New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

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New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Thesh » Thu May 31, 2012 11:00 pm UTC

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nati ... 1170.story

The ban would not affect grocery stores, and diet drinks, fruit juices and most dairy-based drinks would be exempt. In addition, people in restaurants, cinemas and other food-service businesses who crave their super-sized sodas would be free to buy more than one.


Good intentions, but I don't think Bloomberg has ever been in a restaurant with self-serve fountain soda. Diet drinks, fruit juices, etc. are all usually on the same soda fountain as non-diet drinks, and you are usually allowed to refill your drink. Further more, juice usually has as much if not more sugar than soda. Places that don't have self-service fountain drinks, usually fill up the cup 75% of the way with ice anyway.

Yes, obesity is a problem, yes if we got the country to cut down on sugary drinks it could have a significant effect, but I really don't think this is an effective or practical plan. I'd rather see an ad campaign focusing on getting people to choose water over soda.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu May 31, 2012 11:04 pm UTC

If we're concerned about soda, how about we legislate away high fructose corn syrKLJAL;SKJFLKA;JSDFOIHASIHOSALIKFJLKJDLKJHSD
Corn is great! I love it! I wish everything were made out of corn!

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Thesh » Thu May 31, 2012 11:11 pm UTC

As much shit as HFCS gets (and I'm not sure there is anything showing it is significantly worse than sucrose), I think it's the sheer volume of sugar we are consuming that makes up the bulk of the problem. However, if you want to reduce the amount of HFCS in commercial foods and beverages, we can simply reduce/stop subsidizing corn.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu May 31, 2012 11:53 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:If we're concerned about soda, how about we legislate away high fructose corn syrKLJAL;SKJFLKA;JSDFOIHASIHOSALIKFJLKJDLKJHSD
Corn is great! I love it! I wish everything were made out of corn!

coooooorrrrrrrnnnnnn



Personally I am a fan of corn (popcorn especially. mmm... antioxidants...)

We need to get people to start craving water more. Not water bottles though. Those are stupid.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:18 am UTC

We must always subsidize corn.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Steroid » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:33 am UTC

More nanny-state crap from Bloomberg. Isn't this guy's term over yet? I seriously want to find this guy and down a 2-liter of Coke in front of him, the real cane-sugar shit you get down in Mexico. And I'm diabetic. Get a clue, fuckwad. It is my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to put whatever the hell I want into my body. I swear, the next time I'm in Manhattan, I'm buying a case of soda and passing them out to little kids. Fuck you, you tyrannical asshole.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby yurell » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:37 am UTC

Steroid wrote: It is my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to put whatever the hell I want into my body.


I don't think he intends to ban soft drink, so this argument is sort of pointless.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:58 am UTC

He doesn't think he can get away with banning soft drinks, you mean.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Telchar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:40 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:He doesn't think he can get away with banning soft drinks, you mean.


Cite?

OT: I get that juice is better for you than soda, but it isn't very good if you're just talking about obesity/diabetes. Most juice has a TON of sugar in it. You need to get people thinking about this kind of thing and eating healthier all around, not trying to make soda less expedient to consume.

Also...

Steroid wrote:More nanny-state crap from Bloomberg. Isn't this guy's term over yet? I seriously want to find this guy and down a 2-liter of Coke in front of him, the real cane-sugar shit you get down in Mexico. And I'm diabetic. Get a clue, fuckwad. It is my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to put whatever the hell I want into my body. I swear, the next time I'm in Manhattan, I'm buying a case of soda and passing them out to little kids. Fuck you, you tyrannical asshole.


Really? This is what discourse has come to? If someone wants to limit the size with which you can purchase a soda then they are a tyrant? We need new words then for actual tyrants because your persecution complex could be the subject of a yo momma joke.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Steroid » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:04 am UTC

Telchar wrote:Really? This is what discourse has come to? If someone wants to limit the size with which you can purchase a soda then they are a tyrant? We need new words then for actual tyrants because your persecution complex could be the subject of a yo momma joke.

Yes, God dammit, he's a fucking tyrant. He's a tyrant because he think he knows better than me. This is not an argument. I'm right; he's wrong, and so are you. The very fact that he even CONSIDERS putting this shit into place means that he's not fit to run an ice cream truck, let alone the biggest city in the country. And believe me: I'm self-censoring here. I won't tell you what I really think should be done to him. It has to stop. This "We need to do this for the people" bullshit needs to stop. What you need to do, Nanny Bloomberg, is get the fuck out of MY life and everyone else's who still has a spine of their own, and the next time you get a notion that you think might make a good policy, shove your finger up your nose and scratch till it goes away.

Edit: Fuck all this, I'm going to bed. I can't talk rationally about this, because there's no way to reach common ground with people who don't recognize you as able to think for yourself.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Mostlynormal » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:16 am UTC

Do you consider Hitler, Stalin, King Louis of the French Revolution, etc to be tyrants, or do you use a different word for them? Because if you consider them tyrants, you're basically giving the same descriptor to leaders who held back food, led political or ethnic purges, etc and leaders who banned large soda. Just because someone proposes a restrictive policy shouldn't automatically put them up there with, well, actual tyrants.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby yurell » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:17 am UTC

Steroid wrote:Yes, God dammit, he's a fucking tyrant. He's a tyrant because he think he knows better than me.


What an interesting definition of 'tyrant'. I imagined a tyranny to involve a great deal more brutal suppression of dissidents for starters.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Telchar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:18 am UTC

Steroid wrote:Yes, God dammit, he's a fucking tyrant. He's a tyrant because he think he knows better than me. This is not an argument. I'm right; he's wrong, and so are you. The very fact that he even CONSIDERS putting this shit into place means that he's not fit to run an ice cream truck, let alone the biggest city in the country. And believe me: I'm self-censoring here. I won't tell you what I really think should be done to him. It has to stop. This "We need to do this for the people" bullshit needs to stop. What you need to do, Nanny Bloomberg, is get the fuck out of MY life and everyone else's who still has a spine of their own, and the next time you get a notion that you think might make a good policy, shove your finger up your nose and scratch till it goes away.


So if limiting the quantity a product can be sold in is tyranny, what is torturing/killing dissenting citizens (Assad), or restricting free press(North Korea/China), or limits on children (China), or...you know...any of those people that are actually tyrants? The idea that the same adjective could describe both the policies of Stalin and Bloomberg means there is something very wrong with either our language or our discourse as rational people can agree Bloomberg is absolutely nothing like Stalin in terms of political policy.

Edit: Fuck all this, I'm going to bed. I can't talk rationally about this, because there's no way to reach common ground with people who don't recognize you as able to think for yourself.


Maybe you shouldn't go to bed, as apparently you've become a mind reader able to see my deepest thoughts without me actually having typed them. But maybe that building that giant straw man tuckered you out. Sleep well.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby DaBigCheez » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:21 am UTC

Er...don't most fountain drinks let you get free refills anyway? It seems to be just going for making the conscious decision to get more, which is totally a thing you can still do. Might be inconvenient at theaters, but I'll also probably have to get up and pee in the middle of the movie less too.

I'd potentially be receptive to arguments that this is overstepping what the government should be able to legislate in principle, or that it's a waste of time compared to other bills that could be passed, but I'm not really seeing how this makes him a reincarnated Vampire Hitler.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Telchar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:23 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:Er...don't most fountain drinks let you get free refills anyway? It seems to be just going for making the conscious decision to get more, which is totally a thing you can still do. Might be inconvenient at theaters, but I'll also probably have to get up and pee in the middle of the movie less too.


Making things take more effort to acquire generally limits some subsection of the population in their consumption.

I'd potentially be receptive to arguments that this is overstepping what the government should be able to legislate in principle, or that it's a waste of time compared to other bills that could be passed, but I'm not really seeing how this makes him a reincarnated Vampire Hitler.


I pretty much agree with everything in this statement. Thank you.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:28 am UTC

Well, 16oz is a modest size. I don't really think its too restrictive personally. At least for the way I live my life, I don't drink more than that amount of soda in one sitting anyway. (plus, 16oz of soda is like 250 calories. That alone takes up 12% of your daily calories... you probably shouldn't be drinking more than that in a day, let alone in one sitting)

I can see issues to Libertarians who don't like the government telling them what they can and can't do... but until Americans stop failing at being FAT, I think we should encourage local experiments like this. I wouldn't want to see something like this pop up at a state level (or even in a city the size of New York), but I'd like to see it done somewhere... to gauge the practical effects. (ie: will everyone start buying two and thus negate the effectiveness of the bill? Or will people actually cut down on consumption?)

Basically, I'd be fine because it doesn't affect me. If it did affect me, I'd probably be pissed off... but either way, I'm interested in what happens if a town actually did adopt the law.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby iChef » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:33 am UTC

This makes no sense at all. First anyone who wants to drink more than 16oz of soda will still be able to only now it will be more of a hassle. Why are they going after fountain soda when i can still go to a store and buy a 1/2 liter and drink it in one sitting if I so choose.

Also this whole war on corn syrup is ignorant. Corn syrup is no worse for you than any other kind of sugar. Yes you shouldn't make sugar a huge part of your diet, but it isn't going to kill you any faster than honey (which has almost the same portion of fructose to glucose) or agave syrup (same) which misguided hippies and heath nuts offer as "healthy" alternatives to big scary evil high fructose corn syrup.

This will also have a huge negative effect on many quick service small establishments. I'm not worried about McD's or Burger King, but that small family run taco place or the local homemade pizza joint or BBQ shack make a very good margin on fountain soft drinks. When compared to entrees it is a large part of their actual profit that doesn't get eaten up by food and labor costs. Bottled drinks are very expensive to buy compared to fountain syrup and are pretty much lost leaders to places that sell them. I can see take out places selling far fewer fountain drinks and far more bottled drinks at a loss of profit hurting these places.

Not to mention dine in establishments. You can get nice 20 oz. soda glasses that look good at a bar or burger joint. Does this mean these places have to turn around and spend hundreds of dollars in glassware if they don't carry a 16oz soda glass. This also means more refills so more trips to a table for the servers, more dishes to wash, which means more wear, more chance for breakage, more water and soap to wash glasses which costs money and is bad for the environment.

I have no idea who this law is supposed to help other than a bunch of self righteous asses who feel the need to run the world according to the way they see fit for no reason other than their own ego. People who probably don't drink soda anyway (because green mate kambucha kafir tea made from sheep's milk and horse testes is soooo much better for you, not that you'd ever heard of it)

Edit: a problem with stats on a 16oz fountain soda is at most places a good portion of that is ice so you are not drinking 16 oz of pure soda
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby liveboy21 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:35 am UTC

Steroid wrote:He's a tyrant because he think he knows better than me.

[quote="Steroid"]I'm right; he's wrong, and so are you./quote]

I just wanted to put that there because I find it hilarious.

I think that if you look past his angry words a little, you'll find that he's making a valid point. (The angry words don't really help his case though). What the mayor appears to be doing is creating a regulation on the market that will change how they soda people are allowed to sell their soda. Perhaps it may be to reduce people's soda intake (it is harder to carry 2 smaller cups into a cinema than 1 bigger cup) but it's rather obviously to LOOK like he's protecting the people.

This goes into the bigger picture of what the role of govenment should be in protecting the people. I would prefer education campaigns or warning labels or other less direct approaches. I generally don't like when I have to jump through unnecessary hoops to get the product I want. The industries themselves tend to put hoops all over the place and if the government isn't careful, their hoops would only make things more annoying and the industries would just be able to point to the government and claim that all of the annoyances come from them.

In the end, I want to be protected by the government but I also want to be able to access a product if I so choose. I want to be able to eat, drink, read internet articles, play video games and read books without feeling like the government is trying to prevent me from doing any of those activities. (I'm still against smoking cigarettes though because that is a product that by its nature does harm to others as well)

Edit: wow, 5 posts appeared as I was typing this. Geez I'm slow :(

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Ghostbear » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:39 am UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:If we're concerned about soda, how about we legislate away high fructose corn syrKLJAL;SKJFLKA;JSDFOIHASIHOSALIKFJLKJDLKJHSD
Corn is great! I love it! I wish everything were made out of corn!

coooooorrrrrrrnnnnnn

Obviously some humor here, but this is pretty much the first step to solving this problem I'd think. Practically everything is made of corn right now as-is. It's not even an efficient plant; it has a far worse energy (and water too) input/output ratio than other competing crops. If they had to go back to paying real sugar prices for soda, it might actually go up in price, and then maybe we'd drink less of it.

Steroid wrote:Yes, God dammit, he's a fucking tyrant. He's a tyrant because he think he knows better than me. This is not an argument. I'm right; he's wrong, and so are you.

The problem with this thought is not "I think this is a bad idea. I hate that this is being done." -- you're more than entitled to think so. The problem is that you're calling Bloomberg a tyrant over it. If limiting the size of a serving of a drink makes you a tyrant, then what do zoning laws make you? What do minimum drinking ages do? Or minimum smoking ages? Drug bans, safety requirements (e.g. seatbelts, helmets, OSHA, etc.), truancy laws, and so on? By your definition, every single person that has ever held executive office in the history of ever is a tyrant. You're diluting the word to be completely meaningless.

yurell wrote:What an interesting definition of 'tyrant'. I imagined a tyranny to involve a great deal more brutal suppression of dissidents for starters.

That's crazy talk, why, it'd require us to care what the word actually means! We can't just go around using words in a way that fits their definition.

iChef wrote:This makes no sense at all. First anyone who wants to drink more than 16oz of soda will still be able to only now it will be more of a hassle. Why are they going after fountain soda when i can still go to a store and buy a 1/2 liter and drink it in one sitting if I so choose.

It's going after a psychological effect, as stated in the article. People feel compelled to finish drinks that they order. Now the order that they feel compelled to finish will be smaller.

iChef wrote:Also this whole war on corn syrup is ignorant. Corn syrup is no worse for you than any other kind of sugar. Yes you shouldn't make sugar a huge part of your diet, but it isn't going to kill you any faster than honey (which has almost the same portion of fructose to glucose) or agave syrup (same) which misguided hippies and heath nuts offer as "healthy" alternatives to big scary evil high fructose corn syrup.

The hate for corn syrup is exactly because of how much of it we consume. It's absurdly, and unnaturally, low price causes it to be shoved in just about everything (look at my links at the top). No, in similar quantities it's not significantly worse for you than real sugar. That's not what happens though; going about a regular diet, we consume significantly more of it as a sugar replacement than we would have of regular sugar.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby iChef » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:03 am UTC

While tyrant is too strong a word I can't think of a good term for people who enact excessive laws for no real reason. If you don't want to finish a 20 oz soda you are free to order a smaller one. The market should decide what the right size for a soda is not the government. Look at canned beverages. They used to be 8oz. decades ago. Then the 12 oz. can was standard and that is all you could get for years. Now companies saw there was demand for a smaller size from some customers so you have a choice go to the supermarket you can buy cans in either 8oz or 12oz. You can buy bottles in 12oz, 12 oz glass, 16 oz., 20 oz. 1/2 liter, 1liter, 1.25 liter and 2 liter some brands even make a 3 liter. All these choices allow customers to drink whatever they want.

The right way to do this is a campaign to consume less sugar all around. I would get behind that. Singling out soda is a cheap easy PR win, because people are scared of the HFCS monster ( Oh me yarm fructose that sound like a CHEMICAL not like sugar). Look at what is being done with cigarette sales overall, most studies I've seen has shown raising taxes is much less effective than the education campaigns that have been launched in the last couple decades.

I feel the same way about smoking bans. In my area in the years leading up to the ban there were several bars banning smoking on their own, customers had a choice, now the government steps in and takes that choice away. It won't be long before they are raiding your house and snatching that post-intercourse cigarette right out of your hand.

Obesity is caused by many things and I am willing to bet shrinking fountain drink sizes is not going to change obesity rates one bit. Look at what happened when McDonalds stopped super sizing value meals. We were suddenly thrust into a golden age of heart disease free bodies that looked like the were copied fresh off of classical marble statues. Or maybe obesity rates continued to rise I can't remember it's probably all that soda I drink rotting my brain.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:04 am UTC

You can still drink all the soda you want. If you want more soda, get up and fill your soda reciprocal and repeat until you have all the soda you want! Its hardly worth even complaining about.

There are huge issues with the average American Diet and a big part of that problem is Soda. The USA is also the only place I am aware of or been to that has self-service soda fountains virtually everywhere, which should speak volumes about the quantity of soda being consumed. So ignorant was I in the utilization of a soda fountain that in my quest to get water, I accidentally got lemonade, which technically I stole, but didn't' consume. :-/

If anything this move is going to get people talking about the consumption of Soda, that some people think its bad, some people might learn that its bad and we shouldn't be consuming so much of it. These are good things.

And if anyone thinks that getting up and walking a few meters to refill their Soda reciprocal is such a burden, our realities are just so diverse, I don't think we could even engage in a meaningful discussion.

While tyrant is too strong a word I can't think of a good term for people who enact excessive laws for no real reason. If you don't want to finish a 20 oz soda you are free to order a smaller one. The market should decide what the right size for a soda is not the government. Look at canned beverages. They used to be 8oz. decades ago. Then the 12 oz. can was standard and that is all you could get for years. Now companies saw there was demand for a smaller size from some customers so you have a choice go to the supermarket you can buy cans in either 8oz or 12oz. You can buy bottles in 12oz, 12 oz glass, 16 oz., 20 oz. 1/2 liter, 1liter, 1.25 liter and 2 liter some brands even make a 3 liter. All these choices allow customers to drink whatever they want.


Perhaps we should also let the free market dictate the speed limits on the roads and highways!

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:08 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:And if anyone thinks that getting up and walking a few meters to refill their Soda reciprocal is such a burden, our realities are just so diverse, I don't think we could even engage in a meaningful discussion.


I think iChef did bring up a valid complaint however. If a family owned restaurant has 20oz glasses, do they have to rebuy all of their glasses to match the new regulation?

I fully agree with you Moose, that walking up somewhere and asking for a refill isn't that big of a deal. But if this sort of thing actually costs hard money, it probably isn't going to be worth the effort.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Derek » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:07 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:There are huge issues with the average American Diet and a big part of that problem is Soda.

But that doesn't mean that the government has to do something about it.

The USA is also the only place I am aware of or been to that has self-service soda fountains virtually everywhere, which should speak volumes about the quantity of soda being consumed. So ignorant was I in the utilization of a soda fountain that in my quest to get water, I accidentally got lemonade, which technically I stole, but didn't' consume. :-/

They don't care. That stuff is self-service because it's dirt fucking cheap. They're probably paying more for the disposable cup.

Perhaps we should also let the free market dictate the speed limits on the roads and highways!

*Points to autobahn and other roads with no speed limit.*

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby buddy431 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:42 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:If they had to go back to paying real sugar prices for soda, it might actually go up in price, and then maybe we'd drink less of it.


Uhh, U.S. consumers historically pay about twice (compare tables 3b and 4, for example) the price of the world market. Right now the disparity isn't quite as large, but it still exists. That's protectionism at work, there.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Tirian » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:44 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I think iChef did bring up a valid complaint however. If a family owned restaurant has 20oz glasses, do they have to rebuy all of their glasses to match the new regulation?


If they like. Course, they could also just not fill the glasses all the way to the top. :roll:

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby webzter_again » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:49 am UTC

Thesh wrote:As much shit as HFCS gets (and I'm not sure there is anything showing it is significantly worse than sucrose)


http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/arch ... /91/22K07/

The first study showed that male rats given water sweetened with high-fructose corn syrup in addition to a standard diet of rat chow gained much more weight than male rats that received water sweetened with table sugar, or sucrose, in conjunction with the standard diet. The concentration of sugar in the sucrose solution was the same as is found in some commercial soft drinks, while the high-fructose corn syrup solution was half as concentrated as most sodas.


I haven't followed much to see if the study has been refuted, and I'd definitely be interested in more studies on the subject... but it is an interesting read.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Dauric » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:50 am UTC

Tirian wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I think iChef did bring up a valid complaint however. If a family owned restaurant has 20oz glasses, do they have to rebuy all of their glasses to match the new regulation?


If they like. Course, they could also just not fill the glasses all the way to the top. :roll:


Depends on how the regulation is worded. It's not like most 20oz drinking glasses have graduated measurement lines to know where 16oz is. It would also depend on how strictly Bloomberg would enforce said regulation if it was passed and what kind of penalties would be attached to various violations.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Ghostbear » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:57 am UTC

iChef wrote:While tyrant is too strong a word I can't think of a good term for people who enact excessive laws for no real reason.

How about "people who enact excessive laws for no real reason" ? Tyrant is a terrible adjective to use here. It's completely out of place and doesn't make sense in this context.

iChef wrote:If you don't want to finish a 20 oz soda you are free to order a smaller one. The market should decide what the right size for a soda is not the government.
[...]
The right way to do this is a campaign to consume less sugar all around. I would get behind that. Singling out soda is a cheap easy PR win, because people are scared of the HFCS monster ( Gee Willikers fructose that sound like a CHEMICAL not like sugar). Look at what is being done with cigarette sales overall, most studies I've seen has shown raising taxes is much less effective than the education campaigns that have been launched in the last couple decades.
[...]
I feel the same way about smoking bans. In my area in the years leading up to the ban there were several bars banning smoking on their own, customers had a choice, now the government steps in and takes that choice away. It won't be long before they are raiding your house and snatching that post-intercourse cigarette right out of your hand.

They price the drinks specifically so that people are more likely to order larger ones, taking advantage of human psychology. Also, did you read what I actually wrote about HFCS, or do you just want to rage against so called "hippies"?

Smoking bans in public space are very different from banning the sizes of sodas. When you smoke, you damage the health of everyone around you. My state passed smoking bans for bars/restaurants a while ago, and even the smokers I've known are thankful for it. That is very much not a thing that the free market can handle on its own -- voluntarily banning something in a dining place just removes potential customers, without adding any.

iChef wrote:Obesity is caused by many things and I am willing to bet shrinking fountain drink sizes is not going to change obesity rates one bit. Look at what happened when McDonalds stopped super sizing value meals. We were suddenly thrust into a golden age of heart disease free bodies that looked like the were copied fresh off of classical marble statues. Or maybe obesity rates continued to rise I can't remember it's probably all that soda I drink rotting my brain.

This is a very classic logical mistake: "because this action on its own will not fix things, we should not take that action". Limiting soda won't end obesity, you're right. Nor will curbing fast food, or increasing exercise, or any other one thing. That doesn't mean we can't reduce soda consumption now, as a step to help improve things.

Derek wrote:But that doesn't mean that the government has to do something about it.

No, it doesn't. But your statement doesn't preclude it from being beneficial for the government to do so either. Especially when a big part of the problem (cheap as shit corn) is a result of government. Though of course that's not a perfect comparison, since one is federal and the other is a city.

Derek wrote:*Points to autobahn and other roads with no speed limit.*

I wasn't aware that the autobahn was a free market.

buddy431 wrote:Uhh, U.S. consumers historically pay about twice (compare tables 3b and 4, for example) the price of the world market. Right now the disparity isn't quite as large, but it still exists. That's protectionism at work, there.

My point was that we're not paying those actual sugar prices. We use HFCS instead of it because it's a lot cheaper. If they had to pay for sugar instead of HFCS, it'd influence prices.

Dauric wrote:Depends on how the regulation is worded. It's not like most 20oz drinking glasses have graduated measurement lines to know where 16oz is. It would also depend on how strictly Bloomberg would enforce said regulation if it was passed and what kind of penalties would be attached to various violations.

They could still add that measurement in themselves though, or fill in the bottom somehow. I could see it being a problem with self-serve with relation to the law though, as it'd allow people to serve themselves larger amounts. But yeah, a lot depends on the actual wording.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby buddy431 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:18 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:
buddy431 wrote:Uhh, U.S. consumers historically pay about twice (compare tables 3b and 4, for example) the price of the world market. Right now the disparity isn't quite as large, but it still exists. That's protectionism at work, there.

My point was that we're not paying those actual sugar prices. We use HFCS instead of it because it's a lot cheaper. If they had to pay for sugar instead of HFCS, it'd influence prices.


Prices for sugar in the U.S. have tended to be about 1.5 to 2 times more expensive than High Fructose Corn Syrup (Table 9), also this. The only reason HFCS is cheaper than cane sugar is that U.S. sugar prices are artificially high. What Americans pay for HFCS is what we should pay (or even more than we should pay) for sugar.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Steroid » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:17 am UTC

OK, I’m going to try to explain this without any more swearing. Not that I should have to. But we'll get to that.

Soda is, to me, Americana. An ice-cold pop on a hot day is a tradition. I remember reading a story how, in World War II, Coca-Cola ensure that every soldier, no matter where he was stationed, could get a Coke for five cents. It’s the pause that refreshes. It’s the choice of a new generation. It’s. . . whatever Royal Crown is. Soda calls up images of the jerk behind the fountain serving them up in tall glasses with ice cream to young lovers. If the Big Mac and fries are Curly and Moe, soda is Larry. Even soda’s failures are part of our culture. New Coke. Crystal Pepsi.

And now, by official proclamation of the mayor of the city of New York, it’s bad.

Don’t go into the details of how this isn’t a ban, that anyone who wants can have as much as they want. . . this isn’t even about the money. There have always been taxes and bottle deposits, but they never said to drink less soda. Bloomberg is taking all the history I detailed above, crumpling it up, and throwing it in the trash. See, throughout that history, no one ever put a moral component to drinking a soda. You might not be able to afford the soda, or you might have better things to do at that time than drink the soda, but up until now, the attitude was that if you’re thirsty, you find a store, buy a soda, and let the sweet goodness run down your throat. Now, even those here who are agreeing that the law is problematic think that soda itself is a problem.

That’s tyranny. That’s cultural destruction every bit as much as the genocides of Rwanda or the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. You don’t have to have a body count to kill a culture. Ancient Rome was culturally dead long before the barbarians reached the gates. And our culture is heading for the same cause of death: slow suicide.

Is there a health problem in the United States? Of course there is. But what bothers me about not just this issue, but just about every problem in the country today, is that the solution is always to be found in making the regular, ordinary citizen do more. Economy is down? We need people to spend more money. Fatalities on the highway? Everyone, drive slower and keep your kid in a car seat until he goes to college. Carbon monoxide? Here’s what you can do to CO-proof your home. What I can do? I have enough to do. Get involved. Raise awareness. Think globally, act locally.

We’re still the richest country out there, and instead of taking pride in what we are while acknowledging that some consequences are inevitable, we’re looking for more work to drop on the backs of our people.

That’s tyranny. At one point, it was assumed that the average American had enough troubles in his own life that he didn’t need to have any more put on him. Maybe it’s the 24-hour news cycle. Maybe it’s the politicians desperate to keep their jobs. Maybe it’s the pundits and experts who don’t care to do any real work. But we’re in the process now of telling everyone that if there’s a problem, it’s their fault.

Take all the time and money we’re putting into regulating people’s consumption, and we might be able to create exercise in a pill, something that increases metabolism and burns off the excess energy as waste heat, or as endorphins, or that stores as muscle instead of fat. Impossible? We’re Americans; the impossible is our specialty. Or was.

When a weaselly man in a fancy suit sauntered into town and told everyone that the saloon was closing, John Wayne would laugh in his face. When the guy hired goons to break the bottles, Wayne would stop laughing and sneer, and the townspeople would run him out of town. Today, we suspend the rules so he can be mayor three times.

But this isn’t the Wild West? This is New York? I know New York. I’ve lived in New York. My family is from New York. And you, Bloomberg, wherever you’re from, it’s not New York.

How does this fly in Canarsie? How does this fly in Saint Anthony’s Parish in the Bronx? How, for the love of God, does this fly in Coney Island?

Yes, I swore, ranted, and raved. Because in those locales, that was the song of my people. And at one point, that was enough. Because everyone should see this law for what it is: a naked attempt to make a country of free people into a nice little ant colony.

And that’s tyranny.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Ghostbear » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:Prices for sugar in the U.S. have tended to be about 1.5 to 2 times more expensive than High Fructose Corn Syrup (Table 9), also this. The only reason HFCS is cheaper than cane sugar is that U.S. sugar prices are artificially high. What Americans pay for HFCS is what we should pay (or even more than we should pay) for sugar.

Why should we expect sugar prices to go down in the US if we start to consume more of it? It doesn't matter if we pay more for sugar than other countries, it just matters that sugar costs more than HFCS.

Steroid wrote:Don’t go into the details of how this isn’t a ban, that anyone who wants can have as much as they want. . . this isn’t even about the money. There have always been taxes and bottle deposits, but they never said to drink less soda. Bloomberg is taking all the history I detailed above, crumpling it up, and throwing it in the trash. See, throughout that history, no one ever put a moral component to drinking a soda. You might not be able to afford the soda, or you might have better things to do at that time than drink the soda, but up until now, the attitude was that if you’re thirsty, you find a store, buy a soda, and let the sweet goodness run down your throat. Now, even those here who are agreeing that the law is problematic think that soda itself is a problem.

No, there is no moral element being applied to soda by this law. You're reaching into pure hyperbole. Again. This is not a ban; putting your hands over your ears and saying "lalalalala" doesn't change that fact. There is no ban, there is no moral element, there is no money element (I'm 99% sure that you're the first person to mention money as a factor at all). Pretending that it is those things doesn't help your argument.

Steroid wrote:That’s tyranny. That’s cultural destruction every bit as much as the genocides of Rwanda or the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia.

No, it isn't. "You now need to order two sodas to get 32 oz" is not cultural destruction, it is not destruction, it is not tyranny. It is nowhere near the same level of action as the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions of people. More hyperbole on your behalf.

Steroid wrote: Because everyone should see this law for what it is: a naked attempt to make a country of free people into a nice little ant colony.

And that’s tyranny.

Even more hyperbole, and more importantly, you are factually deficient here. Tyranny does not mean what you think it does.
Tyranny, noun: cruel and oppressive government or rule
This is not oppression or cruel. You take everything that goes in a direction you do not like to the single most hyperbolic extreme possible. Again, I ask, if this is tyranny, what are cigarette taxes and age restrictions (for a time, they were just as much -- if not more -- a part of US culture than soda)? Why is this tyranny but zoning laws, truancy laws, speed limits, laws of the road, mandatory motorcycle helmets, etc. ? If all of those are tyranny too, then you've reduced the word to a point of being completely meaningless. If those aren't tyranny, than you're being completely arbitrary on top of the hyperbole.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Steroid » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:29 am UTC

You're missing or ignoring my point in favor of semantics. Fine, it's not tyranny. It's "whatever word will effect a reaction in the listener associating the act described with that which must be immediately and reflexively rejected, and classified as that-which-should-not-be-done." Evil, fascistic, oppressive, totalitarian; pick one. The proper reaction to this law is not a studied analysis of its effects. The proper reaction is to call "Bullshit!"

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby yurell » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:54 am UTC

Steroid wrote:I remember reading a story how, in World War II, Coca-Cola ensure that every soldier, no matter where he was stationed, could get a Coke for five cents.


What about the story of how they did that to avoid the sugar ration, and to ensure market penetration? Or how about the one where it was happy to sell millions of bottles to the Nazi regime during WWII?

Steroid wrote:Don’t go into the details of how this isn’t a ban, that anyone who wants can have as much as they want. . . this isn’t even about the money.


Why not? Because your rhetoric appeals to nostalgia and the idea that soft drink in general is 'American', but doesn't mention specifically that drinking it in refillable cups of more than half a litre is part of this tradition?

Steroid wrote:There have always been taxes and bottle deposits, but they never said to drink less soda.


What? That's a blatant lie — from the same Wikipedia page in "1936, Coca-Cola was deemed unsuitable for children due to its sugar content and additives." Furthermore, for at least as long as I've been able to understand the news they've been suggesting that we drink less sugary drinks, especially soft drinks.
For one's health 'they've' been saying for decades to drink less soft drink, and if it's not a lie it's ridiculously ignorant of you to say that.

Steroid wrote:Bloomberg is taking all the history I detailed above, crumpling it up, and throwing it in the trash.


What? He's reaching into the past and rewriting history now? It's going to undo it? No, that's insane rhetoric. You're being deliberately hyperbolic — this law doesn't say 'no one may drink soft drink', but limits the manner in which it may be served. How can you not understand the difference? You definitely don't strike me as that stupid.

Steroid wrote:See, throughout that history, no one ever put a moral component to drinking a soda.


You're the one putting a 'moral' component to drinking it, with massive appeals to patriotism and nostalgia. No one in this argument has been trying to apply a 'moral' element — all the arguments have been for health reasons, while 'morality' is the crux of your argument.

Steroid wrote:You might not be able to afford the soda, or you might have better things to do at that time than drink the soda, but up until now, the attitude was that if you’re thirsty, you find a store, buy a soda, and let the sweet goodness run down your throat.


And you can still do this if the law goes through. Seriously Steroid, it's almost as if you're being deliberately deceitful in misrepresenting the law to the point of propaganda. If you want a soft drink, go and buy a soft drink. No one is removing your ability to do so. You're the only person who can't seem to comprehend this point. The law is designed to ban half-litre container refills, not soft drink.

Steroid wrote:That’s tyranny. That’s cultural destruction every bit as much as the genocides of Rwanda or the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. You don’t have to have a body count to kill a culture. Ancient Rome was culturally dead long before the barbarians reached the gates. And our culture is heading for the same cause of death: slow suicide.


That is utterly foul. Not being able to refill containers of soft drink above half a litre is somehow equivalent or even comparable to the slaughter of eight hundred thousand people, the rape of hundreds of thousands of women and girls? No, I reject that notion with utter disgust. Changing the largest refillable cup size is not cultural genocide, and if you believe it is you're living on so different a plane of reality I don't know how you can even pretend to communicate with us.

The rest of your post isn't even worth addressing as it has absolutely nothing to do with this.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:22 pm UTC

The law is designed to ban half-litre container refills, not soft drink.

First they came for the half-litre refills and I stayed quiet; I didn't drink that much coke.
Then they came for the double-pepperoni pizzas and I stayed quiet; I only ate Hawaiian pizzas.
Then they came for the donuts, and I stayed quiet; those are too sweet for me.
When they came for me, they looked sharp in those uniforms.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Steroid » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:34 pm UTC

I'm not going to reply to Yurell, because clearly he's too ignorant or lying. See, I can treat you like shit too.

Zamfir wrote:
The law is designed to ban half-litre container refills, not soft drink.

First they came for the half-litre refills and I stayed quiet; I didn't drink that much coke.
Then they came for the double-pepperoni pizzas and I stayed quiet; I only ate Hawaiian pizzas.
Then they came for the donuts, and I stayed quiet; those are too sweet for me.
When they came for me, they looked sharp in those uniforms.

It's not even the slippery slope argument. (If indeed you're not being sarcastic) It's that Bloomberg, you people here, and every health nut bitching about this is trying to take away normality. Drinking a soda is normal. You're making it into a quandry: "Should I have this? What's the calories? How many carbs are in this? If I take the serving size and divide it into the number of ounces on the container. . . " when all I want to do is drink my drink. And then you people wonder why conservatives want to bring back the 1950s. We're not supposed to be this anal-retentive about everything. Again, it's not about what the law bans or taxes or restricts. This could have been just a speech given at City Hall. It's about the voice of authority trying to make normal people worry about things they shouldn't be. Life's too short. We don't have the time to count sugars.

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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby Plasma Man » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:39 pm UTC

And no-one is making you. You go get your soda. You drink it. If you want more soda, you go and get more. Where is there any problem with that?
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby yurell » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:41 pm UTC

Steroid wrote:I'm not going to reply to Yurell, because clearly he's too ignorant or lying. See, I can treat you like shit too.


Speaking of ignorant, she**

And while you're being happily dishonest, I addressed why you were either lying or ignorant. But I guess if your arguments are so feeble that all you can do is resort to appeals to patriotism and outright lies as to the implications of the law, refusing to continue the discussion is your best bet.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby paulisa » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:42 pm UTC

To me as a non-american, the statement "Drinking a soda is normal" is amazingly amusing.

offensive:
Spoiler:
fucking *water* is normal, and most people would be very happy if they had some


Yeah, that doesn't add much to the discussion, but I don't really have an opinion on the idea. I guess it does restrict freedom and isn't really a response to a specific problem, but nor does it really stop people from drinking as much soda as they feel like.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:43 pm UTC

Steroid, certainly you don't mean to suggest that godless, life-hating hippies like us aren't entitled to a space where we can oppress right-thinking True Americans like you? Personally I think we need to remember that this is Bloomberg's idea, and that makes it sacred.
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Re: New York Mayor wants to ban fountain sodas over 16oz

Postby iamspen » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:45 pm UTC

paulisa wrote:
Spoiler:
fucking *water* is normal, and most people would be very happy if they had some


If you want to be historically accurate (and, in many countries, contemporarily accurate), beer and/or wine are normal, because way back in the day, water was fucking deadly.

In other words, let's all get sloshed!


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