the kind that believes 'innocent children' are 'recruited' by teh gay.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue May 29, 2012 2:11 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:So the question isn't whether you should support it or not....but how you want future generations to view you. Which side of history do you want to be with, civilized, evolving humans, or unbending dinosaurs?

I dunno, I've heard of a few never-changing dinosaurs who are pretty rad.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue May 29, 2012 2:13 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:*Since Poe's Law may be invoked for those that don't get what I'm saying, "in" and "out" of a fenced area are a matter of perspective. For example, build a fence around the north pole. The north pole is fenced in. Now expand it. More area is fenced in. Expand it until it is approaching Antarctica; is Antarctica now inside or outside the fence? Basically, by fencing in everything that isn't the church, you are fencing the church in.
Look, we've all played Earthbound. And if any of you haven't, what is WRONG with you?

But I had a similar reaction: "Wait, why can't we build a fence to keep all the hateful bigots inside of?"
The answer is that building fences around entire groups of people is a bad solution to real or perceived social ills, hateful bigots unfortunately not excepted. But this bigot would see a suggestion of fencing in Baptists as hateful and wrong, despite how great an idea he thinks it is for those queers.

ElvishPillager: Ooooh, VERY nicely played!
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Okita » Tue May 29, 2012 3:50 am UTC

Or if you think about the Hitchhiker's...Wonko the Sane's Asylum which is a house turned inside out (outside walls are the interior of the asylum).
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Lucrece » Tue May 29, 2012 6:48 am UTC

His plans obviously didn't allow for Mexican homosexuals coming in and bursting his bubble.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Aikanaro » Tue May 29, 2012 11:03 am UTC

Gays: Now a U.S. import!
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue May 29, 2012 12:39 pm UTC

Related: (unless you think it is not)

Despite the risks, devotional relationships between men were common in Europe at the time, at least among the literate, and many of these affairs must have included sex at some point. Knights, aristocrats, and especially clerics left expansive evidence of their intense passions for male lovers, relationships that often ended in side-by-side burials. A letter from a respected monk–scholar in Charlemagne’s court named Alcuin (circa 735–804) to a beloved bishop shows how thick those relations sometimes became:


Alcoin wrote: I think of your love and friendship with such sweet memories, reverend bishop, that I long for that lovely time when I may be able to clutch the neck of your sweetness with the fingers of my desires. Alas, if only it were granted to me, as it was to Habakkuk, to be transported to you, how would I sink into your embraces . . . how would I cover, with tightly pressed lips, not only your eyes, ears, and mouth but also your every finger and your toes, not once but many a time.



While this epistle is unusually erotic, it reflects the intimacies that existed among men everywhere. Assuming, as we must, that at least some of these men’s sexual longings were fulfilled, the next question is the extent to which intimate homosexual relationships were tolerated. Love was one thing, sodomy another. If male hustlers on the Rialto were burned to death and other European sodomites were being cut to ribbons, could long-term, loving relationships among men ever be permitted?

The answer, paradoxically, is yes. In the period up to roughly the thirteenth century, male bonding ceremonies were performed in churches all over the Mediterranean. These unions were sanctified by priests with many of the same prayers and rituals used to join men and women in marriage. The ceremonies stressed love and personal commitment over procreation, but surely not everyone was fooled. Couples who joined themselves in such rituals most likely had sex as much (or as little) as their heterosexual counterparts. In any event, the close association of male bonding ceremonies with forbidden sex eventually became too much to overlook as ever more severe sodomy laws were put into place.

Such same-sex unions—sometimes called “spiritual brotherhoods”—forged irrevocable bonds between the men involved. Often they involved missionaries about to set off on foreign voyages, but lay male couples also entered into them. Other than the gender of the participants, it was difficult to distinguish the ceremonies from typical marriages. Twelfth-century liturgies for same-sex unions, for example, involved the pair joining their right hands at the altar, the recital of marriage prayers, and a ceremonial kiss.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Arrian » Tue May 29, 2012 2:53 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:EDIT: Really, it should just come down to one thing, if folks THINK about it: Legally recognized gay marriage is inevitable. Whether it's a few years from now, or fifty years from now, sooner or later it IS going to happen. So the question isn't whether you should support it or not....but how you want future generations to view you. Which side of history do you want to be with, civilized, evolving humans, or unbending dinosaurs?


Remember the audience: The people so aggressively fighting against gay rights aren't going to care what the median person thinks of them a couple generations from now, their legacy is for those who hold similar beliefs. Jefferson Davis is still a hero in some circles.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby CorruptUser » Tue May 29, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

Also, what makes you think egalitarianism is inevitable? Kant may not be right, after all. Sometimes things become worse, and they stay worse. Greece used to be somewhat tolerant of homosexuality, but has been pretty homophobic for most of the last 2000 years.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Tue May 29, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Also, what makes you think egalitarianism is inevitable? Kant may not be right, after all. Sometimes things become worse, and they stay worse. Greece used to be somewhat tolerant of homosexuality, but has been pretty homophobic for most of the last 2000 years.


I dont disagree with your central point, but while Greece may have well have been more homophobic than it once was in the past two millenia, Classical greece had far more slaves than post-roman Greece. You'd have a hard time arguing that homophobia and slavery are even remotely comparable as restrictions on liberty.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Lucrece » Tue May 29, 2012 6:23 pm UTC

The Greeks would have been fairly intolerant of our modern concept of homosexuality, anyways. Getting fucked by someone of your own station and if you were at marrying age was a big no-no.

Aristophanes was a big example of homophobia.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Jave D » Tue May 29, 2012 7:02 pm UTC

Charming. Hateful, ignorant douchebags preaching hate politics and fantasizing about genocide.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Lucrece » Wed May 30, 2012 8:03 am UTC

More standing ovation. Church teaches young children to sign "Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." Congregation goes wild for it -- and then we wonder why gay kids are bullied to death.

http://goodlawd.com/goodlawd-kid-sings- ... rch-video/
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby omgryebread » Wed May 30, 2012 2:03 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:More standing ovation. Church teaches young children to sign "Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." Congregation goes wild for it -- and then we wonder why gay kids are bullied to death.

http://goodlawd.com/goodlawd-kid-sings- ... rch-video/
If those people are going to heaven, and they've got nothing better to sing about than their disapproval of other people having sex, I'd be quite glad to not get in heaven with them.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Dauric » Wed May 30, 2012 3:33 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Lucrece wrote:More standing ovation. Church teaches young children to sign "Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." Congregation goes wild for it -- and then we wonder why gay kids are bullied to death.

http://goodlawd.com/goodlawd-kid-sings- ... rch-video/
If those people are going to heaven, and they've got nothing better to sing about than their disapproval of other people having sex, I'd be quite glad to not get in heaven with them.

As the adage goes: Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company.

Another way to think about it: One way or another they're going to Hell simply on account of the fact that they'll be there.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 30, 2012 4:01 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Lucrece wrote:More standing ovation. Church teaches young children to sign "Ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven." Congregation goes wild for it -- and then we wonder why gay kids are bullied to death.

http://goodlawd.com/goodlawd-kid-sings- ... rch-video/
If those people are going to heaven, and they've got nothing better to sing about than their disapproval of other people having sex, I'd be quite glad to not get in heaven with them.


Yes, in a dimension where disease, injury and death don't really have any effect, I'll take the eternity with the gamblers, sluts and drunks over the overbearing prudes any day of the week.

Personally, I like to imagine that when ultra-religious people die, their heaven is actually just a church sermon (or Islamic prayer or whatever) talking about how wonderful god is, forever, and nothing else. Sorry, if this is what your gods tell you is righteous and all the other stuff, what makes you think the most righteous of places will have less of it?

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby omgryebread » Wed May 30, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Personally, I like to imagine that when ultra-religious people die, their heaven is actually just a church sermon (or Islamic prayer or whatever) talking about how wonderful god is, forever, and nothing else. Sorry, if this is what your gods tell you is righteous and all the other stuff, what makes you think the most righteous of places will have less of it?
That's uh, apparently how they like to imagine it. Seemed to be a common theme in high school, about if we praised God enough in life, we'd get to, oh boy this is great, get to praise him even more after we die. And none of that silly having to work or even entertain ourselves getting in the way. We'd be totally happy to sit around and praise nonstop.


Since I feel bad making fun of religious people in general, and not just bigots, I'll balance it by saying some churches are really cool and non-bigoted. My girlfriend loved being Catholic, but converted to Episcopal because of problematic Catholic views on women, abortion, and her choice of romantic partners. She's dragged me along to some services, and I admit I was actually surprised. People were more than accepting, they were supportive. The priest has mentioned marriage equality in her sermons, and most people seem genuinely pleased we'd get married there (if/when that happens if/when it's legalized.)
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 30, 2012 4:52 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Personally, I like to imagine that when ultra-religious people die, their heaven is actually just a church sermon (or Islamic prayer or whatever) talking about how wonderful god is, forever, and nothing else. Sorry, if this is what your gods tell you is righteous and all the other stuff, what makes you think the most righteous of places will have less of it?


That's uh, apparently how they like to imagine it. Seemed to be a common theme in high school, about if we praised God enough in life, we'd get to, oh boy this is great, get to praise him even more after we die. And none of that silly having to work or even entertain ourselves getting in the way. We'd be totally happy to sit around and praise nonstop.


Admittedly the traditions will vary between different sects. Quite sure most Islamic traditions have heaven filled with rivers of wine and hundreds of virgins, so an eternity of drunken sex despite that being quite taboo in the real world. Christian tradition is similar. Jewish tradition is a bit weirder since heaven and hell are the same place; you spend eternity with everything you have ever done in life on display for everyone who ever existed.

At least Valhalla is consistent with the viking religion; pillage enough villages and eat enough of your enemies' livestock, and you get to spend an eternity fighting and feasting.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby ShootTheChicken » Wed May 30, 2012 4:56 pm UTC

Spending an eternity doing anything sounds pretty dull.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Wed May 30, 2012 5:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:At least Valhalla is consistent with the viking religion; pillage enough villages and eat enough of your enemies' livestock, and you get to spend an eternity fighting and feasting.


Thats not right. At all.

It's more like "Live a noble life (including but not limited to valour in battle) and be conscripted into the god's army (Either Woden's or Frey's) - where you'll be paid in wine and women"

nor is it a Viking concept (Viking not being an ethnic group, but a description of an activity) Some variant of Valhalla/Wolholla/Valhol was present in most of the indigenous religions of northern Europe - them all being closely interrelated.

There were other realms which non-warriors could wind up in, depending on their lives, too.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Wed May 30, 2012 6:44 pm UTC

As vile as this stuff is, it's pretty much inevitable. Every increase in civil rights and equality generates a backlash, usually one that takes the hate against the folks who are making the gains to a whole new level. It's getting "uppity" that riles up those who favor the status quo.

On a more amusing note, as far as fences go there's a group called Christian Exodus that decided that the culture war was lost and the best solution was to have all the fanatics - oops, sorry, true Christians - move to South Carolina, become a majority of the population, and secede (much like the libertarians who want to take over New Hampshire). My reaction to learning this was "I'll help you pack!" Yeah, South Carolina has some nice bits, but they'll soon be so poor they'll be desperate for tourist dollars and the exchange rate is probably going to be even better than the peso. We'd just need to make it easy for political and religious refugees to immigrate, and we can finally make Puerto Rico a state so we'll keep an even 50 (I think one of the main reasons Puerto Rico isn't a state is that no one want to redesign the flag to have 51 stars).

Sadly, the group has given up on this idea and now is advocating a namby-pamby 'personal secession'.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed May 30, 2012 6:49 pm UTC

Namby Pamby was a GREAT editor!
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Wed May 30, 2012 7:04 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:As vile as this stuff is, it's pretty much inevitable. Every increase in civil rights and equality generates a backlash, usually one that takes the hate against the folks who are making the gains to a whole new level. It's getting "uppity" that riles up those who favor the status quo.

On a more amusing note, as far as fences go there's a group called Christian Exodus that decided that the culture war was lost and the best solution was to have all the fanatics - oops, sorry, true Christians - move to South Carolina, become a majority of the population, and secede (much like the libertarians who want to take over New Hampshire). My reaction to learning this was "I'll help you pack!" Yeah, South Carolina has some nice bits, but they'll soon be so poor they'll be desperate for tourist dollars and the exchange rate is probably going to be even better than the peso. We'd just need to make it easy for political and religious refugees to immigrate, and we can finally make Puerto Rico a state so we'll keep an even 50 (I think one of the main reasons Puerto Rico isn't a state is that no one want to redesign the flag to have 51 stars).

Sadly, the group has given up on this idea and now is advocating a namby-pamby 'personal secession'.


Surely what Christian Alliance wants to do is actually the most equitable and democratic solution? live and let live and all that? Same thing with the libertarians and new hampshire, and the Cascadians etc.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Jave D » Wed May 30, 2012 7:14 pm UTC

There's nothing democratic about the idea that "I can't live in the same country as you unless I get my way."

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Wed May 30, 2012 7:16 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Surely what Christian Alliance wants to do is actually the most equitable and democratic solution? live and let live and all that? Same thing with the libertarians and new hampshire, and the Cascadians etc.


Hey, I said I was all for it - just as long as it was easy for the folks who don't want to live under the Christian Taliban to move out.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be too happy if they moved to MY state and declared "Live under a theocracy or leave your lifelong home", but as far as the greater good goes, I think the remaining states would be much better off.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed May 30, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Admittedly the traditions will vary between different sects. Quite sure most Islamic traditions have heaven filled with rivers of wine and hundreds of virgins, so an eternity of drunken sex despite that being quite taboo in the real world. Christian tradition is similar.

I'm pretty sure that that is, at best, a minority view. It's certainly not a representative description of any Christian tradition that I ever learned. Seriously, omgrybread's description is a whole lot more like what I remember.

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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Wed May 30, 2012 8:04 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:There's nothing democratic about the idea that "I can't live in the same country as you unless I get my way."


"Our community has collectively decided not to live by your laws" however, is as democratic as it gets.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed May 30, 2012 8:18 pm UTC

Only if the "collective decision" of their community was democratic. But if it's "We, the people in power in our community, have collectively decided that all the people in our community will not live by your laws", then...
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Weeks » Wed May 30, 2012 8:20 pm UTC

Reading those words felt like those ancient lore books from video games. This is something I expect to see from "Cain the Lunatic" in Skyrim or somesuch, not real life.

At this rate all the radical Christian communities will probably collapse upon themselves.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Wed May 30, 2012 8:24 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:Only if the "collective decision" of their community was democratic. But if it's "We, the people in power in our community, have collectively decided that all the people in our community will not live by your laws", then...


Obviously. the situation as it was described was people from all over the U.S congregating and forming a state - the implication being that the majority of inhabitants want to live under the rules that sate would set up.

Honestly, If a bunch of people want to form a community that doesn't accept homosexuality, who are we to stop them?
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed May 30, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Obviously. the situation as it was described was people from all over the U.S congregating and forming a state - the implication being that the majority of inhabitants want to live under the rules that sate would set up.

No, only the majority of those who made the decisions to move. There are probably a lot more people who were dragged along without a choice - most especially their children.

The adult religious bigots would never accept a deal where they're not allowed to raise children in their state, and reasonable people would never accept a deal where they'd be allowed to raise, and therefore abuse, gay children (and we can be pretty damn sure that some of their children would be gay). So there's an impasse here.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Ormurinn » Wed May 30, 2012 8:41 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:No, only the majority of those who made the decisions to move. There are probably a lot more people who were dragged along without a choice - most especially their children.

The adult religious bigots would never accept a deal where they're not allowed to raise children in their state, and reasonable people would never accept a deal where they'd be allowed to raise, and therefore abuse, gay children (and we can be pretty damn sure that some of their children would be gay). So there's an impasse here.


You're actually suggesting people who disagree with you, shouldn't be able to make their own laws if they want to have children? I thought the christians were the fundamentalists.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Weeks » Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 pm UTC

There's this neat little thing called human rights
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed May 30, 2012 9:00 pm UTC

Yeah, what Weeks said.

"People who disagree with me" is a pretty wide category. It covers, among other things, people who think the Sun revolves around the Earth, people who think I'd like pizza if I tried it, and people who think it's okay to try to stamp out the sexual orientations of some of their children. The former two groups can legitimately set up their own communities if they want to for some reason. The latter group, not so much. Religious and cultural differences can excuse a lot of behaviors I consider silly, but nothing excuses abuse.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby Lucrece » Wed May 30, 2012 9:11 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:No, only the majority of those who made the decisions to move. There are probably a lot more people who were dragged along without a choice - most especially their children.

The adult religious bigots would never accept a deal where they're not allowed to raise children in their state, and reasonable people would never accept a deal where they'd be allowed to raise, and therefore abuse, gay children (and we can be pretty damn sure that some of their children would be gay). So there's an impasse here.


You're actually suggesting people who disagree with you, shouldn't be able to make their own laws if they want to have children? I thought the christians were the fundamentalists.


The thing is, those Christians who would secede would then have gay children, who would be brought up under no doubt abusive homes. There's a wealth of records for example with mormons where gay kids were treated to electroshock while watching gay pornography as "reparative therapy", or being placed in a tub full of ice. Even the non-physically abusive homes would be enough to marginalize gay kids into mental disease. The closet, speaking as a gay person myself, kills. It just saps your will to live or to aspire in life.

Gay children would have no support networks whatsoever in this theocratic state. Just look at Iran or Saudi Arabia, and that's what gay children would experience from this newly formed state.
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Re: Homophobic bigotry gets standing ovation

Postby ShootTheChicken » Wed May 30, 2012 9:18 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:No, only the majority of those who made the decisions to move. There are probably a lot more people who were dragged along without a choice - most especially their children.

The adult religious bigots would never accept a deal where they're not allowed to raise children in their state, and reasonable people would never accept a deal where they'd be allowed to raise, and therefore abuse, gay children (and we can be pretty damn sure that some of their children would be gay). So there's an impasse here.


You're actually suggesting people who disagree with you, shouldn't be able to make their own laws if they want to have children? I thought the christians were the fundamentalists.


People can be wrong. Even about moral questions, people can definitely be wrong. And when that would cause harm to people other than themselves, then no: they shouldn't be able to make laws and inflict them on their children/others.
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