Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:17 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Hadn't Assange been continuously pissing off the US for a while? What exactly do you expect someone to do if they're raped by a person like that?


And this is exactly why is't such a good one.

He might be guilty, he might be innocent but it's socially Unacceptable to fail to assume him guilty. There's not many people in the world wanted by multiple major intelligence organisations but despite their small numbers they of course are major contributers to the sex crime statistics.

if we could be sure of a fair trial it'd be simpler but there's a very strong posibility that he'd simply be shipped off to the US in exchange for some trade deal or something.

And yes, wikileaks had been around for a while but this was just after a major release which grabbed worldwide attention and official outrage do you really think that the wikileaks linked organisations didn't have a few intelligence organisation plants?

I mean the US has agents in it's own anti-war groups.
(http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011 ... llivan.php)
foreign groups like wikileaks and supporting organisations would be prime targets.

this isn't really consipiracy theory level stuff, just plain sense.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:48 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Sweden talked to Ecuador and said they planned to extradite him to the US for that nasty crime of making America look bad. That's what inspired them to grant Assange asylum, as it is their belief that he will not receive a fair trial.


Source please. This topic has gone a whole page of debate without anyone actually backing this statement up. Ideally, I'd like this sort of information from a reliable news source and not a blog.

Also, from the source article:
Ecuador, it's worth noting, has a horrible record on press freedom.


Assuming that is true, why would Ecuador want to protect this guy? Probably not for humanitarian reasons.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:50 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:49 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:He might be guilty, he might be innocent but it's socially Unacceptable to fail to assume him guilty.

Um, you do realize that what omgryebread called "misogynist bullshit" was not "failing to assume him guilty" but rather immediately assuming that he was innocent and that the accusations were a transparent setup?
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby aoeu » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:59 pm UTC

Now is not immediately but many months after the supposed incident.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:04 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:Now is not immediately but many months after the supposed incident.

I surmised from Heisenberg's post that it was immediately upon learning that there was really an accusation of rape.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby netcrusher88 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:11 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:I believe the statements earlier in the thread saying that sweden said they would extradite him aren't quite accurate. The Ecuadorian government asked for a guarantee that he would not be further extradited to the US from sweeden as a condition for handing him over: something that should be very very easy for sweeden to give. They refused.

Sweden.

And, no, as I recall it was the US that refused to guarantee any such thing. Though I suspect the answer was some kind of cryptic "we can't comment on ongoing investigations" which is what fed spooks will tell you no matter what they mean.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:32 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:And, no, as I recall it was the US that refused to guarantee any such thing. Though I suspect the answer was some kind of cryptic "we can't comment on ongoing investigations" which is what fed spooks will tell you no matter what they mean.

nope. sweeden too.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/ass ... 26223.html

The foreign minister said that Ecuador asked Sweden to promise it would not extradite Assange to the United States, but Sweden refused.


And the reason they don't want to let him be extradited to the US:
"If Assange is extradited to U.S., he will not receive a fair trial."
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Gotank » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:51 pm UTC

Regardless of whether or not Ecuador granted Assange asylum for just reasons or self interest, I still think it's great that they did.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:53 pm UTC

So why exactly does Assange need to be extradited to Sweden before he can be extradited to the US? Surely if the US wanted him they could just ask the UK to extradite Assange to them? Or is extradition from Sweden easier due to treaties that I'm not aware of?

Also if the Swedish government says they can not promise to not extradite Assange they are probably quite correct, since in countries that believe in separation of the powers that decision is usually up to the judiciary and not the executive branch.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:05 pm UTC

By my understanding, the Ecuadorian government has been banging on about freedom of speech and equality and all that good stuff, without necessarily practising what they preach. Granting asylum to Assange gives them some modicum of legitimacy without actually costing them very much. So yeah, their reasons are self-interested, but do we actually care at this point? I bet Assange doesn't.

Fake edit:

johnny_7713 wrote:So why exactly does Assange need to be extradited to Sweden before he can be extradited to the US? Surely if the US wanted him they could just ask the UK to extradite Assange to them? Or is extradition from Sweden easier due to treaties that I'm not aware of?


By my understanding, the Swedish government is more overtly pro-USA than the UK government. I don't know if they have any extra treaties which affect extradition procedures, but if the US asked Sweden to extradite Assange, they would be more likely to say yes than if they asked the UK to extradite Assange.

johnny_7713 wrote:Also if the Swedish government says they can not promise to not extradite Assange they are probably quite correct, since in countries that believe in separation of the powers that decision is usually up to the judiciary and not the executive branch.


It should be an easy promise to make regardless of who makes it. As someone mentioned on the first page of this thread, it is EU law that no member nation may extradite an individual to a country where that individual may face the death penalty. All they would be promising is that they would obey the law. The fact that they refuse to even promise that is a very good reason to believe that they would indeed extradite him to the US, if and when he is cleared of the rape charges.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Diadem » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:15 pm UTC

Personally, I have no idea if the charges are true. The timing is very suspicious, and there were some inconsistencies in early reports about the charges. On the other hand, famous people also commit crimes, and rape is common. Inconsistencies in early reports aren't exactly uncommon either. So "he did it" is very plausible, and "He was set up" is also very plausible. A very tricky situation.

Normally as a civilian in cases like this you just sit back and let the judges handle things. But the problem here is that that's not really a good option. If the charges were fabricated, that strongly implies he's not going to receive a fair trial.

I'd say the changes of Assange not receiving a fair trial are at least 10%, and I think most people would agree that 10% doubt constitutes 'reasonable doubt' in criminal matters. So even if I personally believe that he might have done it, I still feel I should support his cause.

The main issue is that Sweden is refusing to promise not to extradite him to the US. This is very worrying, and the main reason Ecuador granted him asylum. Which in itself is refreshing. European countries being lectured about human rights, I like it.

(meanwhile no one is lecturing the US. Them violating human rights doesn't even raise any eyebrows anymore).
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:20 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:(meanwhile no one is lecturing the US. Them violating human rights doesn't even raise any eyebrows anymore).


Seriously. We're the "good guys" who decided it was easier to drone-strike an American citizen rather than bring him to trial, in accordance with our own constitution. A nation of laws, as long as the laws aren't too inconvenient.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby omgryebread » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:The main issue is that Sweden is refusing to promise not to extradite him to the US. This is very worrying, and the main reason Ecuador granted him asylum. Which in itself is refreshing. European countries being lectured about human rights, I like it.
Really? The main reason Ecuador is granting him asylum is concern for his human rights? The government of Ecuador gives 0 fucks about human rights and fair trials.


Radical_Initiator wrote:
Diadem wrote:(meanwhile no one is lecturing the US. Them violating human rights doesn't even raise any eyebrows anymore).


Seriously. We're the "good guys" who decided it was easier to drone-strike an American citizen rather than bring him to trial, in accordance with our own constitution. A nation of laws, as long as the laws aren't too inconvenient.
While the US does a lot of fucked up things, I think it's pretty easy to say that we're better than a lot of our enemies.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:34 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Radical_Initiator wrote:
Diadem wrote:(meanwhile no one is lecturing the US. Them violating human rights doesn't even raise any eyebrows anymore).


Seriously. We're the "good guys" who decided it was easier to drone-strike an American citizen rather than bring him to trial, in accordance with our own constitution. A nation of laws, as long as the laws aren't too inconvenient.
While the US does a lot of fucked up things, I think it's pretty easy to say that we're better than a lot of our enemies.

Overall, I agree, but sometimes I wonder. Is it worse to be the asshole who massacres innocents and commits atrocities, or the asshole who engineers massacres and funds atrocities, funneled through hypocrisy?
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:46 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Really? The main reason Ecuador is granting him asylum is concern for his human rights? The government of Ecuador gives 0 fucks about human rights and fair trials.

Hard to guess really. perhaps someone senior just wants to, perhaps it's in retaliation for some other diplomatic snub, perhaps it's to make a deal later. I too wondered why Ecuador of all places.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby sam_i_am » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:52 pm UTC

While the US does a lot of fucked up things, I think it's pretty easy to say that we're better than a lot of our enemies.


From a foreign perspective, no, It's not easy to say that. Especially considering that the US has been on the side of many oppressive dictators.

Ngo Dinh Diem wasn't necessarily any more benevolent than Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam. the Us has also supported people like Mubarik and Saddam Hussein, who later became our enemy.

We regularly kill civilians in Afghanistan as "collateral damage", In a war where the government we're supporting Is really no less corrupt than the taliban.

not to mention how horrible we were to the native Americans...

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:39 pm UTC

Yep, we're shit. In this order here is what is being said. We're dicks, the Brits are sub dicks controlled by us, and the Swedes are even bigger dicks who have cobbled together a conspiracy to get Assange into American hands. The Justice system of Britain and Sweden, including their High Courts, are vassals of the US. Damn, I thought we were pretty powerful, now I'm sure we are.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: Damn, I thought we were pretty powerful, now I'm sure we are.


Doesn't have to be quite so extreme. A few friendly politicians here and there. A few senior civil servants and the occasional international deal.

I know one of the things revealed in the cables was that a number of the senior politicians in my home country were getting *hem hem* "consulting fees" for briefing US diplomats on various things. I doubt it's much different elsewhere.

They just do in other countries what lobbyists do in the US. Get inside info, make sure the right people are friendly to them and occasionally make a few deals.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Torchship » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:24 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:Um, you do realize that what omgryebread called "misogynist bullshit" was not "failing to assume him guilty" but rather immediately assuming that he was innocent and that the accusations were a transparent setup?


How was what Heisenberg wrote misogynist in any meaningful way? They were doubting the validity of the accusations for reasons entirely unrelated to the sex of the accusers; I suppose you can extend Heisenberg's slight against these particular women to an intended slight against all women, but that strikes me as reaching to find malevolent intent where none exists. At worst, you could accuse Heisenberg of denigrating the plight of rape victims (which is completely different to misogyny, and conflating the two is, itself, sexist).

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:27 pm UTC

Yes, Yes. But that's not what you imply. By implication your saying the Judges of the highest courts in two sovereign countries are going to sign off on a conspiracy to extradite Assange. Either their courts are trustworthy or they are not. I can't speak to Sweden or the UK, but in the US extraditing someone would be subject to review by SCOTUS. Whom I trust even if I don't always agree with.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby PeterCai » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Really? The main reason Ecuador is granting him asylum is concern for his human rights? The government of Ecuador gives 0 fucks about human rights and fair trials.

Back this claim up with evidences
omgryebread wrote:While the US does a lot of fucked up things, I think it's pretty easy to say that we're better than a lot of our enemies.

"While we are bad, we are not as bad as the other guy, I swear!"

morriswalters wrote: but in the US extraditing someone would be subject to review by SCOTUS. Whom I trust even if I don't always agree with.

You mean the same SCOTUS that toed the government line with anything national security related? The same SCOTUS that approved the PATRIOT act? Suuuure bro.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:46 pm UTC

Torchship wrote:How was what Heisenberg wrote misogynist in any meaningful way?

That's a question only omgryebread can answer, since they're the one who said it. I don't know why you wrote that in response to my post.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

PeterCai wrote:You mean the same SCOTUS that toed the government line with anything national security related? The same SCOTUS that approved the PATRIOT act? Suuuure bro.
The same SCOTUS that set Daniel Ellsberg free. I'm open to you showing me any court that does it better when taken in total. If you believe that Assange is a paragon of virtue, or that he doesn't or hasn't had his own axe to grind then more power to you. I believe everyone is working to their own interests. Ecuador, Assange, the US, the British, the Swedish, everyone.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Mambrino » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:28 pm UTC

My skills in Swedish language are even worse than in English, but if I am to believe what I have been able to make out of major morning Swedish newspapers, it seems that there is not a legal way (not at least a clear one) to use this rape-accusation-case to hand Assange over to US government (the 'drop the rape case and extradite him to US' scenario that has been mentioned), and if Swedish government were to do that, it would likely cause a major domestic political shitstorm in Sweden.

For example, (if I'm reading correctly) according to professor/lecturer (not sure about correct translation) from University of Lund, interviewed by Dagens Nyheter, it's quite clear that the decision whether Assange should be extradited from Sweden to US or not (if US were to make such a request) would not even be Sweden's to make; Swedish government could not hand him over without the approval of UK.

Given that Sweden is Sweden and not, for example, Ecuador, I'm willing to bet an object of considerable value (monetary or otherwise) that a) Assange is paranoid, or b) intentionally running away from a fair and just trial which, as he and his legal advisors very well know, he's likely to lose.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:50 pm UTC

Mambrino wrote:My skills in Swedish language are even worse than in English, but if I am to believe what I have been able to make out of major morning Swedish newspapers, it seems that there is not a legal way (not at least a clear one) to use this rape-accusation-case to hand Assange over to US government (the 'drop the rape case and extradite him to US' scenario that has been mentioned), and if Swedish government were to do that, it would likely cause a major domestic political shitstorm in Sweden.

For example, (if I'm reading correctly) according to professor/lecturer (not sure about correct translation) from University of Lund, interviewed by Dagens Nyheter, it's quite clear that the decision whether Assange should be extradited from Sweden to US or not (if US were to make such a request) would not even be Sweden's to make; Swedish government could not hand him over without the approval of UK.

Given that Sweden is Sweden and not, for example, Ecuador, I'm willing to bet an object of considerable value (monetary or otherwise) that a) Assange is paranoid, or b) intentionally running away from a fair and just trial which, as he and his legal advisors very well know, he's likely to lose.


The conviction rate for rape cases in any Western court is famously very low. It is actually very unlikely that Assange would lose if he were given a fair trial in Sweden, depending on what evidence they actually have. But it would tie him up in court long enough for the US to enter its own extradition request with Sweden.

If we were talking about a man who had not pissed off several governments, I might agree that he was being paranoid. In this case, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt; the timing and nature of the allegation stinks of political shenanigans.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Torchship » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:35 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:That's a question only omgryebread can answer, since they're the one who said it. I don't know why you wrote that in response to my post.


You appeared to agree with what omgryebread wrote, hence I assumed you would have your own logical reasons for supporting the accusation in question. If you were simply parroting what was written without considering it's validity, then I withdraw my question to you (though I'm still interested in hearing omgryebread's response).

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Elvish Pillager » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:49 am UTC

Torchship wrote:If you were simply parroting what was written without considering it's validity, then I withdraw my question to you (though I'm still interested in hearing omgryebread's response).

Yeah, that; sorry if it was unclear. HungryHobo was using omgryebread's statement as an example of how (in HungryHobo's belief) people attack those who merely suggest the possibility (as opposed to the certainty) that this was a setup. I merely intended to argue that omgryebread's statement is not that, for which it doesn't really matter whether it is true or not.

I'm also interested in omgryebread's response, although I think it may very well end up being a terminology issue. (Where does the word "misogynist", when applied to a statement, lie on the spectrum between "this statement proves that the speaker personally hates female people for being female" and "this statement at least slightly supports a system of beliefs that often disregards the needs of female people"?)
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby LtNOWIS » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:09 am UTC

I have little doubt the US government wants to screw with Assange and ruin his life, and I'm pretty ok with that situation.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Derek » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:26 am UTC

I don't get all these accusations that the US wouldn't give him a fair trial. Although I'm fairly certain he would be found guilty, I'm confident it would be a fair trial. I wouldn't be surprised if the rape charges were largely trumped up, but as mentioned they mostly exist just to get him extradited to the US. It's also true that he would be facing the possibility of the death penalty, that is the maximum penalty for espionage.

Also, as long as he is on the run,
I have little doubt the US government wants to screw with Assange and ruin his life, and I'm pretty ok with that situation.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby PeterCai » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:39 am UTC

wow, the pure unadulterated american butthurt in this thread is disconcerting.
morriswalters wrote:The same SCOTUS that set Daniel Ellsberg free. I'm open to you showing me any court that does it better when taken in total. If you believe that Assange is a paragon of virtue, or that he doesn't or hasn't had his own axe to grind then more power to you. I believe everyone is working to their own interests. Ecuador, Assange, the US, the British, the Swedish, everyone.

Different time, different SCOTUS. Ruling correctly in the past doesn't erase their many, many recent mistakes.
Yeah, everyone is working for their own interests, that doesn't mean everyone is suddenly on the same moral ground. U.S is working for its interests of destroying a man who showed the world just how ugly it is, and Assange is working on his interests of not being destroyed.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:47 am UTC

PeterCai wrote:wow, the pure unadulterated american butthurt in this thread is disconcerting.
morriswalters wrote:The same SCOTUS that set Daniel Ellsberg free. I'm open to you showing me any court that does it better when taken in total. If you believe that Assange is a paragon of virtue, or that he doesn't or hasn't had his own axe to grind then more power to you. I believe everyone is working to their own interests. Ecuador, Assange, the US, the British, the Swedish, everyone.

Different time, different SCOTUS. Ruling correctly in the past doesn't erase their many, many recent mistakes.
Yeah, everyone is working for their own interests, that doesn't mean everyone is suddenly on the same moral ground. U.S is working for its interests of destroying a man who showed the world just how ugly it is, and Assange is working on his interests of not being destroyed.


Assange (and Wikileaks) are hardly the paragon of open and free leaks. Remember, he's the guy who was trying to set up an exclusive auction system for leaks long before Wikileaks had financial issues like it does today. And the whole falling out with Daniel Domscheit-Berg has left a severe distaste of the man in my mouth. The handling of the Afghanistan War Documents was terrible, with sources getting listed in the open without review. (and I have the page numbers to prove it). I know for a fact that people's lives were put in danger because of the Afghan War Document releases. Granted, they blacked out the docs later... but what has once been released to the internet cannot be unpublished.

And if you watch the Colbert / Assange interview on Collateral murder, Assange doesn't seem to have a real counter-point to Colbert's arguments... except to double-down on his incorrect facts. Assange says "We have classified records that state...", when in fact, those facts were wrong. There have been confirmed reports of an RPG being found at the scene. Furthermore, it seems like the Helicopter was dispatched specifically in response to hostile fire in the area. It is indeed unfortunate that potentially innocent men died there, but the confirmed presence of an RPG really makes me wonder what actually happened.

(Mind you, I have a Marine friend, who was personally shot at by a 14-year old Girl while he was on tour to Iraq. He was forced to respond fire and kill her... and the incident has definitely played heavily on his mind ever since. I'm unsure if we ever will have a full understanding of the Soldier's perspective on these sorts of issues)

It seems like Wikileaks did things better... later... But a second major fail on their part was Cablegate. If at very least, giving an ignorant non-technical journalist the full power to completely unlock the full-text of encrypted cables. Assange later then tried to pin the whole problem on the Journalist, without taking responsibility for his side of the issue. (trying to keep the encrypted files safe and off the internet...)

I honestly hope that Wikileaks can just go ahead and die as an organization. Assange has done his job in demonstrating the power of the Internet for leaks. But in doing so, he seems to have proven himself to be a straight-faced bold lier. Hopefully, more responsible whistleblowing organizations will rise up and take his place. Openleaks seems to have gone Vaporware at this point, but Al-Jazeera and Wall Street Journal are working to improve their "leak safehouses".
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby PeterCai » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:34 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Assange (and Wikileaks) are hardly the paragon of open and free leaks.

Why is the competence of Assange and Wikileaks in any way related to the issues at hand?

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:13 am UTC

PeterCai wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Assange (and Wikileaks) are hardly the paragon of open and free leaks.

Why is the competence of Assange and Wikileaks in any way related to the issues at hand?


I dunno. Why are current and past judgements of the SCOTUS and the US government in any way related to the issues at hand? So far, its between the UK, Sweeden, and Ecuador. :roll:

For a non-troll answer: It sounds like you're trying to put Assange on higher moral ground than everyone else involved right now. If that was not your intention, then the moral ground of the other parties do not matter. As noted by morriswalters, everybody is in it for themselves, and anyone expecting otherwise is deluding themselves.

EDIT: Perhaps this would make the connection more obvious??

PeterCai wrote:wow, the pure unadulterated american butthurt in this thread is disconcerting.
morriswalters wrote:The same SCOTUS that set Daniel Ellsberg free. I'm open to you showing me any court that does it better when taken in total. If you believe that Assange is a paragon of virtue, or that he doesn't or hasn't had his own axe to grind then more power to you. I believe everyone is working to their own interests. Ecuador, Assange, the US, the British, the Swedish, everyone.

Different time, different SCOTUS. Ruling correctly in the past doesn't erase their many, many recent mistakes.
Yeah, everyone is working for their own interests, that doesn't mean everyone is suddenly on the same moral ground. U.S is working for its interests of destroying a man who showed the world just how ugly it is, and Assange is working on his interests of not being destroyed.


Assange has done far more than just "Showing the world how ugly the US was". See my last post for details.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Coyne » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:00 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Assuming that is true, why would Ecuador want to protect this guy? Probably not for humanitarian reasons.


Ecuador's President President Rafael Correa is a member of Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of Our America (ALBA); which was architected by Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) as an alternative to the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA). The FTAA was seen as implementing U. S. hegemony in South America; in that it was formulated so as to favor U. S. interests over all interests of the countries of South America.

If we assume the U. S. really does want Assange, Ecuador could have taken the action out of reasons no greater than to put its thumb in the eye of the U. S.

Assange's approach to Ecuador was very well thought out indeed.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Coyne » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:09 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:So why exactly does Assange need to be extradited to Sweden before he can be extradited to the US? Surely if the US wanted him they could just ask the UK to extradite Assange to them? Or is extradition from Sweden easier due to treaties that I'm not aware of?


I'm guessing that your last question is accurate; that there's some treaty problem that is best solved by routing him through Sweden. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense really.

And who knows if the U. S. is really doing anything? We have assertions that an indictment has been set up; we have the odd circumstances by which the Swedish complaint came to be filed. Beyond that, who knows what's going on?

Frankly, there is a sense of an enormous struggle, but it's not clear what the aim is. Pressure is obviously really high on the U. K. government: As I noted before, at the moment, he is technically out of their reach and they could simply say they'd like to extradite him but he got away. Instead, they threatened to create an international incident with Ecuador (perhaps even an act of war). Hard to see why they're so annoyed unless there's a lot of pressure from somewhere.

Despite the rumor of an indictment, it is doubtful that Assange can actually be prosecuted under U. S. law; it appears that the infraction the U. S. would claim only applies to U. S. citizens. Maybe they want to put Assange in Guantanamo, or rendition him, or something.
In all fairness...

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby PeterCai » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:15 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I dunno. Why are current and past judgements of the SCOTUS and the US government in any way related to the issues at hand? So far, its between the UK, Sweeden, and Ecuador. :roll:

Because the issue is whether or not Assange will receive a fair trial?
KnightExemplar wrote:For a non-troll answer: It sounds like you're trying to put Assange on higher moral ground than everyone else involved right now.

yes
KnightExemplar wrote:As noted by morriswalters, everybody is in it for themselves, and anyone expecting otherwise is deluding themselves.

"The world is evil! I am sooo mature for seeing it! Everybody that wants to make the world better is stuuupid!!! Look at how edgy and cool I am!!!"

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby morriswalters » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:46 pm UTC

PeterCai wrote:wow, the pure unadulterated american butthurt in this thread is disconcerting.
morriswalters wrote:The same SCOTUS that set Daniel Ellsberg free. I'm open to you showing me any court that does it better when taken in total. If you believe that Assange is a paragon of virtue, or that he doesn't or hasn't had his own axe to grind then more power to you. I believe everyone is working to their own interests. Ecuador, Assange, the US, the British, the Swedish, everyone.

Different time, different SCOTUS. Ruling correctly in the past doesn't erase their many, many recent mistakes.
Yeah, everyone is working for their own interests, that doesn't mean everyone is suddenly on the same moral ground. U.S is working for its interests of destroying a man who showed the world just how ugly it is, and Assange is working on his interests of not being destroyed.
And just because you believe that he did good doesn't mean there is not an alternative point of view. In terms of SCOTUS I take the long view, rather than the short. And you didn't answer my question, Is anyone doing it better? I knew government was dirty before Assange showed up. It will be dirty after he's gone, and nothing will change. When you put on big boy pants and play big boy games you have to expect what comes with it. I think it might be for the best that Assange go to Ecuador, let him see how it works in societies that may not be as open as he is used to. But if we are out to get him at any price he will be got. He's trapped like a rat and all because he couldn't didn't use good judgement on who he slept with.

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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:05 pm UTC

PeterCai wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I dunno. Why are current and past judgements of the SCOTUS and the US government in any way related to the issues at hand? So far, its between the UK, Sweeden, and Ecuador. :roll:

Because the issue is whether or not Assange will receive a fair trial?


For what? In the US, he is most certainly connected with one of the largest leaks in history. One in which we can provably demonstrate that people's lives were put at risk by the information he helped leak. At very least, the War Logs detail how Soldiers respond and report to incidents. Outside of legitimate war targets, there were also the names and locations of Afghan civilians who helped the US in those logs. We all know he's Bradley Manning's foreign national contact, himself on trial for endangering lives with these leaks. So from the US's perspective, it is fair that he's treated like a foreign spy that he is. Assange may have done this through ignorance and incompetence... but the effect is the same.

Treated fairly in Sweeden? The rape case is still up in the air, and it is clear that Assange running away from this issue is certainly not justice. Publicly, Assange's views have not helped him look like a Misogynistic bastard. Worse, Assange certainly didn't like it when details of the Rape charge were leaked out, making the whole leak thing rather one-sided (its fine when Assange leaks stuff. But its not good when stuff is leaked about Assange??)

Treated fairly in the UK? He has now violated the terms of his bail.

By every country's individual justice system, Assange has reason to at very least get arrested and sent to trial.

KnightExemplar wrote:
PeterCai wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:As noted by morriswalters, everybody is in it for themselves, and anyone expecting otherwise is deluding themselves.

"The world is evil! I am sooo mature for seeing it! Everybody that wants to make the world better is stuuupid!!! Look at how edgy and cool I am!!!"


Glad to know you are taking this seriously.

More realistically, I expect more from Assange than the behavior he has put forth so far. If he were more like Thomas Drake, who respected the information he was leaking... and only discussed details that were relevant to waste, fraud, and potential constitutional issues... I'd be supportive of him. If he were more like Jesselyn Radack who saw specific injustice and brought it out to our attention, then Assange would be a hero.

You can't just accept what every whistleblower says. Just like everything else in the world, there are good ones, and there are bad ones. Assange is one of the bad ones.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby Angua » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:29 pm UTC

Moving on, the OAS is meeting to talk about the fact that the UK threatened to revoke diplomatic status of the embassy. Interestingly, they're having it in Washington DC despite the fact that the US (as well as Canada and T&T) disagreed with needing to have a meeting about this.
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Re: Assange Gets Asylum, UK says it doesn't matter

Postby el matematico » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:32 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:Really? The main reason Ecuador is granting him asylum is concern for his human rights? The government of Ecuador gives 0 fucks about human rights and fair trials.

Ecuador really has an isue with capital punishment and it wouldn't be the first time the government steps in to protect someone who may face it, like was the case with Nelson Serrano a few years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Serrano.

Probably the main reason for granting assylum to Assange is what Coyne said
If we assume the U. S. really does want Assange, Ecuador could have taken the action out of reasons no greater than to put its thumb in the eye of the U. S.


There's also an incident in which wikileaks revealed something about one of the US embassies in Ecuador (I can't find exactly what happened now), which resulted in the US ambassador being extradited and the US responding by doing the same with an Ecuadorian ambassador. So it's likely that Correa is also interested in getting information from Assange in exchange for assylum.
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