2012 U.S. Presidential Election

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Xeio » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

Darryl wrote:Remember, the GOP is still considering people like Michelle Bachmann as possible candidates.
Remember, Michelle Bachmann is currently a US senator.

Oh gods.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Radical_Initiator » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Darryl wrote:Remember, the GOP is still considering people like Michelle Bachmann as possible candidates.
Remember, Michelle Bachmann is currently a US senator.

Oh gods.

Nah, she's still just a Representative. Praise be to Jeebus for small miracles.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Xeio » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:35 pm UTC

Ah, whoops, misread Wikipedia, currently a representative, yes. Previously a senator though (up till 2007).

So... uh... marginally better.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby omgryebread » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:47 pm UTC

That was state senate though. State senates are where you get the real crazy people. State senates suck.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:11 pm UTC

Darryl wrote:Remember, the GOP is still considering people like Michelle Bachmann as possible candidates.
I think you have that backwards. Only people like Michelle Bachmann would consider running for president against the guy who so thoroughly crushed John McCain.

Once Obama is waning, and assuming Biden is too old to run, the field will open up and Republicans will think they can win again. That opens up the possibility for immigration reform with Rubio 2016.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Darryl » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Darryl wrote:Remember, the GOP is still considering people like Michelle Bachmann as possible candidates.
I think you have that backwards. Only people like Michelle Bachmann would consider running for president against the guy who so thoroughly crushed John McCain.

Once Obama is waning, and assuming Biden is too old to run, the field will open up and Republicans will think they can win again. That opens up the possibility for immigration reform with Rubio 2016.

I'm pretty sure we're gonna see Clinton 2016, though.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:42 pm UTC

When she's 70 years old? She'd be the oldest president ever inaugurated.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:57 pm UTC

She's said she's not only not running, but probably retiring from politics altogether come 2013.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Xeio » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:When she's 70 years old? She'd be the oldest president ever inaugurated.
Looks like Regan would beat her byhalf a year (she would be 69.4-ish, Regan was days shy of 70).

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:54 am UTC

Warren 2016!!!
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:00 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:That was state senate though. State senates are where you get the real crazy people. State senates suck.

Ja, NH has that one guy who wants every bill to be referenced to the fucking Magna Carta.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:When she's 70 years old? She'd be the oldest president ever inaugurated.
Looks like Regan would beat her byhalf a year (she would be 69.4-ish, Regan was days shy of 70).

Whoops. Bad math. She'll be turning 69 in 2016. I thought she would be 69 turning 70. Still, with all the problems Reagan had, age would certainly be an issue.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Derek » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:49 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Ja, NH has that one guy who wants every bill to be referenced to the fucking Magna Carta.

That sounds more like a parody of the strict Constitutionalists than an actual position.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:55 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Ja, NH has that one guy who wants every bill to be referenced to the fucking Magna Carta.

That sounds more like a parody of the strict Constitutionalists than an actual position.



http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2012/HB1580.html

He is, sadly, quite serious.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Derek » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:15 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
Derek wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Ja, NH has that one guy who wants every bill to be referenced to the fucking Magna Carta.

That sounds more like a parody of the strict Constitutionalists than an actual position.



http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2012/HB1580.html

He is, sadly, quite serious.

That still doesn't mean he's serious. I've seen sarcastic bills before. Of course, I don't know the guy, maybe he is serious, but it sounds far too much like parody.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:23 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:
Derek wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Ja, NH has that one guy who wants every bill to be referenced to the fucking Magna Carta.

That sounds more like a parody of the strict Constitutionalists than an actual position.



http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2012/HB1580.html

He is, sadly, quite serious.

That still doesn't mean he's serious. I've seen sarcastic bills before. Of course, I don't know the guy, maybe he is serious, but it sounds far too much like parody.


Some other things Kingsbury has offered: forcing schools to offer Bible classes, removal of direct voting for Senators,requiring students stand during the Pledge of Allegiance (which I believe was tested in the SCOTUS during Vietnam and thrown out), requiring the Feds to inform local police before doing anything within state boundaries, a constitutional amendment making the minimum age for judges 60 years old, and the usual bullshit of withdrawing from the UN and establishing a state 'defense force' (because apparently he's never heard of the National Guard).

Seriously, look him up on Youtube. the guy is crazy serious. And by that I mean just plain crazy.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:01 am UTC

Removal of direct voting for senators and withdrawing from the UN are the sanest things on that list. Not that I'm advocating those things, just saying, damn, that's a list.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:06 am UTC

I don't think withdrawing from the UN is all that sane. Permanent veto power on the UNSC is a pretty sweet deal to throw away for...something?

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:51 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I don't think withdrawing from the UN is all that sane. Permanent veto power on the UNSC is a pretty sweet deal to throw away for...something?

Nobody thinks about that when they denigrate the UN, people either think its useless, or trying to start a new world order.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby yurell » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:54 am UTC

Ermmm, permanent veto power is what a lot of people think when they denigrate the UN, in fact it's quite often a major complaint.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:01 am UTC

I'm assuming that's true for citizens of 188 of the member nations.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Diadem » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:18 am UTC

I think the permanent veto makes sense in the light of "Let's not have a global nuclear war". The security council was founded to avoid a direct conflict between the world's nuclear powers. For that reason they were given vetos: If the UN only ever acts with the permission of all nuclear players, then it can't piss of any of them enough to risk nuclear war.

The trouble comes when people start assigning some sort of moral value to UN decisions. Countries get chastised for ignoring UN resolutions, and UN decisions are hailed as 'the will of the world' or something pretentious like that. The UN is not concerned with what is right, or just (well, to be fair, some parts are. Such as unicef. But most of the UN isn't. And the UNSC certainly isn't). Half its members are dictatorship, and all of them are generally assholes.

The UN is not meant to be a moral agent, but people see it as one, and that sad mistake leads to a lot of trouble.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Derek » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:39 am UTC

eran_rathan wrote:Some other things Kingsbury has offered: forcing schools to offer Bible classes, removal of direct voting for Senators,requiring students stand during the Pledge of Allegiance (which I believe was tested in the SCOTUS during Vietnam and thrown out), requiring the Feds to inform local police before doing anything within state boundaries, a constitutional amendment making the minimum age for judges 60 years old, and the usual bullshit of withdrawing from the UN and establishing a state 'defense force' (because apparently he's never heard of the National Guard).

Seriously, look him up on Youtube. the guy is crazy serious. And by that I mean just plain crazy.

I think those links are enough evidence. I'm convinced.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:59 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I don't think withdrawing from the UN is all that sane. Permanent veto power on the UNSC is a pretty sweet deal to throw away for...something?


Saner than mandating bible classes in school. Still not a brilliant idea. Tossing away the veto power is probably not desirable. Now, I get some people's complaints with the UN...like the fact that monetarily and militarily, we end up bearing the brunt of the actual costs for UN actions anyway, but that can probably be addressed at a level short of taking our ball and going home.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:34 pm UTC

Apparently about half of Republicans think ACORN stole the election for the Democrats:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main ... -well.html


tldr: ACORN doesn't exist anymore.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Yakk » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:39 pm UTC

Only 49%, that is less than half. And down from 52% last election, demonstrating that non existence makes one only 94% as scary as existence.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby kiklion » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:51 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Only 49%, that is less than half. And down from 52% last election, demonstrating that non existence makes one only 94% as scary as existence.


Imagine how scary God would be if it was real then?

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:20 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Apparently about half of Republicans think ACORN stole the election for the Democrats:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main ... -well.html


tldr: ACORN doesn't exist anymore.

Do you think that Barack Obama legitimately won the Presidential election this year, or do you think that ACORN stole it for him?

That's a pretty awful way to phrase that. I'm sure plenty of folks want to attack Obama's legitimacy for any reason at all, so offering them only one option isn't really an indicator of whether or not they have any idea what ACORN is. Really the only conclusion is that 25% of the respondents think that his election wasn't legitimate.

In the same vein: Should Donald Trump receive the Nobel Peace Prize, or did aliens program him to be an asshole?

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby folkhero » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:49 pm UTC

You know how you're always hearing crazy statistics like 20% of Americans believe that Elvis isn't dead? Well that's because if a pollster asks someone, "do you believe X?" where X is something crazy and outlandish, then it immediately gives some credibility to X in the mind of the person being asked. Why would a professional pollster even waste their time asking such a thing unless there was something to it? So if X doesn't actively contradict their other held beliefs, some people will say yes. If X is something that confirms their beliefs or is comforting on it's own, then a lot more will say yes.

If Romney had won, and the pollsters asked Democrats, "Do you think Mittens legitimately won the election, or do you think wealthy industrialist [made up name] stole it from him?" I wonder what numbers would come out. Hell, even now, there is this story going around that Karl Rove tried to steal the election, and the heroes at Anonymous stopped him with their 1337 haxorZ skills
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Malice » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:50 am UTC

That same PPP poll included a question to see how people felt about Simpson-Bowles, the deficit reduction plan that didn't get implemented. 39% of people had an opinion, whereas only 25% of people had an opinion on Panetta-Burns, a fictional plan that PPP made up to see how many morons would say they opposed or supported something just because they were being asked about it by a pollster.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:55 am UTC

Malice wrote:That same PPP poll included a question to see how people felt about Simpson-Bowles, the deficit reduction plan that didn't get implemented. 39% of people had an opinion, whereas only 25% of people had an opinion on Panetta-Burns, a fictional plan that PPP made up to see how many morons would say they opposed or supported something just because they were being asked about it by a pollster.

That's not to find morons, it's to establish a control so you can identify bias. If they suspected that some people will agree to a plan even if they made it up, it should be measured to give some perspective on a follow up poll.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Роберт » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:54 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote: Should Donald Trump receive the Nobel Peace Prize, or did aliens program him to be an asshole?

Yes.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/us/po ... f=politics
Senator Demint to leave the Senate in January after serving 8 years. Strange, why would he leave? Senator must surely be better than Heritage foundation leader. No expected changes to the Senate, GOP governor will nominate a successor to run in an election in 2014. So off year + appointment means status quo.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Darryl » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:02 am UTC

sardia wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/us/politics/jim-demint-to-leave-senate-to-run-heritage-foundation.html?ref=politics
Senator Demint to leave the Senate in January after serving 8 years. Strange, why would he leave? Senator must surely be better than Heritage foundation leader. No expected changes to the Senate, GOP governor will nominate a successor to run in an election in 2014. So off year + appointment means status quo.

Heritage Foundation makes more money and doesn't have to pretend to care about his constituents.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby sigsfried » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:20 am UTC

sardia wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/us/politics/jim-demint-to-leave-senate-to-run-heritage-foundation.html?ref=politics
Senator Demint to leave the Senate in January after serving 8 years. Strange, why would he leave? Senator must surely be better than Heritage foundation leader. No expected changes to the Senate, GOP governor will nominate a successor to run in an election in 2014. So off year + appointment means status quo.


Sorry can you explain? Are you saying that if a US politician resigns somebody just appoints the replacement, why is a byelection not held?

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Eseell » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:26 am UTC

The election of senators to the US Senate is governed by the 17th Amendment to the US Constitution. The text that relates to vacancies reads:

The 17th Amendment wrote:When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.


So, yes, there's supposed to be an election to replace them, but individual states can decide to let the governor appoint a replacement until such an election takes place, and can also make their own laws as far as when that election takes place.

ETA: Prior to the 17th Amendment, election of senators was done by the state legislatures instead of the general voting public, in case you're wondering why the amendment exists at all. The original concept was that the House of Representatives represented the general public and the US Senate represented the issues of the state governments themselves, placing the houses in a bit more contrast than they have now.
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:28 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Apparently about half of Republicans think ACORN stole the election for the Democrats:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main ... -well.html


tldr: ACORN doesn't exist anymore.


Yeah, Acorn def had some bad apples, but I don't understand why it still gets brought up. And frankly, they never had the scale of pull to swing a presidential election IMO.

People are comin' up with all kinds of crazy reasons why the election is lot, because they emotionally can't accept defeat.

I must agree though, that the poll question is automatically a false dichotomy.

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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Postby Malice » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:31 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Thesh wrote:Apparently about half of Republicans think ACORN stole the election for the Democrats:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main ... -well.html


tldr: ACORN doesn't exist anymore.


Yeah, Acorn def had some bad apples, but I don't understand why it still gets brought up. And frankly, they never had the scale of pull to swing a presidential election IMO.

People are comin' up with all kinds of crazy reasons why the election is lot, because they emotionally can't accept defeat.

I must agree though, that the poll question is automatically a false dichotomy.


ACORN was defrauded by its own employees, who submitted false registrations that were then caught in the system. They didn't have the scale of pull to swing an election for dogcatcher, because no false votes were or could have been cast at all. I know how you stand here and I'm just trying to point out that you're not calling this ridiculous enough, because to pretend ACORN could even with the realm of possibility have had any pull, swing, or that they make sense in the context of election fraud at all, is simply wrong, fullstop.

Also, I think part of the reason people are coming up with these crazy ideas is the conservative echo chamber (what some are calling the "epistemic closure") that told them "Romney will win in a landslide, all the other polls and pundits are lying or biased"; so now, caught between realizing that their media sources were themselves lying or biased or, on the other hand, finding any other possible explanation, no matter how insane, many people are choosing to believe the logical equivalent of "Fox News was right but the election was stolen when no one was looking by leprechauns working for George Soros."
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