Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

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Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby liveboy21 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:06 am UTC

Here's the link to the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
or http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-abortion-scrutiny-death

Quotes from the BBC article:
Savita Halappanavar's family said she asked several times for her pregnancy to be terminated because she had severe back pain and was miscarrying.
Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat.


He said she continued to experience pain and asked a consultant if she could be induced.
"They said unfortunately she can't because it's a Catholic country," Mr Halappanavar said.
"Savita said to her she is not Catholic, she is Hindu, and why impose the law on her.
"But she said 'I'm sorry, unfortunately it's a Catholic country' and it's the law that they can't abort when the foetus is live."


He said some of Savita's organs stopped functioning and she died on Sunday 28 October.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby yurell » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:27 am UTC

That's been all over every single blog I've read for the past day or two; suffice to say what the hospital did is wicked, cruel and the reason why religion needs to be chased out of these sorts of institutions.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby snow5379 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:00 am UTC

What does "being Catholic" have to do with abortion? Isn't abortion actively practiced in the Bible anyway?

Oh right I almost forgot modern religions have nothing to do with the namesake religions they're based off of.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:14 am UTC

This is a pretty good argument for a pro-choice attitude. I hope Mrs Halappanavar didn't die in vain, but for her families sake I also hope that they are left alone.

If you'd asked me a couple of days ago, I'd probably have guessed that Hindus were not big fans of abortion. it makes you think when a supposedly first world religion is so much less liberal than what is supposed to be a third world religion.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby snow5379 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:30 am UTC

I don't think religion has anything to do with abortion and I'm sure any correlation between the two is based on other factors such as culture and such. People might use religion as an excuse for why they're against abortion but I highly doubt that's really a deciding factor for them. They'd probably be against it even if they were atheists.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Green9090 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:40 am UTC

snow5379 wrote:They'd probably be against it even if they were atheists.

I don't think this is the case. A lot of people really do get their morals from whatever their pastor tells them and don't give it any thought themselves. If those people were atheists, I think they would be the kind of atheists who get their opinions by disagreeing with religion indiscriminately.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Angua » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:51 am UTC

A month or so ago someone posted an Irish antiabortion video on facebook that said that it was a lie that women in Ireland could die because of this, and that people in other countries are over-eager to kill babies to protect the mother when it wasn't necessary.

I hope this case blows that out of the water. Pregnancy can still kill in the Western world, and women should have a say in how much risk they are willing to take.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:36 am UTC

the crazy thing is that it would have been legal under irish law when the life of the mother was at stake. the doctors should be struck off.

from what I can gather it's a catholic thing. groups like youth defense claim that the catholic church allows it in such cases but it's more subtle than that. the catholic church never allows any procedure with the intent to end the life of the foetus. even if the pregnancy is killing you. they'll excommunicate everyone involved in any way. and have done in the past. it does however allow procedures which as an unfortunate side effect may cause miscarriage like chemotherapy.

the church is deeply evil.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Bsob » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

Green9090 wrote:
snow5379 wrote:They'd probably be against it even if they were atheists.

I don't think this is the case. A lot of people really do get their morals from whatever their pastor tells them and don't give it any thought themselves.

[Citation needed]

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:00 pm UTC

It's not clear yet whether the delay in this woman's abortion caused her death. The miscarriage certainly is related to the septicemia, but the hospital and the government are still investigating whether or not getting the baby out a few days earlier would have saved her life or not.

Even so, the doctor was clearly in the wrong here. Irish law allows abortion when the mother's life is at risk, but leaves that decision up to the doctor. The answer to that question is yes or no, not "Ireland is a Catholic country." His job is to determine whether or not her life was at risk, and inform her of her options, none of that involves preaching.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Angua » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:17 pm UTC

Removing the source of the infection is always the best treatment for septicaemia (though not always the most possible treatment, depends on where the source is), especially as the guardian article indicates that she was having severe sepsis and they refused to abort the pregnancy
"That evening, she developed shakes and shivering [ie RIGORS] and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took blood and started her on antibiotics.

"The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn't."

Rigors and vomiting show that she has severe sepsis, and that is a life-treatening condintion. Getting as much bacteria out of the body as you can (especially if you have an easily accessible source, and the patient is obviously willing to undergo the treatment) is really the best course of action. Even more especially as there was no chance of the baby surviving anyway and they'd told her she was having a miscarriage.

Now, the guardian article has her asking for one 3 times (the 3rd being after the rigors had set in), so I can see an argument that the first 2 times she was turned down wouldn't have made a difference depending on how often a prolonged miscarriage leads to sepsis, but once the sepsis has set in, I don't see how they have an excuse.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Xeio » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:27 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Irish law allows abortion when the mother's life is at risk, but leaves that decision up to the doctor.
And if someone in the legal system decides the doctor didn't make the "right" decision they can get prosecuted. Oops, you shouldn't have tried to save that woman's life after all...

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:37 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:And if someone in the legal system decides the doctor didn't make the "right" decision they can get prosecuted. Oops, you shouldn't have tried to save that woman's life after all...

practically speaking if a doctor cuts someone open with a scalpel and they die someone in the legal system can decide that the doctor didn't make the "right" decision and prosecute them for murder.

surgerys still happen and in practice abortions do happen in ireland under certain circumstances ( if the mothers life is in danger) .

that's why I say these doctors should be struck off. they weren't acting based on irish law but rather based on catholic dogma.
Last edited by HungryHobo on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Xeio » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

Last I checked surgery isn't hyper-politicized though, and there aren't large scale protests for pro- and anti- surgery groups. Doctors don't face stigmatization of their professional career for performing a surgery.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:54 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Last I checked surgery isn't hyper-politicized though, and there aren't large scale protests for pro- and anti- surgery groups. Doctors don't face stigmatization of their professional career for performing a surgery.


if you were a surgeon about to cut open the child of someone powerful would you feel so safe?
Lots of people blame the doctor if a normal surgery goes bad and a loved one dies. if they have some serious clout then you're at real risk.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Bsob » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:00 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Last I checked surgery isn't hyper-politicized though, and there aren't large scale protests for pro- and anti- surgery groups. Doctors don't face stigmatization of their professional career for performing a surgery.


So what?

The law says an abortion could have happened.

The situation dictated that an abortion should have happened.

The doctor(s) fucked up.

If the headline was "Doctor loses licence for preforming legal and needed abortion" you might have a point. I know the internet loves an excuse for an abortion thread, but the fault here lies squarely on the doctor's shoulders.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:01 pm UTC

Bsob wrote: but the fault here lies squarely on the doctor's shoulders.

and the church.
this really is one where the church holds some of the ball.
they've been playing the "a child is not an illness ever" line a lot.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:17 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
Bsob wrote: but the fault here lies squarely on the doctor's shoulders.

and the church.
this really is one where the church holds some of the ball.
they've been playing the "a child is not an illness ever" line a lot.


This reminded me of something regarding this topic that has always struck me as odd.

Do aborted babies go to Heaven?

Suppose this is the case. It seems to me that, especially in the case where the child would be born into a Hindu family (setting aside the health issues for a moment and assuming a normal pregnancy), the probability of the child ending up Catholic and going to Heaven is fairly low. Most likely, this person will end up in Hell, according to their theology. However, if they are aborted, they go straight to Heaven. Hence, abortion is in fact preferable, since a person who is likely to go to Hell ends up in Heaven. Now, it may be a mortal sin to perform an abortion; however, mortal sins can be forgiven anyway, and if the patient or the doctor are also themselves not Catholic, then it doesn't matter because they're already going to Hell. Though frankly, even if the abortion doctor happened to be Catholic, I think the argument could be made that sending a large number of people straight to Heaven is worth the price for one person going to Hell. There's a lot of weird incentives that come into play when the rewards in the afterlife are infinitely greater than the rewards in this one.

If aborted babies go to Hell, then, at least, there's some consistency in this respect. Although, considering infant mortality rates and whatnot, one might argue that Catholics should be the world's most powerful advocates of contraception, since the risks associated with pregnancy are so high. Of course, there's the question of justice here: Is it really reasonable that a loving and caring God would send unborn children--through no fault of their own--to Hell? That's a pretty hard sell, though I've heard people making this claim before (not Catholics, necessarily). If there's some intermediate between the two (non-existence, say), then it depends exactly on exactly what value is placed on going to that place versus the risk of that person going to Hell if they live. One could conceivably argue, however, that even if the probability of someone going to Hell is fairly small when they're alive, the risk of being wrong is so high that you're probably better off aborting anyway. It's like Pascal's Wager in reverse.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby DSenette » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:35 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
HungryHobo wrote:
Bsob wrote: but the fault here lies squarely on the doctor's shoulders.

and the church.
this really is one where the church holds some of the ball.
they've been playing the "a child is not an illness ever" line a lot.


This reminded me of something regarding this topic that has always struck me as odd.

Do aborted babies go to Heaven?

Suppose this is the case. It seems to me that, especially in the case where the child would be born into a Hindu family (setting aside the health issues for a moment and assuming a normal pregnancy), the probability of the child ending up Catholic and going to Heaven is fairly low. Most likely, this person will end up in Hell, according to their theology. However, if they are aborted, they go straight to Heaven. Hence, abortion is in fact preferable, since a person who is likely to go to Hell ends up in Heaven. Now, it may be a mortal sin to perform an abortion; however, mortal sins can be forgiven anyway, and if the patient or the doctor are also themselves not Catholic, then it doesn't matter because they're already going to Hell. Though frankly, even if the abortion doctor happened to be Catholic, I think the argument could be made that sending a large number of people straight to Heaven is worth the price for one person going to Hell. There's a lot of weird incentives that come into play when the rewards in the afterlife are infinitely greater than the rewards in this one.

If aborted babies go to Hell, then, at least, there's some consistency in this respect. Although, considering infant mortality rates and whatnot, one might argue that Catholics should be the world's most powerful advocates of contraception, since the risks associated with pregnancy are so high. Of course, there's the question of justice here: Is it really reasonable that a loving and caring God would send unborn children--through no fault of their own--to Hell? That's a pretty hard sell, though I've heard people making this claim before (not Catholics, necessarily). If there's some intermediate between the two (non-existence, say), then it depends exactly on exactly what value is placed on going to that place versus the risk of that person going to Hell if they live. One could conceivably argue, however, that even if the probability of someone going to Hell is fairly small when they're alive, the risk of being wrong is so high that you're probably better off aborting anyway. It's like Pascal's Wager in reverse.

AFAIK aborted or stillborn babies, or any baby that dies before baptism goes to purgatory. baptism is the only thing that removes original sin, if you die with sin, you go to AT LEAST purgatory

also AFAIK you can do post mortum baptisms on stillborn babies or babies that die before baptism. i don't see why you couldn't do one on an aborted fetus...hell, i don't see why you couldn't do one on the sly on an aborted hindu fetus just to keep krishna's many hands off of it's immortal soul.

the mormons baptize all kinds of dead people. maybe the catholics should follow suit
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby morriswalters » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:11 pm UTC

Why does anyone who supports abortion, care about what the church says about the fetus? They certainly don't mind ending its existence(versus ending its life). If you on the other hand buy into the baby having a soul than the question of infant damnation makes some perverse sense, whatever the answer. The women in question was the victim of poor medical practice and even poorer National policy.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby addams » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:36 am UTC

Laser Guy;
That was some nice museing. Pascal's wager frontwards and backwards.
That should be the last words on the subject.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:21 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote: If there's some intermediate between the two (non-existence, say), then it depends exactly on exactly what value is placed on going to that place versus the risk of that person going to Hell if they live. One could conceivably argue, however, that even if the probability of someone going to Hell is fairly small when they're alive, the risk of being wrong is so high that you're probably better off aborting anyway. It's like Pascal's Wager in reverse.



it's limbo rather than pergatory.
also they changed their official position recently.
http://voices.yahoo.com/pope-benedict-x ... html?cat=7

though the problem with that wager is that the official position is that everyone who takes part or facilitates it in any way ends up guaranteed to go to hell.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby addams » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:08 am UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: If there's some intermediate between the two (non-existence, say), then it depends exactly on exactly what value is placed on going to that place versus the risk of that person going to Hell if they live. One could conceivably argue, however, that even if the probability of someone going to Hell is fairly small when they're alive, the risk of being wrong is so high that you're probably better off aborting anyway. It's like Pascal's Wager in reverse.



it's limbo rather than pergatory.
also they changed their official position recently.
http://voices.yahoo.com/pope-benedict-x ... html?cat=7

though the problem with that wager is that the official position is that everyone who takes part or facilitates it in any way ends up guaranteed to go to hell.

Oh, yes. This thing fliped on its ear, again.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby addams » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:21 am UTC

The difference between heaven and hell is the company you keep.

All those people that go to work and get the job done with compassion, fair humor and even hand would make anyplace better.

Creepy, judgmental trolls can make heavn hellish.

We have to hand it to the Catholics. They have the best buildings. Therfore; They must be right.

Pfft. They are right about buildings.

How can a group be so right about one thing and so wrong about another?

It happens all the time.
An example: ??

oh. the manhatin project.
they got a whole lot right.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:49 am UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: If there's some intermediate between the two (non-existence, say), then it depends exactly on exactly what value is placed on going to that place versus the risk of that person going to Hell if they live. One could conceivably argue, however, that even if the probability of someone going to Hell is fairly small when they're alive, the risk of being wrong is so high that you're probably better off aborting anyway. It's like Pascal's Wager in reverse.



it's limbo rather than pergatory.
also they changed their official position recently.
http://voices.yahoo.com/pope-benedict-x ... html?cat=7

though the problem with that wager is that the official position is that everyone who takes part or facilitates it in any way ends up guaranteed to go to hell.


Sure, but that means you just want the same person/people performing all of the abortions. If one person performs 10000 abortions, then they send 10000 souls to Heaven/limbo at the cost of one.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby yurell » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:15 am UTC

Indeed, surely sacrificing yourself to hell that thousands can go to heaven is a noble deed? I mean, Jesus' sacrifice was so great (three days on a cross and then eternity in paradise) that it could earn forgiveness for everyone; imagine what condemning yourself to eternal perdition is compared to that!
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby sardia » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:59 am UTC

It's been done before. The jews at their version of the Alamo decided to kill themselves before the Romans captured them. They had one guy kill everyone or something like that so that only one of them would go to hell. Of course, I don't think religions is allowed to be this meta. Maybe the preacher's union has an answer to this extraordinary question?

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby BlackSails » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:15 am UTC

sardia wrote:It's been done before. The jews at their version of the Alamo decided to kill themselves before the Romans captured them. They had one guy kill everyone or something like that so that only one of them would go to hell. Of course, I don't think religions is allowed to be this meta.


Thats not quite right

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:44 am UTC

Josephus recorded that the Zealots at Masada killed each other by lot until there was only one left (excluding two women and five children who hid in a cistern) who killed himself. He also wrote that while he was fighting the Romans he and 40 other Jewish rebels were trapped in a cave and killed each other by lot until only Josephus was left. He was supposed to kill himself in the end, but surrendered to the Romans instead. There is apparently some dispute on the accuracy of his account, although I don't know the details. AFAIK, Josephus' account has been popularly accepted as true.

And, yeah, organized religions generally are not in favor of "gaming the system" so to speak.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby HungryHobo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:15 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Sure, but that means you just want the same person/people performing all of the abortions. If one person performs 10000 abortions, then they send 10000 souls to Heaven/limbo at the cost of one.

unfortunately they'd say that the mothers and everyone else who allows it to happen would too.

unless of course the mother doesn't agree to it though then this mass-abortion drive to save the souls of the innocent gets even more dark.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby morriswalters » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

You could game the Church but but you can't game God. Or to say it differently God has perfect information, kind of like Santa Claus. A theist might say that the inconsistencies like infant damnation that man finds in the Bible are due to mans imperfect interpretations of the Scripture. Santa Claus on the other hand uses magic and therefore doesn't have that problem.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby sardia » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:You could game the Church but but you can't game God. Or to say it differently God has perfect information, kind of like Santa Claus. A theist might say that the inconsistencies like infant damnation that man finds in the Bible are due to mans imperfect interpretations of the Scripture. Santa Claus on the other hand uses magic and therefore doesn't have that problem.

Pfft, that's even if you're praying to the right god. What if the scientologists were right?

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Diadem » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:57 pm UTC

yurell wrote:I mean, Jesus' sacrifice was so great (three days on a cross and then eternity in paradise) that it could earn forgiveness for everyone;

I read this awesome piece once, I have no idea by whom, or where I read it. It argued first of all that since god is perfect, then logically his sacrifice will be perfect as well. Three days on the cross is, no doubt, three days of horrible suffering, so a great sacrifice. But hardly a perfect one. Condemning your own soul to hell though, that is a perfect sacrifice. So the true son of god, who died for our sins, was not Jesus, but, in fact, Judas.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:05 pm UTC

I've read something to similar effect, saying that Judas and Jesus together decided that someone had to 'take the fall', so to speak, to be the devils advocate (badum-ting!) that let Jesus be what he needed to be.

Or wait, maybe I'm thinking of that Outer Limits episode where the astronauts returning to home become infected with some hive mind space bug parasite, and the uninfected one chooses to somewhat publically sabotage the mission and save the world, his sacrifice being that no one would ever recognize what he had done to save the day...
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:24 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I've read something to similar effect, saying that Judas and Jesus together decided that someone had to 'take the fall', so to speak, to be the devils advocate (badum-ting!) that let Jesus be what he needed to be.

Or wait, maybe I'm thinking of that Outer Limits episode where the astronauts returning to home become infected with some hive mind space bug parasite, and the uninfected one chooses to somewhat publically sabotage the mission and save the world, his sacrifice being that no one would ever recognize what he had done to save the day...

They had that story in one of the early renditions of Christianity before they coalesced into a single group. They threw out the "Judas is a secret agent/hero" storyline in favor of the version we had now.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:39 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Hence, abortion is in fact preferable, since a person who is likely to go to Hell ends up in Heaven.

Right, if you replace Catholic moral theology with utiliatrianism then it no longer condemns abortion.
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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:49 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Hence, abortion is in fact preferable, since a person who is likely to go to Hell ends up in Heaven.

Right, if you replace Catholic moral theology with utilitarianism then it no longer condemns abortion.

Pfft, you make it sound like catholics don't' change their minds. At least utilitarianism is consistent.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:47 am UTC

sardia wrote:They had that story in one of the early renditions of Christianity before they coalesced into a single group. They threw out the "Judas is a secret agent/hero" storyline in favor of the version we had now.


You mean The Gospel of Judas Iscariot?

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:45 am UTC

Probably, it aired on the history channel a long time ago. Oh tv, how I don't miss you.

What was wrong with secret agent Judas anyway? Secret agents are cool.

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Re: Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

Postby Green9090 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:51 am UTC

sardia wrote:Probably, it aired on the history channel a long time ago. Oh tv, how I don't miss you.

What was wrong with secret agent Judas anyway? Secret agents are cool.

He said abortions were okay so they had to discredit him.
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